Muslims say: Put Christ back in Christmas

xoxoxoBruce • Dec 15, 2007 11:38 pm

london - Muslim leaders joined Britain's equality watchdog Monday in urging Britons to enjoy Christmas without worrying about offending non-Christians.

"It's time to stop being daft about Christmas. It's fine to celebrate and it's fine for Christ to be star of the show," said Trevor Phillips, chairman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission.

Mr. Phillips, reflecting on media reports of schools scrapping nativity plays and local councils celebrating "Winterval" instead of Christmas, worried the unintended consequences of secularizing the holiday would "fuel community tension."

So he joined forces with minority religious leaders to put out a blunt message to the politically correct: leave Christmas alone.

Muslim Council of Britain spokesman Shayk Ibrahim Mogra said, "To suggest celebrating Christmas and having decorations offends Muslims is absurd. Why can't we have more nativity scenes in Britain?"

"Hindus celebrate Christmas, too. It's a great holiday for everyone living in Britain," said Anil Bhanot, general secretary of the UK Hindu Council.

Sikh spokesman Indarjit Singh said: "Every year I am asked 'Do I object to the celebration of Christmas?' It's an absurd question. As ever, my family and I will send out our Christmas cards to our Christian friends and others."

More than 70 percent of Britons – some 41 million – are Christian, according to 2001 census figures. Muslims are the second-largest religious group with about 1.6 million in Britain.

It nice to see some people thinking clearly.

classicman • Dec 16, 2007 2:17 am

squeaky wheel theory. bout time they came to their senses.

Kitsune • Dec 16, 2007 11:02 am

Wait...this was an issue? How?

slang • Dec 16, 2007 11:57 am

xoxoxoBruce;416997 wrote:
It nice to see some people thinking clearly.

Yes, now if the secularists could just relax a bit we could all sing kumbaya as one big happy family. :)

xoxoxoBruce • Dec 16, 2007 1:16 pm

Kitsune;417086 wrote:
Wait...this was an issue? How?

It certainly has been for the PC police.

SteveDallas • Dec 16, 2007 3:03 pm

Another IMO excellent take on the subject.

Kitsune • Dec 16, 2007 3:44 pm

xoxoxoBruce;417122 wrote:
It certainly has been for the PC police.

Sounds like its time for the "war on Christmas" to heat up, again. :rolleyes:

Let's see some examples, then, of the "PC police" forcing people stifle their merriment. I haven't seen anything that leads me to believe people are scared into this stupidness.

xoxoxoBruce • Dec 16, 2007 4:11 pm

I suggest you call the schools in your area, or any major corporation, and ask them what they plan on doing for Christmas. I'm willing to bet every one will tell you they are having a winter break... or some such euphemism.

@ SD, excellent link.

Kitsune • Dec 16, 2007 4:53 pm

xoxoxoBruce;417136 wrote:
I suggest you call the schools in your area, or any major corporation, and ask them what they plan on doing for Christmas. I'm willing to bet every one will tell you they are having a winter break... or some such euphemism.

Taxpayer funded public schools not endorsing a religious holiday? This is not a surprise and certainly has nothing to do with people being "afraid" to wish people a Merry Christmas or "offending others". (Hint: public schools are secular.) Private schools, I'm assuming, would have a different answer.

The major corporation I work for has "Christmas Day" marked as an employee holiday this year (as they have for as long as anyone can remember), although that will change in the future -- we will not be given the day off. In its place, all employees will be given an extra floating holiday off to do with as they please. In my work environment in which a very large portion of the company doesn't celebrate Christmas, the change makes excellent business sense. For all the people that feel the need to complain about this, anyway: they'll get over it, their religion doesn't change, they still get the day off, the gifts will open the same, etc, etc.

And, yeah, I've heard all about how [major box store name here] is selling "Holiday Trees" this year or that [other major box store name here] has their employees say "Happy Holidays" to customers. In a population with varied beliefs, making your business appeal to everyone is good for money. What do you think December 25th really, honestly means to major retailers in this country? It's about selling as much crap to as many people as possible and that is no different than even fifty years ago. But selling Christmas decorations to people that don't even celebrate it? Pure business genius. My officemate started buying presents for her kids and putting up lights on her house but has no inkling of what the holiday means to Christians. They do it "because everyone else does" and don't feel any real religious attachment to giving their kids video games or putting a inflatable Santa in their yard.

