March 9, 2008 Amazing Chopper Pilot
This photo was taken by a soldier in Afghanistan of a helo rescue mission. The pilot is a PA National Guard guy who flies EMS choppers in c ivilian life. Now how many people on the planet you reckon could set the ass end of a chopper down on the roof top of a shack on a steep mountain cliff and hold it there while soldiers load wounded men in the rear??? If this does not impress you ... nothing ever will. Gives me the chills and a serious case of the vertigo ... I can't even imagine having the nerve . much less the talent and ability ... God Bless our military!!!!!
You should see some of the videos of pilots flooding the back of the chopper so a seal team can drive their boat right up into it.. nuts but extremely awesome.
That is amazing. God bless these talented folks who take risks like this every day to protect us.
True, except they weren't evacuating wounded troops... they're loading captured Taliban that were holed up in that house.
I think the helicopter deserves some credit as well...
That reminds me, I have to build 90 of those particle screen separators for the front of the engines. I hate that job, itchy fiberglass dust.
When I was in the Navy we had an operation called a HIfer (I think, damn it's been 25 years now) While the ship was steaming at around 20 knots a helicopter would hover alongside and refuel. It was very odd to be moving along and look to see a choper motionless 40 feet away. This is a cool shot though...
@ Bullitt, this one?
[youtube]ZfoYqa9eqPs[/youtube]
Todays post from a different angle.
I thought that this maneuver was pretty audacious too.
also that video was extreme.
I think that's the average day for an helicopter pilot in Afghanistan. It's not like they have heliports there :)
Or roads by the way =)
Pro-war or against, anybody must admit those photos are awesome!
High-res source pleaaaase? This would make a great wallpaper....
Thank you.
Todays post from a different angle.
I thought that this maneuver was pretty audacious too.
also that video was extreme.
Been there, done it. I flew the middle seat, a small seat right behind the 2 pilot seats in the Chinook, while we did a tandem NVG refuel from a in flight tanker and circled. Rotars seemed like they were 10 feet from the back of the tail of the AC fueler. A bit un-nerving. Those guys are very good. Did a few tail gate jumps from them as well.
That is amazing. God bless these talented folks who take risks like this every day to protect us.
Not to get overly political or preachy here... but - they're not really protecting America at this point. More along the lines of protecting America's political and economic interests in the region.
And don't get me started on the 'God bless' angle. Wait, too late. Religion is one of the most frequent reasons human beings wage war on each other. Nice architecture tho. :)
Not to get overly political or preachy here... but - they're not really protecting America at this point. More along the lines of protecting America's political and economic interests in the region.
.... but you did.
This is Afghanistan, right? Taliban were active participants re: 9/11 re: letting Osama have safe haven. Taliban are a bit of a resurgence lately in some part of Afghanistan. We're actively targetting the Taliban. His original comment re: protecting America holds just fine.
Can we keep the pointless political shit-slinging to a minimum amigos.. kthnx
High-res source pleaaaase? This would make a great wallpaper....
Thank you.
Sorry I don't have the source, I stole them off a game developers blog, which I saw before this post, which was why I found the IOTD post strangely familiar...
I found the IOTD post strangely familiar...
Yeah, that particular picture is familiar. I'm pretty sure it's been posted or linked to here on the Cellar in the past year or two.
Boy, you never know which image will stay a while either here or on the web.
Taken by a Public Affairs type on another chopper.
Snopes has this one from 12/03 and loading not wounded but APUC, an acronym for Afghan Person Under Control.
Another way of saying kidnapped sucker on the way to Gitmo.
Boy, you never know which image will stay a while either here or on the web.
Taken by a Public Affairs type on another chopper.
Snopes has this one from 12/03 and loading not wounded but APUC, an acronym for Afghan Person Under Control.
Another way of saying kidnapped sucker on the way to Gitmo.
Actually, another way of saying "Another Piece of Ugly Crap" who won't be murdering anyone for a while.
