Immigrants "stealing our jobs"
You can't take a job that isn't being offered to you. A job isn't something you can take by force, like grabbing a TV after you smash in the shop window. How curious, to discuss this as if an invading force is battling to gain our territory. Whereas in fact, we've rolled out the red carpet for them.
Slow, steady, quiet, over time, combined with the collapse of other major employers and industry, you never know what you lost til its gone.
Yes, but it isn't "taken" (by them) it's "given" (by us). You can't take a job.
Yes, but it isn't "taken" (by them) it's "given" (by us). You can't take a job.
No it is given by
them to
them by
those who want to avoid the
costs associated with hiring legal workers.
Right. It isn't an "invasion" of immigrants "stealing" our jobs.
Right. It isn't an "invasion" of immigrants "stealing" our jobs.
Right. They have already invaded or are still trickling in, daily, by the hundreds, and they can't steal something being offered. That is why the Federal government has inacted laws to punish, harshly, companies that fail to check documentation.
If I leave a package of cookies on my counter and I come home to find a trail of ants consuming it, what should I do?
A) Think: "Oh golly, look what I've done. I've given sustenance to these poor creatures who have less than me. I should just let them stay. I'm sure they add more than they detract from my home."
B) Remove the incentive for their entrance (the cookies) and rid my house of the invaders.
C) Be indecisive because neither choice is perfect so therefore I do nothing.
C) Be indecisive because neither choice is perfect so therefore I do nothing.
Well we have tried that approach for the last umpteen years and look(out) where that got us.
You don't blame the ants, you blame whoever left the cookies out.
No, you kill the ants with ant killer and destroy the queen. Then you go buy some more cookies.
Leaving open food packages out on your counter, and then having to soak the counter down in ant poison every day, isn't exactly the ideal solution, though, is it? Put the goddamn cookies away and the ants will not have a reason to come into your kitchen anymore.
Blaming is for soundbytes. Solutions require that we move past that and figure out what to do.
Removing the incentive: tossing out the cookies, or brutal penalties for an employer knowingly employing illegals.
Removing the invader: kill or otherwise dispose of the ants, or remove illegals through attrition.
Prevention: Remember not to leave the damn cookies out anymore and plug that hole they came in through, or revise immigration policy to make legal immigration easier and more attractive than illegal immigration.
It really isn't that hard if people would stop the rhetoric of "you're a racist" and "illegals are from the devil". The politicians profit by keeping us in our current state of disfunction.
No solution can begin until we shut the borders tight. Then we can begin to deal with the issue, what ever way we go.
shutting the borders tight is the beginning of the process of attrition. illegals go home to visit all the time, closing the borders will make it much harder to get back. It will make it more difficult for new illegals to get in.
Enforcing harsh penalties on employers who knowingly employ illegals will remove the incentive to cross the border. (arizona now revokes business licenses for anyone caught employing illegals)
Fixing the immigration system will allow for more legal immigrants to gain entrance into our system. They can have the jobs and we can know who they are.
And they can pay their fair share of taxes. We can document them and if we want send them home. I still say we bill their host countries to pay for their hospital stays and prison/legal costs.
nah, if they are here legally then they are part of our system and should be treated just like everyone else. Legals should have every courtesy extended. Illegals get nada.
Hey, I was just wondering...do you know how your family got to America, Merc? Was it through the Bering Strait? Or by boat or something...and it had to be a legal immigration, cause god knows there was no such thing as illegal immigration at the turn of the 20th century!
so that's the tired old comment you want to drag out for your entrance to this thread? nice fresh. now would you care to actually comment on the issue being discussed or are you content to just snipe at those with an opinion?
well someone has their panties in a bunch today. I'll leave the thread. And btw I'm legal, so I don't need national guard escorting me.
No, don't take the easy way out, stay and add something to the discussion. Stop and think about the issue and actually put a solution out there that is more indepth than the last thing you overheard in the student union.
