Transgender Second Grader
Colorado.
The issue of being transgender usually pops up with students in high school. However, a 2nd grade biological boy wants to dress as a girl and be addressed with a girl's name.
"As a public school system, our calling is to educate all kids no matter where they come from, what their background is, beliefs, values, it doesn't matter," said Whei Wong, Douglas County Schools spokesperson.
Wong says the staff at one of Douglas County's schools is preparing to accommodate the student and answer questions other students might have. In order to protect the child as much as possible, 9NEWS has chosen not to reveal his school or other names that might identify the child.
"I see this as being a very difficult situation to explain to my daughter to explain why someone would not want to be the gender they were born with," said Dave M.
His daughter will be in the same class as the student.
The student had attended this same school in years prior, but had left to go to classes in another district for about two years. The transgender student will be returning to what is the child's home school. Dave M. thinks classmates will recognize the change.
"I do think that there's going to be an acknowledgement that 'Why are you in a dress this year when you were in pants last year?'" said Dave M.
Wong says teachers are planning to address the student by name instead of using he or she. The child will not use the regular boys or girls bathroom. Instead, two unisex bathrooms in the building will be made available. The school is handing out packets to parents who have questions. The packets contain information about people who are transgender.
"I think it is unusual," said Wong. "It's something we haven't had discussions about before. It's something that we haven't maybe really had to think about before, but now we will."
Family Therapist Larry Curry hopes the child and the child's parents are seeing a counselor just to be safe.
"I am very concerned because with the guidelines in place, this is a very early age," said Curry. "I don't know too many parents who are equipped to answer that kind of question or deal with it without some other support."
Kim Pearson says the family is getting support. She is the executive director of a national organization called TransYouth Family Advocates. The group has been working with the family and Douglas County Schools.
"Initially there was a lot of resistance," said Pearson. "Now, their position is they want this child to be safe in their school."
Pearson says their group is working with an increasing number of families nationwide who have elementary age transgender kids.
"We know that families are more comfortable talking about this," she said. "There was no place for parents to go."
Pearson says children as young as 5 years old are realizing their true gender identity and her group wants to help parents who may be resisting the acceptance of this.
"Parents are likely to think this it's a phase, but how long do phases last?" said Pearson. "With these kids, it's something that's very consistent."
That thought is not comforting to Dave M., who believes his daughter is not ready to think about the issue of being transgender.
"I don't think a (2nd) grader does have the rationale to decide this life-altering choice," said Dave M.
He is also unhappy with the way the school is handling this. The district has been preparing for the child's return to this school for months. Dave M. thinks other parents should have been made aware of this sooner.
"I just find it ironic that they can dictate the dress style of children to make sure they don't wear inappropriate clothing, but they have no controls in place for someone wearing transgender clothing," said Dave M.
Curry says parents like Dave M. should not bring the issue up to their students until they ask. However, he says parents should be ready to answer tough questions from the student's fellow third graders.
"I think reassuring them and letting them know that they'll be alright. Their classmate is alright," said Curry. "This is something their classmate has chosen to do. It is not contagious."
Pearson says the most important thing is to make sure the transgender student does not become the target of bullying or verbal abuse which can lead to suicide.
"These children are at high-risk," said Pearson. "Our number one goal is to keep kids safe."
Wong says mental health professionals will be available if students, staff, or parents have any concerns at all. She says the district views this as just another diversity issue and hopes everyone can accept and respect the student's wishes.
"Our staff has been briefed and trained to look for concerns," said Wong.
The family of the transgender student did not want to comment.
I've provided the link as well as the entire article, for those that won't link.
I'm confused by;
The student had attended this same school in years prior, but had left to go to classes in another district for about two years. The transgender student will be returning to what is the child's home school.
, but that aside, I find it hard to believe the parents and school would let a second grader make them jump through these hoops.
However, he says parents should be ready to answer tough questions from the student's fellow third graders.
Sounds like the kid went there for kindergarten, left in the middle of first grade, stayed away for second grade, and is now planning on coming back for the start of third grade. Maybe they even sent him off to another school for awhile with the specific hope that the other kids would "forget" him and make the switch easier.
What I don't really understand is the need to change his name--his name is his name, it doesn't make him a boy or a girl. To me it would seem that keeping his name would be more of a statement of 'this is who
I really am." Seems to me kids would have an easier time with "John likes to wear dresses" than pretending there's someone "new" in the class.
What hoops? Children are not inferior beings. It should hardly be an issue in these days of "sexual equality". No one has a problem with a girl wearing pants to school, do they? It's not like the kid's having his tackle chopped off.
So they're letting him/her use a different bathroom. And they've warned teachers. They would also warn teachers if the kid had AIDS or was recently bereaved, and give them guidelines as to how handle any awkward situations that may arise from these issues.
The only difference here is it's harder for the other parents to ignore the questions of their children about the world around them. Good. Dave M. needs to learn to face up to the responsibility of being a parent and all the tricky questions that brings. Blaming the subject of the question just emphasises his incompetance. If it wasn't this question, it would be another. How does he answer the questions about why the Amish dress funny and why the Downs syndrome kids "look funny"?
Admittedly my kids go to a school where we'd barely notice if a kid changed gender, but you can't demand that a child denies how they feel because it makes you uncomfortable. Parents who cannot handle it should look at alternate private education where they can surround themselves with only hand selected model examples of citizens. or home school like the rest of the freaks who can't handle the real word and should never have had children (note, not saying that all homeschooler fit that profile, but many people who do fit that profile, homeschool (and probably shouldn't))
I think I should stop now.
Clodfobble, it's not unusual for kids to want to change their names or be known by a nickname.
Sorry guys, but someone needs to take a hard look at those parents. Someone tell me that this kid is not going to be punching bag for the bullies of the world. This is unsafe. Are they going to let him use the little girls bathroom as well? How about wearing the dress into the little boys room? Something is not right.
True, but I can also tell you from experience that if the kids don't want to call you that there's very little you can do about it. Nicknames require social buy-in unless you have really never met the group of people before.
If he wanted a fresh start, why didn't the family just make one switch, and be the new person at the new school? :confused:
Are they going to let him use the little girls bathroom as well? How about wearing the dress into the little boys room? Something is not right.
RTFA :rtfm:
Sorry, I don't know what that means.
Read The Fucking Article
Which is to say, the answer to your questions is right there in the first post.
Sorry guys, but someone needs to take a hard look at those parents. Someone tell me that this kid is not going to be punching bag for the bullies of the world.
The child obviously has a very clear idea of how he/she wishes to express him/herself. I can't see that this is the parents' 'fault' in some way. It's not unknown for a child to have these kind of gender identity issues at such a young age, and frankly I get the impression the parents are handling it in about as open minded and fair way as is possible. Would you prefer that they enforce their own concept of his/her gender identity onto their child in order to help him/her fit in to school? Those days, hopefully, have gone, along with taking young children who've shown proclivities towards homosexuality to the psychiatrist for a 'cure'.
In terms of the child ending up as a punching bag for bullies....you can send a child who seemingly is absolutely just like all the other children in their cohort to school, and their classmates find something abotu them that's 'different'. It might be something as small as the way they walk, or a slight astigmatism in their eye....you could send a child with glasses to school, braces on their teeth, freckles or eczema, or a little extra weight on their belly and all these things could make them a punchbag at school. There may be no definable reason that you or I could isolate. They could just have the misfortune to come to the attention of the wrong kid at the wrong time and be marked out for the rest of their school years as prime target no.1.
I really don't know what to think about this. I do believe that genuinely transgendered people know from an early age, but I think if I were the parents, I would not encourage public disclosure at this stage.
