College
My dad prettymuch shoved a copy of US News's list of top colleges down my throat this weekend, so, I now present for your collective consideration, a list of some of the schools I'm thinking about at one level or another. If I left off any you think I should consider, or think any of these are particularly bad choices... say so.
But no southern colleges. Not even Austin. I can't live in the south, I just can't do it.
California - Berkeley
UMich - Ann Arbor
California - Santa Barbara
UMD
UC Santa Cruz
University of Vermont
Middlebury
Smith College
Bryn Mawr
St. Mary's (MD)
Smith and Bryn Mawr are incredibly bad choices. Well, depending on what you had in mind. They're women's colleges.
Edit. I don't know what people are thinking, trying to go to one of the "highest ranked" places. Your rankings are going to be different from theirs. I started out trying to go to the most competitive places but wound up in a slightly smaller, slightly less competitive place... and it fit me like a glove, because what I really wanted to do was try a little of everything, which was very possible at a tiny college. Otherwise, I wouldn't have become the manager of the radio station, worked on the literary magazine, did layout work for the newspaper... as a Comp Sci major. At a bigger school that stuff would be reserved for Communications/Lit/English majors. It was perfect for me to be at a small place where everybody got to know me... at a big school I would have gotten lost. On this list, St Mary's would be the closest to that experience, but there are about a hundred St Mary's sprinkled throughout the Northeast. You can't throw a rock around here and not hit a quaint little liberal arts college. And they are getting to be more of a bargain than they used to because everybody wants to go to a massive university for some reason.
What do you mean, womens' colleges?
EDIT: shit you're right, i didnt even notice that, hahahahaha.
Fucking college websites are just about the worst fuckin' sites ive ever seen i swear.
And i just used the list as reference for seein' where I may wanna go, I didn't really pay any attention to the actual rating. I think I really do want more like what you just described, but I dont even know how to go about finding one of those. Besides, I'm still what, two years off from having to make a decision?
Yeah man you really need to go on a college visit road trip or something. No articles or websites compare to physically visiting the campus and getting a feel for what it would be like to be a student there. Example: in high school I wanted so dang badly to go to Miami (of Ohio), but when I went to visit my brother there for a weekend I was completely turned off. It is the preppiest school I have ever seen and I would have completely not felt at home there. I know what you're thinking, yeah but the whole school isn't like that, there's going to be people I like hanging out with and become friends with basically anywhere. Which is true, but it's a fact that each school has a certain atmosphere about it and it's awesome when you find the one that fits you best. I've had friends transfer from some pretty prestigious schools just because they didn't like "the feel of it".
I see someone already beat me to the Bryn Mawr thing. You could go to Haverford, which I think shares some classes with Bryn Mawr and just maybe, if you were cool enough, a group of the mildly less militant lesbians would vote you in as an honorary vagina-bearer. Happened to one of my male friends who was in the social work program there. But he did take his wife's name when they married ...
Well that list is useless, no offense to your dad. "Let's see now... should I go to Middlebury... or Berkeley???" Get some idea of what you're looking for. (A large public university? Small liberal arts? Pre-professional? etc.) In general I would not bother with the US News rankings. For the most part what you learn from it is that famous schools are famous. Harvard is Harvard... does anybody (except for some overexcited alumni) care whether it's ranked #1 or #3 or #2 this year?
I agree with Tony. Don't kill yourself trying to get into the most famous school you can. Actually look at the faculty... meet some of them... how to find them? Ask around. I personally would recommend either my or Mrs. Dallas' alma maters, UNC-Greensboro and Gettysburg college respectively. My advice is to study the course catalog carefully and see who teaches courses. Strongly prefer places where the faculty actually teach undergraduate courses, instead of leaving it for the grad students.
You may not have as much time as you think. You probably need to have all your application stuff in by new year's during your senior year.
