Elbows on the table
I chastised grandson for putting elbows on the table at a restaurant recently, and BDNo. 2 (who's into Questioning Authority) these days, said, why? and why do we have to follow customs we don't understand or don't have a purpose?
A very quick perusal of ze almighty interwebs suggests these possible reasons for the taboo:
--it's unhygienic to put body parts on the table
--you could tip over cups and bowls
--you could tip over the table
--it makes other diners feel crowded
--it's bad for your digestion
--shows you're focused only on the food and not the company
in other words . . . no one knows why. Or , all of the above.
yes, I know this is only loosely related to "Food and Drink" but what the hey
There are all sorts of table manners out there that have no logical explanation behind them but that have become accepted as "correct." In my opinion, the only reason to follow those particular manners would be to conform to what is considered "correct." Often in this life, conforming is very helpful, and the kids will be glad to know proper manners when they are older.
My wife and I have disagreements sometimes on how much to expect from our children when it comes to table manners. I generally agree with her that the kids should know what good table manners are, and the best way to do that is to practice them at home. But I also believe that one should be comfortable, and putting elbows on the table is a pretty minor thing.
I do things like put my elbows on the table. I also ignore the American custom of switching the fork and knife back and forth from hand to hand when cutting meat and putting the pieces in my mouth. I know it's "wrong" but don't care, because it's stupid. She wishes I would be a perfect example of manners in front of the kids.
Mostly I focus on things like making sure the kids sit on their bottoms and stay in their seats. Don't talk with full mouths. Don't over-reach for stuff. Etc. Although to be honest, I'm not always consistent with enforcing that.
Manners often have a purpose, but are sometimes just stupid and arbitrary.
Do you eat your peas off your knife?
I also ignore the American custom of switching the fork and knife back and forth from hand to hand when cutting meat and putting the pieces in my mouth.
I wasn't aware of that custom.
I wasn't aware of that custom.
It's very stupid.
The Zig Zag Method
By American custom, which was brought about partly by the late introduction of the fork into the culture, all three utensils are intended for use primarily with the right hand, which is the more capable hand for most people. This leads to some complicated maneuvering when foods, such as meat, require the use of knife and fork to obtain a bite of manageable size. When this is the case, the fork is held in the left hand, turned so that the tines point downward, the better to hold the meat in place while the right hand operates the knife. After a bite-sized piece has been cut, the diner sets the knife down on the plate and transfers the fork to the right hand, so that it can be used to carry the newly cut morsel to the mouth. Emily Post calls this the "zig-zag" style.
I've never heard of that one before.
I wasn't aware of that custom.
Really?
I've never seen it, but read about it lots. Bill Bryson mentions it for example...
I remember a friend coming round to dinner, leaning on one elbow and eating only with her fork. My Mum dismissed it as "that's what the
Americans do" as if she'd sunk about as low as she could go :) We were only about 11, so table manners were a big thing, and the way you behaved in front of other people's parents was a sign of respect - in this case a perceived lack of.
I've always been allowed my elbows on the table when relaxing and talking before and after the meal. Unless Nan was there. Then she'd bore us with stories of her strict Grnadmother who would whack them across the kuckles with her metal topped cane or say, "Joints on the table will be carved, cooked or not" while brandishing a carving knife! We never had elbows on the table while eating though.
I suppose it shows a slovenly attitude with is disrespectful both to company and to the cook.
it makes other diners feel crowded
This is the only one that counts in my book. We're often eating around a rather crowded table, and to usurp table space for your arms would mean physically encroaching on other people's space. But otherwise this is not one we even consider. We have a hard enough time getting the oldest to remember to chew with her mouth closed.
Knife? Fork? What are these things you speak of? :confused:
I don't see a problem with elbows if you're conversing before or after meal, as SG says. Leaning on one elbow and shoveling food from a fork into your mouth...ooooh, Dad would not have allowed that!
The zig zag thing: I have read a few things about the European style and American style. I actually try to do less of the zig zag because it is kind of silly when you think about it. I noticed my 6 year old niece eating like a European; I guess she hasn't been told the "custom" yet. I think custom is an odd choice of word for the practice. It's not like tribal leaders ('rents) stand at the head of the table, bless the food, and announce "now we shall commence with the ancient custom of our ancestors: switching the fork and knife. ahhhhhhhhhmennnnnnnnnnnnn."
I mean, we just do it. Everyone we see growing up does it. It's not really a tradition, or a ritual, or a custom. It's just aping.
My Equadorian friend has a different set of table rules, the most important of which is that you should never ever ever put your hands below the level of the table. Apparently it's a way of making sure that you don't get shot or stabbed by a fellow diner.
My Dad was pretty strict about that sort of thing. Fortunately Mum wasn't :P Between them they balanced each other out.
Elbows on the table bugs me, but I can't determine why, logically. Also, chewing with the mouth open...making that smacking noise...grosses me out for some reason. I am constantly reminding our kids to close their mouths. Reaching across the table is another one. slurping spaghetti...uuuurrrrg! I am to the point where I just cut it up into tiny bits before I give it to them.
Interesting discussion.
My Mom and Dad were pretty strict about it when we were growing up as well. Things went like this: Kids (5 of us) were responsible to set the table, usually fell on me or my sister as we were the youngest and more likely to be hanging about the kitchen when we were going to have dinner. You could not be late for dinner unless you had been formally excused from dinner or had written permission from the pope. No one would eat or serve til Dad and everyone else sat down and only after grace was said. Then things were passed, and always to the left only, never to the right. You never took the last helping without asking permission. You had to clean your plate of all food before you could leave the table and you could not leave until everyone finished or you would be in trouble. You did not leave the table unless you asked for permission, which was not always granted. No talking with food in your mouth. Zig-zag technique was mandatory, although it did not have a name back then, you just did it that way. All meat was to be cut into bite sized bits before eating. Shirts and shoes were required, no hats, no hats on in the house for that matter. No elbows on the table, "Elbows off the table Mable, this is not a horses stable". Use of the napkin was mandatory and in your lap when not in immediate use. No arguments at dinner. Dishwashing duty was rotated among all five by two's, one wash, one dryer/put awayer (no electric dishwashers). Anyone who failed to finish their food sat at the table for hours until said food was eaten. It was fairly strict. Things relaxed as more and more kids went off to college.