The number of children born "intersexual" and the subsequent decision of a doctor to perform surgery (for aesthetic or social purposes) to "assign" a gender is much higher than many would ever know. This can lead to gender confusion, as you can guess; some kids notice it earlier especially in these days of much more openness about gender issues.
I don't find the article or issue all that surprising.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/collective/A843176A similar thing actually just happened at a junior high school near where I live. I was taking a class on U.S. "Social Policy" at the time, and we talked about the issue... how the school was dealing with it by sending a letter to all the parents explaining what was going on and offering pointers on how parents could talk to their kids about it.
Personally, I think it's great that the schools are being accomodating. Maybe some parents don't want their children exposed to things that they consider "abnormal," but the reality of the situation is that there is no safe place on earth where you can control 100% of a child's environment. (If you want to try that, homeschool. I was homeschooled by two working parents, it can be done. Course, I don't exactly thank them for it.)
The one thing that concerns me in cases like this is that 2nd graders seem a little young to fully understand the ramifications of changing gender... If you don't know anything about sex yet, are you really equipped to make that decision? Maybe this kid IS, maybe he'll never regret it.... or maybe in 6 or 7 years, he'll just realize he's gay and maybe likes to cross-dress, and not that he considers himself female.
Kids at that age don't understand the biological reasons for different genders other than that girls become mummies and boys become daddies. They're only just starting to be aware and ask for reasons why girls and boys have different bits - particularly if they only have same sex siblings and the parents aren't the sort to parade around the house naked etc.
I don't see why the children will ask anymore questions than, 'why does little johnny want to wear a dress?' and if a parent can simply tell the child quite calmly, 'because little johnny feels more comfortable in a dress', it probably wont go much further than, 'that's weird'. Of course, some parents might like to remind their child how they like to play dress ups etc, and that Johnny used to do that too but then realized he wanted to wear dresses more often...or something like that.
I really don't think it's a tough issue at all other than for the close minded. There are kids in most schools these days with same sex parents. Maybe other parents can avoid that issue, but if your kid happens to be friends with one of those kids, it become unavoidable very quickly. I know because it happened to our family. The kids certainly didn't seem to care though.
All these types of gender issues are fairly easy to explain to children if you can simply put aside your own predjudices.
The number of children born "intersexual" and the subsequent decision of a doctor to perform surgery (for aesthetic or social purposes) to "assign" a gender is much higher than many would ever know. This can lead to gender confusion, as you can guess; some kids notice it earlier especially in these days of much more openness about gender issues.
I don't find the article or issue all that surprising.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/collective/A843176
Yet, a person who has had an arbitrary decision made regarding their gender, without even the possibility of their consent, will be treated as some kind of oddball, if, at the time of their dawning awareness of this predicament, they notice that the doctors chose the wrong gender.
I don't know if that's the case here, but the numbers are really quite high, for something that almost nobody acknowledges as a factor.
The one thing that concerns me in cases like this is that 2nd graders seem a little young to fully understand the ramifications of changing gender... If you don't know anything about sex yet, are you really equipped to make that decision? Maybe this kid IS, maybe he'll never regret it.... or maybe in 6 or 7 years, he'll just realize he's gay and maybe likes to cross-dress, and not that he considers himself female.
Well, it's not like they're looking into radical gender reassignment surgery. He's changing the way he dresses and the name he is addressed by. That's hardly cast in stone... If "Joe" becomes "Josephine" becomes "Joe" again when he's 16, what's wrong with that? He'll have some strange childhood pics, but then hey, who doesn't?
The child obviously has a very clear idea of how he/she wishes to express him/herself. I can't see that this is the parents' 'fault' in some way. It's not unknown for a child to have these kind of gender identity issues at such a young age, and frankly I get the impression the parents are handling it in about as open minded and fair way as is possible. Would you prefer that they enforce their own concept of his/her gender identity onto their child in order to help him/her fit in to school? Those days, hopefully, have gone, along with taking young children who've shown proclivities towards homosexuality to the psychiatrist for a 'cure'.
In terms of the child ending up as a punching bag for bullies....you can send a child who seemingly is absolutely just like all the other children in their cohort to school, and their classmates find something abotu them that's 'different'. It might be something as small as the way they walk, or a slight astigmatism in their eye....you could send a child with glasses to school, braces on their teeth, freckles or eczema, or a little extra weight on their belly and all these things could make them a punchbag at school. There may be no definable reason that you or I could isolate. They could just have the misfortune to come to the attention of the wrong kid at the wrong time and be marked out for the rest of their school years as prime target no.1.
I don't buy that this kid is not at
greater risk than the normal examples you site. I am well aware of the normal situations. This is not normal.
And enforcing the 'correct' and acceptable gender identity onto the child would make him normal? If he's this insistent on his identity it will show in a myriad of ways. The way he walks the way he talks, the children he chooses to play with, the games he chooses to play. If he is identifying himself as female he will act female regardless of the clothes he wears or the toilet he uses. Kids pick up on that and are just as likely to bully him for it if he's wearing trousers as they if he's wearing a dress.
And enforcing the 'correct' and acceptable gender identity onto the child would make him normal? If he's this insistent on his identity it will show in a myriad of ways. The way he walks the way he talks, the children he chooses to play with, the games he chooses to play. If he is identifying himself as female he will act female regardless of the clothes he wears or the toilet he uses. Kids pick up on that and are just as likely to bully him for it if he's wearing trousers as they if he's wearing a dress.
No doubt. But I would not condone it. Someone is going to pay dearly if anything happens to this child because of the desire to let it dress and act as it pleases. Political correctness gone wild.
I was in line at the grocery store the other day and the woman in front of me was explaining that the razors she was buying were for her 10yo daughter - because the kids at school gave her such a hard time because of the dark hair on her legs and arms, and her daughter was so distraught about it, mom decided to shave them.
Between the psychological damage that kids cause each other and the shootings that result, I really wonder how "normal" it is to have large populations of the same age kids crammed together each day with not much to do other than terrorize each other... :headshake
Anyway, there was a tranny at my kids old school. H/she was in HS, but the school was set up so that all the kids were together a lot thruout the day. My kids understood that sometimes a big guy named Amy liked to wear dresses and that was pretty much the end of it. No big deal at all. (my daughter had a lot more questions about arm shaving than boys in dresses) I don't understand why this kid needs a private bathroom anymore than any other kid though - but if that's what it takes for a school to get them, then more power to her/him.
I very seriously doubt that a 2nd grader is that self-aware. Kids act these things out. They want to be called a different name or want to be a different species, or inanimate objects. I have a friend who's child would ONLY respond to the name "Maxipad" for over a year. It was one of the funniest things I have ever seen. My little boy ran around for awhile saying he was a little girl and not a boy. We didn't feel the need to run with it or away from it. HE IS JUST A LITTLE KID! My niece wanted to be a dog for several years. Actually cried about it on several occations. They do and say all kinds of crazy things. If I had to guess, this little kids has some crazy, way, way, way left of center parents who figure he must be right and ran with it. Encouraging him to go with it. I may completely wrong here, but I don't think so.
I still need more information.
I'm assuming that the child is in therapy and the therapist agrees with this decision.
Does the school require uniforms? I remember HS vaguely and I don't remember dresses except at the prom, cheerleaders and yearbook photo day. Maybe the child will just wear womens' jeans and tops?
Where's Maggie just when we need a more informed opinion?
Brian
Someone is going to pay dearly if anything happens to this child because of the desire to let it dress and act as it pleases. Political correctness gone wild.
lol
I very seriously doubt that a 2nd grader is that self-aware. Kids act these things out. They want to be called a different name or want to be a different species, or inanimate objects. I have a friend who's child would ONLY respond to the name "Maxipad" for over a year. It was one of the funniest things I have ever seen. My little boy ran around for awhile saying he was a little girl and not a boy. We didn't feel the need to run with it or away from it. HE IS JUST A LITTLE KID! My niece wanted to be a dog for several years. Actually cried about it on several occations. They do and say all kinds of crazy things. If I had to guess, this little kids has some crazy, way, way, way left of center parents who figure he must be right and ran with it. Encouraging him to go with it. I may completely wrong here, but I don't think so.
