A historically significant day for Australians
Today for the first time ever, the Aboriginal people of the Canberra region have welcomed our federal parliament onto their land. This has never happened before and in fact, Aboriginal people have protested the Australian parliament and it's decisions with a
'tent embassy' for many many years.
This historic welcome anticipates the apology our new Prime Minister is set to offer the Aboriginal people of this land tomorrow. An apology for all the injustice, murder and dispossession these people have suffered at the hands of white settlers right up to this very day.
You may say that an apology is only words. That it means nothing, and perhaps it will in the end, but in the spirit of the gravity with which this apology is being offered, I, along with many millions of my fellow Australians can only hope that this is the first big step on the path to
reconciliation.
Its all been said before though.
Not in this way and certainly not with the same intent. I agree that it's no magical fix for all the problems, but it's a better start than ever before.
Also, the Aboriginal people have never before welcomed the parliament onto their traditional land before.
The underlying problem has long been understood:
The Gods Must Be Crazy.
I've seen the movie tw. I fail to see connection you're trying to make.
I fail to see connection you're trying to make.
Maybe you take Australians too seriously. Obviously, I don't.
Maybe you don't make much sense.
Maybe you don't make much sense.
I'm sorry. I have a bad habit of making my posts too long.
:eek:
did he just say what i think he said?!
I'm sorry. I have a bad habit of making my posts too long.
^^^ I just had to see that again^^^
You really can be a very funny guy tw
did he just say what i think he said?!
As soon as I get a copy of UG's unabridged thesaurus, long sentences can be replaced with big words. What is a single word that says the gods must be crazy - in past tense?
Congrats, we owe the American Indians a similar process.
Can't wait to see the bill for reparations to the Arbos.
Can't wait to see the bill for reparations to the Arbos.
The American Indians are getting theirs through unregulated and uncontrolled gaming on reservation land.
The American Indians are getting theirs through unregulated and uncontrolled gaming on reservation land.
Unregulated by whom and on whose land?
Can't wait to see the bill for reparations to the Arbos.
There's no 'r' in abos and it's a derogatory word/title used only by those too ignorant to know better.
With regard to compensation. I'm sure there'll be claims by some but not others. I hope they'll be considered on an individual basis rather than as one big settlement to be split up between all claimants regardless of merit.
sounds like Abos is akin to Niggers in the states. inside the states Abos/abors/abros/abdfh means nothing. I honestly don't know anything about your aboriginal issues, but my gut tells me it probably isn't too much differnt than our Indian issues.
Reparations? Apologies? Why? WTF did I do? I don't owe the folks that live on the reservations in the states one damn thing beyond the same courtesy i extend to all people i meet. I am not responsible for the actions of distant generations and don't understand the mindset of those who feel guilty for someone else's actions.
It's not about feeling guilty. It's about finding a way to move forward from the difficult past faced by both indigenous and non indigenous people. It's a step towards the unification of all Australians.
The speaches in parliament were just broadcast and both sides of the house were unified in their words and actions.
Today is a new day in the history of Australia. My only hope personally is that the new government and the opposition have begun as they mean to go on.
I'm still waiting for my apology from the damn Poms for putting my ancestors on a boat for stealing bread.
Yeah well we all know that's never going to happen. ;)
Besides, I'd rather live here than there anyway. We have much better weather. :)
I'm still waiting for my apology from the damn Poms for putting my ancestors on a boat for stealing bread.
What? There are people who scrimp and save their whole lives, for a cruise to the South Pacific.
I like ducks nuts.
not afraid to cop to being descended from penal colony inhabitants. much respect.
I hope you guys do better by your native displaced than we did. we just conquered and segregated the native Americans. And while I understand lookout's point.....I do, honestly, feel a little guilty...vicariously about the way the white man has comported himself... as a whole.....in the past.
I have a deep admiration for the way the Native Americans used to live, and the way they are forced to survive today, to me at least, is kind of depressing.
Wind in His Hair would be furious about the current state of affairs. KWIM?
I loved digging up all the family dirt when I did the family tree.
I'm actually descended from a stowaway and the daughter of a bread thief.
I had to dig deep with my deceased Grandmother (Dad's side), she was found with a single bullet wound to the head and left on the side of the road....not far from where I currently live.
Seems she was having an affair and her lover shot her because she wouldnt leave Pa.
He then went on to become a Hermit.
I do, honestly, feel a little guilty...vicariously about the way the white man has comported himself... as a whole.....in the past.
