Finger pointing at its best ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5tZc8oH--o

If this is the fault of the democrats from a law passed 13 years ago, why didn't the current administration do anything about this for 8 years?:eyebrow:

The Clinton Administration started it, the Bush Administration compounded the problem. Its pointless to blame one or the other - politicians are the problem.

I find it hard to believe that the evil conservative elitist republicans were out there touting the "everyone should own a home" - sounds much more like a leftist democratic mantra to me. Bushithead just made it worse.

Heh.

"This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by Warner Music Group "

Now THAT sounds like a conspiracy theory..... I wonder who knows who at WMG - certainly not GWB.

classicman;487443 wrote:

The Clinton Administration started it, the Bush Administration compounded the problem. Its pointless to blame one or the other - politicians are the problem.

I find it hard to believe that the evil conservative elitist republicans were out there touting the "everyone should own a home" - sounds much more like a leftist democratic mantra to me. Bushithead just made it worse.

I agree that both parties are equally to blame. But what the "evil" Republicans were most likely shouting was, "Here's a way to make a quick buck for me. Too bad if it doesn't work out for you."

SamIam;488019 wrote:

I agree that both parties are equally to blame. But what the "evil" Republicans were most likely shouting was, "Here's a way to make a quick buck for me. Too bad if it doesn't work out for you."

If every single democrat voted for it, it would have passed by simple majority. There is enough of a shit sandwhich for all parties involved to have a bite. Pelosi didn't help things with her speech and she should have saved it till after the final vote. So they have the majority, they own the most of it IMHO. 94 Democrats said no.

But if you look deep into the history of what got us here there is not a single party that is responsible for the mess. If you look at how the vote came out you can see that there were almost as many that voted for it as voted against it in both parties collectively.

Obama continues to blame the current financial crisis on “deregulation”. Either Obama knows that claim to be false or he is ignorant of how this crisis evolved:

The path to our current cirisis started with these steps;

Step 1). Mortgage Underwriting standards were lowered - begining in the early 1990’s. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,424945,00.html

The Federal Reserve’s Board of Governor’s created a new set of standards to govern Mortgage Lending practices. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,424945,00.html

The Federal Reserve’s involvement in creating this problem gives one reason to question if the Public should trust the Federal Reserve to oversee the proposed bailout.

The lowered standards minimized the importance of a borrowers Credit History, Downpayment, Job History or Income. These “tried and true” criteria were called “outdated”. The Boston Federal Reserve created a Manual outling the ”new criteria” in 1992. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,424945,00.html

These rules were “pushed” by Fannie Mae to the extreme. Those who co-operated were rewarded.

One lender singled out by Fannie Mae for special praise for following these new criteria was Countrywide:

continues:

http://mcauleysworld.wordpress.com/2008/09/22/obama-deregulation-caused-this-crisis-an-ignorant-claim-or-political-spin/

Any particular politicians "in the pockets" of Countrywide.

We all know that 85% of problems are caused by - TOP - management, so this young lad knows just where to point.

[ATTACH]19588[/ATTACH]

And don't we all agree with him.

lol - seriously though - If the dems are gonna blame this on the reps and vice versa....lets track the money and see who got what and from whom. I know there was/is an adviser to McCain who was related to the Freddie Fannie deal. Now I hear rumors about Obama's people being connected to Countrywide.

Here is another one of "those emails"

Body count. In the last six months 292 killed (murdered) in Chicago, 221 killed in Iraq.

Sens. Barack Obama & Dick Durbin, Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr., Gov. Rod Blogojevich, House leader Mike Madigan, Atty. Gen. Lisa Madigan, Mayor Richard Daley...our leadership in Illinois...all Democrats. Thank you for the combat zone in Chicago. Of course they're all blaming each other. Can't blame Republicans, as there aren't any!

State pension fund $44 Billion in debt, worst in country. Cook County ( Chicago) sales tax 10.25% highest in country. (Look 'em up if you want). Chicago school system one of the worst in country. This is the political culture that Obama comes from in Illinois. He's gonna 'fix' Washington politics?

Greed drives all these markets. Selling the American dream has always made a fast buck or two........Even to people that we have decided to boot out.

What about those we are about to elect in?

classicman;488091 wrote:

lol - seriously though - If the dems are gonna blame this on the reps and vice versa....lets track the money and see who got what and from whom. I know there was/is an adviser to McCain who was related to the Freddie Fannie deal. Now I hear rumors about Obama's people being connected to Countrywide.

