I will boycott the Olympics
I know my tiny little amount of spending power is not going to worry anybody, its the thought that counts.
I think the Olympic industry did some dirty dealing with China to get the games.
I think China should remove all restrictions on the Internet, I mean imagine how your rights would be impaired if you could not get access to , porn sites, The Cellar and just stuff like that.
No kidding I will turn it off from radio TV and I wont read about it in the paper.
The Chinese have plenty of access to the Cellar.
9 out of 10, of the spammers signing up, are in China
I won't be boycotting. I think the individual participants are more important than politics. However, the exposure to first world values has already got the Chinese thinking about their air quality and limited internet access.
If they could only get a handle on those pesky monks.
Me watching the Olympics isn't going to make one damn bit of difference to China one way or the other. I'm not going to be buying anything that is advertised, and besides, the money is paid already.
As to the effects of the exposure, I agree with Griff. Th eyes of the world are on them, and so far, the world has been totally bitching at them to get their shit together. I don't see that letting up once the games are over.
China is changing, and changing *fast*.
It's true that the Olympics are sponsored Episode, but there is never any adverising allowed at any of the venues. A stance that impresses me.
I believe the Olympics is about all nations putting aside their political differences and coming together in the spirit of good sportsmanship and fair competition. I am disgusted by those protesting the Olympics in China. Their own actions are more offensive than those of China's government.
I believe the Olympics is about all nations putting aside their political differences and coming together in the spirit of good sportsmanship and fair competition. I am disgusted by those protesting the Olympics in China. Their own actions are more offensive than those of China's government.
Radar, its a great thought in theory, but the reality is quite different. I do NOT oppose those who wish to boycott or otherwise protest the Olympics. The Olympics are being held in a communist state with an extremely poor history of human rights abuses, the failure to allow people to practice their chosen religion - Tibet being a great example - and on and on, ad nauseum. Allowing China to host the Olympics sends the message that it and its regime is welcome to take its place among nations that have high values of personal and governmental integrity. Here are some snips off a Chinese Human Rights site
www.hrw.org/englishwr2k8/docs/2008/01/31/china17604.htm:
Despite temporary regulations in effect from January 1, 2007, to October 17, 2008, that give correspondents freedom to interview anyone who consents, foreign journalists continue to be harassed, detained, and intimidated by government and police officials. The temporary regulations do not extend to Chinese journalists or foreign correspondents’ Chinese assistants, researchers, and sources, who continue to risk reprisals for violating government directives on taboo reporting topics.
Official efforts to rid Beijing of undesirables ahead of the Olympics have accelerated the eviction of petitioners—citizens from the countryside who come to the capital seeking redress for grievances ranging from illegal land seizures to official corruption. In September-October the Beijing municipal government demolished a settlement in Fengtai district that housed up to 4,000 petitioners.
Radar, aren't you a libertarian or something? Your glib reply in this thread makes you sound more of a republican to me.
Bruce, the Cellar may indeed get its share of spammers hoping to make a fast buck. This is not what concerns the Chinese government:
China’s system of internet censorship and surveillance is the most advanced in the world. Filtering, blocking, and monitoring technologies are built into all layers of China’s internet infrastructure. Tens of thousands of police remotely monitor internet use around the clock. The elaborate system of censorship is aided by extensive corporate and private sector cooperation—including by some of the world’s major international technology and internet companies such as Google, Yahoo, and Microsoft. Writers, editors, bloggers, webmasters, writers, and journalists risk punishments ranging from immediate dismissal to prosecution and lengthy jail terms for sending news outside China or posting articles critical of the political system. For example, Zhang Jianhong, former editor-in-chief of the Aegean Sea website, was sentenced to six years’ imprisonment on March 19 for “inciting subversion.”
Allowing China to host the Olympics sends the message that it and its regime is welcome to take its place among nations that have high values of human and governmental integrity.
To quote you, "its a great thought in theory, but the reality is quite different".
walmart/Wall Street, has already ushered China to a place at the table of movers & shakers.