So, really, the whole "Christmas fear" -- are you or anyone you know afraid to wish people "Merry Christmas" for fear of offending someone? Know anyone that is? I don't and I'm fairly certain the idea is made up to scare all the people that, for some reason, feel the need to have their most sacred beliefs validated by the wording on department store advertisement fliers.

In the end, no one is really being pressured by the "PC police" to keep their religious ideas away from others -- everyone is just as religiously free, in this country, as they ever were. Nothing the media has reported on in this "war" can change that.

xoxoxoBruce • Dec 16, 2007 5:22 pm

Kitsune;417147 wrote:
Taxpayer funded public schools not endorsing a religious holiday? This is not a surprise and certainly has nothing to do with people being "afraid" to wish people a Merry Christmas or "offending others". (Hint: public schools are secular.) Private schools, I'm assuming, would have a different answer.

They closed for Christmas, they will close for Christmas, but they are not allowed to say so any more. Closing for Christmas is hardly endorsing a religious holiday in the USA... ask your officemate.

The major corporation I work for has "Christmas Day" marked as an employee holiday this year (as they have for as long as anyone can remember),

They are far behind the curve

In my work environment in which a very large portion of the company doesn't celebrate Christmas, the change makes excellent business sense.

Who are they doing business on Christmas Day?

My officemate started buying presents for her kids and putting up lights on her house but has no inkling of what the holiday means to Christians. They do it "because everyone else does" and don't feel any real religious attachment to giving their kids video games or putting a inflatable Santa in their yard.

Exactly, without changing the name.

So, really, the whole "Christmas fear" -- are you or anyone you know afraid to wish people "Merry Christmas" for fear of offending someone? Know anyone that is?

Yes, every manager at work, unless they are particularly good friends with the employee.

In the end, no one is really being pressured by the "PC police" to keep their religious ideas away from others -- everyone is just as religiously free, in this country, as they ever were. Nothing the media has reported on in this "war" can change that.

Not true.

deadbeater • Dec 16, 2007 8:02 pm

I for one am celebrating Washington's Ambush on the German Hessians in Trenton, his first real victory in the American Reolution.

piercehawkeye45 • Dec 16, 2007 8:11 pm

This seems like an issue where the extremes on both sides end up ruining Christmas (The Holidays) for everyone when the majority of people could really give a shit. If a company starts selling "Holiday Trees" instead of "Christmas Trees", Christians really need to shut up and deal with it. America will not be solely Christian influenced forever. If people are offended by Christmas lights and decorations on people's houses, non-Christians really need to shut up and deal with it. America has and always will have a strong Christian influence.

Razzmatazz13 • Dec 16, 2007 8:24 pm

At Lowe's we have "Holiday Decorations" but "Christmas Trees" really...it's funny. :)

Oh, and Thanksgiving and Christmas Day are the only two paid holidays where the store is closed in the year.

ZenGum • Dec 16, 2007 8:45 pm

Elspode, where are you?

I say it's time to reclaim the Yule time and take the Christ OUT of the midwinter's feast! ;)
Green trees, holly, mistletoe, red-and-white clad dude climbing down your chimney - these are vestiges of various European pagan ceremonies and celebrations.
Lets put the emphasis back on the winter solstice, have a bit of sun-worship, maybe a few blood sacrifices (I'll use some tofu and a nice red wine sauce) and some good celebratory sex.
Then on the 25th we can just sing Happy Birthday to Jesus and wish the Christians well.

Oh and let me add :) ;) :eyebrow: :tinfoil:
Do not take this post more than 1/4 seriously.

Kitsune • Dec 16, 2007 9:59 pm

xoxoxoBruce;417157 wrote:
Closing for Christmas is hardly endorsing a religious holiday in the USA... ask your officemate.

Okay, so if it isn't endorsing Christmas, then why are people so offended when they don't call it "Christmas"? What's the big deal?

xoxoxoBruce;417157 wrote:
Who are they doing business on Christmas Day?