Yea, actually I believe that Obama got more money from Fredd and Fanny than McCain did.

Obama number 2 on the list.... McCain number 63 on the list

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2008/09/update-fannie-mae-and-freddie.html

Got this one emailed to me from a client

The Obama Ayers Relationship

In 1995, During Obama's First State Senate Campaign, William Ayers And Wife Bernadine Dohrn Hosted A Meeting Of Chicago Liberals At Their Home For Obama, Which One Attendee Said Was Aimed At "Launching Him." "In 1995, State Senator Alice Palmer introduced her chosen successor, Barack Obama, to a few of the district's influential liberals at the home of two well known figures on the local left: William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn. While Ayers and Dohrn may be thought of in Hyde Park as local activists, they're better known nationally as two of the most notorious -- and unrepentant -- figures from the violent fringe of the 1960s anti-war movement. ... 'I can remember being one of a small group of people who came to Bill Ayers' house to learn that Alice Palmer was stepping down from the senate and running for Congress,' said Dr. Quentin Young, a prominent Chicago physician and advocate for single-payer health care, of the info rmal gathering at the home of Ayers and his wife, Dohrn. '[Palmer] identified [Obama] as her successor.' ... Dr. Young and another guest, Maria Warren, described it similarly: as an introduction to Hyde Park liberals of the handpicked successor to Palmer, a well-regarded figure on the left. 'When I first met Barack Obama, he was giving a standard, innocuous little talk in the living room of those two legends-in-their-own-minds, Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn,' Warren wrote on her blog in 2005. 'They were launching him -- introducing him to the Hyde Park community as the best thing since sliced bread.'" (Ben Smith, "Obama Once Visited '60s Radicals," The Politico, 1/22/08)

From March Of 1995 Until September Of 1997, Obama And Ayers Attended At Least Seven Meetings Together Relating To The Chicago Annenberg Challenge. (Chicago Annenberg Challenge, Board Of Directors Meeting, Minutes Of The Board, 3/15/95, 3/31/95, 4/13/95, 6/5/95, 9/30/97; National Annenberg Challenge Evaluation Meeting, List Of Participants, 5/24/95; Chicago Annenberg Challenge, Chicago School Reform Collaborative Meeting, Minutes, 10/23/96)

* NOTE: Bill Ayers Was Asked To Help Obama Formulate The Chicago Annenberg Challenge By-Laws. (Chicago Annenberg Challenge Board Of Directors Minutes, 3/15/95)

In 1997, Obama Praised Ayers' Book On The Juvenile Justice System. "The two men were involved in efforts to reform the city's education system. They appeared together on academic panels, including one organized by Michelle Obama to discuss the juvenile justice system, an area of mutual concern. Mr. Ayers's book on the subject won a rave review in The Chicago Tribune by Mr. Obama, who called it 'a searing and timely account.'" (Jo Becker and Christopher Drew, "Pragmatic Politics, Forged On The South Side," The New York Times, 5/11/08)

* During The Time Obama And Ayers Served Together On The Woods Fund, Ayers Was Quoted Saying "I Don't Regret Setting Bombs ... I Feel We Didn't Do Enough." "'I don't regret setting bombs,' Bill Ayers said. 'I feel we didn't do enough.' Mr. Ayers, who spent the 1970's as a fugitive in the Weather Underground, was sitting in the kitchen of his big turn-of-the-19th-century stone house in the Hyde Park district of Chicago." (Dinitia Smith, "No Regrets For A Love Of Explosives," The New York Times, 9/11/01)

* NOTE: Obama, Born August 14th, 1961, Was 40 Years Old When Ayers Was Quoted. (Obama For America Website, www.barackobama.com, Accessed 10/6/08; Dinitia Smith, "No Regrets For A Love Of Explosives," The New York Times, 9/11/01)

Obama And Ayers Are Neighbors In Chicago's Hyde Park Neighborhood. "Twenty-six years later, at a lunchtime meeting about school reform in a Chicago skyscraper, Barack Obama met Mr. Ayers, by then an education professor. Their paths have crossed sporadically since then, at a coffee Mr. Ayers hosted for Mr. Obama's first run for office, on the schools project and a charitable board, and in casual encounters as Hyde Park neighbors." (Scott Shane, "Obama And '60s Bomber: A Look Into Crossed Paths," The New York Times, 10/4/08)

