Arnold

I was flicking through a few of the quotes under the tip jar tonight and came across this one. It struck me as being entirely false (which shouldn't surprise me considering he's a politician and an actor) from the point of view of the statements he makes in the sections I have bolded (emboldened?) What do you think? True or false?

After one week [visiting Austria] I couldn't wait to go back to the United States. Everything was much more pleasant in the United States, because of the mentality of being open-minded, always positive. Everything you want to do in Europe is just, 'No way. No one has ever done it.' They haven't any more the desire to go out to conquer and achieve -- I realized that I had much more the American spirit.
--Arnold Schwarzenegger

Are Americans more open minded and courageous than Europeans?

"Europeans" is a gross generalization!

Even within specific countries there disparities. While I found this to be true of the French civilian population, I did not find it to be the case with their military which seemed to resent the rest of their citizenry for it.

Of course it's a generalization, that's the point. I don't think anyone on this forum is so dimwitted to actually believe that EVERY european is the same, and EVERY american is the same. The question implies the mindset on the whole. And there ARE noted cultural differences between the US and the whole of Europe.

I think americans are far more competitive, europeans are far more open minded, and neither is "braver" than the other. Of course there are two different kinds of bravery, the physical and the kind of moral bravery to stand for what's right, regardless of your peers. I don't think either group has succesfully mastered that type of bravery.

Well, Arnold has done quite well for himself in the U.S. Of course he loves it here.

I'm not very familiar with Austria, but could he have become a high-ranking elected official there, starting out as as a bodybuilder and action film actor?

The US was populated by people who chose to leave for a life they knew was more dangerous, definitely less controlled and less predictable, which just might get them what they wanted - sometimes great wealth, but mostly freedom to pursue the life they wanted.

After a few generations, their spawn continued to want even more danger and freedom, and they moved west across the country. When there wasn't any land left to move west, they found themselves in California.

And then they started being pioneers in other ways. They built things, they started companies and started building things and inventing things. And all along fresh immigrants came with the same spirit, and if they're really full of piss and vinegar they move to California, where the best, brightest and most beautiful compete for tiny spaces of land because they want to be amongst other best, brightest and most beautiful.

And the people still go - at one point I looked up and realized that most of my friends wound up there. They all said, in their 20s, if I don't go to California now, I may regret it for the rest of my life.

My own life has so far been one of seeking to live my own lifestyle, defined by me, in defiance of what people want or expect me to do. Instead of moving west I tried to build a business where I landed, and wound up in some degree of financial ruin. But I had to do it, although I wouldn't do it again, because I felt the streak in me.

The US is now about 15 generations old and in some places the streak of fierce individualism slowly dies. But what Arnold saw is in us, I believe it is a real thing. Sometimes we can't see it because we're in it. But it is there. How could it not be?

From where I live, from what I've seen, from where I've been, I'm gonna say, I don't agree with ahnuld.

Instead, I feel that for the most part, euroameriaustraiicapea... er, europe and america (and austrailia, which is prettymuch europe to us yanks) have that innovative, open-minded achieving advancing society, wheras asian societies do not.

Obviously being american growing up in asia I'm gonna see most things in terms of the west vs the east, but I think that the difference in drive and spirit between america and europe is negligible compared to the difference between the west and asia.

I have actually had japanese friends of mine quote at me, 'the tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut' or some paraphrasing of that sentiment. I have actually had korean friends of mine tell me not to do things so I won't stand out so much (i guess those koreans don't have as deeply developed metaphors as the japanese do). I sense no drive, no spirit, no revolutionary or independent or out-of-the-box mindset among most of my asian peers at my school. There is an intense drive to succeed - much more than in the west, in fact - but success becomes, to them, getting a 4.+ GPA and going to become a doctor [COLOR="DimGray"]or lawyer[/COLOR] [COLOR="Gray"]or business executive[/COLOR], [COLOR="Silver"]and theyre all made out of ticky-tacky and they all look just th-[/COLOR]what now? oh, right.. success becomes just fitting in and doing your job and doing your work and doing your part and not sticking your head up lest you hit it on something. That's why I'm having trouble starting this paper, even after getting the administration to green-light the project. There's no spirit for it here. And the same spirit drives any kind of change, be it social change or political change or scientific change or economic change or... any kind.

It's not US-vs.-Europe, it's west-vs.-east. It really is.

A reply in several parts:

Ibram;402010 wrote:

From where I live, from what I've seen, from where I've been, I'm gonna say, I don't agree with ahnuld.

Instead, I feel that for the most part, euroameriaustraiicapea... er, europe and america (and austrailia, which is prettymuch europe to us yanks)

:lol: Only to those yanks who have heard of Australia. And this might explain Dubya's little slip at the recent "OPEC" (APEC) meeting in "Austria".