Dad was a Naval Officer and the High School Principal.
Us, not so strict. We are lucky to have a family meal as busy as kids are now days. As the kids are off and gone to college we do enjoy a sit down more now than before when they come home.
My family was never crazy about table manners. Then again, we rarely ate at the table. Meals were more of an "every man for himself" type of event, with each person eating whatever they wanted whenever they got hungry.
That said, elbows were usually okay on the table before or after you were eating, but not during. I do have have a habit of leaning my forearms on the edge of the table while I eat, though. Is that considered rude, as well?
What a revealing post.
It all changed significantly when I turned about 16. Three were gone from home, middle child moved back in at the age of 20 something because he pretty much failed at everything he tried. Dad was on his 3 job and drinking pretty heavily, mom was trying to hold things together, and I moved to another state to live with my brother as I was out of control at home and hanging out with the wrong crowd. Education was very important. Everyone was expected to go to college, everyone did, not everyone finished with a degree. Only me and the oldest brother went to college and in the military and both of us have advanced degrees. Somehow or another a month before HS graduation (after living with my brother for the last two years of HS) I changed my mind and did not join the Navy as an enlisted man but chose to go to college and get my degree. It was all up hill after that and 20 years later, in '02 I retired from the Army with an advanced degree and skill that gives me a healthy earning, with a life time of retirement pay.
Revelations abound!
Curious about "somehow or another..." Seems like that kind of MAJOR choice, or perhaps, minor choice with Major effects would be a big deal.
I know for me, entering college was like any other school transition. Like 13th grade. I had been indoctrinated since before I could resist that I would go to college. End of discussion. Actually, there wasn't and "discussion" at all. It was more like...a foregone conclusion.
I freely confess I repeated such indoctrination as a parent myself. Proud of it, too.
My wife has a thing about guys wearing hats inside. She especially looks down on guys who wear baseball hats to a diner, for example. I never used to notice it, but now I also see it when I go out to eat. It's rubbed off a bit on me.
When we see someone wearing a hat in a restaurant, my wife says, "Where's Tony Soprano when you need him?"
Just as long you don't put that hat on a bed, we'll all be fine.
Bob: Hats. Okay? Hats. If I ever see a hat on a bed in this house, man, like you'll never see me again. I'm gone.
Diane: That makes two of us.
Nadine: Why a hat?
Bob: Because that's just the way it is, sweetie.
If you sit on it would that make it an ass-hat and because you don't want to be one of those you avoid putting it where you can sit?
A bunch of these damn people had their elbows on the table. :mad:
But these chicks know how to do it right!
Was it just me or do all the people in the UK eat with the fork in the left hand points down and keep the knife in the right hand, because that is the way I remember it in HK and on my visits 2 years ago.
we had a whole thread about the knife and fork etiquette:
http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=14318&highlight=knife+fork
For me, I was always told that elbows on the table were okay
after you've finished. don't know why.
The one that gets me is the napkin. Put the napkin in your lap and use it to wipe your mouth. Not your hand, or your shirt, but the napkin. Is that so hard?
Merc, not sure my upbringing was too similar, but we had very formal meals always. My dad was a proper Southern gentlemen. We ate with sterling silver utensils, properly set out with a full place setting (no matter what we were eating) and cloth napkins at every meal. Later in life my mother persuaded dad that paper napkins were okay at lunch.
We never had any kind of informal meals like spaghetti or tacos for dinner. It was always meat, starch/vegetables, salad, bread and butter. And I had to eat every bite, or I'd get the Victory Garden story.
ETA: In my entire adult life, I don't think I've ever had a dining room table. And the silver is sitting in a closet. somewhere.
We did China and Silver only on an occassional Sunday or for every holiday, Christmas, Easter, and Thanksgiving.
We had two sets of silver and china; one for everyday and one for holidays. We had stainless steel flatware in the kitchen. I think.
In this household we wait until everyone is in front of the TV before starting the meal. It's just polite.
and no talking 'cept during the commercials!
it all boils down to a class thing:
upperclass people never eat ribs.
no! ribs are disgusting! all that gnawing on the bone . . . far too atavistic!
:headshake
When I was a kid, my parents were pretty strict about meal times. There were no elbows on the table (a rule I enforce with my own children) along with chew with your mouth closed. Don't talk with food in your mouth. You must eat everything on your plate even if it takes all night. There'd be no tv during dinner. Dinner was for talking about the days events and exchanging information. My brother and I were responsible for clearing the table and washing and drying the dishes. Mum used to come in later and put them away. Mostly Mum served our meals onto plates and then we'd all sit down together. On the weekends, we'd all have lunch together also. Mum would put out all the things she had for us in the way of salad stuff and condiments and then we'd make our own sandwiches. After that Mum would clear up and then I'd help her prepare dinner for whoever it was that happened to be joining us for dinner that night. Usually one of the other family groups from our extended family, but sometimes their 'card' friends.
I liked my parents rules for meal times. I've recently been thinking I should reinstate a few of them such as the no tv one. We have far too many meals where we all sit and watch telly instead of talking to each other. I also like the no elbows on the table rule, mostly because it does take up space which lots of times we don't have when we have family with us.