* Obama Spokesman Ben LaBolt Told The New York Times That Last Year Obama And Ayers "Bumped Into Each Other On The Street In Hyde Park." "[Obama spokesman Ben LaBolt] said they have not spoken by phone or exchanged e-mail messages since Mr. Obama began serving in the United States Senate in January 2005 and last met more than a year ago when they bumped into each other on the street in Hyde Park." (Scott Shane, "Obama And '60s Bomber: A Look Into Crossed Paths," The New York Times, 10/4/08)

* Neighbors Have Said "It's Only Natural" That Obama Would Know Ayers, Who Often Opens His Home For Gatherings, As Obama And His Wife "Are A Part Of Our Neighborhood And Part Of Our Social Circle." "Since coming out of hiding in 1980, the couple have raised three boys in Chicago and become part of the fabric of their liberal South Side neighborhood. Neighbors said it's only natural that Obama would know Ayers and Dohrn, who often open their homes for gatherings filled with lively discussions about politics, arts and social issues. Obama and his wife 'are part of our neighborhood and part of our social circle,' said Elizabeth Chandler, a neighbor of Ayers'." (Trevor Jensen, Robert Mitchum and Mary Owen, "Bill Ayers' Turbulent Past Contrasts With Quiet Academ ic Life," Chicago Tribune, 4/17/08)

Ayers' Organization, The Weather Underground, Was A "Violent Left-Wing Activist Group":

"William Ayers ... [Was] A Founding Member Of The Group That Bombed The U.S. Capitol And The Pentagon During The 1970s." (Russell Berman, "Obama's Ties To Left Come Under Scrutiny," The New York Sun, 2/19/08)

* Ayers' Group, The Weather Underground, Is A "Violent Left-Wing Activist Group." "Senator Obama's ties to a former leader of the violent left-wing activist group the Weather Underground are drawing new scrutiny as he battles Senator Clinton for the Democratic presidential nomination." (Russell Berman, "Obama's Ties To Left Come Under Scrutiny," The New York Sun, 2/19/08)

The Weather Underground Produced A Manual Which Begins, "We Are A Guerrilla Organization. We Are Communist Women And Men, Underground In The United States For More Than Four Years." "The coalition was said to be a violence-prone faction inspired by the Weather Underground's ''Prairie Fire,'' a guerrilla warfare manual published in 1974. The manual begins, 'We are a guerrilla organization. We are Communist women and men, underground in the United States for more than four years.'" (Paul L. Montgomery, "2 Women In Brink's Case Identified With Weathermen From Start In '69," The New York Times, 10/ 22/81)

I guess hanging around this guy is an example of "good judgment"

OMG

Classic is regurgitating the current GOP campaign strategy play-by-play.

Fact check

Instead of recycling this same old stuff, convince me that McCain is a better man and has got a better plan.

Pico and ME;490785 wrote:

OMG

Classic is regurgitating the current GOP campaign strategy play-by-play.

but he's a moderate. He said so.

Nice angle, aint it.

He's a maverick moderate. He goes against the moderate grain!

classicman;490760 wrote:

I guess hanging around this guy is an example of "good judgment"

Pico and ME;490785 wrote:

OMG

Classic is regurgitating the current GOP campaign strategy play-by-play.

glatt;490796 wrote:

but he's a moderate. He said so.

Happy Monkey;490807 wrote:

He's a maverick moderate. He goes against the moderate grain!

I disagree.

I think classicman is uncritically posting a lot of information he's being exposed to. He's being neutral (ish) in his receptive stance, but...

*BUT*

The content of what's coming across his field of view is strongly slanted in favor of the writer/sender/etc. LOTS of that kind of traffic these days. I get the sense that he's trying to sort truth from fiction. What I don't see is much of an internal sense of what's real and what's not. And the little I have seen does seem to have a republican tilt to it.

I can't say if this is because this is how he's wired politically or if it is just what he's relaying to teh cellar. I don't know.

Very sensible perspective BigV.

BigV;490871 wrote:

I disagree.

I think classicman is uncritically posting a lot of information he's being exposed to. He's being neutral (ish) in his receptive stance, but...