EDIT:
I see someone already beat me to the Bryn Mawr thing. You could go to Haverford, which I think shares some classes with Bryn Mawr
Haverford students have full reciprocity to cross-register for any course at Bryn Mawr, or even live at Bryn Mawr, and vice versa. They can also cross-register at Swarthmore. Regular bus service runs between the three campuses. It's a very nice place, but you're definitely paying for the name.
EDIT again:
And
read this.
I see someone already beat me to the Bryn Mawr thing. You could go to Haverford, which I think shares some classes with Bryn Mawr and just maybe, if you were cool enough, a group of the mildly less militant lesbians would vote you in as an honorary vagina-bearer. Happened to one of my male friends who was in the social work program there. But he did take his wife's name when they married ...
I think I'd be
down with
that?
Well that list is useless, no offense to your dad. "Let's see now... should I go to Middlebury... or Berkeley???" Get some idea of what you're looking for. (A large public university? Small liberal arts? Pre-professional? etc.) In general I would not bother with the US News rankings. For the most part what you learn from it is that famous schools are famous. Harvard is Harvard... does anybody (except for some overexcited alumni) care whether it's ranked #1 or #3 or #2 this year?
I agree with Tony. Don't kill yourself trying to get into the most famous school you can. Actually look at the faculty... meet some of them... how to find them? Ask around. I personally would recommend either my or Mrs. Dallas' alma maters, UNC-Greensboro and Gettysburg college respectively. My advice is to study the course catalog carefully and see who teaches courses. Strongly prefer places where the faculty actually teach undergraduate courses, instead of leaving it for the grad students.
You may not have as much time as you think. You probably need to have all your application stuff in by new year's during your senior year.
Yeah, I know, I know - the list as ranking is BS, I don't care what a school's ranked... but it's a list of decent schools, at least, and it gives me some idea of schools to look at, as a starting point, at least.
Just for reference, I'm looking at a bunch of different majors... from journalism to government/political science to psych to... I really have no idea. But I'm mostly looking into Gov or Journalism, at this point, I think, maybe.
I agree with UT about the bigger/smaller colleges. I went to Berkeley as an undergrad, without any support system at all (my parents were 2000 miles away). Big mistake. BIG mistake.
Start with this question ... what do you want to go to college for, then pick a school that does that.
Oh, and the school should be good to okay at other things too, because you'll probably change your major in there somewhere.
Or you can just choose off the Playboy list of top 5 party schools.
I worked with someone who did that. I was recently very pleased to see that the school is keeping up it's rep, as Rider College had some kid die of alcohol poisoning at a frat party yet again.
I would be glad to be a vagina-bearer. I would carry it on my dick.*
[SIZE=1]*In this case, the word "dick" was used to maximize comedic value. Other words such as "penis", "cock", and "wang" were evaluated but none were found to have the combination of shock and comic awe of a stronger and more vulgar term. Also, there is a "k" sound in it, which makes it funnier. The "k" sound actually occurs twice in "cock", making it one of the funniest words available to the English language, but its former use here makes it a distraction from the humor of the line.
[/SIZE]
I would be glad to be a vagina-bearer.
How about a vagina-barer?
But no southern colleges. Not even Austin. I can't live in the south, I just can't do it.
I know, I know. You said not even Austin. But I can't help myself.
You should really,
really check out the
Plan II program at the University of Texas. (Yes, it's the program I graduated from, that makes me
informed about it, not biased. :)) If you come visit the school, I will show you around. I am serious. You would love it here.
Did you know that Austin has the second-highest gay population after San Francisco? Did you know that the 78704 zip code has the highest concentration of professional musicians of anywhere in the country? Austin isn't part of the south, man. It's just not.
Yeah, agreed with everyone else. Were you just trying to show off when you listed those bs schools? No one here is going to be impressed with that. Plus you listed women's schools...shows your researching skills, dude. Like everyone said, visit schools, some blue college yellow page book just doesn't do it. College is the best time of your life, don't base it off numbers. It's the feel.