I'm not the most adept or interested concerning the issue but I'm for legal immigration, not locking down the borders and kicking out the illegals right now. Don't forget there is a percentage of illegals from Canada and Europe streaming in through the northern border.
Reasons not to kick them out: hospitality, restaurant, and landscaping industries would collapse. Not like there would be a shortage but those motherfuckers would fall from the sky. Construction would be heavily wounded. Just collecting them all and dumping them south of the border will do more harm than good. I'm not sure of the best solution is nor am I the most informed on the issues but it is not purging ourselves of illegals.
:rtfm:
Did you read this thread or did you just pop in to drop a retort to what you assume must be the solution white guys must come up with for the immigration issue?
NO ONE in this thread said anything about driving a paddy wagon around to drop them all to the other side of the border. NO ONE said that all illegals were mexican. NO ONE said anything about keeping immigrants out.
Now how about actually reading the fucking thread before you respond? And here's an idea - actually think through the issue yourself before you post, I'm certain you are capable of coming up with a better answer than the shit you hear regurgitated on your campus.
but I'm for legal immigration
that's deep. Kind of like
I'm for change, or
I believe in hope. Quit listening to and regurgitating the shit spouted off on campus and actually think these things through.
No, you kill the ants with ant killer and destroy the queen. Then you go buy some more cookies.
No solution can begin until we shut the borders tight. Then we can begin to deal with the issue, what ever way we go.
My posts are in response to what Merc posted. Dude you need to chill out and not think we all get our info from the student union. Your panties are knotted so much, calm down. I said I'm not the most knowledgeable but then you go and scream at me for being a dumb college kid. Lighten up, mang.
If I leave a package of cookies on my counter and I come home to find a trail of ants consuming it, what should I do?
You're equating illegal immigrants, who are human beings regardless of their legal status, with an infestation of ants now?
No, I'm presenting a situation for illustrative purposes.
Cookies are an incentive for ants to enter my house. Jobs are an incentive for illegals to break the law and enter my country. I certainly don't suggest we start spraying raid in random illegals' faces. That would just be rude.;)
Damn right it would ! :P And that would spoil America's worldwide reputation for friendly folksy welcomes.
I think we're fairly welcoming to people who are here legally.
Although I do reserve the right to shoot you if you look different. Different than what you ask? That's for me to know, so you just watch your step.
I think we're fairly welcoming to people who are here legally.
I wasn't kidding about that worldwide reputation. Everybody I have ever heard talk about visits stateside have commented on how freindly people were.
We're just trying to have sex with you.
I wasn't kidding about that worldwide reputation. Everybody I have ever heard talk about visits stateside have commented on how freindly people were.
I think that might have something to do with the fact that no matter how much we bitch and moan, most americans are privileged to have a pretty ok life. well that, and American men have huge genitalia. It makes us happy, and our women even happier.
*books a flight stateside*
Damn right it would ! :P And that would spoil America's worldwide reputation for friendly folksy welcomes.
I don't think that is an important fantasy that needs to be perpetuated.
Hey, I was just wondering...do you know how your family got to America, Merc? Was it through the Bering Strait? Or by boat or something...and it had to be a legal immigration, cause god knows there was no such thing as illegal immigration at the turn of the 20th century!
I know they came her through a legal process via Boston for one side, and via the Mayflower on another, others through Ellis Island, all through a legal immigration process.
You're equating illegal immigrants, who are human beings regardless of their legal status, with an infestation of ants now?
Certainly not, the ants belong here.
You can't take a job that isn't being offered to you. A job isn't something you can take by force, like grabbing a TV after you smash in the shop window. How curious, to discuss this as if an invading force is battling to gain our territory. Whereas in fact, we've rolled out the red carpet for them.
First, there is no such thing as an "illegal immigrant" in America. 100% of federal immigration laws and even the immigration department itself is unconstitutional and therefore null and void.
I agree with you about jobs not being stolen. Jobs belong to whomever the employer chooses to hire out of those willing and able to perform the duties of the job at the agreed upon salary.