I think I understand what you are saying too. It isn't like I'm sitting here laughing at "those dirty injuns gettin' what they had comin'". I just don't understand the concept of feeling guilty about something that I had no possible way of preventing. I feel sympathy for those wronged. I feel disgust for those who were in the wrong. But I feel no guilt.
Really, what percentage of guilt should I feel? 100% Certainly not - I'm 1/16 Cherokee. 90%? No, I have to account for my Swedish blood that didn't come here until the early 1900's. 25%? Well, I think my Scottish great great great grandfather did serve in the Army. I'll bet he did some bad shit. I'll feel guilty for his actions. Just a little though, ok. Or would that guilt be negated by the guilt I should feel for my Cherokee ancestors killing white settlers... I'm so confused.
Unregulated by whom and on whose land?
On their land which is out of all federal and state jurisdiction.
Yeah, exactly. Are you twigged that
Macau, bigger than Las Vegas, is outside federal and state jurisdiction too?
Yeah, exactly. Are you twigged that Macau, bigger than Las Vegas, is outside federal and state jurisdiction too?
No, that would Portugal's problem.
It really has nothing about guilt but understanding what has happened. We didn't kill or kick out any of the American Indians but we did benefit from it.
If my and your family are out on the street and decide to take over Merc's house so we have a place to stay and your father goes in, kills Merc's family, and we both move in. Neither of us did any of the killing and we may be friends with Merc's kid but the fact is that both me and you benefit from your dad killing Merc and that Merc's kid is directly hurt from you killing his father.
We as a nation and a group of people have to recognize what we did, how we still benefit from it today, and stop treating the American Indians like savages.
I recognize what other people did. I acknowledge that I live on land that once belonged to someone else. (But you see - I bought and paid for the land I live on) Depending on who you ask and what year you are talking about it may have been mexicans or indians. I see both mexicans and indians each and every day of my life and it's been awhile since I tried to barter with them with them using beads and firewater.
Seriously get over your self hate. Quit buying the hype that all these people are living lives of horror and you are to blame because you are white. Would it help if I walked down the street and grabbed a random mexican or indian and offered them an apology and cash?
How much? And what exactly would I be apologizing for? That someone they never met, their great great great grandparent might have had a bad dealing with my great great great grandparent who I never met?
Being aware of the past does not mean you have to dwell in it. I certainly don't expect any apologetic feelings from dana or Sundae Girl, and I'm pretty sure that someone from the UK might have wronged someone from Scotland at some point. This dwelling in the past has to stop if you ever want to move on.
We as a nation and a group of people have to recognize what we did, how we still benefit from it today, and stop treating the American Indians like savages.
**Bold for my emphasis**
But I don't treat them as savages - never have, never will. Did I benefit from whatever happened? I don't know. My great grandparents didn't arrive in this country till 1888. They settled in New England, lived, worked and died there. My grandparents? - same story. They went to Philadelphia once.
My question is: How much culpability should I bear? What is my level of responsibility, or my children's? I think ZERO, and giving one dime to the Indians
could be argued as depriving my children from that "money" or whatever.
I have to agree with PH's stance. He's got it right from the perspective of non indigenous australians. We have benefited from what our ancestors did, and aboriginal people have suffered because of what our ancestors did, and are still doing in some ways.
For instance, before white people arrived here, Aboriginal people did not have alcohol at all, but now that we're here, alcohol is the number one cause of death among Aboriginal people. The things white people brought to Aboriginal people have been far more harmful than any advantages all the new racists seem to think they have.
It seems to me that you face the same types of problems in the US with regard to attitudes towards indigenous people. I'm glad Australia as a nation hasn't taken 400 years plus to see that. I am hopeful of a more positive future for all of us.
Did I benefit from whatever happened? I don't know.
Let's see...
My great grandparents didn't arrive in this country till 1888. They settled in New England, lived, worked and died there.
Yes, obviously.
I recognize what other people did. I acknowledge that I live on land that once belonged to someone else. (But you see - I bought and paid for the land I live on)
Receiving stolen property?
Receiving stolen property?
ROTFLMAO!!!! Good one. What a load of crap.:D
Receiving stolen property?
You can keep on living in your guilt ridden world, I'll sleep quite comfortably in my shame free slumber.
If they want my land back, bring it on.
You can keep on living in your guilt ridden world, I'll sleep quite comfortably in my shame free slumber.
You can acknowledge something was wrong without feeling personal guilt over it.
You can acknowledge something was wrong without feeling personal guilt over it.
