English only
I was watching CNN last night, and they were having a segment about places trying to get "English only" laws passed; i.e., only English in official government docs, taught in schools, etc.
HEATED arguments ensued between opposing viewpoints. What do you think of this?
I will give you my opinion, and remember, I'm an Anglo living in an area with an 80% Hispanic population.
--first, I really don't think that "English only" is a good, practical, or beneficial idea. It's not a requirement that citizens speak English, and second and third generations always lose most of their old language anyway.
--second, and this is really the kicker-- I don't care how many times they deny it, to me the "English First" stuff is nothing but thinly disguised bigotry and hatred, and I won't have anything to do with that.
I am so tired of institutionalized fear, bigotry, and hatred.
I know this issue is related to the illegal immigration problem, too, but not exclusively. Plenty of legal aliens and citizens in my town speak only Spanish.
ETA: Here's the CNN page covering this stuff:
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2007/hispanic.heritage/Going to an "English only" society will only cause problems and heat up racial tensions. America will never become a Spanish speaking country, never.
Sounds like a waste of time, money, and effort. not to mention reactionary, and fear motivated. I'm all for it.
Habla Espanol, cloud?
I'm not offended by having to push the "English" option at the ATM, but I am offended by the amount of money wasted on printing govt. forms in numerous languages.
And I wouldn't want to see ESL programs go away - but immersion works. Graduating kids who can only speak Spanish handicaps them - they become future landscapers instead of future whatever they want to be's.
I kinda agree with you there, Jinx, about the expense for printing extra languages. I wish it wasn't necessary.
Yes, LJ, I speak decent Spanish. In fact, I should speak better Spanish than I do. I've studied it all my life. My accent is perfect, but I still don't consider myself fluent.
What's wrong with the US having a couple of languages? Why not three or four? What's the BFD? Will what's left of our democracy completely collapse if someone dare to communicate in a "foreign" tongue? Where I live, I am treated to two Navajo language radio stations which broadcast over hundreds of miles. Is this an insult to the English language? Maybe since the Navajo were here first - the "REAL" Americans, we should have Navajo Only campaigns. I also have Spanish speaking friends who trace their families back to the days when this part of the US was still a part of Mexico. The conquerers always impose their language on the conquered, right?
Then I have a neighbor who thinks New Mexico is still Mexico, and everyone from New Mexico is in this state illegally. JEEZ! Will this stupidity never end? :headshake
I think we should all speak German.
i don't support english only legislation because i think it will only create more bureacracy. that being said, i absolutely hate seeing ads for government agency jobs that require foreign language fluency.
if i moved to mexico, legally or not, and i had to go to a government office i wouldn't expect them to be fluent in english. if they are, great, but if they aren't it isn't their fault that i didn't bother to learn the dominant language in the area i chose to move to.
I think we should all speak German.
I agree wholeheartedly!!!
english only is fucking retarded, english mandatory...not a bad idea.
I think we should all speak German.
Seems as I recall hearing that we almost did.
I've been behind the idea of legislating English as our National Language since I was in elementary school. That was a good bit of a while ago. I have chosen to become proficient in a language other than English, but I wouldn't require that any business be conducted in the language of my forebears. I am an American, not a hyphenated one.
We don't need to rebuild the tower of Babel.
Going to an "English only" society will only cause problems and heat up racial tensions.
Seems like we have those already.
America will never become a Spanish speaking country, never.
I hope that you are right, but we seem to be heading more and more in that direction.
My opinions on this debate have changed radically over the last two years. I grew up in an area with an 98% white english-only speaking population. Where I live, if you don't know english, you can't survive. Going to get groceries would be difficult for you. So, basing off of my expieriences back then, I would've been all for english-only...because it's more beneficial to the speakers of other languages.
Now, I've opened my head a little, something I'm pretty proud of myself for being able to do...and I know that there are places where you don't HAVE to speak english to live. Communities that will support other languages, I think that's really cool.
Admittedly a big part of my mind change comes from my bf. His parents moved here from mexico, he was born here but raised to speak spanish until he went into school (because his parents have a very hard time speaking english.) However, they knew that he would need to learn english in order to be sucessful and move out of the area that they live...so they pushed the schools to put him in regular english classes as a kid instead of ESL. He's perfectly fluent in both now...but I feel like I should be a bit more fluent in spanish before meeting his mom :rolleyes:
I think we should all speak German.
There's more than a bit of German (from the Saxons):
"English is the result of Norman men-at-arms attempting to pick up Saxon barmaids and is no more legitimate than any of the other results."
- H. Beam Piper
I hope that you are right, but we seem to be heading more and more in that direction.
If we enact a "single language" law, then that language can change with the demographics.