Customers in need of phone support, billing support, service outages, etc. Business doesn't stop on the 25th.

xoxoxoBruce;417157 wrote:
Yes, every manager at work, unless they are particularly good friends with the employee.

Really? Why?

xoxoxoBruce;417157 wrote:
Not true.

Alright, I'll bite. How has anyone's religious freedom been violated because of The [supposed] War on Christmas?

Kitsune • Dec 16, 2007 10:17 pm

ZenGum;417196 wrote:
Lets put the emphasis back on the winter solstice, have a bit of sun-worship, maybe a few blood sacrifices

As long as we also emphasize the Airing of Grievances and Feats of Strength!

"...for the rest of us!"

xoxoxoBruce • Dec 17, 2007 1:40 am

Kitsune;417217 wrote:
Okay, so if it isn't endorsing Christmas, then why are people so offended when they don't call it "Christmas"? What's the big deal?

Recognizing in not endorsing, and because it is Christmas and not being able to say so in ridiculous.

Customers in need of phone support, billing support, service outages, etc. Business doesn't stop on the 25th.

Oh, ok

Really? Why?

Corporate ethics policy and "The Diversity Initiative". The people hired to administer these programs, are eger to prove the viability and necessity of their jobs. They are the PC Police with a Jesse Jackson zeal to do so. The easiest and best way to nail someone you don't like, is to be able to charge them with saying something politically incorrect. One guy got a general foreman busted for, calling him a sissy, by claiming he was queer and ofended by the term. He wasn't and he wasn't, but it worked.

Alright, I'll bite. How has anyone's religious freedom been violated because of The [supposed] War on Christmas?

It's you that are claiming this is a "War on Christmas", not I. If you read the link, or just the quote, the leaders of these British denominations felt there was enough concern among their flocks, to make a joint statement. I don't know if the concern is justified, but I agree with their statement.

tw • Dec 17, 2007 2:24 am

Happy Halloween. Happy Holidays. What difference does it make which vampire you worship?

Kitsune • Dec 17, 2007 10:18 am

xoxoxoBruce;417250 wrote:
Recognizing in not endorsing, and because it is Christmas and not being able to say so in ridiculous.

Ridiculous as it might seem to some, not calling it "Christmas" still doesn't change anything about the actual holiday for the people that celebrate it. Nothing is devalued, nothing really changes. Is it really that big of a deal?

Broward County, FL, schools give their students days off on many Jewish holidays, although their calendar makes no reference on any day off other than "Administrative Offices/Schools Closed". Its odd, though, as I've never heard of Jewish families complaining on the lack of calendar label.

xoxoxoBruce;417250 wrote:
One guy got a general foreman busted for, calling him a sissy, by claiming he was queer and ofended by the term. He wasn't and he wasn't, but it worked.

That doesn't sound like the most pleasant work environment. I'm assuming you're suggesting that you can be fired for saying "Merry Christmas", then, if someone complains? I'm assuming it hasn't happened, yet, as that would be grounds for a most profitable wrongful termination lawsuit and that action would likely never be taken by the company again.

xoxoxoBruce;417250 wrote:
It's you that are claiming this is a "War on Christmas", not I. If you read the link, or just the quote, the leaders of these British denominations felt there was enough concern among their flocks, to make a joint statement.

I raised the "War on Christmas" issue that was sensationalized by the media because I think that's not only where it was generated, but that's what it is limited to. It's a joke to anyone that doesn't subscribe to it. As for the article and their concerns about the removing of Christ as "the star of the show", I somehow think that it isn't the "PC police" most responsible for this, but perhaps the parents that get whipped into a seasonal consumer frenzy who's children can be found on the night of the 24th locked in concentrated prayer with their hopes that Santa leave them a new Xbox and a Gears of War disc to find come the morning. The people most responsible for the true secularization of Christmas are Christians. Government non-recognition and generalized greetings don't hold a candle to that.

ZenGum • Dec 17, 2007 11:18 am

Since this thread is about Britain, I was hoping Dana would pop in, but I guess she's too busy.

So in her absence I will mention that I recall her saying that a lot of the "antiChristmas" attitude was a myth generated by far right groups attempting to demonize minorities. I don't know how far things have really gone.