*BUT*

The content of what's coming across his field of view is strongly slanted in favor of the writer/sender/etc. LOTS of that kind of traffic these days. I get the sense that he's trying to sort truth from fiction. What I don't see is much of an internal sense of what's real and what's not. And the little I have seen does seem to have a republican tilt to it.

I can't say if this is because this is how he's wired politically or if it is just what he's relaying to teh cellar. I don't know.

You sound like my brother, who is 60, you are making excuses for the other camp as to why they disagree with you and why the other guy is wrong and you are right. Poppycock.

TheMercenary;490927 wrote:

You sound like my brother, who is 60, you are making excuses for the other camp as to why they disagree with you and why the other guy is wrong and you are right. Poppycock.

What? Seriously. What?

He said horse-pucky!! :)

My view is not slanted one way or the other, however I find that the majority here IS slanted one way and I am trying to find some information from neither of the extremes. I find it interesting that it appears to be "strongly slanted" in one direction.
I find it also interesting that anything posted here lately which isn't pro Obama is met with instant and strong disapproval and assumed to have a "republican slant."

I am a moderate and as I have repeatedly said [AND chastised for] I am not pro one or the other, but the overwhelming views of the cellar seems to have become an extension of one party and very biased.

BigV;490871 wrote:

I disagree.

I think classicman is uncritically posting a lot of information he's being exposed to. He's being neutral (ish) in his receptive stance, but...

*BUT*

The content of what's coming across his field of view is strongly slanted in favor of the writer/sender/etc. LOTS of that kind of traffic these days. I get the sense that he's trying to sort truth from fiction. What I don't see is much of an internal sense of what's real and what's not. And the little I have seen does seem to have a republican tilt to it.

I can't say if this is because this is how he's wired politically or if it is just what he's relaying to teh cellar. I don't know.

Perhaps from as far left as many of you seem to be everything I post seems to have a republican slant. Funny how when I talk to conservatives they all think my opinions have a liberal slant.
Thanks BigV at least you seem open minded enough to see where I am coming from - unlike so many others here. It must be so easy to just say anything from the other party is bad and tow the line. When you are in the middle you don't really have that luxury. I'm sorry that I'm not the best writer or communicator folks - I'm just sorting through all this as best I can to make an informed decision.

classicman;490760 wrote:

I guess hanging around this guy is an example of "good judgment"

This guy was awarded the Citizen of the Year in 1997 by Chicago. Mayor Richard Daley called him "a valued member of the Chicago community."

From dar's link...

Whatever his past, Ayers is now a respected member of the Chicago intelligentsia, and still a member of the Woods Fund Board. The president of the Woods Fund, Deborah Harrington, said he had been selected for the board because of his solid academic credentials and "passion for social justice."

Obama doesn't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. ;)

But I think the majority here is slanted in one way, in this election, because the majority of people have lived through the past few years, and have made an informed decision as to which side they plan to land on, in November.

To attribute the slant you see here to individuals regurgitating views based on nothing other than party lines is, in my opinion, a grand underestimation of the intelligence and (mostly) open-mindedness of a large number of Dwellars. I really don't think everyone is towing the party line, as you say...I think most of us are just plain fed up with the status quo.

Pico and ME;491024 wrote:

This guy was awarded the Citizen of the Year in 1997 by Chicago. Mayor Richard Daley called him "a valued member of the Chicago community."

Sens. Barack Obama & Dick Durbin, Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr., Gov. Rod Blogojevich, House leader Mike Madigan, Atty. Gen. Lisa Madigan, Mayor Richard Daley...our leadership in Illinois...all Democrats.
State pension fund $44 Billion in debt, worst in country. Cook County ( Chicago) sales tax 10.25% highest in country. (Look 'em up if you want). Chicago school system one of the worst in country. This is the political culture that Obama comes from in Illinois.

Shawnee123;491053 wrote:

To attribute the slant you see here to individuals regurgitating views based on nothing other than party lines is, in my opinion, a grand underestimation of the intelligence and (mostly) open-mindedness of a large number of Dwellars.

I really don't think everyone is towing the party line, as you say...I think most of us are just plain fed up with the status quo.

I thought so too - not so sure lately though.

Therein lies a great deal of my frustration. That makes very little sense to me - the current "status quo" is as much if not more Obama's fault as it is McCain's.

I don't have that frustration because I don't see it that way. That doesn't mean I'm right (but I am...jk) but to me the difference is clear. To me, the difference is SO clear that it's hard for me to imagine that anyone who isn't a strict party line person can see it any other way.