Seems like we have those already.
And English only wouldn't make it a lot worse?
How is people not being able to communicate with each other going to reduce racial tensions?
Good question bruce. I understand that people may feel printing official literature in multiple languages is an unnecessary expense...but surely that's te lesser of two evils, with the other evil being a whole slew of people living in the US but unable to access most of the services/systems.
English is the language of business thoughout the world.
French is the language of diplomacy.
Anyone hoping to engage in trade with another country must be able to speak English, and if they want to avoid an arse kicking, they must be able to speak French. :)
English does originate from German, so I guess we are all speaking modified German anyway.
Asking people to forget their first language is asking people to forget their culture. That is wrong.
Asking people to learn a new language to make going to the doctor and getting a correct diagnosis is advisable. That is right.
OK, but apart from individuals dealing with government bureaucracy, how about when you can't talk to your neighbor?
Hey, your dog has been shitting on my lawn.
No Habla Ingles?
Why you dumb fucking wetback, keep your dog off my lawn or I'll shoot the son of a bitch.
No Habla Ingles?
BLAM!
I guess that would be annoying.
You should try attempting to organize a delivery of a watertank to someone who doesn't speak english. It gets done though, because if you live in a culture where other languages are spoken, virtually everyone learns enough to understand what is being said to them, even if it's not in a literal sense.
I'm pretty sure if you stand there with an angry look on your face pointing from the dog to the shit the person will get the idea and I don't know about your part of the world, but over here, 90% of the time the person would rectify the situation.
Of course, there are arseholes everywhere. Some of them even speak English.
Of course, there are arseholes everywhere. Some of them even speak English.
Cock.
Cock.
v.
intr. [LIST=1]
[*]To set the hammer of a firearm in a position ready for firing.
[*]To turn or stick up.
[*]To strut; swagger.[/LIST]
[Middle English cok, from Old English cocc, probably from Late Latin coccus, from coco,
a cackling,
of imitative origin.]
or
cock (n1.)
O.E. cocc, O.Fr. coq, O.N. kokkr, all of echoic origin. O.E. cocc was a nickname for "one who strutted like a cock," thus a common term in the Middle Ages for a pert boy, used of scullions, apprentices, servants, etc. A common personal name till c.1500, it was affixed to Christian names as a pet diminutive, cf. Wilcox, Hitchcock, etc. Slang sense of "penis" is attested since 1618 (but cf. pillicock "penis," from c.1300). Cock-teaser is from 1891. Cock-sucker is used curiously for aggressively obnoxious men; the ancients would have understood the difference between passive and active roles; Catullus, writing of his boss, employs the useful L. insult irrumator, which means "someone who forces others to give him oral sex," hence "one who treats people with contempt." Cocky "arrogantly pert" (1768) originally meant "lecherous" (16c.); modern sense of "vain" is 18c. A cocker spaniel (1823) was trained to start woodcocks. Cock-and-bull is first recorded 1621, perhaps an allusion to Aesop's fables, with their incredible talking animals, or to a particular story, now forgotten. Fr. has parallel expression coq-à-l'âne.
?
Don't strain your brain, Aliantha will understand.
Well to be honest, I was wondering if you were refering to me or someone else. Either way, it doesn't really matter.
The definition was entertaining though. Thanks HLJ.
I was mostly pointing out, not the definition, but the series of languages through which any word tends to evolve. The word actually had 15 definitions, of which I listed only two.
I think they need to pick one or the other -English only or Bilingual, and which ever it is, provide a universally decent education program to teach the missing language from an early age. In this day and age, there is no way you gan get the full benefits of life in America without understanding English. The Cellar is (allegedly) in English. I rest my case on that one.
That said, what harm would it do to have everyone learn Spanish, too?
I am appalled that it's still a new and "innovative" program to introduce foreign languages in elementary school. it's not much different in the UK, but in the rest of Europe, languages are introduceed very early on and most continental Europeans are multilingual. The earlier you start, ther easier it is and the more languages you know the easier it is to pick up new ones -including priogramming languages.
Did someone say you don't need to speak English to be an immigrant? An illegal one maybe. We had to have lawyers petition for us to avoid having to take an English test whe we emmigrated -and that was pre 9-11. (Yes, we're English). We did have to take and English test to get our driver's licences.
You do have to speak English to a reasonable degree to become a naturalized citizen - at least, you had to in 2002. Don't know if that requirement has been eliminated since then.
To me, how languages change and 'take' from other languages is irrelevant to the issue. I think that one common language is important for a country. As someone has mentioned, language is a part of culture. If people don't need to learn or use the language of their new country, they will not participate in its culture. They will not view themselves as an integral part of that country, and will cling to the language and culture of the 'old country'. The result is balkanization of the population and a collection of ethnic groups all vying for more power to support their 'old country' culture and language.