And I think Kitsune hits the nail, not quite on the head, but on the shoulder:

The people most responsible for the true secularization of Christmas are Christians.

I'd blame consumers, marketers, advertisers, and weak-willed parents who'd rather give their children some toys than some time.
Ok, these people may well be Christians, but their Christianity is only incidental in relation to this issue.

slang • Dec 17, 2007 2:23 pm

Kitsune;417295 wrote:
Ridiculous as it might seem to some, not calling it "Christmas" still doesn't change anything about the actual holiday for the people that celebrate it. Nothing is devalued, nothing really changes. Is it really that big of a deal?

Replace the word "Christmas" with "Martin Luther King Day" in the sentence above.

[sarcasm]No, no big deal.[/sarcasm]

slang • Dec 17, 2007 2:41 pm

Kitsune;417295 wrote:
That doesn't sound like the most pleasant work environment. I'm assuming you're suggesting that you can be fired for saying "Merry Christmas", then, if someone complains? I'm assuming it hasn't happened, yet, as that would be grounds for a most profitable wrongful termination lawsuit and that action would likely never be taken by the company again.

First, one of these overly sensitive troublemakers makes a complaint. It's not going to be for someone saying Merry Christmas but it's the same type of person making the majority of these types of accusations and complaints. You know, those that think the US flag is a symbol of war and that it has no place in the work environment, someone that sees a bible on someone's desk that they may read over lunch.

It's actually not the "Merry Christmas", you are correct. It just starts the ball rolling for the HR person. The HR guy stops by your cube or does a drive by. Then he might stop to talk to you casually.

It gets the ball rolling for a host of other complete bullshit non-offenses.

.

slang • Dec 17, 2007 3:03 pm

xoxoxoBruce;417250 wrote:
Corporate ethics policy and "The Diversity Initiative". The people hired to administer these programs, are eger to prove the viability and necessity of their jobs. They are the PC Police with a Jesse Jackson zeal to do so. The easiest and best way to nail someone you don't like, is to be able to charge them with saying something politically incorrect. One guy got a general foreman busted for, calling him a sissy, by claiming he was queer and ofended by the term. He wasn't and he wasn't, but it worked.

That's exactly correct. It's not that one incident may be considered cause for dismissal. It's when a minority complainer keeps complaining and searching for more ammo, and complaining and then going to see the HR people, and complaining to everyone, and going back to the HR people.

This is something that some of my minority work friends swear by. They use it as a sword.

Why? Because it works in this fucked up PC world that we have now.

slang • Dec 17, 2007 3:28 pm

Kitsune;417147 wrote:
I'm fairly certain the idea is made up to scare all the people that, for some reason, feel the need to have their most sacred beliefs validated by the wording on department store advertisement fliers.

If that were accurate, it would be truly funny. :D

It's a tradition that is evaporating because of a handful of people that are consistently and loudly complaining about how it.

I'm not even a church goer but I see these little changes in wording and such that are an attempt to change the traditional holiday.

Spexxvet • Dec 17, 2007 3:37 pm

slang;417348 wrote:
That's exactly correct. It's not that one incident may be considered cause for dismissal. It's when a minority complainer keeps complaining and searching for more ammo, and complaining and then going to see the HR people, and complaining to everyone, and going back to the HR people.

This is something that some of my minority work friends swear by. They use it as a sword.

Why? Because it works in this fucked up PC world that we have now.

Yeah. In the good old days, it used to be that Chrisians could just refuse to hire a non-Christian (and whites refuse to hire non-whites), and avoid the whole situation.

Happy Holidays!

slang • Dec 17, 2007 3:40 pm

Kitsune;417217 wrote:
Alright, I'll bite. How has anyone's religious freedom been violated because of The [supposed] War on Christmas?

Religious freedom? :D

No, I don't feel my religious freedom has been violated. Some feel as though theirs have been by calling this holiday Christmas though. From my experience these people are militant anti-Christians, they don't like Christmas, the word "God" on the money, the pledge, yadda-yadda-yadda.

There are some people that are very annoyed by anthing remotely Christian. That's fine. I can accept that. Why do we need to change the name of the holiday though?