But now I better understand where you're coming from, so that's good. :)

Shawnee123;491063 wrote:

To me, the difference is SO clear that it's hard for me to imagine that anyone who isn't a strict party line person can see it any other way.

Yup - their differences are very clear. I agree with each of them on some things - that is the difference between me and many of you. I am not as far left as many of you, nor am I as far right.

What it is that makes either of these guys worthy of my vote?
On the left we have Obama, who has accomplished what? What has he done - Really?

On the right we have McCain who has a looooooong history and has fought for our country - been a POW... so???? What does all that really mean? Does that make him more qualified - I dunno, but I still don't agree with a lot of what he says.

So I'm left again/still with experience vs idealism.

Thanks. All this time I thought it was "toe the line."

It is.

Now Shawnee's thinking"... love isn't always on time."

dar512;490788 wrote:

Instead of recycling this same old stuff, convince me that McCain is a better man and has got a better plan.

I'm not recycling shit. I am trying to make a decision. Everything here is so slanted toward one side, its sickening. It seems to me that many of you all are simply voting against Bush as much as for Obama. Sounds to me like you are the one recycling a party line.

Lets turn your question back on you, since your mind is made up - YOU tell me why Obama is the better man. Better yet - put the two side by side and list all their accomplishments, stances, associations and so on...

Classic, from your posts its looks like your mind is made up too. You may not be sure you like McCain, but you really give off the appearance that you DON'T want Obama in the White House. I'm the same way. I don't know if I trust Obama to actually implement his 'change' policy, but I KNOW I don't want McCain (because he, in my mind, WILL BE more of the same).

Pico and ME;491093 wrote:

Classic, from your posts its looks like your mind is made up too. You may not be sure you like McCain, but you really give off the appearance that you DON'T want Obama in the White House. I'm the same way. I don't know if I trust Obama can to actually implement his 'change' policy, but I KNOW I don't want McCain (because he, in my mind, WILL BE more of the same).

Good grief - why would I bother with all this if my mind was made up?

Why would I want Obama? What has he done? Same with McCain.
Hmm, so I was correct in my assumption that its more of a vote against Bush than it is for Obama. Thanks for your honesty.

There's just not enough humor in these political threads.

Classic, the way I see it, McCain IS Bush. He sold his soul to Team Bush a while ago in order to have this chance at the presidency.

Every vote is a vote against someone. None of us are running down the street with signs that read: The end is nigh, unless you vote for Obama, our savior and lord.

He's not McCain. He isn't Bush's lap dog. He doesn't claim to be a "maverick" after all those years of pushing the Bush agenda. He actually gives a crap about the middle class, not just the fat cats and the baby-poppin' welfare moms (McCain's proposed tax benefits implicitly state more money "per child" which, if you've seen as many tax forms as I've seen, is ridiculous.)

With all due respect to McCain, because I don't think he's quite evil like Bush and I respect his service, he is very much like Bush. To pretend to be some maverick rabble-rousin' Yosemite Sam who is going to go in and put the smack down on evil Washington, after 26 years, is so completely ridiculous I have to laugh.

Obama is smart. Obama is fresh. Obama has served with class and dignity. Obama is not in the pocket of big oil.

HungLikeJesus;491086 wrote:

Now Shawnee's thinking"... love isn't always on time."

On time? The f*cker ain't even showing UP!

classicman wrote:

Cook County ( Chicago) sales tax 10.25% highest in country.

Paired with one of the lowest state income taxes in the country. You gotta look for the whole picture.

classicman;491087 wrote:

put the two side by side and list all their accomplishments, stances, associations and so on...

Pico and ME;491101 wrote:

McCain IS Bush. He sold his soul to Team Bush a while ago in order to have this chance at the presidency.

That pretty much is the party mantra. thats fine. valid opinion.

Shawnee123;491104 wrote:

He's not McCain.
He isn't Bush's lap dog.
He actually gives a crap about the middle class, not just the fat cats and the baby-poppin' welfare moms
Obama is smart.
Obama is fresh.
Obama has served with class and dignity.
Obama is not in the pocket of big oil.

Ok thats a start - I'll keep a running tally.

Clodfobble;491113 wrote:

Paired with one of the lowest state income taxes in the country. You gotta look for the whole picture.

Thank you Clod - thats exactly what I'm trying to do.