Another way of saying kidnapped sucker on the way to Gitmo.
Give it a break dude, those guys are 10th Mtn. Div. soldiers doing their job. They were not "kidnapped", they were captured.
http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/nov2003/a111703e.html
http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/nov2003/a111703f.htmlFinally! Finally there's a place on the web where people can argue about war, religion, and politics.
My vote is that we all back off and enjoy the pics. Of course it's a free country. My sincere thanks to all the veterans who made it that way, and all the volunteers in the armed services who keep it so.
Best,
Tick
Wow am I tempted to jump in to the frey.
Must....not....begin...to....express..my....opinion......
whew
great pic! I think the pilots got the easy part. What about the poor dudes on the roof hoping the wind doesn't gust? That's a sucky spot to be.
Like ole General Patton used to say...at least they ain't shovlin shit in Louisiana!
It would take a big wind gust, which admittedly can happen at any time in those mountains, to push that Chinook around.
I watch them hovering over the flight pad, right next to the Delaware River, where the wind is often strong and capricious. They are rock steady in most of it. Of course kudos to the Boeing test pilots, too.
Oh, and
Kiowa pilots are pretty good, too.
Whether we're right or wrong to be over there, there's no question that those fuckers have balls the size of blimps, and they're doing the job they signed on to do. And doing a bitchin' fine job of it for the most part.
I've ceased to be a fan of the War, but I'll never stop admiring the people who are sent there to fight it.
true warriors are rare. I know I'm not one. They accomplish amazing things at times, and guide the fates of millions with their actions. One man can alter the outcome of a battle. that battle can alter the outcome of a war. that war can alter the outcome of a civilization. ETC...... it's the real fucking world, in any case.
Go, goodguys!
I second that! - well put Jim
Damm LJ that was almost poetic.
That is amazing. God bless these talented folks who take risks like this every day to protect us.
I'm sorry, what are they protecting us from? Pretty sure there's no Taliban 'round here...
I'm sorry, what are they protecting us from? Pretty sure there's no Taliban 'round here...
And you would be the first in line to whine when we had no one.
And you would be the first in line to whine when we had no one.
No one what? No one to protect me from the Boogie Man?
Don't get me wrong - I'm glad we have the armed forces - it gives us a place to send the psychopathic killers that are smart enough or white enough to stay out of prison. Just don't try to justify their existence by claiming that we're being "protected" from something. It's been a really long time since any foreign forces set foot in the US, and I, personally, am armed enough and man enough to defend myself.
It's been a really long time since any foreign forces set foot in the US, and I, personally, am armed enough and man enough to defend myself.
OK, so you have enough firepower to kill any foreign soldiers who set foot on your property. That's great. How's that going to help you when they shut off the power, or stop the food deliveries?
How's that going to help you when they shut off the power, or stop the food deliveries?
Wow, you guys have some really active imaginations. But let's say, for the sake of argument, that something like that happens. There's no one in the US to help, anyway. Both the regular military *and* the national guard are overseas, killing millions of furriners/spreading democracy. California can't even cope with wildfires, because there are so few NG in the US. So, you tell me: if the fit hits the shan over here, who's gonna be here to take care of things?
Perhaps I misunderstood your post. I thought you were saying that we don't need a military because you are well armed.
I was pointing out that just because you may have enough firepower to control you immediate vicinity does not mean you have enough to protect your way of life.
You don't live anywhere near Manhattan, do ya, mbrutsch
[size=1]it's ok you can tell us[/size]
protect your way of life.
Interesting choice of words. As far as the military is concerned, protecting US soil should be their *only* purpose. Whenever someone points out how we go around the world to other countries and kill their citizens so we can take their resources, the pat response is "we need the military to protect Amurrca!" Can you, without looking it up, name the last time that the US military was used to repel foreign invaders on US soil? Anything beyond our borders is hegemony, pure and simple. I think my "way of life" is much more threatened by fundamentalist Xtians, billionaire CEOs and corrupt elected officials than any of the regions we've invaded overseas.