:headshake What about ND??? :headshake
Speaking as one of the few cellar members currently in college, don't throw away any sources of information. Just saying that rankings aren't total crap, they're guidelines to give you a starting point. The biggest things you want from a school are dedicated profs who have personal experience and high achievement in the subjects they teach, and connections to professional organizations and programs that you will want to use during your major. Most of the time, higher ranked schools have more stuff available to students, but do your research and look up what criteria the list is based on.
My personal advice? Avoid tiny schools that keep on harping about personalized attention. A tiny faculty-to-student ratio is really only useful for your first semester freshman year. If you're a good student who's motivated, you won't have a problem developing a relationship with your profs, they're on the lookout for students like that.
Small schools can hurt you in other ways as well. Here at U Pitt, the professors doing research generally laugh at the idea of taking students from tiny colleges because they find them too spoon fed and attention seeking. It isn't always appropriate to expect a personal relationship with your bosses. A big school will get your used to working on your own with a realistic level of guidance, not constant hand holding, that doesn't work in real life.
(Also, our medical school, which is #1 for transplants, really doesn't even consider applicants from the 'hand-holder U's)
Lots of activities might be fun, but after the four years people are going to want experience in YOUR area of focus. Being all over the board and never doing prolonged work in one area (multiple years) is taken to mean you can't focus yourself.
College is the best time of your life, don't base it off numbers. It's the feel.
This from the guy home alone with the haunted basement and dirty laundry on a holiday weekend?
:lol:
The course is the most important thing -there are likely to be several places with teaching that will suit you, then you pick between those based on the lesser factors. You can go to the biggest party school of all, but if you're failing miserably because the course is not right for you, you won't be having any fun. Oh and even if you have a shitload of fun, college is just the best time of your life SO FAR. If you believe it's all downhill from there, you might as well pack it in and get a McJob.
Just look the old man straight in the eye and say, "College? I'm a fucking Rock Star."
I've tried that one already. Seriously.
OK, that explains, "My dad pretty much shoved a copy of US News's list of top colleges down my throat this weekend,...".
But no southern colleges. Not even Austin. I can't live in the south, I just can't do it.
Don't rule out the South so quick, dude. Cities like Austin and Atlanta are really progressive places these days. In Atlanta I found the people friendlier and the culture extremely laid back, which sounds like it might be your thing. And if you wanna get into art or music, you may find these two cities in particular very accommodating.
And a note on majoring in journalism .... it's not necessary to "study" journalism. Take the intro classes and then join the newspaper or the radio station - you'll learn more than you need to know. College media is often more professional than you'd imagine.
My mom is a journalism major and a psych minor, and she somewhat recommends doing a journalism major. She also kinda wants me to go to like, law school... thats pretty out too.
And I just know I could never live in the south. Going down that way to visit family is excruciating enough. Austin would probably be a cool city, but as soon as you get outside Austin... you're back in hicksville. I can't stand the south - sorry, southern folk.
You're allowed to hate on the south if you're a southern boy, anyway.
as soon as you get outside Austin... you're back in hicksville.
There goes the rust belt: NJ DE PA OH MI IN IL WI and certain parts of NY are hick incorporated outside of the suburban areas. NASCAR has advanced as far north as NH.
Austin and surrounding areas is a very cool place.
I just took my vacation on Canyon Lake, went to Schlitterbahn in New Braunfels, and visited historic Gruene.
Austin would probably be a cool city, but as soon as you get outside Austin... you're back in hicksville.
Well who needs to ever leave Austin? I mean, as soon as you get outside your city you're in the jungle, right?
You seem to be about my age (I'm a junior in high school). And I live in South Carolina...what you got against us southerners? Sure we've got a few senile old racists who put up their dukes at the sound of the word "Iraqi" but other than that I'd like to think we're kinda nice. Kinda. I'd like to think.