[QUOTE=classicman;491126]That pretty much is the party mantra. thats fine. valid opinion.[QUOTE]

Yes, but it's been my opinion before it became part of Obamas's campaign strategy. McCain has been Bush's cheerleader for a long time now.

Twice, I couldn't decide who would be best for the country, so I voted for the guy that I thought would do best for me personally. Both choices turned into BIG regrets. Nixon & Bush. I'm convinced McCain would be the third. :o

Clearly the big immediate issue is the economy. I'm not convinced that one of them is better equipped than the other to do anything about it, but Obama has tapped into a bunch of the old Clinton economic advisers, and I think Clinton did a great job managing the economy. So that makes me lean toward Obama when it comes to the economy. I like Obama's talk about the middle class being important. I'm not sure he can do anything for us, but at least he's talking about it. I honestly believe McCain will continue on the path of rewarding corporations. So on the economy, I'm solidly behind Obama.

I think the most important issue facing us today is the energy issue. I think the correct approach on energy is to develop as many alternative sources as possible and to try our best to minimize our dependence on foreign oil. Because coal and oil are raising the temperature of the planet, I think we should get as far away from them as possible. I think we should dramatically expand nuclear energy, and also expand wind, solar, biomass, tidal, geothermal, and anything else that makes sense. We should also use a carrot and stick approach to reduce consumption.

I think McCain is only paying lip service to alternative energy. The "Drill, baby. Drill!" chants show where he really stands, but I think he also genuinely wants to increase nuclear energy, which I like.

I think Obama really is serious about alternative energy and is only paying lip service to nuclear. He's saying drilling isn't the answer. I haven't heard either of them talk about reducing consumption.

Neither one of them has any executive experience. The only thing they have run are their campaigns. I think Obama has done an outstanding job running his campaign organization. I think McCain has been reckless and impulsive in many of his moves.

McCain used to be able to legitimately claim he is a maverick, but he can't claim that anymore. He's sucked up to Bush to get to this point. Obama has never pretended to be a maverick. Both McCain and Obama are partisan.

I honestly believe that George W. Bush is a miserable failure. He's the worst president in our country's history. McCain is tied closely to Bush, as much as he likes to say he's a maverick. Obama would make the pendulum swing back in the other direction. It might not be the direction that I agree with completely, but it's close enough. I'm voting for Obama in large part because I don't like Bush.

If McCain is elected, I think we will be better off than we are under Bush, but I think we'll be even better off under Obama.

xoxoxoBruce;491143 wrote:

Twice, I couldn't decide who would be best for the country, so I voted for the guy that I thought would do best for me personally. Both choices turned into BIG regrets. Nixon & Bush. I'm convinced McCain would be the third. :o

One Bush one time, Two Bushes twice, or two bushes three times? :rolleyes:

Nixon & W. :(

Dub TWICE?

heheeeeeheehe

You can still be sent back to your old job.:eyebrow:

Eeeeek.

See, I still keep thinking they're going to try to hold me to contract or something!

I'll be good, I promise! (bats eyes and looks innocent)

You'd better, I'd hate to have to beat down someone as cute as you are. ;)

snicker snicker...I can't wait to thank my best friend for letting me use her picture.

:lol:

Three times.

THNORT!

Here's some fact checkin':

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/category/fact-check/

classicman;491087 wrote:

I'm not recycling shit. I am trying to make a decision. Everything here is so slanted toward one side, its sickening. It seems to me that many of you all are simply voting against Bush as much as for Obama. Sounds to me like you are the one recycling a party line.

Lets turn your question back on you, since your mind is made up - YOU tell me why Obama is the better man. Better yet - put the two side by side and list all their accomplishments, stances, associations and so on...

You are correct in that at least part of my hesitation to vote for McCain comes from the fact the he's of the same party as Bush.

He uses the term maverick a lot in order to distance himself from Bush, but I haven't heard anything from him that gives me a warm fuzzy that he really is substantively different.

I have three huge issues with the current administration.
1) We have focused military attention on Iraq, which should never have been done. If we hadn't been distracted by Iraq, I bet we'd have Osama by now.
2) Attempts to grow the influence of the administrative branch of the government. See Palin's verbiage from the VP debate on the importance of the VP role.
3) The de facto reduction in the rights of citizens. I don't want the government to have the right to spy on me without severe limitations in place.