Oh...another one was keep your elbows tucked in. Again, to create space.
Case, I'm with you about the mouth noises. I can't stand them.
it all boils down to a class thing:
upperclass people never eat ribs.
Ribs were only eaten at picnics at the National Forest or the summer lake house vacation on Green Lake, WI.
Was it just me or do all the people in the UK eat with the fork in the left hand points down and keep the knife in the right hand, because that is the way I remember it in HK and on my visits 2 years ago.
Pretty much. Unless we're eating with just a fork....or a fork and spoon. I tend to use a knife and fork if there's anything to cut and just a fork if there isn't. If eating at the table I use a knife and fork in the way you described.
I noticed that I had my elbows on the table just the other day. Then I removed them. Then I thought, why? What? Just to have another rule that I don't understand, to follow? Do I have a good reason for not having my elbows there? Is anyone else going to notice how rude I am for having my elbows on the table?
Are my reasons valid for not having them on the table? Usually social rules make a little practical sense. But I am not sure about the elbow thing.
When I was young I was sawing a steak. My only regret after being chastised was not requesting a better cut of beef next time.
I do have have a habit of leaning my forearms on the edge of the table while I eat, though. Is that considered rude, as well?
Nope, that's legal.
ETA: In my entire adult life, I don't think I've ever had a dining room table.
What?:eek: Where do you put stuff that's in transit? Right now my dining room table has a role of masking tape, a battery charger, a pack of lightbulbs, a quart of two-cycle oil, and a new hat in a plastic bag.
I wasn't aware of that custom.
It's an internationally famous Americanism. You can tell the Americans across the restaurant by watching how they handle their forks. They never turn them over unless they've been learning Euro-style.
It's one way not to eat your meat in a big hurry so your brain's hunger center has time to catch up with your stomach, with salubrious results for the waistline.
Hats at the table, for gentlemen -- in cattle country -- there is one special case. While a baseball cap on the head at a meal would be counted as gauche in any setting, cowboy hats stayed on in public eateries, in part because a tengallon Stetson is a rather bulky item, and insisting on removing them creates the problem of where to park the things. Usually, the facilities available aren't up to the job. The most convenient parking spot is atop the cowboys' heads.
But I reckon they leave them off eating at home.
@ Bruce: on the floor, of course.
That would mean :o bending over.
My experience of mealtime ettiquette is pretty similar to Ali's. We all sat down together for dinner, every night. The idea of someone being late for dinner was like deciding to spend the night at school and not come home - it was simply too wrong to be considered. Dad used to whistle for us when dinner was ready - an affectation in such a small house, but we were always taught never to shout to eachother if we wanted something, so it worked.
We only ever had napkins at Christmas and Easter, but in that we didn't differ from anyone else in our social class. It was quite acceptable to ask for kitchen towels if you were getting in a mess - certainly more polite than wiping your mouth on your hands or your hands on your clothes.
All dinners were sit-down knife and fork affairs. Saturday lunch was always burger, chips and beans. The burger could be picked up in its bun, but not the chips (or the beans!)
Sunday lunch was as Ali described. Everything out on the table, make your own. This extended to deciding to have cheese on toast instead of a sandwich, even though you were up and cooking while other people were eating.
Dinner was always plated and you could reach over the table for anything you wanted because it was only condiments after all, and on a small table. I learned to ask for things to be passed at friends' houses. You had to ask for permission to leave the table - it was usually granted if you'd finished eating, especially to me as I made mealtimes a misery by complaining about my brother's eating habits. He was a picky eater - to the point he barely ate - so Mum gave him more leeway on certain manners. Like eating mouth-closed and quietly - she was just grateful he was eating at all. I hated it, thought it was unfair and disgusting and said so frequently. In fact I remember leaving the Christmas dinner table early when I was 14 (in tears and WITHOUT PERMISSION!) to go and phone my friend from a callbox because of a row over my brother's eating habits. Funny I've just thought of that. I also used to get up at 06.30 just so I didn't have to sit with him at breakfast - he took about an hour to eat it and it was the only meal of the day he enjoyed.
Anyway. We always had to eat everything on our plates. Even Stevo, although his was tailored to the things he would eat. I only remember one time I really couldn't eat what I was served. I had corned beef hash for the first time and took against it for no good reason. I felt a sneeze coming on, but Mum thought the face I was pulling was me working myself up to be sick and she slapped me out of the room. I then cried til I retched, probably proving her point. Anyway, at tea, Mum had gone to work and Dad had instructions to serve me my leftover lunch. By then I was quite cheerful, VERY hungry, and enjoyed it immensely. In hindsight I feel sorry for Mum, as all it really took was Dad serving it to me for me to decide it was the best meal ever.
My parents were too busy for dinner etiquette. I know my manners (I think) but we almost always ate in front of the TV in the living room since we were old enough to be trusted not to make a huge mess. Usually food was set out on the kitchen counter and it was serve yourself. Cleaning up after was almost always a fight. Napkin in my lap I almost never do, for some reason I just don't like it. The knife and fork thing is something else I didn't pick up. We were expected to eat all of our veggies, or most of them atleast, but if we didn't finish our food that was fine. I think its a horrible thing to be taught to finish your plate, you should stop when you're no longer hungry, if you eat until you're "full" thats actually overeating I've heard. Lack of drinking is also an odd habit we had at meals, we just didn't make sure to have a beverage at the table. When we ate with a friend's family, the mom made us kids drink milk with our dinner which is disgusting to me.
We didn't eat at table every day. Some evenings we would. More often we would eat off our laps in the tv room (we had two of what I would now call living rooms: the telly room and the sitting room). We probably ate at the table, as a family, twice a week. Partly that's cause Dad was a nightworker.