You don't live anywhere near Manhattan, do ya, mbrutsch
[size=1]it's ok you can tell us[/size]
No, "Occupied Northern Mexico" refers to Texas. I'm not from here, however, and the locals are actually a pretty scary bunch. I don't think anyone's lining up to protect me from *them*, however.
Can you, without looking it up, name the last time that the US military was used to repel foreign invaders on US soil?
That's easy. WWII. Japan invaded Alaska and attacked Hawaii.
That's easy. WWII. Japan invaded Alaska and attacked Hawaii.
I was speaking of the actual United States, not the various floating specks of land around the world that we've claimed are ours, usually at the expense of the people who live(d) there.
Hawaii didn't become a state until 1959 (not that that keeps us from claiming it). But I'll give you Alaska. I'm sure the huge civilian populations of the Aleutian Islands were grateful for the assistance of the military in repelling the invaders of their homelands. Oh, wait. WE were the invaders of their homelands. Never mind.
I think you're stretching to make a point, but technically, you're correct. So it's been 60 years since the last invasion. Tell me again why we need the world's largest and most expensive military force?
:cool:
Nice try, but you didn't answer my question. Do you perhaps work for a huge, multinational defense contractor? Or own a bunch of their stock? Or are you just fond of seeing dim-witted American kids come home in boxes?
So it's been 60 years since the last invasion. Tell me again why we need the world's largest and most expensive military force?
Because it's kept us from being invaded... for 60 years so far, which, lo and behold,
is the last time we didn't have the world's largest and most expensive military force.
[COLOR=Blue][COLOR=DimGray]Of course, that's one of the oldest jokes ever written.
Girl: Why do you keep clicking your fingers when we walk around?
Guy: It keeps the tigers away.
Girl: There aren't any tigers around here.
Guy: It's working![/COLOR]
[/COLOR]
Because it's kept us from being invaded.
Wow. I bet you believe that, too. :headshake
Wow. I bet you believe that, too. :headshake
Are you always a fucking idiot or do you just play one on here?
Are you always a fucking idiot or do you just play one on here?
Are we really going to resort to name-calling? I suppose that a mercenary who can't shoot his guns at something must resort to shooting off his mouth. Why don't you go salute something, or invade something, or whatever it is paid killers do when they're bored?
California can't even cope with wildfires, because there are so few NG in the US.
How about you shut the fuck up and sit down because you don't know shit about any of that, how does that sound pal?
The reason wildfires have been getting bad in recent history is because of two things: overall dryer weather, and an incorrect method of overzealous wildland firefighting used in the past which allowed a huge amount of unburnt fuel to accumulate. Wildfires are natural and good for the forest ya dim-wit. The national guard doesn't even do a majority of the wildfire fighting, ever heard of the Forest Service and it's related agencies?
Are we really going to resort to name-calling? I suppose that a mercenary who can't shoot his guns at something must resort to shooting off his mouth. Why don't you go salute something, or invade something, or whatever it is paid killers do when they're bored?
You are the one shooting off your mouth. Sorry, retired now, I let the others carry on the good work.
;)
How about you shut the fuck up and sit down because you don't know shit about any of that, how does that sound pal?
The reason wildfires have been getting bad in recent history is because of two things: overall dryer weather, and an incorrect method of overzealous wildland firefighting used in the past which allowed a huge amount of unburnt fuel to accumulate. Wildfires are natural and good for the forest ya dim-wit.
Didn't you know that was the primary job of the National Guard? Putting out wildfires? Of course it's not.
Tell me again why we need the world's largest and most expensive military force?
To hunt and find people like you so you can rot in Gitmo along with your brothers. :lol2:
Didn't you know that was the primary job of the National Guard? Putting out wildfires? Of course it's not.