I'm sure it makes perfect sense but not to me. Someone's civil rights are surely being violated by having to endure the horror of this society having Christmas instead of Winter Break.

slang • Dec 17, 2007 3:41 pm

Spexxvet;417354 wrote:
Happy Holidays!

Have a Merry Christmas my friend. :)

slang • Dec 17, 2007 3:50 pm

slang;417348 wrote:
Why? Because it works in this fucked up PC world that we have now.

I've also had some candid converstations with [newly second biggest minority] friends about how the [newly largest minority] citizens are "untouchable" under the PC rules of today.

slang: Welcome home brother! Now you understand the falacy of PC.

friend: Was it like that for you with [newly second biggest minority]s in the past?

slang: Oh please!

Kitsune • Dec 17, 2007 3:52 pm

slang;417337 wrote:
Replace the word "Christmas" with "Martin Luther King Day" in the sentence above.

You mean Civil Rights Day? (only in New Hampshire) ;)

slang • Dec 17, 2007 3:54 pm

Quick, someone post what a bigot and racist I am.

That's always the shortcut to silence these types of comments. :)

slang • Dec 17, 2007 3:58 pm

Kitsune;417365 wrote:
You mean Civil Rights Day? (only in New Hampshire) ;)

No, I mean MLK day.

slang • Dec 17, 2007 4:05 pm

It's MLK Jr day. My mistake.

Kitsune • Dec 17, 2007 4:10 pm

slang;417355 wrote:
There are some people that are very annoyed by anthing remotely Christian. That's fine. I can accept that. Why do we need to change the name of the holiday though?

I think the important question, with regard to schools, is are they really changing "Christmas Break" to "Winter Break" because they fear people being offended by, uh, the word "Christmas"? They seem to have pissed off a lot more people by changing it than they would have had they left it alone. At most, I figure they might be leaving off the religious holiday label so as not to obviously appear to give preferential treatment to any one group of people, which I feel they don't.

...and are they really changing it? I don't ever remember it being called anything other than "winter break", even all the way back to elementary school since the weeks off spanned well before Christmas all the way to several days past New Year's.

slang • Dec 17, 2007 4:10 pm

Spexxvet;417354 wrote:
Yeah. In the good old days, it used to be that Chrisians could just refuse to hire a non-Christian (and whites refuse to hire non-whites), and avoid the whole situation.

I understand that but I was not a part of that oppression. That makes me a victim of over reaching correction.

Who can I sue? ;)

glatt • Dec 17, 2007 4:21 pm

slang;417374 wrote:
I understand that but I was not a part of that oppression. That makes me a victim of over reaching correction.

Who can I sue? ;)

Can you sell your victim credits to a racist pig?

slang • Dec 17, 2007 4:24 pm

You sir, are a genius.

Why I didnt think of that, I don't have any idea. :smack:

piercehawkeye45 • Dec 17, 2007 7:53 pm

War on Christmas?

War on Chanukah?

The altercation erupted when Adler and his friends said "Happy Chanukah" to a group yelling "Merry Christmas" on the Brooklyn-bound train.

The 20-year-old Askari said he tried to fight off the 10 attackers, giving Adler a chance to summon police by pulling an emergency brake

http://www.startribune.com/nation/12411086.html

monster • Dec 17, 2007 8:19 pm

Razzmatazz13;417190 wrote:
At Lowe's we have "Holiday Decorations" but "Christmas Trees" really...it's funny. :)

Especially since decorating a tree for a winter celebration predates christanity :rolleyes:

I call it a christmas tree so people know what the hell I'm talking about. but it's no more to do with the birth of ickle baby jesus to me than the lights I put on my hous are. And I call those fairy lights like all good Brits. And I put a "fairy" on top of my tree, like most Brits.

They're just words. Anyone offended by them needs to get a life.

But that said, Winterval was good because it wasn't just about Christmas. When I lived in Birmingham (UK) it started in time to cover Eid, Diwali, Winter Solstice and Channuka too and it really did bring people together (nobody has heard of Kwanzaa there) Pretty much all of those holidays involve light in some way shape or form. And who doesn't need light in the middle of winter? If it had just been called Christmas, or Diwali, I doubt it would have offended many (except those who make taking offence a hobby), but those who don't celebrate that particular holiday might not have realized there would be anything going on for them to enjoy, or might have thought their joining the fun would be frowned upon by their religion.