Bruce, the Cellar may indeed get its share of spammers hoping to make a fast buck. This is not what concerns the Chinese government:
What concerns the Party in China, is remaining in control by any means at their disposal... the same as every other political entity in the world. Their lack of sophistication just makes them
seem more ruthless.
The party is not the most controlling government, when it comes to the internet. Check out the posts by
Billy. If he was complaining about the Party, or being critical of their tactics, I'm sure they would know and probably act on it. But, as long as their citizens are using the internet for something other than an instrument of protest, or embarrassment, against the Party, they have pretty much free access.
To quote you, "its a great thought in theory, but the reality is quite different".
walmart/Wall Street, has already ushered China to a place at the table of movers & shakers.
That doesn't mean they need stay there (although, I'm putting on my tinfoil cap if I think they're leaving any time soon). One can always boycott Chinamart whever possible. One can push one's representatives' in DC to pass different laws. One can do many things. If they'll work is another question. But we need to keep trying to be the hero's of own lives, or else some MBA or politician will jump in there and you won't recognize the sleezy face that peers out of the mirror at you every the morning.
What concerns the Party in China, is remaining in control by any means at their disposal... the same as every other political entity in the world. Their lack of sophistication just makes them seem more ruthless.
The party is not the most controlling government, when it comes to the internet. Check out the posts by Billy. If he was complaining about the Party, or being critical of their tactics, I'm sure they would know and probably act on it. But, as long as their citizens are using the internet for something other than an instrument of protest, or embarrassment, against the Party, they have pretty much free access.
I am in agreement with you that what the party cares about is control above all things. Those spammers probably have to grease the right political hand. Wouldn't surprise me a bit.
I've lurked here alot before starting to post, so I recall some of Billy's posts. I differ with you that refraining from speaking out against one's government is being allowed "freedom." The term is more closely described as reign of terror through enforced silence.
I never claimed the Party remotely considered giving the citizens of China, what presumably you, and admittedly I, consider "freedom".
But if you wish to rail about the Party's mistreatment of Chinese citizens, don't get off on the tangent of internet censorship. While we might deem that an important point, globally, you won't garner that much support, because internet censorship is more common than not.
...
The Olympics are being held in a communist state with an extremely poor history of human rights abuses
...
I strongly disagree with this statement.
I think they have a very rich history of human rights abuses.
I strongly disagree with this statement.
I think they have a very rich history of human rights abuses.
My bad. I had a couple glasses of wine when I wrote that. Quite a nice little Merlot as I recall. :D
I am disgusted by those protesting the Olympics in China. Their own actions are more offensive than those of China's government.
That idea is so totally divorced from the reality of Communist Chinese atrocities -- by policy, because totalitarian behavior only runs the gamut of degrees of bad -- that your use of "more offensive" amounts to crazy talk. Superior intellectual attainment, dear fellow, needs not to make silly remarks of this kind.
Notice I never do.
My mind is evidently better than yours, and the evidence does nothing but pile up, Paul.
Communists' behavior has been massively bad, from the beginning all the way to the end. That's one huge, industrial-scale heap of "offensive" to outdo, Paul, and you really shouldn't be trying to miscompare these boycotters' action with the proven savagery of Communist tyranny. Above all I caution you against trying to be the apologist for leftist tyrannies -- don't turn into tw right before our eyes.
I believe the Olympics is about all nations putting aside their political differences and coming together in the spirit of good sportsmanship and fair competition. I am disgusted by those protesting the Olympics in China. Their own actions are more offensive than those of China's government.
Yea, heaven help us if they should exercise a Right to Free Speech. But I guess China doesn't have the Bill of Rights so they should feel free to mow them down with machine guns and run them over with tanks. :eek:
I won't be watching the Olympics for the simple reason that it's boring as hell.
I believe the Olympics is about all nations putting aside their political differences and coming together in the spirit of good sportsmanship and fair competition. I am disgusted by those protesting the Olympics in China. Their own actions are more offensive than those of China's government.