Better yet, when are you giving up your place HM????? you guilt ridden poor baby. Live up to your ideals and give away all your shit you hypocrite.:D
I don't understand why some people don't get it.
All of us, including our indigenous people have to acknowledge that the world must move forward and that you can't take back the actions of the past, but surely you can see how much it might mean to someone by simply acknowledging that what was done by your ancestors was wrong?
In Australia, no one is calling for everyone but indigenous people to leave. No one is suggesting that Aboriginal people should get to claim all the land. People are simply coming to realize that past decisions have had dire consequences for many people and that it should be acknowledged out of simple respect if nothing else.
I don't understand why some people don't get it.
All of us, including our indigenous people have to acknowledge that the world must move forward and that you can't take back the actions of the past, but surely you can see how much it might mean to someone by simply acknowledging that what was done by your ancestors was wrong?
In Australia, no one is calling for everyone but indigenous people to leave. No one is suggesting that Aboriginal people should get to claim all the land. People are simply coming to realize that past decisions have had dire consequences for many people and that it should be acknowledged out of simple respect if nothing else.
In America I totally get it. Just don't ask me for money because of it.:D
In Australia, no one is calling for everyone but indigenous people to leave. No one is suggesting that Aboriginal people should get to claim all the land. People are simply coming to realize that past decisions have had dire consequences for many people and that it should be acknowledged out of simple respect if nothing else.
I don't quite get it. Is the general population suddenly coming to this conclusion? Or the government? Or is it suddenly politically correct to state this? I don't get why this is a sudden and major event as if diplomats suddenly signed a major treaty? What is it that makes this ceremony so significant or necessary?
It's not sudden. It's been coming for decades now, and probably would have happened sooner but our previous conservative government was too afraid to acknowledge any wrong because they felt similarly to Merc and lookout. That is to say, they refused to see that this event could be the start of a healing process between indigenous and non indigenous australians and prefered to think that if they did they'd be accepting guilt and possible financial losses. This topic has been debated in the public forum for years and years.
Maybe this will cost money, but whatever that cost is, I say it is a small price to pay for giving Aboriginal people back their dignity.
I am not responsible for the actions of distant generations
Distant? How distant?
Certainly in terms of the 'Lost Generations' of aboriginal people, we really aren't talking such a long time ago.
I think it's a very good and civilised move on the part of the Australian government.
Maybe this will cost money, but whatever that cost is, I say it is a small price to pay for giving Aboriginal people back their dignity.
Probably more important: will it make them a better member of the assimilated nation called Australia? Probably the most difficult part of correcting such wrongs is to make the discriminated a productive and welcome member of that society.
Will this accomplish the goal? I have not a clue. But I suspect that most important objective is the ultimate intent.
The Gods Must Be Crazy is a favorite movie. The aboriginal is the only sane person as he disposes of that coke bottle. But only he (and maybe the coke bottle) knows it.
Maybe this will cost money, but whatever that cost is, I say it is a small price to pay for giving Aboriginal people back their dignity.
Dignity didnt come with a price tag last I heard.
The first compensation claim was starting before the apology was even finished.
How does this help the young Aboriginal girls being raped in the NT by their relatives, the alcohol abuse and the other problems that are occurring now.
I just think the money would be better spent on the issues of TODAY, than dwelling on something that was a law and that is out of control.
Dignity didnt come with a price tag last I heard.
The first compensation claim was starting before the apology was even finished.
How does this help the young Aboriginal girls being raped in the NT by their relatives, the alcohol abuse and the other problems that are occurring now.
I just think the money would be better spent on the issues of TODAY, than dwelling on something that was a law and that is out of control.
People, regardless of who they are have the right to seek compensation if they feel they deserve it. It is for the legal system to decide if there is any paid or not. I'm fairly ambivalent about that particular point at this stage. There are good arguments for both sides of the fence.
How does it help the social problems faced by Aboriginal people? My hope is that in time, if Aboriginal people are able to find their pride as a people things will change. As I've said previously, this is the first step in the road, but I believe this is a very long road we are facing as a nation. There's no quick fixes. It requires dedication and perseverance by all of us to ensure better outcomes for all our future generations, both indigenous and non indigenous.
Aboriginal people are able to find their pride as a people things will change.
If they need outside affirmation to find their pride they're too fucked to ever find it anyway.
If they need an apology to decide to move on, then the apology won't change anything either.
If they are mired in a miserable existence because someone handed their grandfather a bottle of liquor then reparations won't help them one bit.