I'm actually thinking University of South Carolina for several reasons, and here are a few: 1) I want to be a pilot, so I figure I'll take some aeronautical engineering, physics, math, and communication...all of which are available with at USC with a relatively good reputation (Clemson's engineering program is a little better but neither are spectacular). 2) I'm very familiar with the campus because my older sister attended and graduated (Cum Laude with honors, in fact), so we made several trips to visit/move her stuff/family events/etc. 3) It's an hour and a half away, so the 'rents won't be all sad and I can make trips home without much difficulty. 4) I'm familiar with the Southern culture and crap; I won't be too much of an outcast, plus I'll get in-state tuition, more scholarship opportunities, etc.
I'm not real sure why I just spilled my life's goals and plans out on a thread that's not even mine, but I did. Good luck on finding the right place.
Tolerant guy, isn't he? :headshake
My mom is a journalism major and a psych minor, and she somewhat recommends doing a journalism major. She also kinda wants me to go to like, law school... thats pretty out too.
Eh, you got years ahead of you. Pick something you like and show your parents a well-laid out plan - they'll get off your case if you produce some output.
And I just know I could never live in the south. Going down that way to visit family is excruciating enough. Austin would probably be a cool city, but as soon as you get outside Austin... you're back in hicksville. I can't stand the south - sorry, southern folk.
You're allowed to hate on the south if you're a southern boy, anyway.
Ditto UT - like 90% of the northeast is just as whitewashed - if not worse - than below the mason-dixon line. I felt just as much out of place driving through parts of NJ as I did taking road trips to Mississippi and Alabama.
You could cope culturally with about anything in California, then.
As soon as you get outside Austin . . . it's hicksville.
That's pretty much true outside all major metro areas. Even in California.
Learn to appreciate a variety of people. That's one of the things college is about.
I do appreciate a variety of people. Don't get my wrong... for all my bluster, I love the south. The people are nice, generally, and boy do southerners know how to eat... but I just can't stand them, politically. And aiya, if I can't talk politics, I just can't live there.
I do appreciate a variety of people. Don't get my wrong... for all my bluster, I love the south. The people are nice, generally, and boy do southerners know how to eat... but I just can't stand them, politically. And aiya, if I can't talk politics, I just can't live there.
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Living at a certain latitude does not define your political beliefs any more than the color of your skin defines your intelligence.
I suppose it makes the world seem more understandable, less daunting, when we force widely diverse data sets into rigid catagories; but never fool yourself into believing that you are describing reality.
Let's test your theory: I live in Texas. What are my political beliefs? Unless you can state the correct answer with 100% certainty, then your theory is total shit.
When a theory is total shit, you abandon it. Otherwise, you're a fool. Your choice.
Wait, I just realized what your response should be:
You're one of the good ones.
dude...
Reed
and I've got a nephew at Hampshire and he takes classes at Smith, Amherst and Mt. Holyoke.
Liberal Arts with a capital ELL!
There's a book out there called "Colleges that will change your life." I think it would be a good read for you -- it gives more weight to the personality and philosophy of the school, and less to largely-meaningless statistics. Other than that, I would suggest that you apply to Eugene Lang in NYC, but that's based on my very vague knowledge of what you're into. :)
And sorry, but I have to join in the dogpile here. Liberal towns in the South are very, very liberal -- like more yoga studios than gas stations liberal. :D
if I can't talk politics, I just can't live there.
So you only want to talk poiltics with those who agree with you? Spoken like a True Republican ;)
No, I was half-kidding about that. But honestly, I just dont want to live in the south. It's too hot, too conservative, too dictorial, too christian (too babtist, specifically), and too not-me.
That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Living at a certain latitude does not define your political beliefs any more than the color of your skin defines your intelligence.
I suppose it makes the world seem more understandable, less daunting, when we force widely diverse data sets into rigid catagories; but never fool yourself into believing that you are describing reality.
Let's test your theory: I live in Texas. What are my political beliefs? Unless you can state the correct answer with 100% certainty, then your theory is total shit.
When a theory is total shit, you abandon it. Otherwise, you're a fool. Your choice.
Calm down, man. There's no way in hell you can deny that there are a LOT more conservatives in the south than in the north. It's just the way it is. He wasn't saying that southerner = republican, he was saying the south = conservative, which is true.