Kingswood • Dec 17, 2007 9:07 pm

In Oz Christmas Day is traditionally the first day of the summer holidays. The exact occasions for the dates don't matter greatly when one closes the doors on December 24th and the business doesn't reopen until some time between January 2nd and the first week of February.

By the end of the week school will be out for the summer in all states.

I work to the end of the month (we don't close except for holidays) but have most of January off work for my summer break. Only ten days to go! Can't wait.

tw • Dec 17, 2007 10:11 pm

Isn't Merry Christmas the politically correct version of 'Oh Christ' or 'God damn'? Also perfectly normal greetings. Since we already use those expression all year, well, now they want to further 'save' the English language? Amazing that 'Happy Holidays' is profanity. When will it stop? When religious extremists also control the presidency?

Happy Holidays - and Oh Christ to those who are offended.

Kitsune • Dec 17, 2007 10:51 pm

According to Haynes, though, there is no war on Christmas. "I certainly wouldn't put it that way," he says. "The big picture is that there's more religion now in public schools than ever in modern history. There's no question about that. But it's not there in terms of the government imposing religion or sponsoring it, and that bothers some people on the right. They miss the good old days when public schools were semi-established Protestant schools."

...

The reason fights over Christmas iconography recur, says Haynes, is that "there are still some school administrators who are so afraid to deal with religion that they go too far in keeping it out, and it only takes a few bad stories in this era of the Internet for many conservative religious people across the country to think that public schools are hostile to their faith."

slang • Dec 18, 2007 12:18 am

tw;417481 wrote:
Isn't Merry Christmas the politically correct version of 'Oh Christ' or 'God damn'? Also perfectly normal greetings.

Do you really believe that God damn is a greeting? :lol:

I can God damn with the best of them but I don't ever remember greeting someone with it.

That might not be a bad idea at times but Jesus Christ, that's funny, a greeting? :rotflol:

I don't agree with much you say TW but you are surely great at articulating your points and are one of the funniest people here on the cellar.

slang • Dec 18, 2007 12:24 am

Kitsune;417373 wrote:
...and are they really changing it? I don't ever remember it being called anything other than "winter break", even all the way back to elementary school since the weeks off spanned well before Christmas all the way to several days past New Year's.

In the 70s it was called Christmas vacation in rural Pa. We didn't have all that many days off before or after new year's day though.

tw • Dec 18, 2007 1:01 am

slang;417513 wrote:
Do you really believe that God damn is a greeting?

Well, god damn. How are you Slang?

Or when I hit my finger with the hammer and want to talk about it, then the first thing I say loudly is, "Jesus Christ! Anybody have a band aid?" First I get everyone's attention with a greeting. Then I ask a question.

And a Happy Kwanzaa to you too.

Where are those religious police? I just cannot get myself arrested no matter what I say?

slang • Dec 18, 2007 1:42 am

tw;417522 wrote:
First I get everyone's attention with a greeting.

Greet:

1. to address with some form of salutation; welcome.
2. to meet or receive: to be greeted by cheering crowds; to greet a proposal with boos and hisses.
3. to manifest itself to: Music greeted his ear as he entered the salon.
–verb (used without object)
4. Obsolete. to give salutations on meeting.

If you say so, TW. Your post is still funny. You should be proud of being funny once in a while.

God • Dec 18, 2007 1:47 am

tw;417522 wrote:
Where are those religious police?

I have a strange feeling Satan is just around the corner.

(Satan, this is your cue)

juju • Dec 18, 2007 1:50 am

Oh my god. In the three years since I've been gone, tw has learned how to write short posts! I like this change.

Satan • Dec 18, 2007 1:57 am

God;417528 wrote:
I have a strange feeling Satan is just around the corner.

(Satan, this is your cue)

eh, and i was just about to go to bed. we do sleep down here you know.

i don't understand what is so special about christmas anyways. i can almost guarantee that my son won't get a holiday for his birthday. talk about fairness, jeez. first you...eh...fuck it, i'm going to bed.

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