What you do with your life is a personal choice.
Why should the fact that an apology solves nothing in and of itself mean anything?
An apology hurts nobody. Reparations, on the level of the government, hurt nobody any worse than the 3.8 million they spent trying to brainstorm ways to cut useless spending.
Some things aren't about exactly how much good they'll concretely do, about how much some arguably empty words and speeches accomplish... some things are just plain old manners. Apologizing is the right thing to do because its just nice. Don't gimme some bullshit about how its not your fault what your ancestors did; if a guy came up to you on the street and told you that your dad wronged him, you wouldn't haughtily tell him that its not your fault, even though it isn't your fault, you just apologize for his misbehavior and move on. Cause it's just good manners. Speak for those who can't speak for themselves anymore, and apologize for their sake.
Apologizing to those that your ancestors wronged isn't for the wronged's sake, it's for your ancestor's sake.
Reparations, on the level of the government, hurt nobody any worse than the 3.8 million they spent trying to brainstorm ways to cut useless spending.
Except for the fact that they set a legal precedent for anyone and everyone who has ever had something unfair done to them to sue for reparations.
The part about this that I find so sad is that so many people can only see the bad that can come of it and not the good. All they can think of is 'what will I have to give up if this happens in my country' or 'I'm not responsible for what my ancestors did'.
If that's the case, stop your going on about how wonderful your constitution is. You didn't write it. Stop saying what great men your founding fathers were. You're not them. Stop saying how fantastic it was when you beat the British. You weren't there.
If you want to celebrate and take credit for the good things your ancestors did, you must also be willing to accept that they did some pretty bad shit too, and some time sooner or later, you're going to have to acknowledge it.
It happened, it was a looooong time ago - lets all move on. It didn't happen to you and I didn't do it so whats the point in dwelling on it? Reparations are a waste of time because all partied involved are long dead.
No, all parties are not long dead. In fact, there are plenty still in the land of the living.
Not here there aren't. In Australia? Yes and I've long ago said good for you and them. I was referring to the US.
Seriously get over your self hate. Quit buying the hype that all these people are living lives of horror and you are to blame because you are white.
Where is my self hate? When have I ever said I feel guilty for being white? What I do realize is that all the advantages I have in life is a result of what my people's ancestors did to others who children are still at a disadvantage to this day. If that is self hate, the idea that everyone should have equal treatment, then fuck you.
Would it help if I walked down the street and grabbed a random mexican or indian and offered them an apology and cash?
Stop with the stupid remarks, both you and I know that wouldn't accomplish anything except making an individual feel better about what an entire group did.
How much? And what exactly would I be apologizing for? That someone they never met, their great great great grandparent might have had a bad dealing with my great great great grandparent who I never met?
Where did I ever say an apology was needed from an individual? The only way to solve racial problems is when a society decides to get rid of a supremacist doctrine. And no, it isn't just that their triple great grandparent got fucked by your triple great grandparent. It is that other people are still hurt and you still benefit from what your triple great grandparent did.
Being aware of the past does not mean you have to dwell in it. I certainly don't expect any apologetic feelings from dana or Sundae Girl, and I'm pretty sure that someone from the UK might have wronged someone from Scotland at some point. This dwelling in the past has to stop if you ever want to move on.
The reason no apology is needed from Britain to Scotland is because the people in Scotland are not currently at a disadvantage from what happened in the past as opposed to the natives in the United States or Aboriginals in Australia.
But I don't treat them as savages - never have, never will.
Individuals do not matter; it is how the group treats them. The Nazi's were anti-semitic but does that mean every German was? No. Whites in America are treated and looked at as more civilized than natives, hence why I said what I did.
And also, I live in Minnesota, so I do see more racism against natives than usual.
My question is: How much culpability should I bear? What is my level of responsibility, or my children's? I think ZERO, and giving one dime to the Indians could be argued as depriving my children from that "money" or whatever.
How much culpability should you bear? How can you measure that? It certainty can’t be measured in money. The fact is that you benefit and people of color are hurt from what happened in the past so you can either move on and treat people of color like equals and do a small part that probably won’t change anything or you can fully embrace white supremacy and probably won’t change anything. You as an individual can only help or hurt individuals unless you can somehow change the system so just accept what happened and live your life and try not to embrace white supremacy.
Monetary reparations won’t do anything in my opinion so lets stop talking about them. The best way to repay people of color for what our ancestors did is to allow them to create their own institutions and have equal opportunity, which unfortunately will be seen as a threat to many whites, and the general public treating people of color as equals to whites.