My favourite kind of meal was me, Mum and Our Kid, all sat watching one of our regular programmes, munching on sandwiches and homemade cheese&onion pie, scones and fruit cocktail. Or, sometimes me and Martin would cook (my contribution being minimal). The first time I used chop sticks was when Our Kid cooked a stir fry. lol, he had a karate style dressing gown, which he wore. Me and mum just wore satiny gowns and we all sat on the floor eating with chopsticks.* I found that very exciting :P
[* No idea why we were sitting on the floor. Probably merging Chinese and Indian lol).
I don't think there's anything wrong with expecting kids to eat everything on their plate. As a parent, you know how much they need to have and (if you've got any brains) you serve that quantity.
Too much food gets wasted by people who think it's ok to leave food on their plate. What particularly shits me are the people who serve themselves and still leave food on the plate.
Our western affluent society is far to greedy and thoughtless. If you can't eat it all, don't take it.
When I was very little I guess my parents tried the "eat everything" form of torture on me. When I was 4 or 5 I was waiting them out one night at dinner and managed to fall asleep and fall from my chair onto the hardwood floor. Several days later my mom decided to take me to the doctor, then for x-rays, then to have my arm put in a sling because my clavicle was broken.
From then on I've been in control of my own food intake and haven't struggled with my weight like so many others I've known whose parents decided they knew how much food someone else needed at any given moment.
How do you really know how much they need? They need the amount they eat, its not like they should get a big desert after. (Deserts are only reserved for special occasion in my family.) If you always make them eat everything on their plate then you're forcing them to eat food they don't necessarily want/need. My ex grew up with the "eat everything on your plate" rule and it caused a lot of problems because he would literally be sick after a dinner out. I agree that people often have eyes larger than their stomachs and sometimes even I over estimate myself. But that doesn't mean they should have to add another sin to that and over eat. As a parent you should know, two wrongs don't make a right. The food ends up as waste whether they eat it not, doesn't go to the poor starving children of the world.
I agree with Ali, although I think Jinx and More Than are saying something smiliar - parents should know their children well enough to serve them the right size portions. I think it's far worse to scrape away good food and then indulge the children later with snacks. I'm not saying anyone here does that - but I've certainly seen it. Specifically in the house of parents who claimed their daughter hardly had any appetite. Three forkfuls of pasta and she was done. Down from the table and off to watch tv. But she knew she could get crisps by asking later in the evening. And two biscuits with a glass of milk. And she was allowed to take another two biscuits up to bed so that if she woke up early, she could eat them while watching cartoons. Four biscuits and a packet of crisps is another meal for a 7 year old - and nowhere near as well balanced as the one that went in the bin.
Re weight and eating problems - that just doesn't ring true in my ears. My sister, my brother and I grew up in the same house, and although the rules were relaxed for my brother they still included finishing everything on the plate. Within reason I have to add - the odd mouthful was not an issue. My sis has never struggled with her weight, never got fat, never had anything other than a healthy relationship with food. My brother grew out of being faddy and although occasionally he puts on some weight, he always exercises it off - the weight gain tends to be when he isn't playing football or cycling. Me? I over-indulge. In everything. I am an all or nothing person. It's led to obesity and probably is a factor in my depression. I don't believe for one second it's because me parents made me finish my dinner.
Thing is, I'm sure there are as many different ways of parenting as there are people. But I also agree with Ali that to waste food today is as wrong as it ever has been. Forcing children to eat it does not help anyone. Having the sense to only buy and cook what your family needs is a far better option.
My dad used to try that 'eat everything on your plate' bollox. Hateful. Just led to major rows and tears. Poor Dad. He eventually gave up on that kind of nonsense. I remember one major row over a plate of curry. He actually tried the 'starving children in Africa would be grateful for the food' tactic. I said, in all seriousness "well, then send it to them."
Mum's tactics were different. She'd say well, just eat half. Then when I'd eaten half she'd say....oh come on just one more bite. Eventually we'd have reached a compromise position of throwing some away but not all:P If I really, really, stuck to my guns then she'd know I absolutely was not hungry, or really hated the taste. The food would be thrown away, no problem, but there would be no crisps or biscuits later. If I was very hungry later, I'd get a sandwich and a lecture on not leaving food.
Mum's attitude was, why make food into a major issue? Why not trust us to decide how hungry we were?
My brother and his wife have a similarly relaxed attitude to food with the girls. Amelia went through a brief phase of being awkward but she soon got over that. Both of them have a very sensible approach to nutrition. Amelia decided at age 9 that she wanted to be a vegetarian and has stuck to it ever since (she's now 14). Both of them enjoy fast food and sweets but not to excess. They both will generally try whatever you give them but will not be pushed into eating something they don't want.
I still want an answer as to why my elbows should not randomly rest on a table.
It's not like I lay my arms down or anything...but why not use the elbow to lean into a conversation you are having with the person opposite you? Especially if no one is sitting next to you.
In OUR house, manners were enforced. No elbows on the table, napkin in the lap (if linen only), grace before meals etc. Only one other rule was enforced... you could not eat TOO FAST. If I were to finish my meal in what was perceived as too little a time period, I would be made to do Oink Oinks... essentially crawling on my hands and knees yelling "Oink Oink!". I carry this grudge until this day.
What? They made you act like a pig? You have to be kidding me? Were they kidding? What?
I remember one major row over a plate of curry. He actually tried the 'starving children in Africa would be grateful for the food' tactic. I said, in all seriousness "well, then send it to them."
I think most kids have used this line at one time or another. I know I did. And to me now as an adult, it's not about sending a plate of curry to Africa or south America or Asia. It's about being aware of how lucky we are in every little thing we do and have and take for granted. Something so simple as a plate of food which maybe we don't like the taste of, but shit there's a lot of people in the world who don't even have that in the evening to be thankful for.