I have the right to hire anyone I want from anywhere I want with or without papers and no person or group of people, regardless of their number or what they call themselves...including "government" has any legitimate authority to force me to do otherwise.
When the English, Dutch, German, Irish, French, Italians, Africans, etc. came here, they just had to show up on a boat and they were welcomed with open arms and given the opportunity to live, work, and contribute inside America.
I know they came her through a legal process via Boston for one side, and via the Mayflower on another, others through Ellis Island, all through a legal immigration process.
The federal government is not granted any authority over immigration by the U.S. Constitution. The legal process is just to show up.
Certainly not, the ants belong here.
Even ants are immigrants. And earth worms. And bees. And diseases. We need more quotas.
I know they came her through a legal process via Boston for one side, ...
Legal only because no restrictions existed (except for Chinese). Did TheMercenary again forget to mention that part?
Today, with so much hate, some would attack evil immigrants. Conveniently forget how laws have changed to discriminate ... and call that good. So again, it’s all about 'good verse evil'. The good guys can even forget a few facts - and rationalize who are the good guys?
Of course they came legally when immigrants were welcome - when the good guys did not hate. How do we know? Good must always triumph over evil immigrants.
Legal only because no restrictions existed (except for Chinese). Did TheMercenary again forget to mention that part?
Today, with so much hate, some would attack evil immigrants. Conveniently forget how laws have changed to discriminate ... and call that good. So again, it’s all about 'good verse evil'. The good guys can even forget a few facts - and rationalize who are the good guys?
Of course they came legally when immigrants were welcome - when the good guys did not hate. How do we know? Good must always triumph over evil immigrants.
Don't know much about the process at Ellis Island do ya?
Even ants are immigrants. And earth worms. And bees. And diseases. We need more quotas.
:lol2: You crazy mad Ted.
We do a lot of work with Indian tribes. Several times I've gone to meetings and seen someone wearing a
t-shirt with a picture of Geronimo, Yahnoza, Chappo and Fun with the text "Homeland Security - Fighting Terrorism Since 1492"
~snip~ well that, and American men have huge genitalia. It makes us happy, and our women even happier.
I don't think that is an important fantasy that needs to be perpetuated.
:p
Ibram posted the picture I was thinking of. Maddox's stance makes a lot of sense too, force companies to pay every worker, illegal or not, minimum or above minimum wage and the incentive to higher illegals lessens. That is obviously idealistic though.
Immigrants are not taking American jobs, they are over-competing us for them. I really don't see this as anything more than a flaw or downside in the free market system. Foreign workers are willing to work for less pay than most regular Americans so companies and corporations, that make decisions based on profit, will obviously hire the immigrants, a lot of times illegal, over American workers.
In order to solve this problem, assuming that we want to legal American citizens to have jobs over illegals, Americans will either have to be willing to out compete the illegals, stop the illegals or immigrants from coming into our country, create more jobs, or allow state intervention.
Besides disagreeing with forcing Americans to out-competing the illegals on a socio-economic level, it will bring down the standard of living for the working and middle class and make the rich even richer, something that I cannot imagine being good for the economy or society in general.
I am very ignorant in this field but I'm pretty sure creating jobs is not easy and has some major drawbacks to it but not sure.
I am against creating a wall or blocking up the border because I see it as unrealistic. The cost of it is enormous, some estimates up to a million to ten million a mile [1] and will need constant upkeep. Besides that, the elite (the rich, CIA, etc) will not allow it.
That comes down to state intervention, which can be seen by either forcing equal pay to all workers, even illegals, or cracking down on companies that hire illegals. The first solution is good, but if you are going to do that you might as well do the second and we have seen that the second idea hasn't been working well because of reasons seen in the last paragraph.
The best idea I have is that we don't build the wall, open immigrant restrictions which will lower the amount of illegal immigrants because I am willing to bet most immigrants were breaking the law on a rational decision so if given the opportunity, they will come in legally. This obviously doesn't solve the problem but it at least will ease it. Besides that, trying to increase state intervention on companies or corporations or trying to stop illegal immigration at the source would help as well.