You can keep on living in your guilt ridden world, I'll sleep quite comfortably in my shame free slumber.
You don’t have to have my stance on the issue and feel guilty. If I was guilty I would give up my whiteness to an unneeded extreme by seriously breaking social norms in terms of dress and actions. Of course I wouldn’t be helping anyone and just hurt myself, and would only affect my view of myself.
In America I totally get it. Just don't ask me for money because of it.
As I said before, monetary help won’t do anything. If reparations are going to work, it has to be in the form of institutions and equal opportunity, which I hope you are not opposed too.
It happened, it was a looooong time ago - lets all move on. It didn't happen to you and I didn't do it so whats the point in dwelling on it? Reparations are a waste of time because all partied involved are long dead.
It doesn’t matter what happened how long ago, all that matter is how are people affected by it today. If no one is affected by it anymore, than there is no need to dwell on it but if people are negatively affected by it today, than it is natural to dwell on it and find out realistic ways we can prevent their children from being negatively affected by it.
Lets put it this way Classicman. If we are running a race in 2 months and I break your leg, and rehurt it every week after that and by the time the race comes around, you are still at a disadvantage. I can say “it was two months ago” all I want but the fact is that you are still hurt from it and we do not have equality. Just acknowledge the fact that we are not equal and live your life without hurting anyone in the future because the wound should naturally heal if given enough time and a chance to heal.
Only their parents can prevent the children from being negatively affected by the past.
Somehow I doubt that, especially since many of their mothers are working two jobs without a father!
There are other variables in a child's life besides parents too. Parents may be the most important, but there are other factors. To just completely ignore intelligence level, personality, social expectations, personal traumas, teachers, friends, social environment, and school's effectiveness is just foolish.
Bullshit PS - there are more friggin programs to help the disadvantaged and the vast majority of those programs are being abused by those who were intended to benefit from them. Its time to stop trying to make up for whatever happened a hundred years ago, look forward and move on. To completely try and make up for something that one really cannot is foolish and although your idealistic view is commendable, its just not going to, nor should it happen.
its just not going to, nor should it happen.
Maybe it wont happen, but as far as whether if should or shouldn't is highly subjective. I'd suggest that it's your opinion that it shouldn't. Not necessarily a fact.
Absolutely - nothing more nor less than my opinion. As it should be.
(disclaimer: I am referring to the U.S. situation - not Australia)
Bullshit PS - there are more friggin programs to help the disadvantaged and the vast majority of those programs are being abused by those who were intended to benefit from them. Its time to stop trying to make up for whatever happened a hundred years ago, look forward and move on. To completely try and make up for something that one really cannot is foolish and although your idealistic view is commendable, its just not going to, nor should it happen.
The programs failed because they are flawed from the beginning. We tried to help people of color by integrating them into white institutions. The only way to help them is to allow them to create their own institutions. Stop allowing whites to create programs to help blacks, most white people have no perspective on how to help people of color, the only people that can do that are people of color. I have met some people that have some much better ideas then the ones implemented right now....I wonder why.
And who's putting up the money for these "black institutions"?
No PH, the programs are currently failing because they are being abused.
As I said before, monetary help won’t do anything. If reparations are going to work, it has to be in the form of institutions and equal opportunity, which I hope you are not opposed too.
I am all for equal opportunity for all, regardless of color, based purely on merit. Not advantages for some, because of color.
And who's putting up the money for these "black institutions"?
I'm not quite exactly sure but I doubt there would be much more funding.
Having black children taught by black teachers and run under a black administration won't cost much more.
No PH, the programs are currently failing because they are being abused.
Yes, because they are set up in such a way that many people's rational decision is to abuse the system.
Having black children taught by black teachers and run under a black administration won't cost much more.
I'm not sure that returning to segregation is the best way forward, however it is certainly beneficial for children to relate to their teachers.
I don't like segregation either but integration has failed, we are still mostly segregated by race. I doubt America would fully segregate again anyways, we would have to learn to live with each other.
There's nothing wrong with having black and white teachers in schools, just as there should be black and white students. I don't think affirmative action is the answer, but I definitely think that headmasters (or whoever does the hiring) should consider the cultural needs of the children when making staffing decisions. Kids don't necessarily need same culture teachers all the time, but it's good if they do some of the time. That creates a greater learning environment for all students and teachers.
integration has failed
not for everyone.