:rolleyes: Who woulda thunk it
How about you shut the fuck up and sit down because you don't know shit about any of that, how does that sound pal?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/05/11/MNGRIPPB2D1.DTL
Wow, you are really quite the wordsmith, aren't you? Now put down the Pabst, turn off Springer and maybe, just maybe read something besides the sales ads for Wal-Mart, you foul-mouthed, inbred, ignorant spreader-of-genital-pestilence. This really *is* The Cellar, innit?
[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes: Who woulda thunk it
Yea, this idiot would have them cutting his grass if he had his way. I prefer they just continue to do what they do best, just like the original pics at the start of the thread. We use to work with Air Guard every time we flew, those guys and girls are top knotch. Damm good professionals worth every dime and they are paid pennies.
I let the others carry on the good work.
Like raping civilians, throwing puppies off cliffs, and killing over a million civilians? I'm sure all of them were terrrrists, so it's OK. Now you and Bullitt go rub each other down; you're both getting pretty lathered up here.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/05/11/MNGRIPPB2D1.DTL
Wow, you are really quite the wordsmith, aren't you? Now put down the Pabst, turn off Springer and maybe, just maybe read something besides the sales ads for Wal-Mart, you foul-mouthed, inbred, ignorant spreader-of-genital-pestilence. This really *is* The Cellar, innit?
[/QUOTE]
YEA! SFGate what a fucking liberal used tampon that paper is... :lol2:
Like raping civilians, throwing puppies off cliffs, and killing over a million civilians? I'm sure all of them were terrrrists, so it's OK. Now you and Bullitt go rub each other down; you're both getting pretty lathered up here.
I don't condone the actions of few fucked up people, but hey they world is filled with them, I mean you are here and all so they must be everywhere.
few fucked up people
Wow, a few people killed a million Iraqis. Pretty impressive. Like y'all's vocabulary.
Wow, a few people killed a million Iraqis. Pretty impressive. Like y'all's vocabulary.
What a tool. Have at it dick weed. Note use of ignore button.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/05/11/MNGRIPPB2D1.DTL
Wow, you are really quite the wordsmith, aren't you? Now put down the Pabst, turn off Springer and maybe, just maybe read something besides the sales ads for Wal-Mart, you foul-mouthed, inbred, ignorant spreader-of-genital-pestilence. This really *is* The Cellar, innit?
[/QUOTE]
Good grief save it buddy. I'm guessing you haven't even heard of the Incident Command System, or the National Wildfire Coordinating Group have you. I just finished my federal wildland firefighter training through the Department of Natural Resources, with additional local and national level ICS training through FEMA, so unlike you, I know what the hell I'm talking about.
Oh and I'm more of a Jack Daniels guy than Pabst ;), and I don't watch TV.
What a tool. Have at it dick weed. Note use of ignore button.
I certainly hope that everyone here isn't as ignorant and illiterate as you two. But I'm glad to see you can muster the intellectual wherewithal to push a button. Hey! Look! An Ay-rab! Git 'im!
I just finished my federal wildland firefighter training through the Department of Natural Resources, with additional local and national level ICS training through FEMA
Ooh, suuuure you did. And I'm the new adjutant for Stargate Command. I hope that FEMA training works out for you, seeing how flawlessly they usually handle natural disasters. Go get'em, tiger!
:headshake
I can post my ICS training certs too if you'd like sweetie.
And here's mine. You're not the only person with Photoshop.
This is just getting hilarious. Here, I'll go take a picture of myself with it taped on the front of my shirt haha. Be back in 5.
Like I said, I'm a Jack Daniels guy. :D
Like I said, I'm a Jack Daniels guy.
A "start drinking before noon" Jack Daniels guy, judging by your conversation. Lemme go find a color printer, and I'll print mine out, and tape it to a pudgy alcoholic, and post a picture thereof. That'll prove something, right? I'm guessing logic is not your forté.