I agree with you. A second grader dosn't have the cognitive ability to know WHY they are saying or feeling a certain way. It's good to let them grow into whatever they are going to be or want to do.
I know my next example is simplistic but we don't let kids draw on themselves,We make them wait for tatoos,piercings ect. Why not wait for gender and name changes too. * shrug*
Just my thoughts. :2cents:
I know my next example is simplistic but we don't let kids draw on themselves,We make them wait for tatoos,piercings ect. Why not wait for gender and name changes too. * shrug*
Just my thoughts. :2cents:
We don't let them get tattoos, but it's hard to stop them drawing on themselves using readily available washable markers -and is it really worth the fight to stop them when they are determined to do so?
Same here.
He just wants to "cross dress" and use a different name. he can always reverse the choice. No permanent changes (snip) are being made here.
I can't stand anyone who says, "What will I say to my kids about...."
Who gives a shit about what you say to your fucking kids? Your comfort in talking to your kids is less important than someone else's freedom to express themselves or be themselves.
And yes, they don't necessarily know WHY they want what they want, but they know how much they want it.
Does anyone stop a determined "tom boy" these days? Why should it be any different in the reverse?
Further thought makes me wonder about the bathroom thing and how much exaggeration is going on. Round here, all elementary classrooms have a single unisex tiolet attached to each classroom. Even this would be a non-issue. But that said, apparently there are unisex toilets available and if that makes the kid happy and ready to learn and causes no-one else harm.....
OMFG I agree with radar (well actually he agrees with me, but still....) :lol:
We don't let them get tattoos, but it's hard to stop them drawing on themselves using readily available washable markers -and is it really worth the fight to stop them when they are determined to do so?
Yeah that image and thought crossed my mind but then I thought only some of the moms will know.;)
Kids will be drawing on things until the end of time and if it were a thing easily conquered the kind crayola people would never have made washable markers.
my almost 12 year old daughter, in 3rd grade, was sure she was supposed to have been a boy, but I think this was just tomboy behavior, and the fact that she wasn't girly like the other girls at her school. She is in 6th grade now, and just this year, rejected all her board shorts and boys tshirts. Whew!!
A song from the past.
There's a boy names Sasha on my son's soccer team. He has long blonde hair. Most people assume he's a girl. He doesn't care. He corrects them and moves on. He plays hockey and roughhouses with the rest, but he's not overly aggressive. Nor is he particularly "girly". he's just a kid. A nice kid. A well adjusted, well balanced kid. I wonder how he'd be if his parents had forced a short haircut onto him and drilled him in "the differences between girl and boy behaviours". It's time to discard these gender stereotypes.
Sasha doesn't wear dresses and tell people he's a girl.
No, but he had to learn to fight.
It's time to discard these gender stereotypes.
Which is precisely why it's silly for him (or his parents, or his teachers, or whoever) to make such an effort to switch to an overbearingly "female" stereotype. Better to say "Being a man doesn't have to mean X" than "No, no, Y means being female so obviously I am a woman."
Your comfort in talking to your kids is less important than someone else's freedom to express themselves or be themselves.
..as long as that freedom of expression is not harmful ... to others. I (strike me now) agree with radar too. :greenface
So the school and staff giving special treatment to one kid doesn't infringe on the rights of others?
So the school and staff giving special treatment to one kid doesn't infringe on the rights of others?
That's how I read it. What a load of crap.
Which special treatment infringes which rights?
I can't stand anyone who says, "What will I say to my kids about...."
Who gives a shit about what you say to your fucking kids? Your comfort in talking to your kids is less important than someone else's freedom to express themselves or be themselves.
Agreed! I still have a hard time believing parents are "uncomfortable" about teaching their kids about sex.
Would they feel more comfortable dropping a note in the kids coffin when he/she dies from AIDS?
And just to point out, being transgendered does not mean someone feels the need to ACT like the other gender. They know, and feel like, they ARE the other gender. So telling the kids to just dress like they have been even though it's not what they need to feel right within themselves is just a load of un-informed crap.
I'm with Sheldon on this one. If this child genuinely feels deep down that s/he is female, then telling him/her to conform to masculinity is a dangerous thing, psychologically. What do you tell the child? That you know they feel (know) that they're a girl, but they're wrong? That every fibre of their being is wrong? That their essential sense of self is wrong? Or worse, that they may be right but that this is something they should hide? That they should be wary of letting people see this essential truth about themself?
Christ what a psychological minefield. I admire the parents. It cannot be an easy thing to go with the flow, knowing the potential for bullying and extreme reactions. But, frankly, I suspect this kid will be well supported by the parents and from the sound of it the school too.
Man this article is big after only one day, I wish I had saw it yesterday.
I don't really know how to feel about this. This is something I've never experienced in school or heard about on the news. The thing about unisex bathrooms though....in my honest opinion that is just weird and well, unnecessary. I feel a person can be whatever gender their mind tells them, but biologically the sex they are should determine where they use the bathroom in grade school. I'd raise an eye if I saw "Dani" the "Tranny" (excuse my language) using the child urinal next to me with a skirt and leggings but I bet the little girls would be even more shocked to see Dani coming out of one of the stalls to wash his hands. Physical features are pretty evident to the sex of children at mid elementary school age.
It's very bold of the parents to encourage transgender dressing in public elementary school. Maybe, too bold? Consider home school? Aww, shucks I really don't know.
... The thing about unisex bathrooms though....in my honest opinion that is just weird and well, unnecessary. ...
All the bathrooms in my house are unisex.
Your house is not a public institution, though.
A lot of public institutions have unisex handicapped bathrooms.
Meh. Transgender doesn't qualify for a handicap sticker. Listen I'm not that defensive about it but to my personal bias, unisex bathrooms in public institutions such as grade school just don't make sense. Especially if the school is personally catering for one transgendered boy/girl.
So the school and staff giving special treatment to one kid doesn't infringe on the rights of others?
I don't think there's enough information to say the child is getting special treatment. From what I read in the article, they've mentioned a unisex bathroom, but that could very well be available to all students.
What rights are being infringed upon?
Meh. Transgender doesn't qualify for a handicap sticker.
I didn't say it did. I was just saying that unisex bathrooms aren't all that wierd in public institutions.
Listen I'm not that defensive about it but to my personal bias, unisex bathrooms in public institutions such as grade school just don't make sense.
Fresh, unisex bathrooms are not multiple-stall. It's just a small room with a sink and a toilet that anyone can use. In this case, they already existed in the school--what the school is actually saying is, rather than decide whether you should share a bathroom with the boys or the girls, you will need to go down the hall to use the bathroom by yourself.
Which special treatment infringes which rights?
Certainly you aren't naive enough to think this kid isn't going to have the teachers walking on eggs. Just trying to remember to never refer to him as him or her, and making sure none of the other kids insult him. You know he's going to get special attention that detracts from the time spent on other kids. Hell, they are already spending money to send out pamphlets to all the parents.
Certainly you aren't naive enough to think this kid isn't going to have the teachers walking on eggs. Just trying to remember to never refer to him as him or her, and making sure none of the other kids insult him. You know he's going to get special attention that detracts from the time spent on other kids. Hell, they are already spending money to send out pamphlets to all the parents.
BS.
Letter home is no different (expense-wise) from the nits and strep ones. Teachers are already walking on eggs. They are afraid to hug crying children for fear of sexual abuse accusations. this is no biggie, comparatively.