Ibram;402010 wrote:

have that innovative, open-minded achieving advancing society, wheras asian societies do not.

[picks jaw up off ground] ... WTF? ... doesn't this guy live in Taiwan? I read on ...

Ibram;402010 wrote:

Obviously being american growing up in asia I'm gonna see most things in terms of the west vs the east, but I think that the difference in drive and spirit between america and europe is negligible compared to the difference between the west and asia.

Ok I am breathing again. This much I agree with.

Ibram;402010 wrote:

I have actually had japanese friends of mine quote at me, 'the tallest blade of grass is the first to be cut' or some paraphrasing of that sentiment. I have actually had korean friends of mine tell me not to do things so I won't stand out so much (i guess those koreans don't have as deeply developed metaphors as the japanese do).

The Japanese also say, it it the nail which sticks up that gets hammered down. Note also the Australian expression, the Tall Poppy Syndrome. We don't like folks who start to think they are better than everyone else.

Ibram;402010 wrote:

I sense no drive, no spirit, no revolutionary or independent or out-of-the-box mindset among most of my asian peers at my school. There is an intense drive to succeed - much more than in the west, in fact - but success becomes, to them, getting a 4.+ GPA and going to become a doctor [COLOR="DimGray"]or lawyer[/COLOR] [COLOR="Gray"]or business executive[/COLOR], [COLOR="Silver"]and theyre all made out of ticky-tacky and they all look just th-[/COLOR]what now? oh, right.. success becomes just fitting in and doing your job and doing your work and doing your part and not sticking your head up lest you hit it on something. That's why I'm having trouble starting this paper, even after getting the administration to green-light the project.
There's no spirit for it here. And the same spirit drives any kind of change, be it social change or political change or scientific change or economic change or... any kind.

It's not US-vs.-Europe, it's west-vs.-east. It really is.

There is far more drive as you acknowledge, but you claim it is purely a drive to socially defined success, not a drive to change society, and amongst your colleagues I can well believe this.
However, if you want to talk about "Asians" in general, you may want to think a little more widely than your pals at school in Taiwan in 2007.
A few quick examples: China has turned itself inside out at least twice in the last hundred odd years, and is doing so again, and has for most of history been far ahead of the west in technology. Japan went from medieval isolation in 1850 to modern assimilation by 1900. Indonesia and the Philippines have thrown out entrenched dictators. South Koreans are IMHO by far the best rioters on the planet, and practice frequently. Thailand has as many coups as elections. (Sorry, are your eyes bleeding yet? I desist). Conclusion: these societies often are "innovative, open-minded achieving [and] advancing".

But I will respond on your behalf: Asian societies will generally do these things as a group. It is much rarer to find the individual, lose-cannon, maverick types.

Here, I think, is the core of the difference you are seeing: Asian culture is much more group oriented. Asian people are much more concerned with being part of a group and putting the group's needs ahead of their own. Westerners, and especially Americans, are much more concerned with their status as individuals.
I guess this is because of the degree to which various cultures have adjusted to having high populations in small areas, where community and co-operation are essential. Westerners, and especially Americans, have space to be alone, and are still in the cultural shadow of the pioneer days.
Thus when it comes to civil rights, things work out differently. Western culture puts more emphasis on the rights of the individual, whereas Asian culture puts more emphasis on the rights of the group. As a result, Asians are much more reluctant to rock the boat, to cause disharmony. Press freedom is limited in Malaysia, the reason (given) is that with a wide ethnic mix and a history of trouble, hate speech could cause severe problems. Better to limit the free speech than start a pogrom.
Japan runs largely on the "Wa" or harmony principle: (roughly) even if you don't think like your neighbours, think of your neighbours. They even have words "honne" and "tatemae" meaning, roughly, "what you really think" and "what you tell people you think" respectively. Getting Japanese people to give their opinions on contentious issues in language classes, or even to admit there are issues to talk about, is like pulling teeth from an alligator. Don't rock the boat!
So ... good luck with the paper ... but don't expect a huge amount of controversial contributions.
Change can come: scientific, economic, socio-political. But the latter will only come when most people in the group are ready for it. Until then, you won't find many agitators or public dissidents.

Is Arnold suggesting he's an ornery John Wayne motherfucker?

I think Arnold's statements are true as he sees them. Not sure "open-minded" is quite accurate; I would say more open to innovation and individualistic spirit.

Don't see the word "courage" in there, so not sure where you are coming from on that.

Don't see the word "courage" in there, so not sure where you are coming from on that.

Just trying to capture the essence of the statement without retyping the whole thing. I'd say it takes a great deal of courage to go out and conquer and achieve etc.