Notice the bottle hasn't even been opened.. it's for my going away party this weekend since I'm leaving to go *gasp* fight wildfires in Wyoming.
Weren't you whining about name calling before sweetie?
I could take pictures of all of my course materials too if you'd like, I'm having a ball with this. Where would you like them taken, on top of my sleeping cat? Suggestions?
The reason wildfires have been getting bad in recent history is because of two things:
overall dryer weather
Have you heard of global warming? No? Buy a house in the mountains and wait a couple of years =)
Give it up Bullit, the little kid is probably working for ELF lighting the fires you guys have to put out. Glad we have professionals like you to do the good work, just like my mates in the 10th Mountain. Carry on.
Yep, "don't feed the trolls" and all that.
Thanks Merc :thumb2:
the little kid is probably working for ELF lighting the fires you guys have to put out.
Well, I'm 45, but I'm sure you know more about "little kids" than I do. I'm sure you know that most of those fires are started by drunks tossing lit cigarettes and attention-seeking closet-pyromaniac firefighters with anger issues. Anybody know one of those?
my mates in the 10th Mountain.
He calls me sweetie, you've got "mates" in the 10th Mountain...is that Brokeback Mountain, by any chance?
Weren't you whining about name calling before sweetie?
Just the fact that people whose vocabulary is smaller then their manhood must resort to coarse language when their supply of wit runs out. Didn't take long for you two. But, being the types that prefer violence over anything else, it's not surprising.
I could take pictures of all of my course materials too if you'd like, I'm having a ball with this.
I'm glad you have at least one ball.
Where would you like them taken, on top of my sleeping cat? Suggestions?
How about the back of your mom's head?
You have fun starting fires in Wyoming this weekend. Maybe you can burn some eye-rackees while you're at it.
I think it's pretty funny that you labeled your certificate "internet troll."
Did you realize what you were saying there?
I think it's pretty funny that you labeled your certificate "internet troll."
Did you realize what you were saying there?
Ya think? You guys are a barrel of laughs. It kinda makes sense that the guy who was smart enough to drop out first is the one who noticed the certificate. :D
mbrutch
Far be it from you to do any name calling.
http://cellar.org/showthread.php?p=371865#post371865
Oh please.
xoxoxoBruce quoted a huge list of stereotypical generalizations, then pointedly asked,
"did I miss anyone?" I merely replied with a
well-established stereotype (not established by
me, thank you) that his list didn't include. That was an honest response. When I trolls, I trolls.
Besides, as a Scot myself, I can't say that I haven't found the occasional sheep attractive. ;)
Oh, and my name has an s. pudcon. :p (Not trolling
you here, spudcon. Your name's just funnier without an 's' than mine.)
I had to add the s on mine, because I kept getting panties and room keys thrown at me.
Looking at this line of BS, someone must feel a lot better than me, or have a worst life than I. :bolt:
Looking at this line of BS, someone must feel a lot better than me, or have a worst life than I. :bolt:
Both of the above
Is it "namecalling" when the terms are accurate?
Only if you're politically correct.
I'm sorry, what are they protecting us from? Pretty sure there's no Taliban 'round here...
Dumb c|_|nt:
This is Afghanistan --- and the Taliban are there who told Bin Laden: "yes, please plot against the Americans, we will offer you safe harbor".
Jacka$$.
Dumb c|_|nt:
This is Afghanistan --- and the Taliban are there who told Bin Laden: "yes, please plot against the Americans, we will offer you safe harbor".
Jacka$$.
I don't where
you are, Komrade, but this here's America! As far as your alleged Taliban quote, I'm sure you heard them say that yourself, right? Or are you just mindlessly regurgitating some crap you heard on FOXnews? Now git on back to work - there's a spill on Aisle 4.