The issue to me is not that the individual competition and sportsmanship should be squelched, it's the PLACE. How much revenue is going to pour into China? With the history of human rights abuses, why were they awarded the venue? Award, reward, whatever...it smells fishy to me.
Sure, let the games begin. But let them begin somewhere else. Surely there are other countries which would benefit from millions of dollars pouring into their economy? Or is this set up as a partial payment of all that the US owes China? :eyebrow:
The "think of the sportsmen" argument is quite short-sighted and really not what I'd expect from you.
Take a look at the CNN clip they are running today. All about how the young Chinese children are pushed from a VERY young age so they can compete, win and move on to a life that is "better for them".
Some of these kids didn't want to be pushed so hard. Walking on their hand for 3 minutes, followed by 60 crunches, followed by serious ab workouts. Shit....I couldn't do that. Even the look on their faces.
happens in the US too. and Canada, and france, and just about anywhere that kids have more talent than their parents have brains.
happens in the US too. and Canada, and France, and just about anywhere that kids have more talent than their parents have brains.
Lookout with your permission I might pirate that saying
Well, except in the US it's the parents pushing the kids and being overly involved. In China, the government takes the kids off to live (literally) at the gymnasium, away from their families.
The issue to me is not that the individual competition and sportsmanship should be squelched, it's the PLACE. How much revenue is going to pour into China? With the history of human rights abuses, why were they awarded the venue? Award, reward, whatever...it smells fishy to me.
Sure, let the games begin. But let them begin somewhere else. Surely there are other countries which would benefit from millions of dollars pouring into their economy? Or is this set up as a partial payment of all that the US owes China? :eyebrow:
The "think of the sportsmen" argument is quite short-sighted and really not what I'd expect from you.
How is this a short-sited argument? It's the very reason for the creation of the Olympics in the first place. China is hosting the Olympics because they promised to have brand new, state-of-the-art, facilities, and excellent security. China represents a very important nation of historical and cultural significance. They are as deserving of hosting the Olympics as America, or anyone else.
The Olympic committee isn't here to reward or to punish. They are here to find good venues for the Olympics that have an adequate amount of hotel rooms, security, transportation, etc.
How much revenue is going to pour into China? With the history of human rights abuses, why were they awarded the venue? Award, reward, whatever...it smells fishy to me.
China is spending an order of magnitude more money, then they are taking in.
It's a national ego trip, of the first order... a trip that countries are lining up to take themselves.
;)
I won't be watching the Olympics for the simple reason that it's boring as hell.
Really, Sheldon? All those hunky athletic types doing gymnastics, wrestling, etc? You wouldn't even have it on with the sound turned down?
China is spending an order of magnitude more money, then they are taking in.
It's a national ego trip, of the first order... a trip that countries are lining up to take themselves.
;)
It's true. One of the things people were calling for when Boris Johnson was elected Mayor of London was that he should refuse to hold the Olympics here (the bis was won under the previous Mayor, Ken Livingstone). Sadly, for the moaners, it was also backed heavily by a Tory peer, so it had cross-party support.
I'll find you some of the many, many negative opinion posts if you're interested. In fact Zen probably remembers it from the Sydney Olympics too. Hosting the Olympics is a very expensive business, and a very contentious issue (in a democracy).
Hell, you should have heard the complaints whrn America got the World Cup!
How is this a short-sited argument? It's the very reason for the creation of the Olympics in the first place. China is hosting the Olympics because they promised to have brand new, state-of-the-art, facilities, and excellent security. China represents a very important nation of historical and cultural significance. They are as deserving of hosting the Olympics as America, or anyone else.
The Olympic committee isn't here to reward or to punish. They are here to find good venues for the Olympics that have an adequate amount of hotel rooms, security, transportation, etc.
And air quality? :rolleyes:
k...point taken, guys! I see what you're saying.
Really, Sheldon? All those hunky athletic types doing gymnastics, wrestling, etc? You wouldn't even have it on with the sound turned down?
If they ever start wrestling in the nude like the original Olympics, I might tune it. ;)
Take a look at the CNN clip they are running today. All about how the young Chinese children are pushed from a VERY young age so they can compete, win and move on to a life that is "better for them".