I haven't heard anything from the Rs to make me believe that these things would change under McCain. In fact I was surprised that Palin was so bold in her discussion of enlarging the role of the VP.

So I started out leaning Dem.

Then came the olympics where the Obama ads talked about building a hopeful future and the McCain ads talked about how bad Obama is. This had a very negative influence on me against McCain. I may be naive, but I believe in how these things should be done. And mud-slinging pisses me off.

Not long after that was the Obama_as_celebrity ad -- more fuel on the fire.

This caused me to take a closer look at Obama. I like the fact that he's got a poly-sci degree. I like the fact that he is promoting a positive position as opposed to fear.

I like that he intends to get us out of Iraq as soon as possible.

I like the fact that he's for greater oversight of the finance sector. I don't believe that large corporations act in the best interest of the public and that some independent oversight is needed.

I think that too many breaks have been given to the wealthy and the large corporations and I like that Obama is at least talking a good game in this area.

I'm concerned about both party's plans for health care, so I think that's a wash.

I don't think McCain is the debbil, but I think we need more of a change than his cards are showing.

I don't think Obama is a saint, but I see him as the lesser of two evils.

Holy shit, this is tw length. But you did ask.

Ahem, dar...good post but your freudian slip is showing.

Shawnee123;491231 wrote:

Ahem, dar...good post but your freudian slip is showing.

It's a long post. Give me a hint.

Osama, not Obama

Thank you.

Fixed.

glatt;491249 wrote:

Osama, not Obama

lol - ya gotta admit that was pretty funny.

Put the two side by side and list all their accomplishments, stances, associations and so on...

Originally Posted by Shawnee123
He's not McCain.
He isn't Bush's lap dog.
He actually gives a crap about the middle class, not just the fat cats and the baby-poppin' welfare moms
Obama is smart.
Obama is fresh.
Obama has served with class and dignity.
Obama is not in the pocket of big oil.

dar512;491220 wrote:

You are correct in that at least part of my hesitation to vote for McCain comes from the fact the he's of the same party as Bush.

I started out leaning Dem.

I like the fact that he's got a poly-sci degree.
he is promoting a positive position.
he intends to get us out of Iraq as soon as possible.
he's for greater oversight of the finance sector.

Sigh...ok:

Originally Posted by Shawnee123
He's not McCain. [COLOR="Red"]McCain IS McCain[/COLOR]
He isn't Bush's lap dog. [COLOR="Red"]McCain is Bush's lap dog[/COLOR]
He actually gives a crap about the middle class, not just the fat cats and the baby-poppin' welfare moms [COLOR="red"]McCain doesn't actually gives a crap about the middle class, just the fat cats and the baby-poppin' welfare moms[/COLOR]
Obama is smart. [COLOR="red"]McCain isn't quite as smart[/COLOR]
Obama is fresh. [COLOR="red"]McCain is not fresh[/COLOR]
Obama has served with class and dignity. [COLOR="red"]McCain did serve our country with class and dignity...his campaign...not so much[/COLOR]
Obama is not in the pocket of big oil. [COLOR="red"]The entire Bushapalooza party is in the pocket of big oil[/COLOR]

Better? ;)

No not at all - I am trying to determine why to vote FOR one candidate vs the other - As in their positive attributes - experience, accomplishments and so on.

I'm very specifically NOT interested in that.

classicman;491267 wrote:

Put the two side by side and list all their accomplishments, stances, associations and so on...

You missed the thing about negative ads. That was a big deal for me.

No dar I got that - and it registered - Its just not what I'm looking for here - I want their abilities, what they've done, just the positives about them. I'm gonna do a negative thing separately - that'll probably be a much longer list.

I am looking down my nose and pointing my finger at you!!!That's the best!!:D

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Originally Posted by Shawnee123
He's not McCain.
He isn't Bush's lap dog.
He actually gives a crap about the middle class, not just the fat cats and the baby-poppin' welfare moms
Obama is smart.
Obama is fresh.
Obama has served with class and dignity.
Obama is not in the pocket of big oil.
Obama is running a positive campaign

Originally Posted by dar512 View Post
I like the fact that he's got a poly-sci degree.
he is promoting a positive position.
he intends to get us out of Iraq as soon as possible.
he's for greater oversight of the finance sector.

dar512;491220 wrote:

You are correct in that at least part of my hesitation to vote for McCain comes from the fact the he's of the same party as Bush.