Not to mention the near impossibility of providing essential services to everyone, when there is no common language. For example, Toronto is attempting to provide 911 services for over 900 languages in the city - and not succeeding. A Chinese family sued the city because their grandmother, who only speaks Mandarin, could not make herself understood on a 911 call.
My husband saw many, many people in the ER in Ontario who had lived in Canada for decades but spoke no English. Medical care is terribly hampered when there's no reliable history to be had. Interpreters are a help, but they paraphrase and misinterpret and are only useful for the most basic information.
As for costs, the cost of bilingualism in Canada has been and continues to be enormous. There are duplicated public school systems to permit French Immersion and French (origin) education. Every traffic sign has to be bilingual. Every government service and document must be available in two languages. Plus the minority language population tends to be favored for government jobs; a huge number of English speakers in Ottawa were eliminated from their jobs (or side-tracked into lateral transfers somewhere in the north) to make room for francophones when the policy came in.
I believe that people who immigrate to a new country have an obligation to learn the language of the country.
I give the English-only cranks the cold shoulder. Besides English, I have Spanish, French, and Russian, though I cannot claim bilinguality in any of these, reckoning they should approach the level of my English, which they definitely don't.
I think it is a great idea. No other nation cow tows like this.
I live in an area with many nationalities and have lived in areas with FAR more, like central LA.
Funny how the only group that feels the need to be treated special in this way is...
Bullshit.
If I move to a Spanish speaking nation and DEMANDED this kind of treatment, language wise, I know how I would be treated. I have asked.
I think it is a great idea. No other nation cow tows like this.
In the UK official literature and signs in council buildings are in multiple languages.
Canada is 100% bilingual and 90% proud of it.
Canada is 100% bilingual and 90% proud of it.
So if I go to an English speaking area of Canada and tell them that they must deal with me in Spanish they will?
No, but if you tell them that they must deal with you in French, they will.
Anywhere in that nation? Really, I was unaware, shame.
I did not know all Canadians were bilingual.
I actually thought it was only in the eastern provinces, like Quebec.
I think Switzerland has four languages and they seem to not be torn apart.
There is still resistance... to French in the Western provinces, and to English in Quebec. But basically every Canuck child is publically educated to be bilingual. It seems to work OK.. they are generally patriotic about it, any Canucks currently on board?
Seriously, if you go anywhere in Europe, you'll find most people speak at least two languages, sometimes more.
People in western, EFL cultures are really just a bit colonial in their outlook to other languages.
I really don't see why there is such a problem embracing new/alternative languages.
but the Founding Fathers meant us to be pure!
[sarcasm]
ahuh...well, I'd say the US is just as much a mongrel dog as anywhere else in the western world.
I guess you've all let your daddies down. :(
I live right on the boundary of the Navajo Nation or the Rez as some folks call it. There are oodles of people speaking Navajo around here, and everyone seems to survive the experience. I disagree with Bruce's scenario of the Spanish speaking dog doing its number on an English speaking yard. Being polite can work wonders with the language barrier. For example, I was in the local Walmart this morning, and got distracted trying to figure out what steering fluid I needed to buy for my car. There I was, lost in rapt contemplation of the automotive products, inadvertantly blocking the aisle with my cart. An ancient Navajo lady brought me back to the world when she gently tapped my cart, and said, "You move, please," followed by something in Navajo. I quickly moved aside for her and apologized in English. She nodded, smiled, and I don't beleive they're planning on any war councils in Shiprock tonight.
Live and let live. There's lots worse things than having part of our population speak Spanish. Its a beautiful language, and I love the poetry of Pablo Naruda in the original Spanish. I think if the US went bi-lingual it would add more to our culture than detract from it.
Most areas of the UK are at the very least bi-lingual in terms of communication between the system and citizens. The signs are usually done with two or three translations, government forms are available usually in at least 5 or 6 languages, someone being interviewed by a local government office can request interpreters for several languages.
As far as I can tell it makes precious little difference to my life. I go to the Council tax office and wait in line to speak to an assistant, does it really matter that the sign on the wall, warning against aggressive behaviour to staff, has the same warning written in four languages, one after another? Does it really matter that when I grab a form off the counter there's a pile of forms in Urdu next to the pile of english forms? Or that on the back of the form I've picked up is an address I could write to to acquire that same form in one of 6 different languages, or braille?
We have several settled immigrant communities and their children are usually bi-lingual by the time they start school. BY the time they leave they will usually have done at least a few years in French and possibly another language on top. We're not great on languages compared to most euro nations. The indigenous population are far less likely to be bi-lingual than the immigrant population.
