Words in the wrong context
I guess we all notice things about how others communicate with us, but one thing that bugs me is when people use the wrong word in place of the right word.
As an example, and one of the situations that really bugs me, is when people use the word 'then' instead of 'than'. eg. 'I'd rather go to bed then watch tv', instead of, 'I'd rather go to bed than watch tv'.
Another one is when people say 'axe' instead of 'ask'.
I think my main objection to it is from a traditional stance in that the english language is bastardized more than enough through slang and local nuances. Do we really have to make it worse by using the completely wrong word? Isn't it possible to learn at least the basics?
It's spelled "aks", Ali. As in, "didja aks her out?"
Oh yeah...silly me. I should have realized you don't type a real word when you're describing someone else's pronunciation errors.
You mean, like people who say 'boot' when they mean 'trunk'?
or trunk when they mean boot even...
To be honest though, that's not really what I meant. I think you know that though right HLJ?
Don't misunderestimate yourself.
And youse guy's are really great.
I'm sure I could of thunk up more examples.
On this topic, I have been thinking about ZippyT's ... how can I put this ... unconventional approach to spelling. At first I dismissed this as the struggles of someone whose literacy level was sorely lacking (my apologies for this Zippy!) but I've been wondering, provided that there is a large enough group that take the same apporach, use the same spellings, etc, could we say Zippy is writing - CORRECTLY - in a dialect of English different from, eg, mine?
At what point does a local peculiarity become a legitimate regional dialect? And when or how does this become dominant?
For example, of course the correct spelling of words like colour and flavour involve the letter "u" ( ;) ) but our American friends had to save ink (something about rationing during the war of independence, I think) and left the "u" out, to the point that this is now the (statistically) prevalent form. How many people need to agree on a non-standard usage or spelling for it to become an "accepted" variant? And then the "standard" form?
What you suggest is true and obviously how languages evolve. Of course, english in all it's forms originated from german language, so perhaps the German people should be complaining about how we've destroyed their language.
I think my argument just stems from irritation at hearing words pronounced or used in the wrong way. No great philosophy about it. Just a basic human emotion.
Ali - yes, I'm just kidding you
ZG - I agree about 'could of'
This is a little different, but the phrase 'try and ___' drives me nuts, and I see it all the time. It should be 'try to ___.' For example, "I'll try and call before I leave." Now that I've mentioned it, maybe it will bug you too.
english in all it's forms
[snicker]
[/anal]
Sorry, Ali, love you really.
Are you ripping on the lower-case 'e' or the apostrophe?
I know you do Zen. ;)
Now you're getting HLJ. :D
Both - the bold is a bit hard to see.
"try and ..." ugghhh.
This is a little different, but the phrase 'try and ___' drives me nuts, and I see it all the time. It should be 'try to ___.' For example, "I'll try and call before I leave." Now that I've mentioned it, maybe it will bug you too.
'try and...' may be grammatically less correct than 'try to...', but it is in common usage in many spoken dialects of english. I use it myself.
'try and...' may be grammatically less correct than 'try to...', but it is in common usage in many spoken dialects of english. I use it myself.
Well, there you go! If enough people say it, it becomes "common usage." Our kids very early on picked up the habit of using "done" without "with" (example: "I'm done my homework"). It drives my wife and me up the wall, but lots of people around here seem to do it. (Including, to my amused horror, my son's language arts teacher when we went in for our regularly scheduled conference with her.)
At what point does a local peculiarity become a legitimate regional dialect? And when or how does this become dominant?
For example, of course the correct spelling of words like colour and flavour involve the letter "u" ( ;) ) but our American friends had to save ink (something about rationing during the war of independence, I think) and left the "u" out, to the point that this is now the (statistically) prevalent form. How many people need to agree on a non-standard usage or spelling for it to become an "accepted" variant? And then the "standard" form?
The question on what spelling variants are included in the dictionary largely depends on the publishers of those dictionaries. These dictionary publishers tend to be conservative, so even a widespread misspelling would not generally make it into the dictionary.
For example, "embarrassed" is the dictionary-standard spelling. However, on the Web, it is not the most common spelling. The most common Web spelling is "embarassed" (one r, not two). Yet the dictionary makers would likely not include this most widespread spelling even though it outnumbers the correct spelling on the Web by about 2 to 1.
Other words take a long time to change their spellings. "Minuscule" is the correct spelling per dictionary, but it is slowly losing out to the widespread misspelling of "miniscule". How slowly? So far it's taken over a hundred years and "minuscule" is still the standard spelling.