Some of these kids didn't want to be pushed so hard. Walking on their hand for 3 minutes, followed by 60 crunches, followed by serious ab workouts. Shit....I couldn't do that. Even the look on their faces.
How is this honestly different from young girls that are pushed, squeezed, trained and made-up from ages as young as 3 to compete in beauty pageants right here in the US? Sure, some of them love to compete but you also see these same kids worried about being fat or hating how they look when not made-up and they aren't out of kindergarten yet. School takes second fiddle to dancing lessons, poise practice and exercise to lose that baby fat. 5 years olds that look damn near close to slowly-developing 16 year olds? Yeesh.
It's not. Stage parents living vicariously through there kids. Not all of them. Some kids do really want to do these things. It should never take the lead over school.
I didn't see the clip, but my assumption is that the pushing of the Chinese children that the CNN clip was about was on a larger scale, even sanctioned by powers-that be, than some stage moms (creepy) or living vicariously through such means as munchausen-by-proxy.
As I said, I did not get to see the clip, but is this the case? What I'm asking is: does the pushing of these children in China seem to be more the norm, the way of life, the status quo, for most families as opposed to the relatively few freaky moms who push the girls to beauty pageants or push the boys to be great football players, or else?
In a piece that I saw, the parent could only see the child for a few hours a week.
During half that time, the parent trained with the child.
as it should be. do you have any idea how well trained my players would be if i didn't have to deal with all the rest of the crap like school, family, fun...
Just remember that China is not the only country to have hosted an Olympics who treats their athletes this way. Remember Germany and Russia, just to name a couple, both have had if they don't still have very similar programs.
yeah, but they aren't yellow so we can forgive them a bit.
well, that's not the only reason. there eyes are shaped right too, so that helps.
I see
Ali, you might want to recalibrate your irony detector.
(At least I really hope so!)
Yeah, it's completely disoriented.
[COLOR="Silver"]Get it? Nyuk nyuk nyuk...[/COLOR]
Ali, you might want to recalibrate your irony detector.
(At least I really hope so!)
Maybe you need to recalibrate your droll acceptance of irony detector? :)
Ok, let's synchronise our snickerometers ... one, two, three....
Where will we hold the next Olympics. North Korea? What if Mugabe is still in power then, do we reward him also? I don't remember Olympics ever being held anywhere in Africa. I could be wrong. The fact is, no matter how much the bloody Chinese pay for the Olympics, they wil be getting much more in return, not only in finance, but in propaganda and political capital. We are giving them legitimacy as a civilized nation, which they are not. Post Stalinist Russia never came close to the human abuse of the Communist regime, from their beginning til now.
Propaganda and political capital, yes. But they can't be making money on this Olympics.
If it weren't for the slave labor, getting ready would have bankrupted them. :haha:
Where will we hold the next Olympics. North Korea? What if Mugabe is still in power then, do we reward him also? I don't remember Olympics ever being held anywhere in Africa. I could be wrong. The fact is, no matter how much the bloody Chinese pay for the Olympics, they wil be getting much more in return, not only in finance, but in propaganda and political capital. We are giving them legitimacy as a civilized nation, which they are not. Post Stalinist Russia never came close to the human abuse of the Communist regime, from their beginning til now.
What do you mean "we"? When you ask where "we" will hold the Olympics and whether or not "we" should reward Mugabe. The Olympic committee is an international body of people who seek out the best location to hold the Olympics, and whether or not you like China, they've got a great venue, and they are as worthy of hosting the Olympics as America, England, France, Australia, or anyone else.
The U.S. Government is just as guilty of as many human rights violations as China, especially in Iraq, Cuba, etc. We aren't in a morally superior position to pass judgment on others and even if we were, the Olympics isn't a political arena. It's the opposite of a political arena. It's where nations put aside their political differences in the spirit of competition.
Those who would make outrageous claims comparing Mugabe to China or who want to stain the Olympics with their inane drivel are a disgrace.