In these modern times of the internet and computers, there's really no argument for having to print extra forms in different languages anyway. If the forms are stored on a hard drive, you simply print out the language that suits you and ignore the rest.
I suspect that's why some of the less common languages are available on request, rather than as standard. Usually the two or three languages that are prevalent in an area are the ones you'll routinely find in public offices. Also, you have to take into account, thata lot of official forms have to be printed, they can't be run off as a download.
In Wales of course, all signs are in English and Welsh.
Another benefit to being bi-lingual: it doubles your chance for a date on Saturday night.
Yeah....ready for a bit of the old Lingua Franca...woof!
Usually the two or three languages that are prevalent in an area are the ones you'll routinely find in public offices.
California, on one hand, agreed to allow the publication of state documents in other languages to represent minority groups and immigrant communities. Languages, such as Spanish, Chinese, Korean, Tagalog (Filipino/Pilipino), Persian, Russian, Vietnamese and Thai appear in official state documents, and the Department of Motor Vehicles publishes in [COLOR=Red]47[/COLOR] languages.
In 2000, the census bureau printed the standard census questionnaires in six languages: English, Spanish, Korean, Chinese (in traditional characters), Vietnamese, and Tagalog. The English-only movement seeks to establish English as the only official language of the entire nation.
On May 19, 2006, the United States Senate voted to make English the national language of the United States. According to the bill, written by Sen. James M. Inhofe (R-Okla.), the federal government will no longer provide multilingual communications and services, except for those already guaranteed by law. Shortly after the approval of the Inhofe amendment, the Senate voted for another bill by Sen. Ken Salazar (D-Colo.), according to which English is the "common unifying language of the United States", but mandated that nothing in that declaration "shall diminish or expand any existing rights" regarding multilingual services. Neither of the bills were signed into law.
Which mulit-language services are "already protected by law", which ones aren't included in that, that the govt. will no longer be providing? If it doesn't change (diminish or expand) anything, what's the point? What does "English Only" or "English First" mean?
:confused:
There is still resistance... to French in the Western provinces, and to English in Quebec. But basically every Canuck child is publically educated to be bilingual. It seems to work OK.. they are generally patriotic about it, any Canucks currently on board?
Raises hand sheepishly ... well, dual citizen. Bilingualism in Canada is established but not equally distributed. Children in the English public school system have mandatory classes in French through 9th grade; they can continue beyond that if they wish. Children in the French public system take English, but I'm not sure for how long. In Quebec the rules are different and English is not used.
There is resistance to enforced bilingual policy in areas of Canada where there are few to no French communities, especially in view of Quebec's language laws - they stipulate no English in government, on any public signs, on any business signs, and in the schools. However, bilingualism is the law and one effect has been to encourage francophones to move to new areas (great paying government jobs) and establish a new need for French services.
The anglophones (English or non-French Canadians) in these areas aren't thrilled at seeing their jobs disappear and their taxes go up. Their schools decline in quality because school taxes are split between English public, French Immersion, and French Language public schools. In Ontario there's a further division with English Catholic and French Catholic schools getting public funding as well. The English public system draws about 10% of funding (I was told this by a school administrator). The schools are in terrible shape - asbestos hanging out of ceilings, no mirrors, soap, or paper towels in washrooms, no janitorial staff, no repairs, no air conditioning, filth everywhere, no lunchrooms (kids eat at their desks in classrooms). There was a series of articles in the Toronto press on the problem in 2004-2005.
So some Canucks are less patriotic about this than others. It depends on whether you get the new jobs and schools or whether you get the other end of the stick.
The Canadian situation does not sound like a very happy one. Its as if Canada has gone to the opposite extreme with what amounts to a "French Only" policy in certain provinces. I don't agree with that either. Here in the US in areas where there are a high percentage of Spanish speakers, I do think government forms, etc. should be made available in Spanish, as well as English. I've been in government offices where notices are printed in Vietnamese, Russian, Tagalog, and heaven knows what else. This to me seems like taking things to an extreme, but as long as everybody is not forced into speaking Tagalog or whatever, I don't see the harm in it.
I guess I just don't like the idea of people being coerced into speaking any given language, and the English Only movement smacks of that coercion. First generation Americans may have difficulty with the language, but their children grow up to be bi-lingual which I think is a good thing. Knowing another language besides English allows you a broader view of the world, and we are increasingly becoming a global community. It wouldn't hurt to speak an extra language or two. I wish I was bi-lingual.
I agree, it's useful to be bilingual - if you're in a place that uses both languages. I worked summers as a bilingual secretary (temp) in Ottawa to put myself through college (back when it was possible to do that with a good summer job). At the time, I was pretty fluent in French; now I'm very rusty. My husband spoke only Ukrainian until he went to school. Years later he retains only a smattering of it because he hasn't used it.