This is the message I try to get through to my kids. To pass on to them as my parents did to me. To have a social conscience and not be greedy. To take just as much as I need and no more. Be thankful I could come back for seconds if I wanted to, and the same if I'm serving out dinner for them. Give them as much as they need and no more. I can't believe a parent worth half their salt doesn't know how much their child will eat in a sitting in order to be full and healthy.
Lotta parents out there that aren't, as you put it, worth half their salt.
What? They made you act like a pig? You have to be kidding me? Were they kidding? What?
Nope. To this day I consciously moderate my eating speed.
Of course, I should have had fun with it, but I was too young and my weird sense of humour had not yet fully developed.
I think it's far worse to scrape away good food and then indulge the children later with snacks. I'm not saying anyone here does that - but I've certainly seen it.
Yeah, but this is a separate issue.
Leftovers can be wrapped and re-served, this is also a separate issue. I'm only talking about the idea of being forced to eat all the food someone else put on a plate.
Re weight and eating problems - that just doesn't ring true in my ears.
Well I certainly can't take credit for coming up with this theory... but I've read about it countless times. A quick googling of "clean your plate" and obesity...
NYT article
Researchers have found that the most important factor in the amount children eat is the amount put in front of them. The more they see, the more they eat.
Putting food in bowls in the center of the table and letting children take their own food may be the best approach to prevent overeating, he said.
Alternative Advice to "Clean you plate"
For centuries parents have been telling their children to clean their plates of food. But is that the best thing to teach your children? A study from Columbia University says "No."
"Clean your plate" might have made sense in a time when food was scarce or the next meal was uncertain. Nowadays, there's little risk of that in America, yet we continue that old training, suppressing healthy instincts.
Research shows babies who are breast fed rather than bottle fed are much less likely to become overweight later. Experts think that's because they learn to stop from their body's own signals, whereas a bottle-fed baby learns to eat until the bottle's empty, even if they're already full.
And old-fashioned dinnertime policies like "clean your plate" teach the same thing.
Im very conscious of my table manners, to the point where I get really uncomfortable if I eat with someone who doesnt have any, or very little table manners.
Breathing noises whilst eating really make me cringe, elbows on the table only after the meal is finished.
My mum used to tell us, elbows on the table made you look like a hungry dog protecting your meal from the dogs.
It was a huge hurdle for my ex and I, eating at the table, his American table habits used to drive me nuts!!
Im not too strict with the boys, so long as they sit on their bums, dont play with their cutlery, and dont mess around too much.
Re clean plate....Im a big believer in letting them decide how much they eat off their plates, but they know that the old *Im hungry* 30 mins after a meal routine will result in them getting their leftovers served again.
T-man (5), is a great eater, he tries everything he is served, sits quietly and chats, eats well and doesnt dick around.
A-man (3) is a grazer. If you try and make him sit and eat a decent size meal at one time, it will result in a battle of wills...3 year olds are VERY stubborn [COLOR="Silver"]'specially when they have red hair[/COLOR] ;) he squirms, fiddles, blows bubbles, generally dicks around and drives me spare.
I also find it depends on what they have eaten, or done during the day, to what they require at dinner time....so I usually serve smaller servings and they get more if required. But usually it results in them having 3 different courses, rather than more dinner.
Whatever works in my book.
An elbow on the table excludes the person to that side of you. rude.
Sometimes I find myself leaning on the table, but stop after I notice. Usually the tables are too tall for me to put my elbow on unconsciously anyway. At home it doesn't matter to me, I'm usually eating alone or with the roomie sitting on the couch, leaning over the coffee table. Not much different from my parent's, except they have TV trays. I guess I would find it rude for someone to be eating with their elbows on the table, but either I've never noticed it or I only eat with very well mannered people. "Smacking" or chewing with your mouth open is gross and noisy. My sister used to accuse me of it all time, even to the point of making me cry. What would happen: I would take a bite that was a bit too big for my mouth, and that combined would cause the need for me to slightly open my mouth once or twice while adjusting the food. No one else would even notice and she would flip out. Also according to her I made a lot of noise in just my regular chewing. Again, no one else has ever mentioned it. I do have a problem with eating and talking because I often say something whenever it pops into my head. So something will occur to me, and I'll forget I have food in my mouth when I voice it. I hate that I do that.
Thank you, Jinx, for putting such thought into your post about the "eating everything on your plate" debate, now I don't have to. :)
I don't think a child should be indulged with snacks later, and especially unhealthy ones. That happened with a cousin and she has severe weight problems. Just that if they don't want to eat it all then, than they shouldn't have too. Appetites aren't always consistent from day to day and although I'm not saying the parents are putting an unreasonable amount on the plate, its still a guess as to how much the kid needs. In that case you should listen when they want to stop, and if they're hungry and want more later they can have the leftover. Not snacks or dessert. Ali, I'm glad you're working instilling your children with a thankfulness for their privileges, and I'm sure it will pay off. I was the snotty little kids who when my mom told me,"You could have a much worse mom than I am." I'd reply, "Yeah, but I could also have a much better one."
Ali, I'm glad you're working instilling your children with a thankfulness for their privileges, and I'm sure it will pay off. I was the snotty little kids who when my mom told me,"You could have a much worse mom than I am." I'd reply, "Yeah, but I could also have a much better one."
MTP, thanks. I do my best just as most other parents. I can't say that my kids appreciate all that I try to teach them now, but in time, I hope they will. I know that when I was a kid, I didn't appreciate a lot of the things my parents 'forced' me to do, but as a parent, I certainly do. It's made me who I am today for the main part, and I reckon they did a pretty good job. That leads me to the response you would give your Mum about how you could have had a better one. My guess is that you probably feel differently about things now? I know when I was a kid I really thought both my parents were domineering dictators, but things have definitely changed for me now. I know they made mistakes. All parents do. Anyone that says they haven't is either a liar or in denial. I make mistakes all the time.