It's not a letter it's packets of information, not a sheet you run off on the xerox.
All this bullshit because this little bastard won't wear pants? Fuck him, he needs a good swift kick in the ass
Perhaps the packets of information were donated by some agency or group to help this child. There's really no reference to what these 'packets' of information are. In fact, the word 'packet' can refer to a steam of images from a movie set even, as you no doubt know. I don't see what the problem is. Srsly. What's wrong with a school educating parents a little anyway? Aren't schools supposed to educate?
And perhaps they weren't. The little brat still needs a kick in the ass.
Hmmm....I think my kids need a man like Bruce around.
Hmmm....I think my kids need a man like Bruce around.
As an example of what NOT to be.
Bah, the kid may be queer, or just effeminate, or whatever, but third grade is too early to figure that out. Put on a pair of pants and get with the program.
He can make major lifestyle changes, on his own time, when it becomes important.
I'm not sure what the actual day-to-day impact of this would be. They're not teaching different curriculum to boys and girls, so, what's the difference which gender he wants to "identify" with?
I have a weird first name, many teachers asked me what I want to "go by" ...so calling people different things is already in place. No change there.
Schools already have a dress code, so shouldn't be any question there. Everybody wears the uniform. If you can get a doctor to diagnose you as needing to wear a different uniform for some medical reason, then that part would be a factor.
What else is there?
All this bullshit because this little bastard won't wear pants? Fuck him, he needs a good swift kick in the ass
'nuff said.
I'm not so sure that 3rd grade is too early to figure it out.
I'm no expert in transgender or bi or gay development, but I know what it's like to be attracted to someone.
I had the beginning stages of a crush on a girl in kindergarten, and it became a stronger crush as grade school progressed. I wasn't old enough to have the sexual feelings behind the crush, but I knew she was special and I liked her in a different way than I liked other girls. By third grade it was a strong enough crush to know I liked girls, and not boys.
My daughter in second grade had a crush on an older boy.
I don't think that gender identity is a sexual thing at all. In this context. He isn't "gay" ... "gay" males are still male, in gender identity.
Certainly you aren't naive enough to think this kid isn't going to have the teachers walking on eggs. Just trying to remember to never refer to him as him or her,
I don't feel all that much pain for the other kids losing their share of those fractions of seconds of indecision.
and making sure none of the other kids insult him.
That's part of their job already. Kids insult about anything, and if they do it in the presence of a teacher, the teacher has to address it. Nothing new.
You know he's going to get special attention that detracts from the time spent on other kids. Hell, they are already spending money to send out pamphlets to all the parents.
It's not a letter it's packets of information, not a sheet you run off on the xerox.
So they put
pamphlets in
with a letter? I can't imagine how they managed.
And none of this supreme effort would have been necessary if they weren't worried about other parents freaking out, which isn't the kid's fault.
Ehhhhh, I'm with Bruce. School isn't a democracy. It's one of the few places constitutional rights are vetoed by the educational process. The lil' dude can just wear tight girl jeans if he wants, punk high school kids do it all the time. As long as he isn't cross dressing in the 3rd grade. Bruce is right with all the special attention he will be reeling in.
A transgendered second grader. I'm... skeptical. Frankly this is too young to know with much certainty about it's gender identity (I'm using these terms loosely, in the vernacular, not as a professional). I will say with confidence that a youngster can want to be called any number of things as they're coming up. Including identities of the opposite sex, or of a made up character, etc. This easily can include dressing accordingly.
Even this weekend SonofV and I went through a bit of the "call me Weavel, until we get home, ok?" stuff. No costume changes though. All normal.
Yeesh. What a tempest in a teapot.
good think youre kid is normal bigv hoep that never changes you couldn't handle it.,
closed minded fux here.
ohhai douchebag! so glad to see you haven't been banned yet. with the way you make friends i can see you'll have a long and fruitful stay in the cellar.
yes, i'm sure you are. i'm thinking we should get WHIP to give us the over/under on how long you last.
let's see now... joined 10/07. 31 posts. number of positive contributions... still zero.
Im the best ever
tried a contribution but closet minds cant read it cause youall know it all
by "all" do you mean "how to string together properly spelled words to make a cohesive statement"?
Ehhhhh, I'm with Bruce. School isn't a democracy. It's one of the few places constitutional rights are vetoed by the educational process. The lil' dude can just wear tight girl jeans if he wants, punk high school kids do it all the time. As long as he isn't cross dressing in the 3rd grade. Bruce is right with all the special attention he will be reeling in.
Your school may not be a democracy, but some are... and they work pretty well that way.
---
"Information packet" is school speak for pamphlet with a cover note.
The point is, the school is not really going "out of it's way" to help this kid. The kid is not "making them jump through hoops". All you people who think it is s big deal are clearly too far removed from the everyday running of decent elementary schools to realize that this could almost go unnoticed if silly homophobic parents didn't create a hoo-haa about it.
If nothing else, R2D3 has a good user title.
Yes. Fucketh thou, thee fuckiest fuck fuck of the Kingdom of Fucktitude.:lol:
I've seen you. You're like many others, cry because you're wealthy, tell the world what is right, yet you don't contribute to helping anyone, you don't lend a hand, you don't do much but wallow in your sadness over what you could have done if you had used your powers for good instead of evil.
A boring lot.
homophobic? not at all. sick and fucking tired of every other person playing some sort of minority or victim card? yep.
seriously, i don't give a damn what the kid thinks he is or how open minded his parents are. it's real simple: if he has a penis, he's a boy and needs to put a pair of pants on and go to class. if he wants to sit when he pees, that's cool. he can do that in the boys' bathroom. if he wants to be called sheila and wear a dress at home, that's up to his parents. until such time as his parents take him and and pay to have to his pecker cut off, he's a boy. now it's time to stfu, sit down and learn some readin, ritin, and rithmatic. *tobacco spit*
Yes. Fucketh thou, thee fuckiest fuck fuck of the Kingdom of Fucktitude.:lol:
I've seen you. You're like many others, cry because you're wealthy, tell the world what is right, yet you don't contribute to helping anyone, you don't lend a hand, you don't do much but wallow in your sadness over what you could have done if you had used your powers for good instead of evil.
A boring lot.
How would you know what the people here contribute to their society? Do you think they post every little thing here so that wankers like you can come and criticize them for it? Do you think the people here need to martyr themselves for the approval of worms like you?
I don't think so.
Yes. Fucketh thou, thee fuckiest fuck fuck of the Kingdom of Fucktitude.:lol:
I've seen you. You're like many others, cry because you're wealthy, tell the world what is right, yet you don't contribute to helping anyone, you don't lend a hand, you don't do much but wallow in your sadness over what you could have done if you had used your powers for good instead of evil.
A boring lot.
*looks over shoulder* but,but i thought the interwebz were anonymous. how did you know it was me?
Just one more note on the pamphlet thing.
If schools can send home brochures about the local dance classes or sports or whatever, I don't really see what the difference is if they're informing parents of other changes in the school.
The number of children born "intersexual" and the subsequent decision of a doctor to perform surgery (for aesthetic or social purposes) to "assign" a gender is much higher than many would ever know. This can lead to gender confusion, as you can guess; some kids notice it earlier especially in these days of much more openness about gender issues.
I don't find the article or issue all that surprising.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/collective/A843176
*looks over shoulder* but,but i thought the interwebz were anonymous. how did you know it was me?
Me lurk you long time. Well, not you in 'ticular.
so, what exactly does that have to do with this? the issue isn't whether or not the kid feels something. it is whether or not we expect schools to make concessions because one kid, one very young kid, feels different.
But what concessions are they making? They're informing the parents - which is consideration in my opinion. They're advising the student to use the unisex toilets instead of having to make the choice of boy or girl.