I blame the IOC for being mercenary heartless bastards, while I expect that from the Chinese the IOC should be above that.
I think the IOC have been bought out, at the cost of the integrity of the Olympic games.
So Radar - you think the US is as bad as China?
WHAT? :eek:
Seriously, I wonder. Seems nothing is sacred and above being bought or politically influenced. My cynicism isn't completely unfounded, I'm sure.
So Radar - you think the US is as bad as China?
Good and bad are relative terms. I say the United States is every bit as guilty of human rights violations and bullying other nations as China and the U.S. has no moral superiority over China. America was once the most free nation on earth. China has never been known for freedoms, yet in some ways they are more free than America, and in some ways America is more free than China.
The IOC's decision to host the games in China was fair, reasonable, equitable, and was most certainly not the result of bribery or coercion.
~snip~
The IOC's decision to host the games in China was fair, reasonable, equitable, and was most certainly not the result of bribery or coercion.
How are you so certain? Did you ask?
So is anyone really boycotting these games?
There have been plenty in the past of course but I wonder how the 1936 Berlin Games would be remembered if they had, justifiably, been boycotted. Surely everyone has seen those newsreels featuring Jesse Owens - I wouldn't want to be without those.
I know my tiny little amount of spending power is not going to worry anybody, its the thought that counts.
I think the Olympic industry did some dirty dealing with China to get the games.
I think China should remove all restrictions on the Internet, I mean imagine how your rights would be impaired if you could not get access to , porn sites, The Cellar and just stuff like that.
No kidding I will turn it off from radio TV and I wont read about it in the paper.
I'm a chinese, I could get access to The Cellar, porn sites and just stuff like that :cool: So your reason to boycott Olympic is not adequate. ;)
Every country has its own restrictions -- laws are restrictions. China does have some unreasonable restrictions, but China is developing and no one is perfect, right?
Rights of Chinese people are seriously impaired? You gotta be joking.
I agree with you, aliasyzy. But I also think Shanghai is hardly representative of China in general.
Of course that's the biggest problem about making generalizations about China, and the Chinese people. The country is HUGE. Just the change in climate, from north to south is staggering. There are crowded cities, uninhabited deserts, and everything in between.
Now the common thing is the National government, but I've read the regional governments have a lot of power, causing different rules (laws) in different regions. Of course we foreigners only hear what the Party is doing on a national level, national policy I guess you could call it, and yes, the western press zeros in of the negatives. But then again, your press is not exactly forthcoming.
So forgive us our ignorance, for we have been coached in our view of China. Better yet, please enlighten us with the truth about life in China.:D
Good and Evil, typical mode of civilization. :)
We US are good, They Chinese are evil: It's right and noble to exert our power on them and destroy them.
I don't think pumping hundreds of billions of dollars into China's economy, will destroy your country. :headshake
I agree with you, aliasyzy. But I also think Shanghai is hardly representative of China in general.
Of course that's the biggest problem about making generalizations about China, and the Chinese people. The country is HUGE. Just the change in climate, from north to south is staggering. There are crowded cities, uninhabited deserts, and everything in between.
Now the common thing is the National government, but I've read the regional governments have a lot of power, causing different rules (laws) in different regions. Of course we foreigners only hear what the Party is doing on a national level, national policy I guess you could call it, and yes, the western press zeros in of the negatives. But then again, your press is not exactly forthcoming.
So forgive us our ignorance, for we have been coached in our view of China. Better yet, please enlighten us with the truth about life in China.:D
There are problems in almost every aspects of China. It's a big country and it's still a poor country. Like you said, making generalization should be careful.
I just want to say that people all over the world are the same: selfish, cowerdly and greedy. You can choose to understand others and work out a way to co-exist, or you can picture them as evil and fight them.
-------------
I'd like to answer questions about China. I may not be correctly informed, but I could provide another angle to view China.
I don't think pumping hundreds of billions of dollars into China's economy, will destroy your country. :headshake
Pumping money surely won't destroy a country. (who knows, If it's a finance conspiracy, maybe it will.)
what i mean is: Good and evil game will cause a bigger game called war.