"Through" is similarly entrenched against "thru". Even though "thru" was in acceptable use as a variant spelling when Johnson released the first edition of his dictionary in the 18th century, he chose to prefer the archaic "through" and that is what we have used ever since.
English spellings tend not to change because the spellings of English work a bit like this:
* The people use dictionaries to look up spellings
* Dictionaries record common usage
* Common usage comes from the people
This mechanism is similar to:
* Rock beats scissors
* Scissors beats paper
* Paper beats rock
Oh yeah...silly me. I should have realized you don't type a real word when you're describing someone else's pronunciation errors.
There is actually a literary term for this. It is called "eye dialogue" or "creative respelling," and I am thinking of using it for my master's thesis, if I ever get that far. :D
A peeve of mine is saying "I could care less" when they really mean "I couldn't care less." If you could care less, that means you care a lot, right?
Then...there are those errors that you think about fondly, because someone you loved very much used to say them and though it irritated the snot out of you at the time, you'd do anything to hear it again....(sigh) My dad used to say this: "neither mind." (never mind)
supposably. go to the liberry, and look that word up.
Ah yes, the liberry, my favorite fruit. ;)
< nitpick > Though English is a 'Germanic' language, it's not a descendant of German. They both descend from the same origins, yes, but they evolved a lot due to separation, and then got further separated thanks to multiple invasions of what became England.
A peeve of mine is saying "I could care less" when they really mean "I couldn't care less." If you could care less, that means you care a lot, right?
Also one of my pet peeves:)
Ali - yes, I'm just kidding you
ZG - I agree about 'could of'
This is a little different, but the phrase 'try and ___' drives me nuts, and I see it all the time. It should be 'try to ___.' For example, "I'll try and call before I leave." Now that I've mentioned it, maybe it will bug you too.
That's one of my peeves too...
try and..., I mean. Also, someone who says
anyways.
I have my share of regional error speaking...but I'm a firm believer that popular usage doesn't make it right. I catch myself a lot.
My big thing lately is a certain, um...dialect (?) that uses the long e sound for i and and i sound for a long e. For example "He feeled the water glass for me, but I still fill nothing towards him romantically."
Ugh.
Oh, and then there's FASSA.
I have my share of regional error speaking...but I'm a firm believer that popular usage doesn't make it right.
Nothing wrong with dialect forms. 'Standard' English is just the dialect which won out as the 'correct' version, refined through latinate grammar.
At what point does it end. If I can convince everyone that "slapbuttosky" is another word for "spaghetti" will that be OK? :lol:
It's an ever-evolving language , to be sure. I'm a language purist without the knowledge a language purist should have. In other words, I know just enough to be dangerous.
At what point does it end. If I can convince everyone that "slapbuttosky" is another word for "spaghetti" will that be OK?
lol. Highly unlikely. Very few new words or usages stick long term. The replacement of 'to' with 'and' is a particular kind of deviation from standard, but I can't recall the mechanism. There are a few similar ones that have a tendency to crop up in certain dialects.
I'm also the worst when it comes to "fad" phrases. I was a TOTAL (joke intended) valley girl talking young lady in HS and college, and now I use internet based phrases and some young lingo, just because I pick up stuff like that easily. I probably sound stupid. hee heee
OMG, like, I am SO immature for my age.
Also, if I spent a week in England I can guarantee you the accent will creep into my speech. That's a desirable thing, imo.
I'll just throw this one out there -
"Lemme acks you - can I borrow your inkpen?
My big thing lately is a certain, um...dialect (?) that uses the long e sound for i and and i sound for a long e.
I don't like that, but I use it for one word: "league". I say "ligg". How many teams are in this ligg? Do they play in the American or the National ligg? For some reason I find it enjoyable to say it that way.
I grew up around fairly heavy southern US/Appalachian accents. I lost most of mine, partly through (I think) several years of speech therapy when I was little. I then lived in bigger (but still Southern) cities for six years, followed by Philadelphia for 18.
The guy I'm tutoring through the literacy council has a very thick South Philly accent.
At certain times, hilarity ensues from the combinations of accents.
[Word in a book: Past]
Him: Pass'
Me: It's Past.
Him: Oh, Pass'
Me: PasT
Him: Pass'.
etc. :)
Heard from a co-worker from a manufacturing job a long time ago:
He (the technical writer) is goin' to change the floormat of our work procedures again. He's already done it twicet.