I think all a parent can do is try to do the best by their child. Bring them up to have a conscience about the world around them as well as themselves. To care for people and other living creatures and to be thankful for the gifts they have in their lives. We all have different ideas about what's important to teach our kids, but I guess that's what makes the world a better place, and why we can all keep on learning to be better than we are...even us old farts.
My mom and I have been through some very rough patches, especially with my depression and her general craziness. We're quite close now and I try and tell her, as often as my pride will allow it, that I think she does an exceptional job and thank her for that. We often discuss past mistakes made and I've always understood that parenting is not black and white. We are both willing to say "I'm sorry" for the past, even if it takes awhile to get to that point, without that I don't think we would have a relationship today. Although I am usually quite respectful, I still like to rebel and try and scare or shock the hell outta her, I think its good for her heart.
I reckon many many many women go through similar ordeals with their mother. I think there's so much love that flows between mothers and daughters...it creates so much expectation on both sides...and both sides are bound to be disappointed, until they both realize how unrealistic they're being and learn to accept each other warts and all.
In my experience, if it doesn't happen during young adulthood, it almost always happens when the daughter becomes a mother herself.
There were times in my life that I wished my mother dead, and then I found out what an awesome person she was. Now she really is gone. I'm glad we had the time to just love each other, warts and all. I'd be a basket case now if not.
Jinx - you raise some excellent points re a better way to feed a child. Not having my own, I am very much anchored in the 70s, when I was raised. Although I won't claim that we were poor enough "not to know where the next meal was coming from" food was certainly an economic issue in our house. Firstly we didn't have a car, so all food had to be hauled from the town centre a mile away in a shopping trolley. Secondly my parents were paid weekly, and not well paid at that, so they had to budget more carefully. And thirdly we didn't have a freezer until I was about 10, so again meals had to be planned in advance and cooked to schedule.
So it made sense to plate meals and food was a valuable commodity. The only meal we helped ourselves to was breakfast, because cereal was cheap and a great filler. We would have 3-4 bowls each, which seems excessive now!
I can see that things have changed to the point where leftover food can be reused, and as long as the options are healthy it can work as a way of dealing with daily fluctuations of interest and appetite.
Leftovers were always my favourite, coming as they did in the form of Bubble&Squeak.
One of the reasons clashes over meals tended to happen when Dad was cooking, more than when mum cooked, was that my mum had a genius for turning the most mundane thing into a treat. She could invest practically anything with treat status. My childhood favourites were almost always the really cheap stuff lol. Bubble&Squeak was a classic example of that. Salmon, or beef paste sandwiches was my other favourite.
Though I am incredibly wasteful of food as an adult, mum taught me one of the most useful skills I can think of: I can make a meal out of thin air:P Being able to throw together something which is recognisably a meal from seemingly empty cupboards is a skill which has served me very well in the lean times.
Chicken paste sandwiches on white bread. Yum.
Only beaten by crusty cheese rolls. Crusty rolls had to be eaten on the same day of purchase so were the ultimate perishable treat.
Thinking back, paste sandwiches made with white bread was pretty much a staple of childhood for seventies Brits. Certainly in working-class areas.
Sundae, what's the name of the main brand of paste?
Shiphams!
But we always had Coop...
Thinking back, paste sandwiches made with white bread was pretty much a staple of childhood for seventies Brits. Certainly in working-class areas.
Sundae, what's the name of the main brand of paste?
Anchovy, almond, tomato, and tooth are the only pastes I can think of... Do we have chicken paste over here - called something else?
We call our meat pastes "cat food."
Interesting thread.
My family enforced reasonably strict table manners, much to the consternation of my grandma. Grandma (maternal grandma) lived with us and was nearly always the cook, but was a real country gal. Now that I reflect on it, I understand why she was always so reluctant to come to the table with the rest of us and sat to eat right about when we were done. My dad made her nervous, I guess.
My dad was raised in a home that served as a boarding house in the 1940's-50's, and said that the horrible manners of their boarders appalled him to such a degree he would never live that way again. But as neither parent had actual "training" about such things, aside from what they'd read in books, we mostly did what made for reasonably pleasant meals.
Important things were proper knife & fork usage (nothing formal, just learning not to look awkward while doing it), napkin in lap, no elbows on table (forearms OK but discouraged), chewing with mouth closed, not reaching across the table for things, not mixing foods not intended for such, never touching another person's food, etc.
We served our meals "family style" in dishes on the table, help yourself. My parents didn't make an issue of how much I ate; I guess I was always reasonable about it. Mom always said, she'd never make me eat this or that, because there were plenty of foods she didn't like either.
I'm glad my parents enforced those table manners; they said, and I agree wholeheartedly, that there would be times that manners really matter and I'd be glad to know how to behave, glad that the manners came naturally without much effort.
Ahem...now it's my turn to be the enforcer.
We have rules too, but we're not nearly as strict as my parents. I still cannot abide open-mouthed chewing, loud belches, reaching across the table, wiping mouths on sleeves! But oh my gosh, my challenges are many. Like making my son sit in the damn chair for the twenty minutes it takes to eat a meal. Not too much to ask, I don't think.
I hate having the TV on during meals, but we do it all the time. (sigh)
But then again, I have a bad habit of reading at the table, so I can't complain too much.
We tend to serve our meals buffet-style; I put all the foods (often in their pots/pans, to save effort) either on the stove or on the kitchen island and let everyone just come and plate up whatever they want. Now that my kids are 10 and 12 they can decide how much they want at a time and can usually go for seconds.