I just want to say that people all over the world are the same: selfish, cowerdly and greedy.
I don't agree with that generalization about people anywhere. Sure, there are some that fit that mold in any society, and unfortunately that's the type of people that are driven to power and wealth.
Although I have no scientific empirical data to prove it, I believe that most people, everywhere, just want to get along with their neighbors and take care of their families.
The people you described, the people I think seek power, do their best to capitalize of people's natural fear of the unknown, fear of people and cultures they don't know.
Now I'm far from a cockeyed optimist but my experience is, of the many people I've met, while I don't like all of them, once I know them, I don't fear them.
....what i mean is: Good and evil game will cause a bigger game called war.
A US-China war won't happen. We both have too much to lose, and the money men won't allow it. :D
I don't agree with that generalization about people anywhere. Sure, there are some that fit that mold in any society, and unfortunately that's the type of people that are driven to power and wealth.
Although I have no scientific empirical data to prove it, I believe that most people, everywhere, just want to get along with their neighbors and take care of their families.
The people you described, the people I think seek power, do their best to capitalize of people's natural fear of the unknown, fear of people and cultures they don't know.
Now I'm far from a cockeyed optimist but my experience is, of the many people I've met, while I don't like all of them, once I know them, I don't fear them.
Being selfish, cowardly, and greedy is not absolutely bad. it's just what we are. One can always use better words to tell the same story.
Everybody seeks power. Get along and take care of families surely need power. Without power, can we sit comfortably in front of an LCD and chat like this while some people on the earth have to worry about their next meal? If you lose the power to sustain your current life style, will you try to get it back?
Moreover, how much is enough? Even if US citizens reduce their living standard by half, their life will still be like a heaven to at least 60% population of the world. Will people do so to spare some resources in building a better world? I'm not critical of US, because blind consumptionism is now all over the world.
I should take a moment to welcome aliasyzy to the Cellar, and to offer congratulations on your excellent English, sir. I hope the Great Firewall of China doesn't ever give you trouble with contacting big-nosed Americans.
I should take a moment to welcome aliasyzy to the Cellar, and to offer congratulations on your excellent English, sir. I hope the Great Firewall of China doesn't ever give you trouble with contacting big-nosed Americans.
Every time I speak with big-nosed Americans, Mr. and Mrs Spank will pay a short sharp trip to my botty land :dedhorse: :D
Oops, the doorbell is ringing. Noooooooo!!!!
Everybody seeks power. Get along and take care of families surely need power. Without power, can we sit comfortably in front of an LCD and chat like this while some people on the earth have to worry about their next meal? If you lose the power to sustain your current life style, will you try to get it back?
OK, I follow you. We both, apparently, enjoy a lifestyle more comfortable than much of the world, that is struggling just to survive. I agree that many, make that the majority, are suffering from blind consumerism.
Maybe it's my background, or age, but the world around me has varied considerably, with subsequent adjustments on my part. Granted I was never starving, but I've always said, "Anything more than a cave and a brontosaurus bone to chew on, is luxury". I still believe that, but I suppose few would agree with me.
Yes, if I lost my current lifestyle I'd try to get it back, but not by taking it from someone else. I would only become aggressive if someone tried to take my cave or bone... or PC. :haha:
I watched both women's beach and women's traditional volleyball today. Good lord, those women are hot.
Boycott scantily clad, athletically built babes? No way.
Nice to meet you aliasyzy:)
I understand that we have a very skewed view of China over here. I also understand that people are people wherever they are. I find the Chinese government's stance on Falun Gong to be rather more extreme than many other governments' stances on similarly troubling internal issues. That is not just the skewed western view of China. There is strong evidence of live harvest donation from Falun Gong prisoners. That is not the same the world over.
Nice to meet you aliasyzy:)
I understand that we have a very skewed view of China over here. I also understand that people are people wherever they are. I find the Chinese government's stance on Falun Gong to be rather more extreme than many other governments' stances on similarly troubling internal issues. .....