I thought of another one, and I am guilty of it but I'm also very aware and hear it in commercials, on TV shows...sometimes I'm pleasantly surprised to hear it correctly on things I might otherwise expect poor grammar, and chagrined to hear it incorrectly on productions I feel should know better:
Using that instead of who. For example "Those girls that ate the nachos are now very sick." To me, it should be "those girls WHO ate..."
I'm not even sure it's grammatically incorrect, but it drives me crazy.
I think a good hefty percentage of Americans have some kind of accent that creeps in when they aren't paying attention. I do. I have KY/Appalachian roots, and I catch myself saying the darndest things. Like "winduh" instead of "window." Or "fill" instead of "feel."
Of course, the city of Louisville is properly pronounced "Louvul." I live near Centerville, so natch, I call it "Centervul." Yes, people give me strange looks.
One thing my hubby teases me about is calling the TV remote a "flipper." He said he'd never heard anybody else in the whole wide world say that, and I'm sure that's true. But it still makes perfect sense to me, as in, "flip" the channels, as you would have done on an old-fashioned TV with a dial. I think I got the term from my grandma.
Everyone knows that a "flipper" is really a spatula. :)
At what point does it end. If I can convince everyone that "slapbuttosky" is another word for "spaghetti" will that be OK? :lol:
It's an ever-evolving language , to be sure. I'm a language purist without the knowledge a language purist should have. In other words, I know just enough to be dangerous.
One of my favorite books when I was younger was
Frindle. You ought to read it sometime, even though it's a kids book.
I also have a big pet peeve with "I could care less" and I lecture my boyfriend for phrases like this all the time.
My family calls it the clicker, even though it doesn't click. I just call it the 'remote.'
In Ohio there is a town called Lancaster. However, as many of my co-students in college who hailed from there told me "It's not Lancaster, it's Lancaster." The second one is pronounced "lank-ster." They get really testy if you pronounce it incorrectly.
What do you mean 'The remote'? There are several remotes - one for the surround system, one for the DVD player, one for the projector, one for the lights, one for the little girl who lives in the lane, etc.
One of my annoying traits is picking up on other people's mis-pronounciations (genuine or unintentional) and using them for my own amusement. When I'm in a relationship or a close friendship it's not so bad - they become part of the verbal shorthand. I know I've passed on a couple to other people that way.
But when I'm by myself they are the archetypal private joke - even I find it wearing. I often repeat things under my breath, or just think them if I'm having a conversation.
For example thinking Ly-ces-ter to myself when talking about Leicester. Or Pickaly-Dickaly when talking about Piccadilly Circus, or the Piccadilly Line. Both of those come from a documentary about the staff at Islington station that I watched when I was still at school - one of the guards used to pretend to be helpful to tourists but really screw them over. I suppose he was a "character" but for Dad it confirmed his view of North Londoners. Miserable sod, he said.
My newest one is calling one of our bitters Bom-BAR-dee-ay. After a customer asked for it that way. Prior to that I'd been walking round with the poem Timothy Winters in my head "Old man Winters likes his beer/ And his missus ran off with a bombadier/ Grandma sits in the grate with a gin/ and Timothy's dosed with an aspirin."
Sloppy language bothers me though. I probably do say, "Try and..." although it would come out as trine - as in, "I'm not sure, I'll trine find out for you." I'm pretty sure I wouldn't write it though. At least not in a formal letter. It's like should have sounding like should of - I'd never write should of but I could be accused of saying it. We run our words together here you see.
I don't use the word got in conversation though. I say have. Also try my best never to confuse can and may. And get me and I correct.
I'm a good girl I am.
should of instead of should have is often the abreviation, should've. So maybe you're not so bad after all Sundae. ;)
How about the absence of "to be".. For instance -
The car needs [SIZE="1"][COLOR="Silver"]to be[/COLOR][/SIZE] washed.
Try to ____ is a single-verb construction. Try and _____ is two separate verbs, two separate actions, and quite a possible logical construction. True mastery of your native tongue is knowing which of the two you are using and to what end.
True mastery may also be shown in mastering archaic present tense -- in case thou dost not protest too much, or something.
A pet peeve I've taken to scratching behind the ears of is the use of subject forms of the pronoun when the objective is called for: the object of the verb or the preposition is not "I," blast it, it is "me." Sleeping through elementary-school grammar isn't how to do well in life. Would you say (a particular offender) "between . . . I?" "To . . . I?" No, you wouldn't. And you aren't supposed to, no matter who's in company with you in the predicate clause.