In Toronto, Oakville, and Hamilton, Ontario (the most populous area of the province) you'll hear almost any language you can think of ... except French. Having signs and services in French in that area isn't the most logical thing. The law is based on ideology rather than reality.
There's more than a bit of German (from the Saxons):
"English is the result of Norman men-at-arms attempting to pick up Saxon barmaids and is no more legitimate than any of the other results."
- H. Beam Piper
I'm teaching English in Japan and I loved this quote. It's the most pithy explanation for the inconsistencies in English.
Seriously, though, being unable to speak the language of the country where I have moved is very limiting and I am sure I miss out on a lot. But I chose to come here and if I were planning to stay long-term I'd be studying Japanese much more than now. If you migrate to a country, learn the language. Even a few mangled basics can get you by.
But it's great business to have an English speaker on staff. Most Anglophones in this city are with the same phone, internet, travel agent and computer companies, for this reason.
So to apply this to US schools:
Everyone must learn the official language (English). Without it you're at a major disadvantage. But lots of people should learn common minority languages (Spanish, etc) too. And I recall (but can't cite, sorry) claims that English-only schools are less effective at teaching minority students than mixed language schools. Remember they're also learning math, history, science etc - and social skills.
now let me end with the universal language ...
:grouphug:
...
Everyone must learn the official language (English). Without it you're at a major disadvantage. But lots of people should learn common minority languages (Spanish, etc) too.
But English is not the official language. The US doesn't have one.
"English is the result of Norman men-at-arms attempting to pick up Saxon barmaids and is no more legitimate than any of the other results."
- H. Beam Piper
Long live Little Fuzzy!
I think it is a great idea. No other nation cow tows like this.
You what?
Is it different in Canada? Belgium? Holland? Is there some key point I am missing which makes their multilinguality not "cow-towing"? (trying to erase visions of heiffers on skateboards holding on to ropes atrached to pick-up trucks from my mind)
I think the correct spelling is kowtow and it's a Chinese word.
Here's a definition:
Kowtow, from the Chinese term Kòu tóu (Cantonese: Kau tàuh) (叩頭 traditional, 叩头 simplified), is the act of deep respect shown by kneeling and bowing so low as to touch the head to the ground. While the phrase Kē tóu (磕頭) is often used in lieu of the former in modern Chinese, the meaning is somewhat altered: kòu originally meant "knock with reverence", whereas kè has the general meaning of "touch upon (a surface)".
So like most other languages that come into contact with western english speaking nations, the true meaning of the word has been lost by people not being open minded enough to realize that bowing is not necessarily showing your inferiority to another, but rather it can and should usually be a way of showing your respect.
I guess that means no heiffers on skateboards. lol
umm.....kow tows to whom exactly?
But English is not the official language. The US doesn't have one.
mmm. didn't know that. Never been there. :dunce:
But the point still works if you replace "official" with "predominant" or "most common". Even if government services are multi-lingual, very much else isn't. Having lesser English skills is still a disadvantage.
You trip me up on semantics, and if that weren't exactly the sort of thing I get up to I'd get so ... so ... something.
PS I'm new... what do you mean, HungLikeJesus. He wasn't hung (hanged). He was nailed, with big 10-inch-long, iron-hard spikes ......... aaaahhhhhhh. Sir I am impressed! :notworthy
PS I really want to see some cow towing in the IOTD. Oh please please. I am laughing already.
:)
Surely he was hanging from the nails.....like a picture?
Surely he was hanging from the nails.....like a picture?
Well I suppose so ... but my interpretation is much dirtier. :censored:
but I'm not trusting you to hang the Mona Lisa ...
WHAM WHAM WHAM
What? Not drive nails through her wrists? Ooops
:smashfrea
:bonk:
Welcome to the Cellar, Zengum, you clearly fit right in. Well apart from the self-censorship there. That is not allowed, all filth must be in the open :D
I'm teaching English in Japan and I loved this quote. It's the most pithy explanation for the inconsistencies in English.
If you liked that, Zen, you should really check out "The Mother Tongue" by Bill Bryson. It's an informative and funny look at the English language.
Long live Little Fuzzy!
A Little Fuzzy Fan! I knew I liked you! :blush:
mmm. didn't know that. Never been there. :dunce:
But the point still works if you replace "official" with "predominant" or "most common". Even if government services are multi-lingual, very much else isn't. Having lesser English skills is still a disadvantage.
You trip me up on semantics, and if that weren't exactly the sort of thing I get up to I'd get so ... so ... something.