I don't like segregation either but integration has failed, we are still mostly segregated by race. I doubt America would fully segregate again anyways, we would have to learn to live with each other.
What??? Do you have any idea how much has changed in that last few generations???? And you want to go back to separate but equal? :headshake
I don't like segregation either but integration has failed, we are still mostly segregated by race. I doubt America would fully segregate again anyways, we would have to learn to live with each other.
Holy shit - PH you have no idea how far we have come in just the last 20 let alone 50 years! Failed???? Not by a long shot! As a country,
we are learning to live with each other and integrate more and more all the time. If anything, there need to be less programs so that stigma is also removed.
The reason no apology is needed from Britain to Scotland is because the people in Scotland are not currently at a disadvantage from what happened in the past as opposed to the natives in the United States or Aboriginals in Australia.
And then there is this in today's news:
Anti-English sentiment 'as big a threat to Scots as sectarianism'
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/antienglish-sentiment-as-big-a--threat-to-scots-as-sectarianism-783540.htmlNo reparations in the US. None. Nada. It ain't going to happen. Our gene pool is to diluted to prove much more than we are a big mix of dna. Only the smallest minority of blacks could prove they were direct descendents of slaves. Only the smallest minority of whites could prove they were slave owners. I don't think we need to be paying anyone for the minority errors of a minority.
I worded that really badly.
We have made many great improvements in the United States but we are still a segregated country. Most schools are either a black/Latino or white school and the integrated schools are usually divided by the students.
Separate but equal is obviously something that should be avoided because it is unrealistic but ideas such as the Afro-centered schools and what not should be encouraged in my opinion.
I worded that really badly.
...Most schools are either a black/Latino or white school and the integrated schools are usually divided by the students.
...ideas such as the Afro-centered schools and what not should be encouraged in my opinion.
Rest assured, you are continuing to word it badly.
So which is it, pierce? Are we too segregated, or not segregated enough?
Your line of thought via your wording seems to be flawed - that is unlike you. Based upon what you are typing - I totally disagree.
My logic is based on an idea that seems to be a paradox, that segregation can be integration.
Here are my premises for my logic:
[list]
[*]Separate but equal will fail and go in favor of whites
[*]We are two integrated for complete segregation
[*]We are still mostly segregated by neighborhoods and schools
[*]Black children perform better under black institutions
[*]Forcing white and black children to go to school together does not mean integration or they get the same benefit out of school
[/list]
My argument is based off of these premises.
As of now, we are segregated by neighborhoods and schools. Inner city schools are mostly black and Latino, rural schools are usually whites, well off suburban schools are usually white, and not as well off suburban schools are more mixed, but a lot of times the children segregate themselves anyways. Throughout the United States, there is a disparity in education levels of whites and blacks in their respective segregated schools, and even in mixed schools, white children tend to do better than black children. To counter this, I agree with the proposals that we stop forced integration and allow the mostly black schools to become more afro-centric, run by black teachers under a black administration. This will then put more black children through high school, college, and finally higher paying and more powerful jobs. This split, while segregating, will eventually force integration on a larger level that has not been seen before in the United States. When more blacks get higher paying and powerful jobs, they will be able to move out of the cities and mostly black areas to other areas that have been formally occupied by whites, further forcing integration and tolerance. We can not completely segregate anyways, so that shouldn't be a large problem.
Though, if blacks do perform self-determination, there can be some drawbacks. First, allowing blacks to have self-determination will be a big obstacle, which can be seen through the heavy resistance to the afro-centric school in Toronto and my idea right now. Second, if blacks do become powerful and start representing a non-white agenda, there will be a power struggle and closet racists will come out of their shell because they will start to feel threatened.
That is my idea, it is obviously very controversial but could work effectively if a power struggle does not follow.
My logic is based on an idea that seems to be a paradox, that segregation can be integration.
Here are my premises for my logic:
[list]
[*]Separate but equal will fail and go in favor of whites
[*]We are two integrated for complete segregation
[*]We are still mostly segregated by neighborhoods and schools
[*]Black children perform better under black institutions
[*]Forcing white and black children to go to school together does not mean integration or they get the same benefit out of school
[/list]
I withhold judgement because I do not understand the underlying logic - the reason 'why' - behind that conclusion. It leaves me to believe I neither understand piercehawkeyes45's conclusion nor grasp the logic in his underlying reasons.
If segregation creates a better educated black population, it also encourages a racist white one. A better educated population also raised with a 'them vs us' perspective - are they really better educated?
Most whites go to almost all white schools anyways so I don't see how it would change anything.