Nothing wrong with dialect forms. 'Standard' English is just the dialect which won out as the 'correct' version, refined through latinate grammar.
Latinate vocabulary, yes; latinate grammar no, despite the dominies' try at making us never end sentences a preposition with, up with which we don't now put. Because structurally, you can't do that in Latin. But English isn't Latin. It even has more letters -- K, U, W, a frenchy J, and a Z. Between the Angles and the Saxons speaking distinct tongues, but still with eighty to ninety percent commonality, Old English had all its noun declensions knocked off in the collisions -- grammar teachers being thin on the ground in the Dark Ages. It already had few verb forms to keep track of, so I suppose (without certainty) that our trains of auxiliary verbs to arrive at the meaning we intend for the verb in the sentence were already being joined up.
We did keep declining pronouns, though, at least into subjective and objective cases -- though usually we just call them forms. We share this not only with the Germanic group, but indeed all of Europe. (What do the Basques do to personal pronouns? And who besides a Basque can tell?:cool: )
Juniper: except the ones that are spatulate seal parts.
Once when I was in high school, the French class two of my compadres were taking introduced the subjunctive. They got into an argument over whether or not there's a subjunctive in English.[/geeks]
Latinate vocabulary, yes; latinate grammar no, despite the dominies' try at making us never end sentences a preposition with, up with which we don't now put.
Oh I realise that Latinate grammar is not successfully applied to English, but the fact remains much of what is considered 'correct' grammar is an attempt to crowbar the language into an alien grammatical framework. This didn't happen during the Dark Ages, it happened later during a resurgence in popularity for Latin studies. This applies most particularly to written English.
In England, Standard English is effectively the bastard son of the dominant Old English dialect and incoming Norman French. It is the dialect of the wealthiest and most fertile areas of Britain. Other dialects, many so varied as to be sister languages, rather than mere variations, didn't hold the same currency and when language became more formalised, were relegated to incorrect forms.
Sleeping through elementary-school grammar isn't how to do well in life.
No, UG, it isn't the way to do well in language classes. I have known successful people whose command of grammar would make you wince. I have likewise known people whose understanding of grammar bordered on the obsessive and for whom life was somehow very difficult.
An understanding of grammar is a good skill to have. The English language is so vast and complex that to be absolute in that understanding would require years of careful study. Not everybody chooses to know how the engine of their car works. As long as it carries them where they need to go and there are people willing to train as mechanics, why should they?
If you can make yourself understood, then you are achieving what you set out to achieve when you use the tool of language.
Once when I was in high school, the French class two of my compadres was taking introduced the subjunctive. They got into an argument over whether or not there's a subjunctive in English.[/geeks]
I wish I were knowledgable about the
subjunctive mood. ;)
And on a somewhat related note:
Who came up with the spelling of choose, chose, lose, loose?
Choose rhymes with
lose (at least in American English). Chose rhymes with hose. Loose rhymes with caboose. No wonder people have trouble learning English.
For some reason I think "try and" sounds less bossy than "try to". I use both.
Maybe it all isn't about the level of literacy, and more about personal preferences like that one.
Except for SteveDallas's example of "done my homework". Now that's just odd. Maybe that's a west coast thing.
Except that we live in Philadelphia!
I talk to a lot of people everyday and I'll just post them as I hear them.
"The car needs washed."
Seems to be a central PA thing.
And on a somewhat related note:
Who came up with the spelling of choose, chose, lose, loose?
Choose rhymes with lose (at least in American English). Chose rhymes with hose. Loose rhymes with caboose. No wonder people have trouble learning English.
You can add "loos" to the list. It's British slang for "toilets".
Pronunciations change but spellings are fossilized. Blood, flood. Great, steak, break. Vein, grey, they. There are ten or so different ways of pronouncing "ough". All these groups of words have changed their pronunciation but retained their archaic spellings.
English spelling is the linguistic equivalent of what you get when you don't cut the grass and prune the roses for a long time.
"The car needs washed."
Seems to be a central PA thing.
It's also a fairly standard construction in Scottish English.
And then there's this spelling of fish:
ghoti
It's also a fairly standard construction in Scottish English.
bollocks ;)
as for aks/ask ... you'd be a marked target if you said ask in some areas of Detroit -it's not just an ignorant mispronunciation -it's dialect.
The story behind "ghoti."
"The car needs washed."
Seems to be a central PA thing.
I heard this sort of locution in the Navy all the time. Everywhere the Navy was.