I don't where you are, Komrade, but this here's America! As far as your alleged Taliban quote, I'm sure you heard them say that yourself, right? Or are you just mindlessly regurgitating some crap you heard on FOXnews? Now git on back to work - there's a spill on Aisle 4.
ohhhhh I see, a Ron Paul supporter! Your conspiracy theories are calling, please put on your tinfoil hat to channel their communication. But don't let the satellites listen in on you, paranoia underground bunker man!
ohhhhh I see, a Ron Paul supporter! Your conspiracy theories are calling, please put on your tinfoil hat to channel their communication. But don't let the satellites listen in on you, paranoia underground bunker man!
From what evidence did you construct that theory? I don't do politics, period. Only stupid people, or people with an agenda, participate in politics. I'm guessing you don't have an agenda. The only conspiracy I see here is the one between your parents to hide the true facts behind your obvious congenital impairment. Man, your fantasies are pretty telling. Did your Mom forget your meds?
To Cellar: I'm sorry that my 1st post on your site must contain profanity, but this guy is truly irksome. To All but mbrutsch: I salute you. To mbrutsch: Your a pinko-commie-bastard. You and your kind are going to be the death of this great nation. You are minions of the suicidal, nihilist, fascist, elite who have far more grand and sinister plans for this world than you obviously can possibly imagine.
The really sad part, I think, is that you truly believe you are in the right and doing good for society at large. Nothing could be further from the historical truth.
I hope for your sake that one day(judging by your posts, you might unfortunately be one of the hopeless ones), if it's not too late, you might come to your senses.
Until then, you sanctimonious prick, fill in blank:____________.
M Butt-shush:
Thanks for leaving the politics alone. You don't even troll competantly, so I think your choice there is for the greater good.
Just a pointer for the future -it's quite easy to search Bullitt's recent posts and see that he has talked about his wildfire-fighting training from the get-go. Flaming is more effective when your audience doesn't know that your victim is telling the truth. HTH
competantly
Did you mean:
competently?
so I think
[Citation needed]
Just a pointer for the future -it's quite easy to search Bullitt's recent posts and see that he has talked about his wildfire-fighting training from the get-go.
Well, duh. That was obvious to everyone, which make the lengths he went to to "prove" it even more humorous. Hell, I almost had him photographing his course materials on his cat!
Flaming is more effective
No, now you're confused. Flaming is when you insult someone, like
this. I insinuated that he was a liar, in order to provoke a response. It worked. That's trolling. Look it up. :thumb2:
That's trolling. Look it up.
Why? Why do you troll? Boredom?
You now have zero credibility here, and the only strong responses you are getting are from newbies who haven't clued in.
But you keep coming back. What are you looking for?
Why? Why do you troll? Boredom?
Why do people respond? But seriously...
I didn't start off trolling. I just asked a question that some milheads didn't like, they immediately became belligerent (shocking), and it was "on", as the kids say.
the only strong responses you are getting are from newbies who haven't clued in.
monster's got over 4500 posts.
But you keep coming back. What are you looking for?
When someone replies, and addresses me, I respond. That's all. Like Whack-A-Mole.
I just wanted to post once and thank you, mbrutsch. At first, I was reading your posts and figured you sincerely believed your argument...however, as the debate progressed, I now realize you were simply having a laugh at some of the other Cellar-dwellers.
Thanks. I smiled when I recognized it...although I'm sorry to see you've carried it so far as to anger some of the others. Congrats at leading me on for a while too, I was reading and wondering how the hell this guy could really believe that. Now I know - you really don't! :D
(where's the rofl icon? I need one!)
:stickpoke
I'm glad you had your fun mbrutsch. Condescending people won't get you far around here, just fyi. Ask about rkzenrage for a good example of such a situation.
Oh so if we never address "Mr. Butthead" (whatever) again - he/she won't post anymore?
-
-
-
Thanks - problem solved.
My cousin got back back from one of his tours in Afghanistan about 4 years ago and showed me a picture of that very event! Couldn't believe my eyes when I saw it on here - and it has become famous on the net as well now. I'll have to ask him about it again!