The only concession is to allow him to wear a girls uniform, but even that could be viewed as his right anyway. I doubt you'd find any school specifying that girls have to wear girls uniforms and vice versa for the boys, even though it's implied. So if that's the case, there's really no concession there either.
most schools that require uniforms are very specific about what is allowed for boys/girls right down to length of hair and color of pants.
maybe my opinion on this is tainted because i have serious doubts about the origin of this kid's gender concerns. he's a kid. kids are always confused and curious. that doesn't mean you have to salute everything they run up the flagpole. my opinion is that if the kid sat his parents down and told them he wanted to be a girl, they should have been compassionate and non-judgemental and told him that's ok, but for now he's a boy and needs to live as a boy. when he is older and more capable of understanding the ramifications of this, then they can explore the possibilities, but now? doesn't make sense to me.
Yeah, I gotta agree with Aliantha here. They're not just wasting money to accomodate a kid. They're informing the parents about what's going on. My high school sent home a bunch of literature to parents when a fellow student brought a gun in too--it's about being informative and honest, not about catering to that individual. I'm sure it wasn't the goal of the kid in question to get the school system to waste a bunch of money sending out letters, and no doubt parents would throw a fit if their kid was in the class with Joe/sephine and they were not informed of the change at all.
(And just in case anyone caught this, I'll clarify--I've been to public schools, been homeschooled and went to a private high school... I'm not just being inconsistent in any lies!)
most schools that require uniforms are very specific about what is allowed for boys/girls right down to length of hair and color of pants.
maybe my opinion on this is tainted because i have serious doubts about the origin of this kid's gender concerns. he's a kid. kids are always confused and curious. that doesn't mean you have to salute everything they run up the flagpole. my opinion is that if the kid sat his parents down and told them he wanted to be a girl, they should have been compassionate and non-judgemental and told him that's ok, but for now he's a boy and needs to live as a boy. when he is older and more capable of understanding the ramifications of this, then they can explore the possibilities, but now? doesn't make sense to me.
I get what you're saying lookout, but if our society wasn't so judgemental of people who choose to be different (or simply just are different), there would be no ramifications and I think that's the point the myself and others are trying to promote. Allow it, and bust one more barrier for those kids who have to pretend they're something they're not till they're old enough to know what they are.
I don't know about you, but I always knew I was a girl who liked boys. Why is it so hard for people to accept that most kids do know what they are.
In fact, I'd go further even and say that if our society weren't so stifling, there'd be a lot more kids out there who'd choose to dress other than how society says they should.
And of course i don't mean wearing batman outfits because it's fun.
most schools that require uniforms are very specific about what is allowed for boys/girls right down to length of hair and color of pants.
maybe my opinion on this is tainted because i have serious doubts about the origin of this kid's gender concerns. he's a kid. kids are always confused and curious. that doesn't mean you have to salute everything they run up the flagpole. my opinion is that if the kid sat his parents down and told them he wanted to be a girl, they should have been compassionate and non-judgemental and told him that's ok, but for now he's a boy and needs to live as a boy. when he is older and more capable of understanding the ramifications of this, then they can explore the possibilities, but now? doesn't make sense to me.
As a parent, some lessons I *tell* to my son. Some lessons I *show* him. Some lessons I leave for him to discover on his own. Of the three, the third one is the most potent teaching method. It's not always appropriate. "Don't play in the street" is a tell lesson--the stakes are too high to permit an error. How to ride a skateboard is a show lesson--at least at the beginning--he's way better than me now. How to get along with his peers is mostly a (series of) self discovery lessons.
The three methods are not mutually exclusive, of course. And parental temperament plays a big factor in this kind of social dynamic. I prefer the self discovery angle, but not exclusively. Others here have posted their preference for a much more authoritarian stance, mercy and Radar are a couple of examples that come to mind.
I see the parents taking this third track. They may also be doing (or have done) the others too. Where's the harm? What are the stakes, the cost of failure? Pretty low in my estimate. That's a good candidate for learning on their own.
Kids at that age have very clear ideas about whether they're a boy or a girl in my experience. The fact that this child's identity doesn't match his physiology is creating some difficulties. If he was very clear that he was a boy there would be no problem. Unfortunately he is very clear he isn't and that is causing problems. If he was five years olde we would barely question his knowledge of himself, but we assume that boys know they're boys and girls know theyre girls at this early age.
For the record, I knew I was gay before I knew what gay was.
How many of you had crushes on the opposite sex when you were little? How many had crushes on a teacher of the opposite sex then?
Anyone who thinks don't have more than a few clues about what's what are either stupid or..well, actually they are just stupid.
And shame on you for thinking a childs life is OK to force inot a neat little box just to make it easier on you.
Wow, BigV, that's a very astute assessment. Kudos.
Kids at that age have very clear ideas about whether they're a boy or a girl in my experience.
Just because they've been told what the are ,and how what they are should act, at that age. There's no way a second grader can comprehend what being one or the other is going to entail.
Just because they've been told what the are ,and how what they are should act, at that age. There's no way a second grader can comprehend what being one or the other is going to entail.
The implication here - as I read it - is that you can change a kids sexual orientation for the time being, simply by telling him or her how to act.
Kids at that age know a lot more about their sexual orientation than some give them credit for. It's just that at that age, it's not appropriate socially or biologically for those feelings to be acted upon, even though they certainly are in some cases.
OK, I've been thinking about posting this but couldn't remember the boys name till now which was somehow important to me.
When I was kid of about 7 or 8, we had some neighbours move in up the road from us and they had a couple of kids, but the one closest to my age was a boy named Hudson. He used to come to our place each day after school (as most of the other local kids did), but he didn't play rough games in the yard with the boys. He preferred to play with my barbie dolls by himself. I wasn't interested in them, and in the end I gave a heap of them to him to take home. I didn't think anything bad about it at the time. I kind of thought it was weird that he didn't want to play the same games as the other kids, but it didn't bother me, or the other kids as far as I know. Hudson was just a bit different.
Apparently he turned out to be a gay cross dresser and it really didn't surprise me. I think my gaydar must have been tuned in already at that age. I don't think there was anything unusual about me though. All the kids knew something was different. Mum definitely did cause she told us we should be nice to Husdon and make sure the other kids were too. So we did.
The point is, kids know stuff.
In the second grade there is no sexual orientation, there's just kids.
I disagree Bruce. There have been plenty of studies showing that kids have very refined sense of what is 'boy' behaviour and what is 'girl' behaviour. It manifests in the choices they make regarding which toys to play with (from as early as 3 yrs old boys will have a tendency to choose toys with particular properties and girls likewise: eg. in one study children were asked to choose a toy to play with. The choice was between a traditionally 'female' type toy, ie a doll, which was made out of hard materials in colours that were harsh and clashing such as black and red, or a 'boy's toy, that was in soft pastel colours, such as a gun. The boys went for the toy with male properties in terms of colour and shape, rather than content and the girls likewise. This suggests an instinctive, rather than societally formed choice.) Other studies were done whereby male teachers acted in a particular way and female teachers acted in a different way and the children were observed to see which they followed. The boys generally favoured the way the man was acting, and the girls favoured the way the woman was acting. These were very young children, but they had a clear perception of whether they were male or female and followed the role model that most closely associated with that.
The boys went for the toy with male properties in terms of colour and shape, rather than content and the girls likewise. This suggests an instinctive, rather than societally formed choice.
I don't buy that conclusion in the slightest. Society tells girls they should play with dolls, but society doesn't tell girls their things should be pink? I think it's interesting the girls chose based on the color rather than the fact that it was a gun, but I don't think you can make the claim at all that this means pink is somehow "instinctive." Hundreds of years ago pink was societally a boys' color because it was agressively vibrant, while blue was a girls' color because it was more demure.