I chalk it up to "elliptical construction."
Actually, in the area of PA I grew up in, you didn't wash a car, you warshed it. With whuter. Don't forget to check yer oal while yer at it.
Or should I say, while ya'll're at it.
I always check my earl. I do warsh my car... with wooder.
Lemmee ast ya this: jever go up the mall? Or down the shore?
I live near Centerville, so natch, I call it "Centervul." Yes, people give me strange looks.
Kul! I live in Kettering!!!
(I know, completely out of line with this thread---sorry!)
Here's a good Appalachian word combo:
writin' stick
as in, "Kin I borruh yer writin' stick?"
other faves: vomick (vomit) and swolled (swollen)
I think I mentioned this in another thread, but my grandmother used to refer to "arsh" (aka Irish) potatoes, and "Vye-eena" (aka Vienna) sausages.
A common one in Yorkshire is 'tret' instead of treated. It's pretty much standard usage. 'Sen' for 'self' is another. As in "Do it yer sen"
I always check my earl. I do warsh my car... with wooder.
Lemmee ast ya this: jever go up the mall? Or down the shore?
I prefer to go down the ocean, hun.
Kul! I live in Kettering!!!
(I know, completely out of line with this thread---sorry!)
Here's a good Appalachian word combo: writin' stick
as in, "Kin I borruh yer writin' stick?"
other faves: vomick (vomit) and swolled (swollen)
No, not out of line at all. I'm really a Cincinnati girl so I'm still getting used to the culture of all y'all northerners up near Dayton.
One thing I'll tell you, y'all don't know what's good pizza. Everyone seems totally enamored of Marion's. Why the heck? It's not good! LaRosa's, that's some good pizza. ;)
Does Dayton have a dialect? I haven't heard any. Sounds kind of bland to me, after Cincy's blend of Appalachian, bluegrass drawl, and German.
My dialect, being from Pittsburgh?
You've probably heard of it, no matter where you're from.
Family flew out to Morgan Hill, CA for my brother's wedding in '04. The receptionist in the hotel lobby said, "Ah, you from Pittsburgh?"...doh.
Believe it or not, there's a
Wikipedia entry on it.
(I use most of the words in the 'vocabulary' section..lol)
Even when I think about it, I don't consider myself to be talking improper
english. I do catch myself, however, using "Yinz" and "N'nat"...:)
The
phrases page of Pittsburghese.com explains it very well. Say some of 'em out loud, and you'll get it.
Fstop (welcome btw) we have an old thread somewhere round here where people introduced themselves on video.
I'd love to hear your accent!
There is actually a literary term for this. It is called "eye dialogue" or "creative respelling," and I am thinking of using it for my master's thesis, if I ever get that far. :D
I just realized I made a mistake here. It's not "eye dialogue," it is "eye dialect." D'oh! Nothing like saying something dumb when you're trying to look smart. :rolleyes:
Here's the thread FStop.
Feel free to join!
My JrHS principal was from Pittsburgh. Her accent was so crazy most of us thought she was faking it.
No, my friend, no. It's quite...quite real. ;)
Furthermore, to get back to the wrong context thing....
bugs me when people use "your" instead of "you're".....:mad2:
Do you mean in written english or spoken?
I sometimes listen to Dennis Miller's radio show and he's from Pittsburgh. The other day they had a halting discussion of caulk, halting because Miller doesn't pronounce the "l" in the word. It was comedy gold.
I pronounce the l in "almond," but the rest of the world seems to leave it out. I never even realized I was saying differently until a few years ago, and now I have to think about it for a second before I say it out loud.
You'd be in good company here, most people seem to include the l and I'm in the minority for saying arrrmond.
In that case, maybe I can blame my weird-by-local-standards pronunciation on the few years I spent attending a British school. (Yay!)
Do you mean in written english or spoken?
I mean written. I know it's just a little apostrophe and an 'e'...but it just gets under my skin..
I sometimes listen to Dennis Miller's radio show and he's from Pittsburgh. The other day they had a halting discussion of caulk, halting because Miller doesn't pronounce the "l" in the word. It was comedy gold.
I don't pronounce the "l" either. My dad and I were working on installing a new shower in his bathroom a few months ago, and I don't know how many times I said, "Hand me that cockgun." :haha:
Even when I don't enunciate the L (though usually I do,) the words are still different for me: cock comes out "cahk" and caulk is more like "cawk"
Same thing with Duct tape. How many people just say Duck?