PS I'm new... what do you mean, HungLikeJesus. He wasn't hung (hanged). He was nailed, with big 10-inch-long, iron-hard spikes ......... aaaahhhhhhh. Sir I am impressed! :notworthy
ZenGum, I just read your profile. For some reason I thought you were an American living in Japan. My apologies.
Welcome to the Cellar, Zengum, you clearly fit right in. Well apart from the self-censorship there. That is not allowed, all filth must be in the open :D
Thank you, monster!
(now there's a phrase I don't think I've used before).
Sorry about the self-censorship, but I couldn't find a smilie with a big dick...
LoL! We deffo need a smilie with a big cock. I can't believe we have'nt got one....here of all places.
Yay..another aussie, and in my (possible future) line of work too!
Welcome to the Cellar!
ZenGum, I just read your profile. For some reason I thought you were an American living in Japan. My apologies.
No problem at all. I was talking confidently about what the US ought to do, your assumption was reasonable.
And frankly, telling Australians from US citizens is getting harder all the time. Damn our foreign, economic, and social policies so closely follow yours, is there any chance of you guys giving us the vote soon? I mean if the US president (oops, vice-president :vader1: ) basically decides when Australia goes to war, can't we have a say? Please?
;)
Well, there's a modest proposal.
And now we grasp the implications of the handle -- the Gum smells of cough drops... or some parts of the State of California.
I see Australia is paying the US, $800,000,000 to use our military satellites.
I wonder who we're spying on
Well, there's a modest proposal.
And now we grasp the implications of the handle -- the Gum smells of cough drops... or some parts of the State of California.
Well, gum trees are originally Australian, which was the reference I intended. "Zen" because I am presently in Japan. And it had a catchy sound.
I see Australia is paying the US, $800,000,000 to use our military satellites.
Fucking WHAT? :eek: That's almost as much as the present government has spent on politically biased "informative" advertising!:blah:
I wonder who we're spying on
Probably ourselves. :eyeball: Specifically, the ABC's Chaser team (the guys who did the APEC stunt with the fake Canadian convoy) :lol2:
Yes well those chaser boys are a bunch of dicks. I don't thnk they'd be worth spying on.
I think we might be spying on Warney.
Yes well those chaser boys are a bunch of dicks. I don't thnk they'd be worth spying on.
Well, I thought it was as funny as hell. But I note there is a strong split over this one.
I think we might be spying on Warney.
I'd guess keeping an eye on Muralitharan's elbow. (I just put that in to baffle our US Cellarites!)
But if we pay $800,000,000 for access to US Satellite data, are they paying us rent for the three bases they have here? And do they "check" the data before passing it along?
P.S. Is it "Cellarites"? Cellarians? Cellarbrities?
Cellar Dwellars or Cellarites or pretty much anything else you'd like to call yourself as a member of this fine establishment.
Or they might be watching to see if shoab's going to make up with his team mates so he can play this season. lol
But if we pay $800,000,000 for access to US Satellite data, are they paying us rent for the three bases they have here? And do they "check" the data before passing it along?
I have no idea. But the answer to the second part is No, if you believe a book called Chatter. He does a whole chapter on the SatCom bases in Aussie land.
I don't support English only, but I do support English first and that includes teaching it in the schools. We should support those making the transitions while learning to speak English, but that does not mean teaching a class in two languages at the same time in the same room.
In many ways it is another sign of our uncontrolled immigration policy and failure to police up illegal immigration. We have allowed people to come here and not provided a way for them to assimilate. We have been burdened with the costs as a society for this failed policy and the language issue debate is another symptom of that failed policy.
The wife says we should have imported some koalas along with the eucalypts -- for decorative purposes. We have several varieties around, they being well adapted to rain being only seasonal, which is the case throughout southern and central California. The north end of the state gets the bulk of the rain -- unlike Spain, the plain getteth not the main rain.
The original, failed scheme was for eucalypts to supply railroad ties and be cheap and swift to grow. They got the wrong kind of eucalypts -- you couldn't put a spike into a balk of this wood without it splitting end to end. Perhaps they should have invented reinforced concrete railway ties a century or so sooner, but absolutely no one in the US was thinking in those terms at that time. They wrote it off as an idea that didn't pan out.
So the commercial use we found for these trees was to plant them as shelter-belts for fields, particularly the citrus orchards. Such plantings are all over my county. They just cut one of these down in my city because the trees were becoming senescent, having been planted back when pioneering Senator Bard was still a farmer, 1880 or so. Eucalyptus as pulpwood seems a growing development, and the local Procter & Gamble paper products plant -- towels and bath tissues -- uses this pulp, but it's shipped in from elsewhere and I don't know the source.