[1]
http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/feb2007/db20070226_045720_page_3.htmI didn't see any differentiation between legal and illegal immigrants in the OP?
Merc and L123 introduced that concept.
seems to me Fresh's comments were perfectly valid. you're all so hung up on illegal immigration that you forget the legal type exists and then go on the attack to hide your embarrassment resulting from the faux pas, as far as I can tell.
So what are we talking about here? legal/illegal/are they all the same? (radar, your answer is taken as read) We came here to take a job that was offered to us. We stole nothing. But the only reason we could is because y'all don't train enough engineers with the right expertise. So to go back to the ant analogy, you get the cookies, put them on the counter, but then have no idea what to do with them until the ants arrive and show you what to do. Then you get mad at them. wtg!
And while you're ranting about immigration, remember that these days it goes both ways. You may not admit it, but you'd be fecking pissed off if you went to a country that needed your expertise and they refused to let you work -even for a pittance- because you were American. You stop legal immigration, you're going to lose the ability to emmigrate too. You can't be a world superpower if your citizens can't work in other countries.
Fair enough. Flint didn't explicitly say "illegal" immigrants in his initial post. His original post was about the people complaining about immigrants. Who hears complaints about legal immigrants? The only complaint I hear about legal immigration is that it is too hard because of all the hoops people have to jump through. So, from my point of view the discussion was intended to discuss illegal immigrants who come in and take jobs that they have no right to have for the very simple fact that they are here illegally. I think that if that wasn't the subject that Flint was bringing up he might have corrected the misconception somewhere around the 2nd or 3rd post rather than waiting for you to do it several pages later.
I made no faux pas, so from that point I have no embarrassment about what was a very measured calm discussion until Fresh showed up with his insightful analysis, er excuse me - his tired old "you're an immigrant too" smartass snipe. I didn't lay into him because he doesn't have a right to his opinion but because he trotted out the same old BS that people throw on the table to cast the anti-illegal immigration argument as a racist's folly. A point that I addressed at length in my response to a PM he sent me.
So if you can drop the indignant act for long enough to reread the thread you'll realize that at no point were legal immigrants chastised, ridiculed, or even addressed as anything other than a welcome part of our society. In fact if I recall correctly I think my post stated that a crucial part of any solution to the illegal immigration problem is a complete overhaul of the legal immigration system; an overhaul to remove the hoops and obstacles for those seeking to legally enter this country. That is my opinion on the issue and I've had very little change in that view for years. But thanks for selectively reading and interpreting the early posts in this thread and getting your panties in a twist. When you get them untwisted take my following comments with the heartfelt sincerety that I write them with:
Welcome. Glad you're here. Thanks for being a contributing member of the US.
I believe that we need some measure of control over who comes into this country. Doesn't virtually EVERY country do that? I mean once that measure is taken and we control our own borders... who comes in, for how long, why.... this all becomes a different issue. Doesn't it?
From what I've read some favor no change at all - leave things as they are. Others want to build/fashion a wall so that we can CONTROL OUR BORDERS. Whats the big issue with that? They are our borders - right?
Some people seem to equate controlling the borders with preventing another 911 - thats just political rhetoric & is not gonna work. :2cents:
nothing selective about it, mate, that's you that is. You (general not specific use of the word) may not mean to include legals in your rants, but you do. Almost all legislation that comes in to prevent/deal with illegal immigration only hurts the legals. A bit like the frequent gun rant on here that tougher legislation serves no purpose because the criminals are already using illegal weapons and don't care......
People say immigrants when they mean illegals only. The problem is they legislate that way too. And it's the legals who get hurt. Again and again. Yes, I jumped through all the hoops to be here. I pay my taxes. But the US still wants the monkey to dance some more. New legal immigrants now can't get driver's licenses. No driver's license = no life. Why is this? Oh, yes, the paranoia that the illegals (who have never been entitled to get licences) will use this as a way to make their existance legal. or get a pilot's license for taking off purposes only....... yep, I'm ranting, I'm entitled. (But stop salivating over the thought of my panties in a twist -I only ever rant nekkid ;) ).