To drive it into the ground further, there's a company who makes it under the name "Duck Tape"...complete with a little ducky mascot.
Which makes me wonder if the general public even knows it's really 'duct'...
My favorite plumbing double entendre is "pipe dope" ...
I have a friend that, in a home improvement store, asked the associate (I swear...) "could you point me out your caulk" and didn't pronounce the "L" - he didn't figure out for days why the guy continued to laugh...
Spouse constantly "confuses" words - combines drowsy with groggy & he's usually "droggy" in the morning. He also says "prior before" which DRIVES ME CRAZY!
Qualifies totally for a double-take when you see it, too.
And don't forget, as well, creme for your crack.
Even when I don't enunciate the L (though usually I do,) the words are still different for me: cock comes out "cahk" and caulk is more like "cawk"
It's easy to tell apart here. I would say caulk as cawk, swallowing the l in the same way as I do in walk. The o in my cock is much shorter and sharper.
The o in cock is at the roof of the mouth, the o in caulk is pushed through slighlty pursed lips.
The o in cock is at the roof of the mouth, the o in caulk is pushed through slighlty pursed lips.
lol....I think we're getting almost a little -too- into the pronunciation of caulk..
Originally Posted by Flint
The OH! in cock is at the roof of the mouth, the o in caulk is pushed through slighlty pursed lips.
Fixed it for ya;)
i can see a team of archaeologists giving eachother high-five's in the year 3126 when this thread is found. "I told you Nigel, they DID use a silent L sound in caulk back when they spoke English! You owe me 500 pesos!"
i can see a team of archaeologists giving eachother high-five's in the year 3126 when this thread is found. "I told you Nigel, they DID use a silent L sound in caulk back when they spoke English! You owe me 500 pesos!"
Nice foresight, blending British names with Mexican currency. lol
yes, but the name will be pronounced nee he. they've combined spanish pronunciation with our affinity for silent L's, of course.
I sometimes listen to Dennis Miller's radio show and he's from Pittsburgh. The other day they had a halting discussion of caulk, halting because Miller doesn't pronounce the "l" in the word. It was comedy gold.
Sucking caulk....
*
*
Now
that's an esoteric vice.
I sometimes listen to Dennis Miller's radio show and he's from Pittsburgh. The other day they had a halting discussion of caulk, halting because Miller doesn't pronounce the "l" in the word. It was comedy gold.
It took me a while to work out why this was funny. Some Americans pronounce caulk the same as another word that shouldn't be said on air in the USA. I pronounce these words differently (even though I do not pronounce the "l" in "caulk" either), so the significance wasn't immediately apparent.
Americans with the cot-caught vowel merger do sound pretty funny sometimes to those of us who distinguish these vowels.
Walk, wok.
* When you walk a dog, you put it on a lead and walk around with it for a while.
* When you wok a dog, you cut it into small strips and fry it in hot oil with vegetables.
Stir-fried Fido, anyone?
And then there are those half-brights who pronounce the T in often.
Guess I'm only a half-bright then, I certainly pronounce it.
Me too. Sometimes. Mostly in fact. Indeed, most people I know do. Must be a dialect thing.
I wish I was like UG. It must be great to be able to so accurately judge people's intelligence levels and educational achievements based purely on their dialect/pronunciation, or grammatical errors.
Yes, why wouldn't you pronounce the t in often? Do you not pronounce the first r in February, and the h in what, where and when?
I uh- pronounce the t in often.
Well better half-bright than not bright at all! :)
England is a country of half-brights.
Near everyone I know pronounces the t in often, albeit in a swallowed kind of way.
I think you only pronounce it offen if you are really posh :P
The use of 'anxious' when the word should be 'eager' bugs the snot out of me. Yes, I know that some dictionaries now have that as one possible meaning. Writing guides still strongly recommend using them as originally defined.
I understand about the whole 'living language' argument. But it seems to me that, in cases like these, the language is the worse for it. Words that once had a precise and useful meaning are now more bland and less useful.
Hey, the living language embiggens us all.
The use of 'anxious' when the word should be 'eager' bugs the snot out of me. Yes, I know that some dictionaries now have that as one possible meaning. Writing guides still strongly recommend using them as originally defined.
I understand about the whole 'living language' argument. But it seems to me that, in cases like these, the language is the worse for it. Words that once had a precise and useful meaning are now more bland and less useful.
Oh oh oh...I hate it when someone uses "yet" when they mean "still" as in "Do you have that recipe yet?" What they mean to ask you is if you kept the recipe because they had given it to you last month, and wondered if you still had it in your possession.