I don't make them clean their plate, certainly - but I do make sure they eat a reasonable amount of what they took. Which isn't a challenge with my daughter who will eat anything at any time (where she puts it I have no idea), but my son is SO picky, it's like he gets bored with eating as soon as the initial hunger pangs are gone. Then of course he's hungry again 10 minutes later and expects to eat snacks. Drives me bonkers.
Loud belching is a competition at house, my burping skills are unmatched as yet.
Even at work I can out belch everyone.
I come off classy until I open my mouth :blush:
Is there a manner related to eating in the living room so as to watch something on TV?
We do it most of the time. All normal table manners still apply of course, but I've been catching myself talking with food in my mouth recently, I'm not sure what it means but I have taken to concentrating on manners a bit more.
I come off classy until I open my mouth :blush:
Hmm - :headshake I'll refrain from comment.
That's some impressive self-restraint you got goin on there classic:P
I think loud burping is an Australian passtime really. We all do it at our house, and right now in my current state, I seem to be outdoing all the testosterone in the house.
At the end of the meal most of us will have a good burp. I'm not too keen on it in the middle of the meal, but it's ok if everyone's finished eating (except sometimes Mav has to put up with it because he is an interminably slow eater).
And how many letters of the alphabet have you gotten up to on one belch...?
Hmm - :headshake I'll refrain from comment.
Ohhh, I see.....Im not even classy before I open my mouth :neutral:
Me and my bro used to have burping contests. My Dad used to tell us off :P
I still don't have a good answer as to why my elbows should not be on the table.
Everyone is always sitting across from me. Because that's polite. Now why should my elbow not be on the table?
Everyone is always sitting across from me.
How do you manage that when eating with more than 1 other person?
Round tables. The only time anyone is really right next to me is when my husband and I feel like sitting together. Then it's really rude because we are intentionally in each others space and use that to our advantage. ;)
My dinner table is also set up with the chairs directly across and we really never have more than 4 people at one sitting.
I still want the answer, mind you. I will not be distracted with more questions when I want a good answer.
I still don't have a good answer as to why my elbows should not be on the table.
I suppose it shows a slovenly attitude which is disrespectful both to company and to the cook.
That's my answer. Whether you think it is good or not is up to you.
Because it makes your breasts sag. ;)
This is a very serious topic.....This is life or death here, let's figure this out!
You guys aren't really going to let me go around putting my elbows in the wrong places are you?!?
:)
If you put your elbows on the table you're likely to knock over your beer.
At least that's what my mom told me when I was little.
Actually HLJ has a point about spilling stuff if you've got too much arm on the table.
have you ever noticed how easily kids knock stuff over at the table? And then of course, adults should keep most of their arms off the table in order to set a good example.
I see this as a possible explanation for where the idea came from. Who's with me?
I remember reading somewhere about allowing the forearm (just one) to rest on your table place along the table edge, during dessert. A sort of Plan B, for relaxed dining en-famille. Dessert plates being smaller, there'd be room.
My Equadorian friend has a different set of table rules, the most important of which is that you should never ever ever put your hands below the level of the table. Apparently it's a way of making sure that you don't get shot or stabbed by a fellow diner.
This is also a custom in Japan.
Our mom was pretty strict about table manners, and manners in general, especially if we went out to eat. You did not have your elbows on the table, you did not wear a hat at the table, you must wash your hands before dinner, you don't argue or even laugh at the table. You don't speak with your mouth full. You pass the food when asked, and you asked to be excused if you want to leave the table for any reason. You kept your napkin in your lap. When you asked someone to pass the food you would say please and thank you. If eating chicken or something like that, dad always got the biggest piece.
You were expected to be on time for dinner and if you weren't, you got into trouble. There were 3 of us, so one would clean up the table, one would wash dishes, and one would dry them and put them away. We had a dish washer, but my mom didn't trust them.
Dinner time was when we talked about what was going on at school, or my dad would talk about his day at work, etc.
If we were outside in a restaurant and we did anything to embarrass our parents, there was no question that a beating was coming. Often times at restaurants, complete strangers would approach our table and tell our parents how well behaved we were.
I seriously think having the family dinner thing and expecting kids to have table manners helps them to be more respectful and keeps them on the right track. When I was a kid, I thought my parents were crazy and I hated them. Now that I'm older, I'm thankful they loved us enough to do the right thing even though it would have been easier to allow us to turn into animals like some of the other kids we saw running around, back talking, etc.
My parents came from poor backgrounds, but we still had table manner rules. We all sat together and there was no tv on, well we didn't actually have a tv, so that wasn't an issue. Napkins in our laps, using please and thank you, passing to your left. No loud noises, slurping, burping, or flatulence at the table. If you need to cough or sneeze, excuse yourself from the table and leave the room. Don't leave the table until you've asked to be excused and permission is granted. No elbows on the table and don't play with your food or utensils.
I've passed on these basics to my children, although we're not terribly strict, we do want our children to be feel comfortable no matter what sort of event they are participating in.
However, I found after I grew up, I was completely unprepared for formal dining. Three knives, four forks, three spoons, three glasses, several plates, and sorbet being served between courses. Never put your napkin in your lap until the host(ess) does, always put the knife on the place-blade facing inwards, but never leave the soup spoon in the bowl, it is always placed beside the bowl. Only sip soup from the side of the spoon, don't insert the spoon into your mouth and leave your napkin on your chair, not the table. Is there such a thing as carrying manners to an extreme?
In my travels, I learned many other countries customs, but usually they are tolerant of guest's errors.
Oh, when out in restaurants, I often have complete strangers come to our table and compliment my children for being so well-behaved. That's always a good feeling :) .