...Just minutes ago -the last thing I was doing before I opened this thread- I came across an essay competition about global warming that my daughter would have enjoyed entering. But she can't because she's not a US citizen and the prize is a US savings bond. What harm would it do for a non-citizen permanent resident to own a savings bond? She can't even enter and forego the prize, apparently.
I have no problem with legal immigration. Illegal immigrants are the problem.
Exactly. Come on in! In numbers! Just sign the guest book when you arrive.
This software engineer has been underemployed while H1B visas were all the rage. I don't care. If there was a good job doing Linux work in Britain I would certainly go there.
Immigrants are not taking American jobs, they are over-competing us for them. I really don't see this as anything more than a flaw or downside in the free market system. Foreign workers are willing to work for less pay than most regular Americans so companies and corporations, that make decisions based on profit, will obviously hire the immigrants, a lot of times illegal, over American workers.
and the people that hire them are breaking the law. They should be held accountable.
In order to solve this problem, assuming that we want to legal American citizens to have jobs over illegals, Americans will either have to be willing to out compete the illegals, stop the illegals or immigrants from coming into our country, create more jobs, or allow state intervention.
Or selectively toss them out and make them come back through legal means.
Besides disagreeing with forcing Americans to out-competing the illegals on a socio-economic level, it will bring down the standard of living for the working and middle class and make the rich even richer, something that I cannot imagine being good for the economy or society in general.
Besides the fact that Americans are not going to work for less, esp as the economy tanks and the dollar falls as inflation rises.
I am against creating a wall or blocking up the border because I see it as unrealistic. The cost of it is enormous, some estimates up to a million to ten million a mile [1] and will need constant upkeep. Besides that, the elite (the rich, CIA, etc) will not allow it.
We don't need a real wall, just a virtual wall and the forces authorized to interdict and detain intruders. Where do you get off saying that the elite and CIA will not allow it? What are you talking about here?
That comes down to state intervention, which can be seen by either forcing equal pay to all workers, even illegals, or cracking down on companies that hire illegals. The first solution is good, but if you are going to do that you might as well do the second and we have seen that the second idea hasn't been working well because of reasons seen in the last paragraph.
Actually it works very well but the differences vary by state and local political pressure. Some states are willing to step up to the plate, some are not. Everyone needs to be on board with the same plan and level of enforcement.
The best idea I have is that we don't build the wall, open immigrant restrictions which will lower the amount of illegal immigrants because I am willing to bet most immigrants were breaking the law on a rational decision so if given the opportunity, they will come in legally.
Can you justify this thought are you just guessing. The rational decision to come here is purely economic. 1) it is easy to get in, and 2) they can make much more money here and send it back home.
This obviously doesn't solve the problem but it at least will ease it. Besides that, trying to increase state intervention on companies or corporations or trying to stop illegal immigration at the source would help as well.
I don't agree that it would ease it. There would be a flood. And the excuse that because the grass is greener on our side and my life would be better does not wash as a reason to enter illegally.
As for the fence, I guess I was wrong. Not wrong that it is not achievable, but wrong because the government bureaucracy is doing things the regular old way and allowing the contractors to screw it up and over charge without the appropriate oversight. The Brits had a great fence in HK and people still got through, but not many.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/27/AR2008022703747_pf.htmlYou don't need a physical fence across the whole southern border if you make the prospect of illegally crossing unattractive.
1) Penalize all employers who knowingly employ illegals by revoking their business licenses. That will cause the jobs to dry up for illegals.
2) Overhaul the legal immigration system making it easier to gain entrance for more people. This will prevent the collapse of industry that so many people cry about and will give potential employees a reason to follow the legal route.
3) Continue beef up the border patrol and drop all the BS about giving them paintball guns and radios. Arrest anyone caught coming across at unauthorized checkpoints. If they run, use whatever force is necessary to stop them. Down here most of the runners are carrying drugs and I'm sure it's the same elsewhere.