Drives me batty.
Hey, the living language embiggens us all.
I don't consider embiggen or even ginormous to be an acceptable trade-off for the dilution of anxious.
It's obvious that I am rapidly approaching codger-hood.
I understand about the whole 'living language' argument. But it seems to me that, in cases like these, the language is the worse for it. Words that once had a precise and useful meaning are now more bland and less useful.
But anxious does have a precise, slightly different meaning when used in place of eager. I am anxious to ... as opposed to I am eager to... suggests a difference in how that anticipation is being experienced. Eager is a positive anticipation, anxious suggests that the experience is less positive.
Unless people are using it in a situation about which they are entirely positive.
But anxious does have a precise, slightly different meaning when used in place of eager. I am anxious to ... as opposed to I am eager to... suggests a difference in how that anticipation is being experienced. Eager is a positive anticipation, anxious suggests that the experience is less positive.
In that case, you are using it correctly. Well done, you.
Something along the lines of "I'm really anxious for summer vacation to start" would be incorrect, but is often used.
What if you interpreted that sentence literally instead of assuming a wrong meaning?
Then you would be like my husband, whose children are constantly frustrated when he deliberately misinterprets what they mean rather than just explaining what they should have said.
Then you would be like my husband, whose children are constantly frustrated when he deliberately misinterprets what they mean rather than just explaining what they should have said.
I like his method.
Compare it to, say, seeing dirty clothes on the floor*, close to the laundry chute. I *know* what was meant, the clothes are meant to go in the chute. But I *choose* to "deliberately misinterpret* the child's action, drawing attention to it, and having them fix it. My hope is not to frustrate them for sport, but to get them to correct it themselves.
Frustrating them gives them something to move away from. It's a tiny stick to complement the tiny carrot of doing it right the first time.
Say what you mean and mean what you say.
* used dishes in the sink next to the empty dishwasher is another common and apt comparison.
In that case, you are using it correctly. Well done, you.
Something along the lines of "I'm really anxious for summer vacation to start" would be incorrect, but is often used.
Not necessarily, it may simply indicate that they have a slightly negative orientation to waiting: it makes them feel impatient and anxious to anticipate something, therefore they are anxious for the Summer to start.
I *know* what was meant, the clothes are meant to go in the chute. But I *choose* to "deliberately misinterpret* the child's action, drawing attention to it, and having them fix it. My hope is not to frustrate them for sport, but to get them to correct it themselves.
How do you deliberately misinterpret the clothes on the floor? What do you say? Me, I say, "Put your clothes in the dirty clothes basket," and if the habit persists it gets pointed out with stronger methods and consequences. (For the record, so does Mr. Clod, I don't know exactly what sort of methods you're talking about here.)
By "deliberately misinterpreting," I'm talking about, instead of saying, "You mean to use the word 'eagerly' there, because 'anxiously' means more like...", saying something like:
"Well, that's funny, I don't know why you would be afraid of summer vacation."
"...What?"
"You know, you said you were nervous about summer vacation."
"No I didn't." (or more usually, we repeat the dumbfounded "...what?" cycle a few more times first.)
"Yes, because you said you were anxious."
And by then they mutter, "Yeah, okay, whatever," and don't actually learn what the mistake was, or worse, defiantly persist in using the wrong word, because they're tired of the passive-aggressive game.
Well, perhaps the analogy breaks down here. It works if you believe that the kid knows the right word, and also knows the right action (clothes/dishes). If we all know what the right usage is, and there's still misuse, then what's a parent to do to correct the error?
Why is the word being used incorrectly?
I see the dialog you use above as an attempt to use humor to instruct. I could be wrong. Is it just a passive aggressive game, where the adult is showing off? Then it's an *entirely* different problem, and language and vocabulary is just the weapon du jour.
I have a large vocabulary. I have been accused many times of talking over the heads of others for the punitive effect. Really? I'm just a windbag. ymmv.
Well, that's the problem--the intention is definitely humor, but the kids in question don't have a great sense of humor. They're constantly looking for the "trick" behind everything everyone says. My response is to be straightforward instead, his is to persist with the humor in the hope that they'll lighten up someday. We'll see.
All in all, I end up agreeing with V here. I've been asked before to dumb it down, and have firmly turned down every such request as ill advised, and shall always. If I write the English of an educated man, where's the downside in someone reading like one?
Requests to be as stupid as someone else thinks they need me to be I deny as a matter of course. Some people are lame enough to think this arrogant.