That said, I do believe there is an instinctive understanding of what one likes--and
typically, those do fall along the traditional gender expectations. We have stereotypes for a reason. My son has shown a very distinct preference for toy cars since he was six months old. But that doesn't
make him a boy, just like wanting to wear dresses doesn't make this kid a girl.
I agree with you and monster that this kid should be allowed to act however he wants to act. But I agree with Bruce that the adults (by which I really mean his parents; even if they didn't want to comply the school's hands are pretty much tied by the threat of a discrimination suit) are trying too hard to be accomodating. It is a medical fact that he is not a girl, he is a boy who likes to wear dresses. I was a big ol' tomboy, who wore dirty t-shirts and played rough games and had almost exclusively male friends until puberty--and while it occurred to my mother that I might end up being a lesbian, no one ever encouraged the idea that I was male, because I wasn't. The girls in my school thought I was a little strange, to be sure, but I am quite certain the boys would have rejected me too had I suddenly started claiming I
was one. And that is ultimately my problem with this whole situation: it is not going to accomplish what the little boy wants. His peers are
not going to simply pretend he is a girl, even if the teachers manage to keep the bullying to a minimum. You can't make the other kids believe something they know isn't true, and they are going to reject him. The parents ought to be wise enough to see that, and while there is a time and place for letting kids learn their own lessons the hard way, I think in a situation this psychologically delicate they should be helping him choose the path that will ultimately have the least traumatizing outcome for him.
Clod, what I get from your post is that you think the boy's parents should just tell him to dress like a boy because it'll be easier for him (and everyone else). Am I reading it correctly?
No. I'm saying the boy should dress however he wants. He can wear a dress--or a girls' top with embroidered jeans, or whatever--just like a girl can wear pants and a ratty t-shirt.
He should, however, continue to use the same name the students have already called him for over a year, use the boys' bathroom, and allow the teachers to refer to him as "he."
Why not the unisex bathroom? After all, he does seem to be a bit of a mix right now.
Because it will serve to isolate him further from the other kids in the class. I suppose if it's unobtrusive it won't matter one way or the other, but in most elementary schools the bathrooms are connected to the actual classrooms, and if this kid has to go out the main door and down the hall to some other location, it will stigmatize him more than just going in the boys' bathroom with the dress he already has on. Everyone's already going to know him as 'that boy who wears dresses' anyway, so no one will think there is a girl in the boys' bathroom.
I thought someone posted earlier in this thread that most of the bathrooms attached to classrooms were unisex.
Why can't he hold on till morning tea or lunch anyway? By the third grade that shouldn't be too much to ask.
We don't have toilets attached to our classrooms here. There are toilet blocks which are generally well away from classrooms and eating areas.
Two things,
The bathrooms meant for the students at our kids' schools were down the hall from all the classes, not attached to the classroom. Are you saying, Clodfobble, that there are two bathrooms attached to each classroom, in the schools you're talking about? Because if it's single bathroom, then both boys and girls use it, in turn, don't they?
And the second thing, UNIsex bathroom? Ahem, shouldn't this be MULTIsex bathroom, for the one that doesn't have a SINGLE sex sign on the door? Arent' the little boys' room and the little girls' room examples of UNIsex bathrooms?
We have one bathroom at home. What sex is it I wonder?
I have no idea what the bathrooms at this school are like, other than the article indicates that there are separate boys' and girls' bathrooms that are in general use by his class, and a few unisex* bathrooms do exist in another part of the school--presumably farther away--and the child in question will specifically go to use those whenever he needs to go.
In the two elementary schools I attended, as well as two others I have been inside as an adult, classrooms are connected in pairs (usually both the same grade) by a short hallway between them, which is not the main hallway of the school. Within this connecting hallway are two doors leading to bathrooms, one for the girls and one for the boys. I've also seen private places like preschools and daycares use this floorplan. Maybe that's just standard building procedure in Texas, I don't know. By the time you get to junior high, the bathrooms are higher-capacity and accessible from the main hallway, like in any public place.
*As for the definition of
unisex, well, it is what it is. The Latin roots may not make the most sense, but very little in English makes sense anyway...
Yes. Fucketh thou, thee fuckiest fuck fuck of the Kingdom of Fucktitude.:lol:
I've seen you. You're like many others, cry because you're wealthy, tell the world what is right, yet you don't contribute to helping anyone, you don't lend a hand, you don't do much but wallow in your sadness over what you could have done if you had used your powers for good instead of evil.
A boring lot.
And yet, you keep showing up ??
Wow, BigV, that's a very astute assessment. Kudos.
:blush: Thanks!
We have one bathroom at home. What sex is it I wonder?
Does the seat stay up?
I can solve this confusion about male-female identity. If the kid has a penis, he goes to the boys room. If not, the girls room.
I can solve this confusion about male-female identity. If the kid has a penis, he goes to the boys room. If not, the girls room.
This sounds simple enough. But, what about when a baby is born with inditinct genetalia, and the doctors make a cosmetic alteration to assign a gender? And what if they assign the wrong gender? This goes to the heart of the "there is no medical reason that he should be considered a girl" argument. What if he really is a girl, that has been arbitrarily assigned the male gender?
This happens to a large number of people, and the subject is so socially awkward that nobody even knows that it exists. That same social awkwardness is the reason that the parents/doctors decide to assign a gender to an infant who can't possibly consent to such a procedure.
We assume that gender is a either/or attribute, but it isn't. And we don't know how to react when the lines are blurred.
__________________
Thread drift: Another possible outcome of the confusing-gender baby scenario is that the doctors chop off part of the clitoris, to make it look "normal" - and the child grows up to be a female that has no capacity to enjoy a normal sexual exprience. Essentially, this is a form of genital mutilation that people believe happens only in "other" places.
Did that happen to you, Flint?
I'm so sorry.
No, I read about it a long time ago in an article in the New Yorker, so I don't have an internet source to site conveniently.
This was mentioned on the first page of this thread, and I'm the only one who responded to it. After that, the person who posted it went psycho.
sexual enjoyment would only get her into trouble anyway. can't trust her with that kind of temptation.
nah, just sarcasm. had a knuckledragger in the lunchroom guffawing about how the study concluding some women don't have a g spot. of course, he'd find it and if he couldn't find it they were obviously rug munchers. that of course led into his bitch of an ex wife cheating on him. she wasn't woman enough for him or some such shit. bring on the chastity belts, blahblahblah.
I can solve this confusion about male-female identity. If the kid has a penis, he goes to the boys room. If not, the girls room.
And are you proposing to demand they prove it before entering?
In an extreme case, such a stance could lead to a little boy mutilating his own genitalia to become the girl he feels he should be. Would you then just chalk him up as a sicko the world is better off without?
The school's actions cause no harm to anyone. If they demanded that he behave like a boy, it could.
Wearing a pair of pants and peeing in the boys room is not demanding he act like a boy. He can play with dolls, hand with the girls, read girls books and swap beauty tips for all anybody cares.
He isn't wanting to 'act like a girl' he feels he is a girl.
feeling like i'm the king of england doesn't make it so. somehow my dna didn't line up in the right order for that.
feeling like i'm the king of england doesn't make it so. somehow my dna didn't line up in the right order for that.
And if the kid felt he was the king of England, the school should have no problem treating him as such. Future monarchs are treated just like everyone else in school. Except for the bodyguard thing. Which is not paid for by the school. Presumably it would be the same for reigning achild monarchs these days, although in the old days, child monarch were "home-schooled" :lol:
feeling like i'm the king of england doesn't make it so. somehow my dna didn't line up in the right order for that.
This is true. However, a transgender person actually IS the the other sex. They were just born with the wrong body.