But I find it funny that the biggest obstacle against this is what white people think when it really doesn't affect them.
But I find it funny that the biggest obstacle against this is what white people think when it really doesn't affect them.
Bullshit. We all live in this world together, you can't pretend that this wouldn't affect
everybody. Including hispanics and asians... and by the way, where do they go to school? Do they have their own school too? But, surely none of this would affect anybody at all.
What I find "funny" is this:
Second, if blacks do become powerful and start representing a non-white agenda, there will be a power struggle and closet racists will come out of their shell because they will start to feel threatened.
So...you've already decided that the only reason to disagree with your plan would be racism? "If you don't like it, you're a racist!"
Like, I could propose a new tax reform law, and stipulate that "If you disagree with this, it is because you are a stinking commie bastard!" ...
Doesn't really affect them? Are you high?
What is the difference between an afro-centric school and a mostly black school?
The difference is that you're a racist-ass whitey. Didn't you read that part?
shut up flint. you're just a racist who living a sheltered white life. if you were intellectually honest you would admit the best way to bring about racial harmony and equality is to separate people along racial lines and... wait... oh nevermind, that's complete bullshit.
No no, see, the point is not getting all black students into one school, it's getting them all black teachers. And obviously, they must only have mostly-white teaching staffs now because of racist hiring policies, since there is a huge demand among all teachers to be allowed to work in inner-city schools.
We should just force more black college graduates to be public school teachers.
It's worse than that, even. I think the black teachers we have aren't black enough.
They're teaching this "let's all get together and try to get along" stuff instead of a strong black agenda.
So then this is
good news I guess?
DECATUR, Georgia (AP) -- Jason Johnston took a job at mostly black Midway Elementary School in hopes he could make a difference with the children who needed him most.
But Johnston, one of only a handful of white teachers at the school, decided to leave after less than a year, disillusioned by pupils who struggled, parents who weren't involved and the constant pressure to meet state achievement standards.
...
However, there simply aren't enough black teachers to go around. Only 20 percent of Georgia teachers are black, but black students make up 40 percent of the public school population.
ph, have you changed your opinion with regard to this issue at all after the comments above?
i highly doubt that aliantha. pierce's view of life would prevent any possible changing of ideas on the matter.
Don't be so quick to judge lookout. He's still young and still forming his ways of viewing the world. You could be wrong.
I'll be interested to know what PH has to say for himself before I say much more about it myself.
I'll be interested to know what PH has to say for himself before I say much more about it myself.
Reminds me of this I saw earlier today.
Don't be so quick to judge lookout.
yeah, my comment does come off more harshly than i intended. It wasn't meant as a judgment of his rightness/wrongness or ability to learn. But with his starting point on social/economic topics it would be difficult for him to change his opinion regardless of the comments he reads.
Maybe, but there's hope for us all yet. Hold on to that and try not to be such a cynic. ;)
I don't see how I put off a "you either agree with it or you're a racist" ultimatium.
Second, if blacks do become powerful and start representing a non-white agenda, there will be a power struggle and closet racists will come out of their shell because they will start to feel threatened.
But I find it funny that the biggest obstacle against this is what white people think when it really doesn't affect them.
I still stand by both of these statements to a point. The first statement was pointing out how I believe some liberal whites will feel threatened if blacks get power and will become open racists. The idea that some white liberals want to help out people of color as long as whites remain supreme is not an invalid observation. Many white liberals do treat people of color like children who can not be successful without white people's help. That is still racism, but that obviously does not apply to every white person or white liberal so it wasn't an absolute statement. It also just talked about a reaction to what I am proposing, it has nothing to do with disagreeing with the initial plan.
The second statement depends on how detailed you want to go. For me, how an inner city school is run does not directly affect my life or my education. If you disagree with me or if it does affect you in a direct way, then say something instead of asking me if I'm high or throwing in satire.
No no, see, the point is not getting all black students into one school, it's getting them all black teachers. And obviously, they must only have mostly-white teaching staffs now because of racist hiring policies, since there is a huge demand among all teachers to be allowed to work in inner-city schools.
We should just force more black college graduates to be public school teachers.
I am not advocating forcing anything, separating society any more than it is, making anything absolute, or do anything radical. There are people within those communities that are more than qualified in solving those problems, I am saying we let them decide what to do with their schools. There was controversy on the afro-centric school and I agree with that type of reform, it isn't radical, it isn't forceful, it is just making the best out of the situation they have, and I do not disagree with what they are doing.
i highly doubt that aliantha. pierce's view of life would prevent any possible changing of ideas on the matter.