4) Take the handcuffs off LE agencies who currently do not turn over illegals to ICE.
5) Make the penalties for being caught here illegally really costly. Giving them a ride back to the other side of the border just doesn't cut it.
If our legal immigration system is changed so that most anyone with a clean history and an offer of employment can enter the country the benefits will be that we'll know who is here, where they are, and how long they are able to stay. With the knowledge that deportation is the result of breaking our laws or not having gainful employment, these fine folks will have every incentive to be fantastically positive members of our society. They will no longer live in fear of losing their jobs. They will no longer be limited to manual labor jobs where no records checks are done.
Illegal and legal immigration into the USA creates jobs. Go to SSRN or ScienceDirect and grab an article or two analyzing the effect of immigration on the job market.
or i could choose to actually look around me and see the effects in day to day life.
a legal and an illegal immigrant may each be able to do a job. the illegal may even be cheaper to pay. but that isn't the whole of the equation. the legal immigrant will pay taxes, drive with a license which will require them to have insurance, have a verifiable job and means of paying for any medical care they receive, the ability to actually come and go as they please thus eliminating the need for the coyotes who have gun battles and kidnapping wars in our cities, i'm sure there are one or two more benefits that a legal immigrant has over an illegal but I think you get the point.
Only two groups benefit from illegal immigration, 1) employers who want to exploit them, and 2) politicians who want to exploit you.
Illegal and legal immigration into the USA creates jobs.
as a separate point - what does this mean anyway? companies create jobs. immigrants regardless of status are just people to fill a possible job.
There is a lawyer in the office next to mine and her practice is mostly devoted to helping immigrants, so immigrants don't just fill jobs - they also create them.
fair enough. I see that as an attorney who created a job for herself simply by recognizing a niche market. she would still be an attorney if the immigrants weren't there. yeah, i know - semantics.
Are none of your clients immigrants of some sort?
I have one WWII warbride.
illegals can't invest. and i don't run into that many legal immigrants in a position where they would need my services.
...Just minutes ago -the last thing I was doing before I opened this thread- I came across an essay competition about global warming that my daughter would have enjoyed entering. But she can't because she's not a US citizen and the prize is a US savings bond. What harm would it do for a non-citizen permanent resident to own a savings bond? She can't even enter and forego the prize, apparently.
Quick update. I emailed them and apparently what they
meant was that entrants needed to have an SS#. So she is allowed to enter even though the rules say entrants must be US citizens. Now wait, who can't get ss#s? oh yes, that's right -illegals. Yet another situation where the two are lumped together for convenience. Now the question is, should I alert all legal residents that they can enter and dilute her chance of winning but prove a point....? :lol:
do what you want with the contest, but try this first. Go back and reread the rules to the contest. When you see US citizen don't read it as exclusionary or insulting. Realize that it is a positive - you are included with us.
Only in this instance, hon, and only because I spoke out. we are not US citizens (yet). It is exclusionary (is that a word?). Many situations make that very clear. Like voting and jury duty. here it was just an "lumping all together" type oversight and fortunately those in charge were big enough/responsible enough to realise that. But more often than not it's jobsworths enforcing these rules. I feel black.
the rules: (see #5)
http://www.recycleannarbor.org/pdfs/earth_day_entry_form_08.pdf
(they are changing the wording in future to omit this rule, as a result of my email)
Maybe you should have moved to Australia instead. Apparently it fucking rocks...
Reminds me of my white friends from South Africa who tried to get a scholarship for African Americans and were told they were not qualified when no where does it mention black skin.
Maybe you should have moved to Australia instead. Apparently it fucking rocks...
It does rock. :) It's getting to be a bit of a problem to find a house to live in though, so don't come if you aren't cashed up. ;)
not for a while now, but there have been a couple.
It does rock. :) It's getting to be a bit of a problem to find a house to live in though, so don't come if you aren't cashed up. ;)
I would love to have a go at it. First I have to get rid of these kids.