Stormie
ps: Cicero, the rule of keeping elbows off the table is a courtesy for your tablemates. If you were to accidentally knock over a drink or dump their soup into their lap, it would be rude. There is less chance of that happening if the awkward and angular elbows are by your side and not being swung around where the food is located.
We probably learned table manners from newspaper articles than real life. I do not recall ever going to a restaurant that did not have a drive-thru window, but at home we were expected to conduct ourselves in such a way as to not get the Old Man mad. It was a survival consideration, not a courtesy to our table mates. I have never seen or heard of the "American custom" of switching a fork to the other hand but I would not do it anyway. I'm a lefty and have a difficult enough time with a right-handed world. Rightys can just look the other way on that one, I insist on indulging my stubborn streak on that point! Elbows on the table look slovenly and are hazardous to items that do belong on the table, but I think it's more to present a good form to others diners, much like a washed face, combed hair, and clean clothes allow others to enjoy a meal since they have to look at you while you share the table.
I was thinking of this thread on Sunday when I was working.
There was a little boy behaving badly in the pub - the first really poorly controlled kid I've seen since I've worked there (apart from one little Italian girl, but different rules apply to tourists!)
He was about 3 and was allowed to run round as he pleased when the rest of the family were eating. We'd made a special child's portion for him but it was left untouched as far as I could see (we are a pub not a bar, so don't really cater for children).
He kept trying to run into the kitchen because the first time he tried it his Dad chased after him. I sympathise in that the kid thought it was a game and would probably have screamed the place down if he was stopped but it was potentially very dangerous (with a possibility of fatal). It was more that the rest of the family - Grandparents too! - seemed to think this was quite cute and quite normal. Not a child used to eating with grown ups it seems.
Oh and later he started throwing money about. Three times he picked up change from the table and threw it onto the floor. Overhand throws, not just pushing it off the table. And they thought that was funny too, although after the third time Dad (again) decided enough was enough and pocketed the money. Letting your child throw anything inside an eating or drinking establishment is pretty wrong. And it was only 2p's so not even worth the collection value ;)
That kind of behavior makes me cringe. It's pretty common around here, though. We get complimented on our kids' behavior. When I hear a kid screaming at his parents or demanding this or that, I feel grateful that we are fairly strict and that our kids don't do that. I always think back to "what my parents would have done if I had behaved like that."
I can attest to that. I've had dinner with Case and family.
When I was a wee lass and a waitress at the finest pancake establishment in the world (IHOP) (grin) a had two OLD LADIES, the only patrons in the place at 3.0 in the afternoon, throw creamers at me to get my attention (my back was turned as I was preparing another gigantic urn of coffee) and I was WELL within earshot should they have said, "Miss..?" I turned to them, glared at them and in my most haughty nineteen year-old voice told them it was completely unacceptable to throw things at me. Dumb bithches! And as most of my teens years are a blur of beer drinking, quaalude taking and pot smoking, the fact that this incident is recalled is testiment to its hideousness.
Here endeth the lesson.
When I finally get to come & see you, we'll go & throw creamers at the IHOP waitresses together.
When I finally get to come & see you, we'll go & throw creamers at the IHOP waitresses together.
I'm holding you to that!
I had a woman, a preacher's wife no less, throw a bag of limes at me because the sign said they were X dollars per pound and I charged her 15 cents apiece. Yes, we had changed the price. Yes we had forgotten to change the sign. The thing was, she was getting them CHEAPER at the new price. She didn't care, would rather throw stuff at the HS girl who was trying to explain they were on sale.
Early lessons of humanity, right there.
Her husband was really nice. My cow orker and I called HER Mint Julep because she wore the ugliest mint green church-bitch suit you ever saw! :lol:
When I was a wee lass and a waitress at the finest pancake establishment in the world (IHOP) (grin) a had two OLD LADIES, the only patrons in the place at 3.0 in the afternoon, throw creamers at me.
I worked at an overpriced restaurant/bar popular with the local yuppies throughout my teens. Rude patrons were
severely punished for their transgressions, although they were no the wiser....
So, did they old ladies get a booger in their tea or what?
I don't understand why anyone would throw anything at a member of the wait staff. So rude.
If you really think the staff is that bad, at least be a grown up about it and ask to speak to the manager or something, but chucking stuff at them? Unbelievable.
Sounds like
Fight Club.
Narrator: Tyler was now involved in a class action lawsuit against the Pressman Hotel over the urine content of their soup.
I worked at an overpriced restaurant/bar popular with the local yuppies throughout my teens. Rude patrons were severely punished for their transgressions, although they were no the wiser....
So, did they old ladies get a booger in their tea or what?
Nah. I had then (and still have) a very certain death-ray quality about myself that I could turn on at will. I was brought up with manners (all evidence to the contrary!) and I could stare a paragraph of frozen hate in my eyes and body lingo. Those biddies got the message. THEY thought they were being "girlish" and "cute" but when I was done with them they had left a hefty tip and were very abashed. HA! I never spoke a rude word to them but I let them know that
I was better than they which is a thing I can still do to my own detriment, usually. Eh, few 19 year-olds were as self-righteous as I. Sigh.
Eh, few 19 year-olds were as self-righteous as I. Sigh.
Oh, I don't know. Self-righteousness seems to me the absolute province of the late teen :P
I really liked working at the neighborhood bar in my days...I did not have to take people being rude. At first I would mess with them in a humorous way. If that didn't work I'd tell them to shut the fuck up. If that didn't work I'd tell them to GTFO. Being half-crazy and dangerously fearless, I'd corral them to the door myself!
At the Country Club you were supposed to just smile and nod. Fat chance. Had they MET me?
Oh, I don't know. Self-righteousness seems to me the absolute province of the late teen :P
Wot U sed!