And Ibram, I'm a yankee born super liberal, but I've managed to find quite a bit of interesting things south of the mason dixon. If you're looking for the right college, I would suggest finding one that will challenge your world view rather than just support it. Take a chance and step out of yourself, you might find it's better than you thought.
Jesus I sound like a recruiter or something.
There's no way in hell you can deny that there are a LOT more conservatives in the south than in the north. It's just the way it is.
I can deny that very thing, in fact. There are
slightly more conservatives in Texas, straight up through the midwest, and over to the west towards Wyoming and Montana. Don't believe the all-or-nothing red state/blue state bullshit. Here's an electoral map from the 2004 election showing each county as a shade of
purple based on the percentage of red versus blue votes. That's a whole lot of blue and purple in the south, and a whole lot of red and purple in the north, ain't it?
But notice how you can actually see the vermont state borders there in blue?
Thats where I wanna be.
also, just because a southerner votes democrat doesn't mean theyre a social liberal. Most southern democrats are still socially conservative, which to me is really the problem.
I'm not saying that southerner = conservative! I'm saying the south is conservative. You can't just ignore the cultural differences of the south, in attempt to be more understanding. The south is more conservative. There are a lot more civil war memorials and such down here.
Of course, they're not all KKK members, but the conservative ideal is more institutionalized.
Nice one, Fobble. Does that site include any interactive maps you can zoom on?
So I'm going to take this year off. I still haven't decided if I want to go to school. I feel like sometimes higher education, as good as it sounds, isn't always the best option. Some people just aren't fit to be in college. My cousin tried to go to a private institution but ended up unenrolling after first semester as a freshman. He's a bright guy, smart, but just couldn't handle college. I kind of feel like, if I too were to attend college that it just might not be right for me, and I might waste a semester's worth of money when I could be establishing myself in the blue collar work force for maybe 14 dollars an hour this fall. Let's say in a year I move up to 18 dollars an hour, full time job. That's what, 30k a year? Maybe my math is wrong, but for a 19 year old I'll definitely take that. From what I've read most of you are well educated and attended school, but I am not convinced it will be the best decision for some people, maybe myself.
Vermont hicks exist, and are breath-taking. Remember that it's completely rural and mountainous...
I'll tell you what. Try this as an exercise. Go to Match.com and check out what sort of people are within ten miles of the area code that you figure is perfect for you. You don't have to date them, just browse and look at them.
Vermont hicks exist, and are breath-taking. Remember that it's completely rural and mountainous...
True. Of course if you really want intolerance, check out the Vermont left.
I highly recommend the University of Iowa. Iowa City is a spectacular place, filled with diversity galore. I know websites are teh ghey, but give
Iowa's a glance. Pay special attention to the
Gay Lesbian Bisexual Transgender and Allied Union It's one of the the oldest University recognized and funded LBGTA groups in the United States. (36 years old this year!) :2cents:
When you live in any area, you will be dealing with individual human beings, not statistical probabilities.
I have a few questions:
…I love the south. The people are nice … but I just can't stand [SIZE="3"]them[/SIZE], politically.
Who are the "them" that you can’t stand? All Southerners, or just the ones that you disagree with? Can you "stand" the Northerners that you disagree with? How exactly will being at a certain latitude have any effect on this? People are people. Yeah, I just quoted Depeche Mode.
But, wait. Maybe it’s not a "them" …maybe it’s an "it"
???
It's … too conservative …
It's … too christian (too babtist [sic], specifically) …
It's … too not-me.
What exactly is the "it" here? The actual dirt that you are standing on? The mind-control chemicals in the drinking water?
When I go to a Pagan Drum Circle, what is the "it" that swoops in, checks what latitude we're at, and transforms the whole gathering into a Baptist Church Service?
When I’m playing a gig, and we’re playing a Neil Young song, what is the "it" that swoops in, checks the latitude, and transforms the song we're playing into a Toby Keith song?