I don't know much about the details of Falun Gong, but my points of view could represent quite a few people in China.
1. I've seen some video clips Li Hongzhi, head of Falun Gong, made for his followers. Full of crap like "I'm the avatar of buddha, believe in me and practice Falun Gong, you will be healthy, happy and go to heaven." To me, Falun Gong is a cult. ("cult" maybe a little too negative. I don't know the exact word to describe it)
2. About live harvest donation, I downloaded a report written by two US lawers from the official website of Falun Gong(banned in China. I know some tricks to get me through). The report pretends to be objective, but the accusation is based on guess/induction. To me, it's more like a sentimental portray of evil communist party than a objective report.
3. Possibility of live harvest donation (my judgement/guess)
small scale 60%
large scale 5%
You said there is strong evidence, so my estimate may be a little ridiculous.
4. If live havrest donation existed, who to blame? Communist party? Central Government?
Believe me, such horrible things(if they existed) have nothing to do with central government. No government will allow things like this, because such atrocity undermines the foundation of the whole society.
Based on my experience, if there is live harvest donation, it should be related to the corruption of local prison or police(esp rural areas), gansters, human organ trafficking group.
The central government at that time may not even know, province or local governments surely would choose to cover such a disgraceful crime.
5. Why Li Hongzhi or Falun Gong keeps accusing communist party or central government? First, the central government banned Falun Gong. Second, is there any other way more convenient to get support in US?
6. My grandfather in law was once a Falun Gong learner. Never heard of any Falun Gong followers put in prison in Shanghai. However, there is a high possibility that dedicated Falun Gong followers were treated unfairly in some less developed areas.
If you know Chinese, you could visit the Chinese language wiki site of Falun Gong (banned in China)
http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%B3%95%E8%BD%AE%E5%8A%9F Note: not english wiki of Falun Gong, they are different!
I get the link from google. I think it's relatively objective. It will tell you the chronicle of Falun Gong and how it was banned in China.
Unfortunately I have no knowledge of Chinese. The infor I have on Falun Gong isn't from wiki, it's from the small Falun Gong refugee community over here and Amnesty. The evidence I've seen includes personal testimony from a group petitioning for my support (the women spoke with an interpreter, so I can accept that actual direct interaction was limited), several reports including some American, Canadian and German submissions, most containing photographic evidence.
I accept your point about the difference between Shanghai and the more rural areas. I also accept your point that it is difficult to say for sure where culpability lies. But, the evidence I've seen is highly suggestive of this being something sanctioned at a high level.
I don't know what the truth is. You don't know what the truth is. It's an interesting, if slightly disturbing, question to ponder though :P
Thanks for not taking offense at my post. I am not coming to this from an anti-Chinese stance. I have had a good deal of interaction with people claiming abuse and persecution due to their practising Falun Gong, hence it is a subject that interests me.
Unfortunately I have no knowledge of Chinese. The infor I have on Falun Gong isn't from wiki, it's from the small Falun Gong refugee community over here and Amnesty. ......
I've seen some photograph evidence you talked about. But I'm not convinced. I have to admit I don't trust sources from a "cult" and a braggadocio leader. Money could buy everything.
Well, It's my prejudice.
I can't imagine any plausible motive if high level people had ever persecuted superstitious citizens.
The central government seems never inspected and responsed those accusations -- definitely a bad habit. You are right. I don't know the truth.
I know what's not true and try to guess what's true.
Sometimes I think, Ohh, bad bad bad Chinese government for persecuting the Falun Gong people.
Sometimes I think, Why doesn't OUR government have enough nerve to shut down the Scientologists, on grounds of being a money-making mind-manipulating member-harming evil cult?
Then I get confused and shut up.
Sometimes I think, Ohh, bad bad bad Chinese government for persecuting the Falun Gong people.
Sometimes I think, Why doesn't OUR government have enough nerve to shut down the Scientologists, on grounds of being a money-making mind-manipulating member-harming evil cult?
Then I get confused and shut up.
I think you can say that about any religion.