Intelligence, from satellite as well as other sources, is really the only thing that allows a nation to come up with sensible, effectual foreign policy. I'm not surprised the Australian government is willing to enter into a third-party agreement with ours to get these data.
I'd guess keeping an eye on Muralitharan's elbow. (I just put that in to baffle our US Cellarites!)
I say, was or is that really... cricket?! [/Terry-Thomas voice]
But if we pay $800,000,000 for access to US Satellite data, are they paying us rent for the three bases they have here? And do they "check" the data before passing it along?
As a onetime intelligence guy, I'm only going to say I will refuse to comment.
The wife says we should have imported some koalas along with the eucalypts -- for decorative purposes. We have several varieties around, they being well adapted to rain being only seasonal, which is the case throughout southern and central California. The north end of the state gets the bulk of the rain -- unlike Spain, the plain getteth not the main rain.
The Koala idea is interesting. Koala numbers are falling in most of Australia, urban sprawl being the prime culprit. But on Kangaroo Island, they were taken there recently, are disease free, and the population is booming to the point that they are overeating their resources and destroying the national park, and will eventually face starvation. A few years back they were (briefly) shooting them to reduce numbers, imagine the outrage! They switched to a much less efficient catch and sterilize program. Hmmm, maybe if we export a few hundred and start a colony in California...
They are very picky about what they eat, so you'd need to have the
right kinds of gum trees, but they'd leave everything else well alone. But if you recall the Simpson's visit to Australia...
Rain is seasonal in Australia. Every third Tuesday in August, without fail. That's about it.
Eucalyptus as pulpwood seems a growing development, and the local Procter & Gamble paper products plant -- towels and bath tissues -- uses this pulp, but it's shipped in from elsewhere and I don't know the source.
Probably Australian old-growth forests. Grrrr.:mad2: See Koala population comment.
Intelligence, from satellite as well as other sources, is really the only thing that allows a nation to come up with sensible, effectual foreign policy. I'm not surprised the Australian government is willing to enter into a third-party agreement with ours to get these data.
Indeed, getting to piggyback on the US satellite system is a great thing. But the price is more than $800,000,000. It is also being your loyal sidekick, sending troops to Iraq and Afghanistan, Somalia and Vietnam. I'm not saying it isn't worth it mind you, we get a good package ... FA-18 jets, Abrams tanks ...
No point being whores three nights a week and pretending on the other nights that we're not whores. If we're in, do it properly. But I do wish you could find a better president. Really, out of 300,000,000 people, this was the
best president you could find ... TWICE??? :speechls:
Zen, I have to correct you and say that while there are some areas in Australia where koala populations are falling due to urban sprawl, on the whole, the numbers have increased over the last 50yrs or so. This is attributed in part to awareness of the plight of koalas, but also farmers replanting trees for emissions projects etc, in effect, giving back what they had once taken away.
UG - perhaps your scientists should have read some of the texts from early settlement in Australia. At this time it was discovered that eucalypt timber was very unsatisfactory as a building material (one strain being so bad as to be named Ironbark). The bulk of timber for early settlement in Australia actually came from Norfolk Island, which is of course famous for the Norfolk Island Pine.
Gum, without getting toooo far into details that have already been fought over on these fora, I'm quite enthusiastic over a President who actually tries to win a war started by other people, and win it with what's really the only likely permanently effectual strategy: our terror problems come out of the Barnettian-Gap nations, and the way to reduce the problems permanently is to bring the Gap nations into global connectivity, economic and cultural. Wresting these nations from the benighted grip of dictatorship is the first step. The populace tends to be more enthusiastic about globalization than the rulership.
And yet, for the unforgivable sin of trying to win a war :lol: some dumbunnies want to impeach the guy I voted for twice. That says the antiwar crew are either fascist sympathisers or unbelievably stupid.
I should have known better than to get into a current events forum ...
:hide:
Aliantha, I am not convinced about the Koalas ... do you have link you can send me so that I can read about it?
UG, trust me, I do not support the Talliban. I support the Afghanistan war/invasion/operation call it what you will. And the ultimate goal of a planet where everyone gets along without blowing each other up sounds good. But I think the strategies pursued to that end, especially preemptively (ha, proactively, take that RKZenrage!) invading Iraq with minimal international support, and many decisions since then (especially disbanding the Iraqi army and gutting the civil service) were clearly mistakes. So I don't oppose the goal, I'm just worried about the guys who're driving the bus.
For the record, I opposed going into Iraq, but now that we have, I oppose pulling out. But I'm sure you don't need me to discuss the likely consequences of doing that!
Sorry for this off thread rant.
Zen. the info on the koalas came up during a convo with my husband a couple of weeks ago. He has access to plenty of data on that sort of thing due to the field of work he's in.