He uses the term maverick a lot in order to distance himself from Bush, but I haven't heard anything from him that gives me a warm fuzzy that he really is substantively different.

I have three huge issues with the current administration.
1) We have focused military attention on Iraq, which should never have been done. If we hadn't been distracted by Iraq, I bet we'd have Osama by now.
2) Attempts to grow the influence of the administrative branch of the government. See Palin's verbiage from the VP debate on the importance of the VP role.
3) The de facto reduction in the rights of citizens. I don't want the government to have the right to spy on me without severe limitations in place.

I haven't heard anything from the Rs to make me believe that these things would change under McCain. In fact I was surprised that Palin was so bold in her discussion of enlarging the role of the VP.

So I started out leaning Dem.

Then came the olympics where the Obama ads talked about building a hopeful future and the McCain ads talked about how bad Obama is. This had a very negative influence on me against McCain. I may be naive, but I believe in how these things should be done. And mud-slinging pisses me off.

Not long after that was the Obama_as_celebrity ad -- more fuel on the fire.

This caused me to take a closer look at Obama. I like the fact that he's got a poly-sci degree. I like the fact that he is promoting a positive position as opposed to fear.

I like that he intends to get us out of Iraq as soon as possible.

I like the fact that he's for greater oversight of the finance sector. I don't believe that large corporations act in the best interest of the public and that some independent oversight is needed.

I think that too many breaks have been given to the wealthy and the large corporations and I like that Obama is at least talking a good game in this area.

I'm concerned about both party's plans for health care, so I think that's a wash.

I don't think McCain is the debbil, but I think we need more of a change than his cards are showing.

I don't think Obama is a saint, but I see him as the lesser of two evils.

Holy shit, this is tw length. But you did ask.

Good post dar!

merc - did you REALLY need to quote the WHOLE thing over again.. to say, good post?

NY Times token righty columnist David Brooks is quoted at Huffington Post, the first time that site has had something thoughtful to add to the debate (usually it specializes in empty snark):

Obama has the great intellect. I was interviewing Obama a couple years ago, and I'm getting nowhere with the interview, it's late in the night, he's on the phone, walking off the Senate floor, he's cranky. Out of the blue I say, 'Ever read a guy named Reinhold Niebuhr?' And he says, 'Yeah.' So i say, 'What did Niebuhr mean to you?' For the next 20 minutes, he gave me a perfect description of Reinhold Niebuhr's thought, which is a very subtle thought process based on the idea that you have to use power while it corrupts you. And I was dazzled, I felt the tingle up my knee as Chris Matthews would say.

And the other thing that does separate Obama from just a pure intellectual: he has tremendous powers of social perception. And this is why he's a politician, not an academic. A couple of years ago, I was writing columns attacking the Republican congress for spending too much money. And I throw in a few sentences attacking the Democrats to make myself feel better. And one morning I get an email from Obama saying, 'David, if you wanna attack us, fine, but you're only throwing in those sentences to make yourself feel better.' And it was a perfect description of what was going through my mind. And everybody who knows Obama all have these stories to tell about his capacity for social perception.

classicman;491305 wrote:

No dar I got that - and it registered - Its just not what I'm looking for here - I want their abilities, what they've done, just the positives about them. I'm gonna do a negative thing separately - that'll probably be a much longer list.

You have to read the tiny print at the bottom of the ad... Past results are not a guarantee of future performance, Your mileage may vary, Performed by a professional driver on a closed course, If an erection lasts more than 4 hours, call your doctor, etc.

Look for attitude, goals, honesty.

Yeh thats true xob, but there are no guarantees with this product and you usually don't know whether they did a good or bad job until they are gone. That 5-10 year lag. Look at Carter - He got elected on the whole "Change mantra" and that didn't work out so well.
I'm just gonna flip a coin and get this done - I originally wanted to mail in my absentee ballot this weekend.

Cicero;491346 wrote:

I am looking down my nose and pointing my finger at you!!!That's the best!!:D

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I wanna be looking down yer blouse. :lol2:

lol! I don't think you know why that's so funny.....but uh...Better luck next time.

Suckeer!!!

Cicero;492136 wrote:

lol! I don't think you know why that's so funny.....but uh...Better luck next time.

Suckeer!!!

I can only hope. Lean over a bit more will ya. :D

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