Did you mean: competently?
[Citation needed]
Well, duh. That was obvious to everyone, which make the lengths he went to to "prove" it even more humorous. Hell, I almost had him photographing his course materials on his cat!
No, now you're confused. Flaming is when you insult someone, like this. I insinuated that he was a liar, in order to provoke a response. It worked. That's trolling. Look it up. :thumb2:
hook, line, and sinker ;)
Robsterman1, calling Robsterman1, troll in aisle 1.
all thunked out
A long time ago, apparently.
A long time ago, apparently.
OMG! that is SO FUCKING HILARIOUS! God, you're a wit!
I love dickless wonders--keep posting! Someone, somewhere, will find you amusing---probably an anti-Semite Euro rastafarian trash heap, but, hey---take what you can get, big guy.
Oh so if we never address "Mr. Butthead" (whatever) again - he/she won't post anymore?
-
-
-
Thanks - problem solved.
Thanks mate. I was thinking I was going to have to call some of my buds from the day and have them reach out and tap him. Good work.:blush:
Didja hear dat, mrbrutsch? We will never address you again. Seriously. Well, except for this time. Then, we will never acknowledge your existence again. Don't look at us as though you're being acknowledged. Quit it. Ah said quit it. Oh, shoot, I'm still addressing you. Darnit, can't get the hang of it. :lol:
Thanks mate. I was thinking I was going to have to call some of my buds from the day and have them reach out and tap him. Good work.:blush:
Bring it on, gunsucker.
OMG! that is SO FUCKING HILARIOUS! God, you're a wit!
Thanks. Oh, wait, you were being sarcastic.
I love dickless wonders
And they love huge cunts - y'all must get along well.
Hmmm..... So what kind of dog should I get?
I've always been partial to Huskies, though watching "I Am Legend" turned me on to German Shepard's.
You need Amazing Chopper Dogs, of course.....
They're not chopper dogs, these are chopper dogs.
thanks guys - this is better than that other thread we.... nevermind.
Of course chopped dogs would be more of a Friday IOTD, right?
They weeded out the blind paratroopers, because they kept landing on their dogs.
as a non-US-citizens this discussion/dispute was really exciting to follow and gave interesting insights.
maybe you know the latin saying: "in vino veritas" - translated: drunk people tell the truth. same goes for a certain degree of agitation. words and facts come out that normally stay inside.
I come from a country that started WWII and - thank god - lost it. So I think it is not my right to judge or evaluate who is right or wrong.
It is interesting that loser-nations of WWII (Germany, Austria, Italy, ...) and their citizens behave very differently than winner-nation (US, UK, Russia, F) in terms of aggression, defense, fight against terror, fight for power and ressources,…
- just a little comment :) - definitly NOT wanting to start the discussion again.
Interesting observation, rupip. It makes me wonder if the attitude of the people of the nations that lost, is because they lost, or why they lost?
I´d definitly say because they lost.
in school and every-day life we - im 34 now - learn that something like the NS (nazi)-regime or WW2 must never ever happen again. in every german or austrian family there are stories of grandfathers and uncles being killed or having killed.
there is something like a collective guilt, a strong awareness of our families (fathers, mothers, grandfathers/mothers) having started or participated or at least not been able to prevent a regime that killed millions of people and started a war that killed 50- 60 millions.
And millions of peoples died in our own or neighbouring countries - so the felt impact is much higher than fighting abroad - with no civilian death at home.
coming to Iraq: 100.000 dead and millions starving and living in fear somewhere on this planet is much easier to handle than at home. (and I am not saying they had a better life before!)
maybe that makes the difference between winner and loser-countries.
but enough for now - it is hard to discuss such topics on a forum, even harder if it is not your mothertongue that you are using...
It may be difficult, but you've done a damn good job of explaining your point, clearly and concisely.... thank you.