There is no "it" … There is no "them" … There are no "Red States" or "Blue States" …
No matter where you go, you will gravitiate towards a group of like-minded people. Or, ideally (and this is a whole new subject), you could interact with people that you don't pretend to agree with, 100% on everything, and you could find some understanding and some common ground, and expand your horizons as a human being instead of being stubbornly closed-minded, clinging to your little comfort zone.
The "us versus them" mentality is the number one problem in the world. Don't be a part of the problem.
Ibram, based on what I've heard you say, and what I know about you, I'd suggest you look closely at
Marlboro College in VT. I have no affiliation with it, but it may be a good fit for you.
Flint, I understand that, and I'm cool with it, down with it. Just cause it's a red state doesnt mean theres some dots of blue.
But when it's state policy, and the opinion of the vast majority of the local population, that I have less rights than you cause I like sticking my pee-pee inside other people with pee-pees, there's a problem.
And, see, I've done the whole, conservative society thing. I live in fucking asia, for crying out loud, and when it comes to homogeneous uniformity, taiwan kicks texas' ass any day. I can assure you,
assure you, that I'd be much more accepted if i were to walk down the street in tight jeans, david bowie glitter shirt, makeup, girl's hair, etc, in
brattleboro (which doesn't even have any kind of public law forbidding nudity (or at least not anymore)) than in San Antonio.
I'm done living somewhere where I get stared at for being different, rather than getting stared at for being individual.
Believe it or not, I think you're more likely to be pilloried for that in Brattleboro than San Antonio.
Vermont may be blue, but it's still New England.
Ibram, based on what I've heard you say, and what I know about you, I'd suggest you look closely at Marlboro College in VT. I have no affiliation with it, but it may be a good fit for you.
glatt m'good man?
I think I love you.
I have just found my school.I second LabRat's advice with great fervor! I went to University of Iowa, (my pops also taught there and did some research for the PoliSci dept until recently) and I constantly and consistently recommend it to others. It's a fantastic university, great programs, etc.
My one main selling point would be the campus and the student body.
There is no real campus, all the buildings are dispersed throughout the town, so you walk around the down town area to get to class. Also, (and I'm sure this has nothing to do with your decision), but I've been to many a campus, and never found one with the party atmosphere that Iowa City has. It's a whole other planet come Friday night, not to mention just about every type of social group you can imagine (hippies, of course, being my favorite). Plus, dollar pitchers is an ok deal in town... ;)
...not the most responsible reason to choose a school, I know, but something you won't find listed on the webpage.
glatt m'good man?
I think I love you.
I have just found my school.
Great! Glad to help.
You should really research it well though. I don't know a lot about the place, but it seems like a good quality school if thats the style of school you want to attend.
...the opinion of the vast majority of the local population...
You won't be interacting with the vast majority of the local population. You won't be interacting with a theoretical being whose attributes are an average of the attributes of the vast majority of the local population. You'll be dealing with individual human beings, each one of which is unique.
You won't be interacting with the vast majority of the local population. You won't be interacting with a theoretical being whose attributes are an average of the attributes of the vast majority of the local population. You'll be dealing with individual human beings, each one of which is unique.
I think you're over reacting. Just because someone says "the south is more conservative than the north," it doesn't mean they're going to walk around all day thinking "they're ALL REPUBLICANS!" Like it's been said, there are like minded people in every corner of the globe to be your friend. He knows that, I know that, only the most simple minded people
don't know that. You know?
Yes, I know that - I'm the one saying that. [COLOR="White"]...[/COLOR] Our society is overwhelmingly homogenous. To define a geographical region with such simplistic characteristics is absolutely ridiculous, and it needs to be called out for what it is. I am reacting appropriately to a display of sloppy, illogical thinking.
...so you're saying that the south isn't more conservative?
Nice one, Fobble. Does that site include any interactive maps you can zoom on?
No, but it does have
several other interesting displays of the data, cartograms and such.
...so you're saying that the south isn't more conservative?