I'll see if I can get some 'proof' for you though. ;)
This article talks about how there are too many koalas in some areas and not enough in others. It covers the reasons for each, but it's in pretty simple text so easy to read.
This article has an interesting case study of Koalas in south east Qld where of course we have a large decline in numbers due to rapid growth in the area.
Naw, ZenG, that's how a lot of people view the matter, and you couldn't say it's without justice, could you? Now what pleases me particularly about it is that it's being attempted at all, partisan of democracy that I am: the less-than-democracies must go, and stay gone, come hell or high water. That's where I've been, my entire thinking life. (Some here profess astonishment at this, and express opposition. And yet, they were born in the twentieth century?!)
I speak of these not as separate wars, Afghanistan and Iraq, but as campaigns within the wider war. It's the make-America-lose faction that blathers and bloviates about two wars, demonstrating their inferiority of thought and clouded understanding -- oh, and a complete want of strategy, broader and more profound than any flaws exhibited by the Administration -- a want of any other strategy than to defeat America's and humanity's cause, apparently because a Republican President is Commander in Chief. My God, how long, O Lord? Such a want makes this faction specious, invisible in patriotism, and valueless.
I better stop succumbing to this temptation to pull the thread offtopic, though.
Tennis anyone?
Barnettian-Gap.
Big Dic.
Barnettian-Gap.
Big Dic.
Barnettian-Gap.
Big Dic.
Barnettian-Gap.
Big Dic.
Barnettian-Gap.
Big Dic.
Love-Love.
:elkgrin: Hee, hee!
Can't expect absolutely everyone to have read this even now, but I just picked up my very own copy of Blueprint For Action: A World Worth Creating at remaindered prices. Barnes & Noble.
Tw's talking like he's read at least some of it too.
Meanwhile, this Thomas P.M. Barnett guy is a busy blogger.
Hi UG,
Lets call a truce here and stop hijacking Cloud's thread.
Maybe one day I will come and play with you in the politics forum. But probably not. Bruce is right, it just becomes opinion tennis pretty quickly. Let's stick to dick jokes and big vats of liquefied heads. They're fun.
Aliantha,
I've read the articles, (ok, skimmed the second one, it was real science). I will slightly revise my initial post: from "Koala numbers are falling in most of Australia, urban sprawl being the prime culprit". For "most" read "some". But I fear those "some" are the prime koala homelands, which for the same reasons, are the places humans want to live. And the fragmentation of populations can lead to problems.
Ecologically, frogs are much more important. But what tourist ever got themselves photographed with a frog?
But the good news is, koalas and humans can share:
These pics were taken in Adelaide in the heat wave of December 2005/January 2006, when temperatures went up to 45 centigrade (113 F) or so for several days in a row. Faces blacked because these are not my pics, not my kids, in fact I have no idea who they are.
You're correct about the fragmentation of the colonies. There's a big problem with inbreeding in some smallers ones which are cut off from others due to urban sprawl. Particularly in SE Qld. National parks are doing their best to move them around a bit so that this problem can be negated somewhat. Data about it's success is not readily available yet though due to the project being in its relative infancy.
Oh, oh... fragmentation of koala colonies, yes. Right. Ahem. :o
Zen, true, true.
Yes. Joke, self-deprecating, one each.
I thought so. It's always good to check though.
Fuck those koalas. If they are too lazy to learn to speak English, they deserve to be fragmented.
Fuck those koalas. If they are too lazy to learn to speak English, they deserve to be fragmented.
Can we eat them? I mean since they don't speak english we might as well make use of them as food.
apparently they taste like a mouthful of gumleaves...so it's up to you.
apparently they taste like a mouthful of gumleaves...so it's up to you.
Yuk. Green Gum Leaves. Is that the meat or just the fleshy part?
pretty much all parts.
Remember, you are what you eat. ;)
pretty much all parts.
Remember, you are what you eat. ;)
So I must taste like Guinness!
I must taste like red curry duck then...and rice and samosas and thai fish cakes.
I must taste like red curry duck then...and rice and samosas and thai fish cakes.
Oh, God, not another woman that tastes like fish! Don't we have enough of those already?
:footpyth:
We don't eat them, we just pimp them out to all the foreign (mainly Japanese) tourists who want to have their photo taken holding one.
Seriously they are huge money spinners.
Well the Japanese might not be keen on your body odour either!
I reckon the koalas are closer to learning Japanese than English.
"Kawaii!!!!" (Trans: Cute!!! rhymes with Hawaii.) They must hear that so bloody often.
How about we teach the wild ones how to catch buses, and give them free passes. That'll solve the fragmentation issue.