Well, that's enough with the splenetics.
Back at an older part of the thread, I was taught "offen" by simply everyone, parents and teachers alike. Pronouncing the T, while accepted by Webster's 3rd among others, seems to me unnecessarily affected. Affectation is usually unnecessary, come to that. Half-brights, I say, and I say it with confidence, DanaC. I expect I shall continue to twit you from time to time over your fits of notwithitness -- do recall which of us is the socialist at our age, and which of us is not. You aren't the one to shake me, try though you may.
Affectation is usually unnecessary, come to that. Half-brights, I say, and I say it with confidence, DanaC.
Am I the only one who sees the irony in that?
@ UG. It isn't affectation if it's the way you've been taught to say the word by everybody around you. It would be an affectation were I, or Sundae, to start pronouncing it
offen. In much the same way that it would be an affectation for you to start pronouncing it
often. You've just accused most of the British nation of being half-brights because they pronounce a word differently to the way you (an American) pronounce the word. What an utterly ludicrous position to take. Even for a man of your arrogance that is wholly preposterous.
I expect I shall continue to twit you from time to time over your fits of notwithitness --
I expect you shall. And I expect I shall continue to twat you from time to time over your fits of pomposity.
Well, I suppose you're the one who imagines the irony. Will that do?
I am anxious and eager to pick up my puppy today!!! Yea! Mostly eager....:D
I'm 100% with Dana on this one.
Actually Dana, pronouncing the t in often is not limited to brits...I don't think this has a bit to do with the Brit vs US dynamic.
Tons of US people do it that aren't half-brights or less. I think UG is aiming at offending globally.
Spotted in another forum, on a thread regarding Ike:
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UGH
Oh oh oh...I hate it when someone uses "yet" when they mean "still" as in "Do you have that recipe yet?" What they mean to ask you is if you kept the recipe because they had given it to you last month, and wondered if you still had it in your possession.
Drives me batty.
Do people where you live say "please" when they mean "what did you say?" I know it's a Cincinnati affectation - I do it, and yes, it causes problems when I'm on the phone with someone from another state. Just wondered how far away the custom goes.
Curious, though -- what do you say when you want someone to repeat something? "Huh?" "Pardon?"
Usually, I'll say either "say again", or "what was that sorry?"
We say either "wha?" or "fuckyousay?" ;)
To customers I say, "Could you say that again?", but to everyone else its "huh?"
I dont prounounce the 't' in often unless Im reading it, otherwise its awfin...as in 'how awfin do you go to the store?'
FStop - I think there some similarity between Pittsburgh English and the way people from Chi-Town talk.
Spouse constantly "confuses" words - combines drowsy with groggy & he's usually "droggy" in the morning. He also says "prior before" which DRIVES ME CRAZY!
I do the same thing, a lot. I also mix up phrases. I once said a can of beans when I meant a can of worms...:dunce:
I overheard some terribly terribly nice ladies who lunch the other day and they dropped the T in ofTen. They pronounced it "orphan". I thought of UG and laughed.
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Oh, that happens when all the Realtors in town go bugfuck, all together.
What, you hadn't heard?
Do people where you live say "please" when they mean "what did you say?" I know it's a Cincinnati affectation - I do it, and yes, it causes problems when I'm on the phone with someone from another state. Just wondered how far away the custom goes.
That may be drawn from other languages -- specifically, German and Russian both do it that way. Romance languages pick the word for "how" rather than "what," figuring
what to be flatly rude, and the Turkish uses an inquiring "M'lord?"
Orphan... okay, now this is beginning to resemble the first act of Pirates of Penzance.
"...O'fen-frequently only once!!"
Yeah, I'm in rehearsal. My first experience of G&S.
There may be a better thread than this one to resurrect for what I wanted to share, but I couldn't find it, so this will do.
I'm taking two online classes this quarter and they're always a rich source of funny typos and mistakes. I saw this one today and it made me chuckle. Maybe you will too. A little.
I work two jobs and go to classes. I am a very very orangized individual. I play tennis and watch movies in my spare time. Later.
I have some great scholarship application quotes from my old job. I'm not sure where my notebook is, but two that stand out in my mind are:
I want to major in medical assassinating.
and:
(end of a sentence.) Because I like to see things through and I never leave anything undone. (start of another sentence.)
My sis-in-law was one of my committee members (I was chair and she's VP of Development) and we probably laughed reading scholarship applications more than was nice. ;)