No they're not, they are what they are medically. They think they are the opposite sex and wish to act like they are, but legally they are not.
The law doesn't put a lot of restrictions of people based of sex, other than separate bathrooms and attempting to fool people. That's fair.
So what is the legal reason for separate bathrooms?
It's the law. Not only that, in many states the law specifies the ratio of mens and womens rooms.
And the reason for the law is?
It doesn't matter, want to change it?
so all the elementary schools withunisex bathrooms are breaking the law?
No, because they're single-room. A male and a female would never be in the bathroom at the same time.
(first law I'd change has nothing to do with bathrooms...)
I'm betting all unisex bathrooms in schools are for teachers and staff, not students.
No, because they're single-room. A male and a female would never be in the bathroom at the same time.
So then what's the problem with directing the kid to the unisex facility ?
I'm betting all unisex bathrooms in schools are for teachers and staff, not students.
You're wrong.
most bathrooms in my kids' school are unisex. Same for all other elementary schools in the district. You really haven't been reading the thread very closely before spouting off, have you?
Your telling me that boys and girls are using the same facilities at the same time and there are no separate boys and girls rooms? Bullshit. That went out with one room schoolhouses.
So then what's the problem with directing the kid to the unisex facility ?
I don't have a problem with it, other than it will serve to further separate and ostracize the kid from his classmates. My problem is not whether concessions are made for him, it's whether they will ultimately lead to the best results for his well-being. You have to balance letting him establish his sexual identity with the very real fact that he
is going to be bullied, no matter how hard the teachers try to keep it in check.
in reply to bruce
Not at the same time, no. But the same facilities. Schools these days have single-toilet facilities. There are only two "multiple occupancy" bathrooms in our school, and they are upstairs next to the 5-8 grade rooms. They are rarely used.
From the link.
two unisex bathrooms in the building will be made available.
Two in the building, or haven't you been paying attention before spouting off.
I don't have a problem with it, other than it will serve to further separate and ostracize the kid from his classmates. My problem is not whether concessions are made for him, it's whether they will ultimately lead to the best results for his well-being. You have to balance letting him establish his sexual identity with the very real fact that he is going to be bullied, no matter how hard the teachers try to keep it in check.
I wasn't questioning you, but quoted you because you answered my question for Bruce.
As for the bullied issue -it wouldn't happen here -our lesbian moms are too scary for kids to get out of line on sexuality issues ;) srsly, though, he'd get bullied anyway -kids don't need to see special treatment to notice "different"
From the link.Two in the building, or haven't you been paying attention before spouting off.
How many bathrooms do you think the kid needs?
(oh and they are probably disabled bathrooms rather than staff ones.....)
One. The same one the other boys use.
I'm betting all unisex bathrooms in schools are for teachers and staff, not students.
You really haven't been reading the thread very closely before spouting off, have you?
you generalised. you did not talk about this school in particular. The norm in other schools is discussed in this thread. So you can't have read it very thoroughly. Before Spouting Off.
One. The same one the other boys use.
You do know you protest too much, don't you? You're too intelligent for this homophobic crap.
I was talking about the subject of this thread which you seemed to have lost the grasp of.
If all the little bastards use unisex bathrooms why would they have to make them available to one kid. Try and keep up.
I was talking about the subject of this thread which you seemed to have lost the grasp of.
BS.
the subject was that the school was jumping through hoops to accomodate the boy who felt he should be a girl
many people have pointed out that no, they weren't jumping through hoops, but yet you cling to the "boys need to be boys and pee in the boys bathroom straw" and anything other than this is unacceptable jumping through hoops to bow to PC..
I was talking about the subject of this thread which you seemed to have lost the grasp of.
If all the little bastards use unisex bathrooms why would they have to make them available to one kid. Try and keep up.
pathetic. you are above this. well my opinion of you is (was).
No, they are not available to all in this school. This school is clearly behind the times in that respect. that said, they do have unisex toilets which they have advised and allowed this child to use. I must have missed the bit where they said he
had to use them? I was laboring under the impression that he could still "be a man" if he wanted to....?
No, he can't be a man, he's a second grade boy, and he can damn well wear what the other second grade boys wear and pee where the other second grade boys pee. He is not special.
No, he can't be a man, he's a second grade boy, and he can damn well wear what the other second grade boys wear and pee where the other second grade boys pee. He is not special.
Everyone is special in their own way. What do the other boys wear? Is is a law? Conformity is over-rated.
You're one of those people who never admits to changing their mind or concedes defeat, aren't you? Your current position in this debate is a dinosaur in the mud. In the future, little (transgender) boys will be using your bones to scare the girls (or strengthen their corsets).
No they're not, they are what they are medically.
Maybe. And maybe they were born with indistinct genetalia, and were cosmetically altered, to assign them to a specific gender. What would that make them "medically"...? What God made them, or what man decided they should be? Again, I don't know if this is the case here, but, again, I've gotten zero response on this point. I think it goes to the heart of the matter: that gender isn't a neatly catagorized thing, yet we are only comfortable considering it as such.
In such a case, the uncomfortability would be squarely
our problem, not that of an innocent kid who is living the experience.
You're one of those people who never admits to changing their mind or concedes defeat, aren't you?
You certainly haven't changed my mind with your attacks and rants.
If someone did manage to change my mind it wouldn't be a defeat.
No, he can't be a man, he's a second grade boy, and he can damn well wear what the other second grade boys wear and pee where the other second grade boys pee. He is not special.
Neither is a kid in a wheel chair that might need to use a different bathroom. Different, not "special".
Being in a wheelchair would be a valid reason to make special arrangements.
In third grade, when this kid decides he wants to be a Koala Bear, will they add Eucalyptus leaves to the school lunch menu?
The idea of breaking down barriers is so that the things we percieve to be 'different' now, might be considered normal or even ok in the future.
If we continue to say it's not ok to say you're gay or that you want to wear girls clothes when you're young to those who feel a physical need to do so then those barriers will remain in place and we will continue to have a high number of homosexual males commit suicide rather than come out and say they're gay. They'll continue to be bashed by homophobic males. They'll continue to be abused.
Until we raise the awareness of the general community and take all the hoodoo's away, we'll continue to be a dangerous society for gay people to live in.
And again, I don't see anywhere in the article that they're making special provisions for the child anyway. If the loo's are available to other students also, then what's the big deal?
This has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuals or homophobia.
I think it does, and these are my reasons.
Western society is built on gender stereotypes. Everything we do including how we dress is based on male/female roles. This of course means that when uniformity is required as in schools, we have no choice but to revert to those stereotypical norms.
However, as our society has evolved, slowly but surely, these stereotypes have begun to break down. We see women doing traditionally male oriented jobs and we see men doing traditional females jobs as an example. We've seen women start to wear pants over the last hundred or so years along with bikinis and all sorts of other things that once were considered inappropriate or perhaps even 'special'.
I can understand the resistance some people might feel towards these barriers being further broken down, but I'm certain that in the future, children who are now considered 'special' might just be considered ordinary, but none of this will occur without first having to go through the public forum to be debated ad nauseum.
I know I'm on the winning side of this debate though. History tells me this is so.
This has absolutely nothing to do with homosexuals or homophobia.
Then call it whatever phobia you want. It's still wrong.
Being in a wheelchair would be a valid reason to make special arrangements.
In third grade, when this kid decides he wants to be a Koala Bear, will they add Eucalyptus leaves to the school lunch menu?
So it's just your perception on what is valid and what isn't.
You can have a valid perception but it doesn't make it correct.
And if a child can be proven to actually BE a Koala Bear trapped in a human body then the answer is yes. Just like being Transgender IS a provable state.
Human beings can't digest Eucalypt leaves anyway. ;)
Besides, providing such a comparison is simply an attempt to trivialize the situation, and it's not a trivial subject.