What is my view on life lookout123?
There are people within those communities that are more than qualified in solving those problems, I am saying we let them decide what to do with their schools.
But this is obviously false. Who is it that is setting up the afro-centric school in Canada? The existing,
white school board. They are receiving some resistance--from people who, it should be noted, resist the idea because they truly believe it isn't going to help, not because they want to see black kids oppressed--but it's still going to happen, and they will have a chance to see if it works. You act as if there are all these individuals in the community who are being kept from implementing their ideas, yet the number one complaint from struggling schools is lack of community support, especially from parents. If, as you implied, you have "met" lots of black people who have better ideas about how to run local schools, by all means encourage them to go into public education! If they are even moderately successful they will rise to a position of power very quickly, because as it has been pointed out, most professionals in these urban areas burn out and quit after a single year. Or encourage them to go into politics and change policies from that angle. The reality is there is nothing stopping them, except perhaps their own false belief that the 'white man' will somehow keep them from doing it.
What is my view on life lookout123?
Wow. Can I put my foot in my mouth, or what? Anyway, to answer your question you first I need you to understand that, to my way of thinking, your view isn't "wrong" or "inferior" in any just because it is different than mine. If we all had the same perspective on life then the world we live in would be REALLY screwed up as we all ignore the same things to focus on our own hot topics.
My observations suggest to me that you see a lot more victims in the world than I do. You see downtrodden, victimized people where I see people who are living with the consequences of their decisions. You see people with nearly insurmountable odds stacked against them, I see people with great potential and opportunity, just waiting to make a decision.
I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right. I think we're both a bit wrong and right.
OK, with regard to what PH is proposing, indigenous people in Australia had their own governing body for a while. It was set up in an anglo saxon form, but was run by indigenous people for the benefit of indigenous people. There were elections and referendums. There were news letters and all sorts of other stuff. Web pages and the like. The list goes on. The point of the body was to improve indigenous lifestyles and to give indigenous people in this country a voice.
Unfortunately, not enough indigenous people actually participated in the process. There simply wasn't any interest - or so the word is anyway - so it was closed down a few years ago.
I think this body was a fantastic idea and should have been workable. I hope that it is reinstated now that we have a new government, and I believe it will be. But like what happened here, sometimes even the people they're designed to help don't want to get involved.
anyway, I just thought I'd share that with you so you can ruminate on it.
BTW PH, have you changed your views at all?
Why would you want it to be reinstated if it failed the first time due to non-involvement? If it were brought back to fail a second time, wouldn't that just make them feel worse about themselves? And, if they wanted it back, wouldn't they be calling for that? I mean, you can't make them want it.
Because I think it has a better chance of success now. The atmosphere in Australia has changed towards indigenous people and the governing body is likely to have more support, not just among indigenous people, but non indigenous as well.
Many indigenous people have been protesting since it was closed in the first place citing racist attitudes by our previous government.
There's a lot more to it than what I've written here. You can find more info at
this site if you're interested.
BTW PH, have you changed your views at all?
My views are constantly changing and being redefined. The question is how much have my views changed.
Right now, I'm not exactly sure where my ideas fall under the realistic or idealistic area because of a lack of experience and knowledge of the area. I have talked to people that truly believe that they can make reforms, and people that have views more similar to Clod where the situation is so bad that one type of reform won't accomplish anything.
Until the true problems are found, if they already aren't, there isn't much that can be done and I firmly believe that what will help the most is a major change in the social forces in the area. This will not only come from parents, but from peers and other role models as well, which I am 99% sure is strongly lacking as of now. The idea of having black institutions or at least the appearance of black institutions is that it will hopefully spark something that will make the social forces in favor of education stronger in those communities. Will it work, I have no idea.
I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right. I think we're both a bit wrong and right.
I agree. On topics such as socio-economics I firmly believe there is no wrong or right, but just personal preference and what is realistic according the situation at hand.
With reference to what you just said, I tend to see people more influenced by social forces than being a true representation of who they are as individuals.
Rap and Hip Hop don't help, either.
Rap and hip hop was decent until it become commercialized. The underground stuff is much better.
Let me rephrase that.... Rap and Hip Hop artists examples of attitude don't help either. Hardly good role models.
I know what you meant. The commercialized hip hop is horrible in that respect, underground isn't as bad, a lot of it is actually very good, but some are pretty extreme and nationalistic for many tastes.