umairfoo • Jul 24, 2002 11:14 am
More photos of the bombing here:
"Murder in Gaza"
http://palestinechronicle.com/article.php?story=20020722222400636
"Gaza Mourns Its Dead"
http://palestinechronicle.com/article.php?story=20020723150917733
<b>terrorism</b>
n : the systematic use of violence as a means to intimidate or coerce societies or governments
Originally posted by umairfoo
there is such thing as state terrorism.....and forgive me for daring to show a palestinian civilian casualty. only israeli civilians die by terrorism. maybe that is why 700 israelis and a paltry 1800 palestinians have died?

Originally posted by umairfoo
the majority of palestinian deaths occur when israeli soldiers are bored and decide to shoot at innocents walking the streets or those trying to get to a hospital.
Originally posted by dhamsaic
Fine. We can do semantics.
Show me Hamas' statement reading "We regret the loss" when referring to the innocent Israelis killed in a suicide bombing.
Originally posted by dhamsaic
This is false. The majority of Palestinian deaths occur when the IDF begins an operation to curb militancy and, in the process of eliminating extremists, kills civilians.
I would be very interested to see <b>one</b> incident where an Israeli soldier was bored and shot an innocent Palestinian walking the streets - without being provoked. So let's see your sources. I want names.
Originally posted by umairfoo
apparently, you haven't gotten my original point or read it well-enough...
israel's image, in the eyes of americans, is squeeky clean for the most part.
what does hamas have to regret?
Originally posted by Undertoad
I guess they could all be biased. But don't you think at least the French would have something on it?
Originally posted by Xugumad
And by the way: I would be very interested to see one incident where an Israeli soldier was bored and shot an innocent Palestinian walking the streets - without being provoked. So let's see your sources. I want names.(dhamsaic)
Unfortunately, I can easily provide that:
http://jerusalem.indymedia.org/news/2002/07/59092.php
http://www.palestinemonitor.org/updates/update_archives.htm
The recent event, in which civilians were out in a market, and an Israeli tank fired a warning shot into their midst, killing several, ought to be sufficient for you?
By the way - resorting to cheap racial slang in order to imply that the previous poster may have been racially motivated, or in order to get some sort of emotional reaction out of him, was pretty damn low, dhamsaic. (Ah, yes. I see. It's okay to kill a couple of those dirty zionist kikes.) Your intention may have been that of irony, but it was fairly obvious flamebait.
Do you have to stoop to that, seeing how Israel is about to implement Apartheid-like laws regarding land ownership, etc, limiting it to Jews only?
Originally posted by dhamsaic
Heh. Spare me the bullshit. First of all, your "but it was fairly obvious flamebait" directly follows "your intention may have been that of irony". How can you have it both ways?
Then we can get into your assumption that it actually was "obvious flamebait". For it to have been flamebait, it must have been my intention to draw flames. Which it wasn't. I use strong words.
I employ racial slang to convey the dehumanization that one side feels for another
If you don't pick up on it, that's fine - but you are labeling it out of a gross ignorance on your part.
How about you ask me what I mean next time?
Originally posted by dhamsaic
However, I definitely would like to see something more than a single person giving their story.
Even taking that into account, I still seriously doubt that you can support your assertion that a majority of Palestinian deaths are caused by this. Again, you're welcome to prove me wrong.
Ah, yes. I see. It's okay to kill a couple of those dirty zionist kikes. Of course, heaven forbid that a Palestinian be killed.
You have to treat the murder of civilians equally, no matter what side they're on. If it's okay for Israeli civilians to be killed then it's okay for Palestinian civilians to be killed too.
Regarding 'bored' soldiers; you know fairly well that it is close to impossible to get an Israeli soldier to admit that he killed anyone out of boredom, about the same way that it'd be difficult to get any, say, US soldier to admit that he raped any Vietnamese village girls 'because he was horny.'
The evidence that I provided is only a fraction of what is out there. It comes from a report written by B'Tselem, an Israeli group.
The fact that this evidence surprises you speaks volumes about your exposure to media other than american or possibly israeli. Truth is still truth whether one wishes to see it or not. It is your choice.
When I said Hamas has nothing to regret, it has nothing to regret in terms of its IMAGE being harmed, since it is considered a terrorist group anyway. It also does not regret killing civilians, though it should. When Israel says it has regret, it has regret for its IMAGE being harmed. It DOES NOT have regret for the civilians killed, just as Hamas doesn't.
Your intentions are irrelevant, the outcome is all that matters
I am happy to admit my mistake. It wasn't flamebait, it was a troll. Trolls are intended to cause strong responses, sometimes badly-worded ones, focusing on your writing style and phrasing, rather than content.
I understand that you were referring to the immediate quotation of what does hamas have to regret? (by umairfoo), but your phrasing is easy to attribute, opinion-wise, to the poster you were replying to.
Maybe less and less people will care about what you mean when your message is clad in a torrent of sound and fury, fucks here, kikes there, niggers everywhere, supposed humour, lack of perspective, and apparently one-sided indifference to human plight and suffering.
This was straight in response to your own posting, however. I'm not going to sit here and label my conversational partners grossly ignorant, or too fucking stupid to understand what I'm saying. In the end, there's little point to ad hominem attacks.
But if you trail through all of the given examples, there will be at least a couple that don't seem to follow any logical pattern, or implementing reasonable laws. Take some time to do so, and you will (hopefully) see for yourself.
Originally posted by umairfoo
It comes from a report written by B'Tselem, an Israeli group.
As with all criticism of Israel, the argument ends with the criticizer being labeled an Anti-Semite, which is what dhamsaic has virtually called me. Criticize Israel, automatically you are an anti-semite.
It also does not regret killing civilians, though it should.
Under your definition of terrorism, Israel is guilty as charged for using violence as a means to intimidate palestinian society.
Originally posted by Xugumad
To umairfoo, and others who may be somewhat frustrated with this 'discussion': It has become obvious that even overwhelming factual (nay, statistical :) ) evidence doesn't really help; at best, it results in people assuming a 'I'm taking my toys and going home; screw you guys!' stance. At worst, it results in ad hominem attacks and insults.
Apparently, the approach of US mainstream media has succeeded: not to intentionally distort the reality of the middle east conflict, but to provide a view that fits in with the 'accepted' reality profile propagated by mainstream culture.
Besides, attempting to show people another side of the argument when it rapidly becomes obvious that they hold .. certain 'truths' to be .. inviolable, well...
http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=439
There. That's the number I was looking for. Was that so hard? Hell, it's even pro-Palestinian, sorta.
What I want to know is why these gents with their vast intelligence and enlightened and correct perspective could only get me the distorted number... twice. [/B]
Originally posted by UndertoadA key element of the Palestinian strategy is to conceal combatants within the civilian population, and then to indiscriminantly attack noncombatant civilians. Then when an attempt is made to counter attack, they cry "genocide". The distinction between combatants and non combatants is made only when it is useful for propaganda purposes.
But this is the first source I've seen that tries to separate out the numbers of combatants vs. non-combatants.
Originally posted by umairfoo
what does hamas have to regret? their image is tarnished anyway. israel's image, in the eyes of americans, is squeeky clean for the most part.
Originally posted by jaguar
There will be blood on the streets of Tel Aviv and no sympathy here.
Originally posted by sycamore
I assume this is yours, jag?