Just like being Transgender IS a provable state.
How do you prove a second grader is Transgendered?
How do you prove they're not?
How do you prove a second grader is Transgendered?
Psychological testing.
You have much more faith in Dr Phil's ability, to tell a second grader from his elbow, than I do.
You have much more faith in Dr Phil's ability, to tell a second grader from his elbow, than I do.
I said Psychological testing. Not quack jobs.
Touché.
How can they test a second grader, except compare his answers and actions to standards? Isn't that putting him into a preset box?
He's a boy. If he and his parents want to make him a girl and change his name to Pat, fine and dandy, do it. Then he'll be a girl and problem solved.
But going through life being one thing, and claiming to be another, is going to bring him, and those around him, nothing but grief. He might even end up in jail.
He might end up in jail because he's a man who likes to wear women's clothing?
~snip~
He's a boy. If he and his parents want to make him a girl and change his name to Pat, fine and dandy, do it. ~snip~
Touché.
How can they test a second grader, except compare his answers and actions to standards? Isn't that putting him into a preset box?
He's a boy. If he and his parents want to make him a girl and change his name to Pat, fine and dandy, do it. Then he'll be a girl and problem solved.
But going through life being one thing, and claiming to be another, is going to bring him, and those around him, nothing but grief. He might even end up in jail.
This is starting to sound like all those arguments against gay marriage. "You can't let them marry cuz they might want to marry a goat next".
So you deny, that a male dressing as a female is going to at least have a rough road, even if he doesn't run afoul of the law?
So you deny, that a male dressing as a female is going to at least have a rough road, even if he doesn't run afoul of the law?
Of course it will be a rough road. It's rough for anyone perceived as "different". But a rough road is always better than the wrong road.
Then why not make him what he and his parents claim him to actually be?
At this point, all I see is the report yesterday on CNN of the boy who was killed for being gay and open about it. The object of his affections obviously didn't care too much for that.
I know a young man, age 15, who is very articulate, handsome and brilliant. He is gay. He wears makeup, his hair is spiked yet stylish. Although he and his parents have not openly acknowledged his sexual orientation, things are quite clear. The fear that these families and children live in is a very real thing. You're right. It is going to be a rough road. And these kids are good kids. They just live life a little differently then the majority of the population. Let's hope for peace of mind for the family at whatever road they may choose.
Then why not make him what he and his parents claim him to actually be?
I don't know all the technical aspects of it but I'm assuming the surgery has to wait until the body is matured. Also, I think the law requires it but I'm not sure.
I can just imagine the uproar if this child was allowed to have gender reassignment surgery at this age. Also, there is always the possibility that he will change his mind over time. That doesn't however mean that he isn't right now. Just that you have to allow for the possibility given his youth. There's also a strong possibility that he won't change his mind and will opt for gender reassignment later in his life.
If a kid is willing to put up with the amount of teasing he's likely to get for wearing a dress to school, you would have to say that he's fairly certain of what he wants. I mean seriously, we all tried to go against peer pressure at some time in our school lives, but unless it was something really important, don't most kids end up taking the easy road anyway?
OK, reading
this article, along with Sheldon's reasoning, has made me rethink my position.
That said, I'm still skeptical that a second grader is prepared to make this determination? So maybe instead of kicking him in the ass, we can just beat him a little.;)
This story airs on Nightline tonight.
Commence Microsoft Internet Explorer Jokes now......
Maybe the 2nd grader will get bullied some. And maybe he'll change back again. And maybe he won't marry someone and have kids before he decides to be true to himself and gives them something to be bullied about.
Kudos for admitting the rethink, though.
Sorry, it works for me.... maybe because I have a LA Times cookie.
During my 23 years with The Times' sports department, I have held a wide variety of roles and titles. Tennis writer. Angels beat reporter. Olympics writer. Essayist. Sports media critic. NFL columnist. Recent keeper of the Morning Briefing flame.
Today I leave for a few weeks' vacation, and when I return, I will come back in yet another incarnation.
As Christine.
I am a transsexual sportswriter. It has taken more than 40 years, a million tears and hundreds of hours of soul-wrenching therapy for me to work up the courage to type those words. I realize many readers and colleagues and friends will be shocked to read them.
That's OK. I understand that I am not the only one in transition as I move from Mike to Christine. Everyone who knows me and my work will be transitioning as well. That will take time. And that's all right. To borrow a piece of well-worn sports parlance, we will take it one day at a time.
Transsexualism is a complicated and widely misunderstood medical condition. It is a natural occurrence — unusual, no question, but natural.
Recent studies have shown that such physiological factors as genetics and hormonal fluctuations during pregnancy can significantly affect how our brains are "wired" at birth.
As extensive therapy and testing have confirmed, my brain was wired female.
A transgender friend provided the best and simplest explanation I have heard: We are born with this, we fight it as long as we can, and in the end it wins.
I gave it as good a fight as I possibly could. I went more than 40 hard rounds with it. Eventually, though, you realize you are only fighting yourself and your happiness and your mental health — a no-win situation any way you look at it.
When you reach the point when one gender causes heartache and unbearable discomfort, and the other brings more joy and fulfillment than you ever imagined possible, it shouldn't take two tons of bricks to fall in order to know what to do.
It didn't with me.
With me, all it took was 1.99 tons.
For more years than I care to count, I was scared to death over the prospect of writing a story such as this one. It was the most frightening of all the towering mountains of fear I somehow had to confront and struggle to scale.
How do you go about sharing your most important truth, one you spent a lifetime trying to keep deeply buried, to a world that has grown familiar and comfortable with your façade?
To a world whose knowledge of transsexuals usually begins and ends with Jerry Springer's exploitation circus?
Painfully and reluctantly, I began the coming-out process a few months ago. To my everlasting amazement, friends and colleagues almost universally have been supportive and encouraging, often breaking the tension with good-natured doses of humor.
When I told my boss Randy Harvey, he leaned back in his chair, looked through his office window to scan the newsroom and mused, "Well, no one can ever say we don't have diversity on this staff."
When I told Robert, the soccer-loving lad from Wales who cuts my hair, why I wanted to start growing my hair out, he had to take a seat, blink hard a few times and ask, "Does this mean you don't like football anymore, Mike?"
No, I had to assure him, I still love soccer. I will continue to watch it. I hope to continue to coach it.
My days of playing in men's over-30 rec leagues, however, could be numbered.
When I told Eric, who has played sweeper behind my plodding stopper for more than a decade, he brightly suggested, "Well, you're still good for co-ed!"
I broke the news to Tim by beginning, "Are you familiar with the movie 'Transamerica'?" Tim nodded. "Well, welcome to my life," I said.
Tim seemed more perplexed than most as I nervously launched into my story.
Finally, he had to explain, "I thought you said 'Trainspotting.' I thought you were going to tell me you're a heroin addict."
People have asked if transitioning will affect my writing. And if so, how?
All I can say at this point is that I am now happier, more focused and more energized when I sit behind a keyboard. The wicked writer's block that used to reach up and torture me at some of the worst possible times imaginable has disappeared.
My therapist says this is what happens when a transsexual finally "integrates" and the ever-present white noise in the background dissipates.
That should come as good news to my editors: far fewer blown deadlines.
So now we all will take a short break between bylines. "Mike Penner" is out, "Christine Daniels" soon will be taking its place.
From here, it feels like a big improvement. I hope with time you will agree.
This could be the beginning of a beautiful relationship.
No no, not your link Bruce, monster's "this story" link.
Oh yeah, of course.... silly me.:blush:
That's because I'm a dickhead and either deleted or failed to copy the link properly and must have been confused by my already open window on the story when I "checked" it.
This story aired on Nightline last night. Or so I believe. I was in bed by then. Wiped out.