I'll answer your question with another question: If I lived in the "North" and I decided to have my home disassembled and shipped a few hunderd miles South, to a latitude that is considered (by whoever the committee is on this) to be "in the South" would my political beliefs, and that of everyone living in my home,
magically change because I was living somewhere different?
Or, are you saying that the mind-control drugs are injected into Southerners
at birth?Oh, wouldn't that explain a lot!
You can't deny local culture and values. And there's the rub, too, that we keep ironically whiffing on. Ib seeks acceptance. Let everyone with experience answer the following questions about acceptance.
1. By local customs, culture and values, who would be treated in a friendlier manner by everyday people on the streets?
A) A New Englander visiting someone in the south
B) A southerner visiting New England
2. An African-American is more likely to be middle-class in:
A) Utterly confirmed red state, Atlanta, GA
B) Utterly confirmed blue state, Boston, MA
3.
Marlboro College says their mission "is best served when students experience a wide variety of ideas, opinions and cultural backgrounds." Do you expect that Marlboro College has a very wide variety of ideas, opinions, and cultural backgrounds?
A) Um maybe
B) Are you kidding me.
4. If Ibby goes to Marlboro, will he be permitted to turn his guitar up above 3?
A) Sure, why not? His dulcet tones will be heard throughout the wood-construction house-style living areas.
B) No, this chick will surely cast the deciding negative vote at the Town Meeting.
5. If Ibby goes to Marlboro, will he get laid?
A) No, these chicks have a lot of baggage;
their sexual harrassment policy is 5000 words long and includes a compliance coordinator and a official board of six people
B) He'll probably get all 330 of the students, male and female, and two-thirds of the professors.
You can't deny local culture and values.
I can deny that they apply as a blanket characteristic of all people within a geographical region; and this is relevant because within each region, the poulation is so varied that everyone has plenty of like-minded people to interact with. So much so, that your very own circle of friends becomes, to you, what the "local" values are (considering the population density, and the very small number of people we actually encounter on a daily basis) ...
That doesn't help when dealing with the cops, the 7-11 counter guy, random shitholes at a local bar, etc.
That doesn't help when dealing with the cops , the 7-11 counter guy, random shitholes at a local bar, etc.
I'll give you the cops (as a possibility), but the 7/11 guy can fuck himself - he has no power over you.
Don't like the bar you're at? You're at the wrong bar. People who don't like each other don't go to the same bars.
You'll have to give me an "etc." ...
Oh my god, flint. I'M NOT SAYING THAT SOUTHERNER = CONSERVATIVE. I don't think that your political beliefs would magically change, but guess what? Your NEIGHBORS would be different, and a lot more likely to be conservative.
Don't like the bar you're at? You're at the wrong bar. People who don't like each other don't go to the same bars.
If you uprooted your ass from a bar stool and moved to another bar, would your political beliefs,
magically change because you were drinking somewhere different?
Or are you saying that some bars have more conservatives than others?
... but guess what? blah blah blah
I don't have to guess. I live here.
Don't like the bar you're at? You're at the wrong bar. People who don't like each other don't go to the same bars.
I'm saying that there are different bars for different types of people. You didn't know that there are Biker Bars, Sports Bars, and Gay Bars, etc.
???And if you feel that a certain bar may not be for you, due to a preponderance of one sort of attitude or another, you may have a preference for a different bar, I suppose.
Dude (or dudette), you've gone crazy. All this guy was trying to say is he doesn't want to go to school in the south because the south is conservative. That doesn't mean that everyone's more conservative, it just means the majority is.
Marlboro College says their mission "is best served when students experience a wide variety of ideas, opinions and cultural backgrounds." Do you expect that Marlboro College has a very wide variety of ideas, opinions, and cultural backgrounds?
I think maybe that's code for being gay friendly. Of course you are right, it is probably a very insular place. But I think that can be a good thing, depending on what you want from a school.
Ibram is artsy fartsy, liberal, and bi. He seems to be saying in this thread that he wants an artsy fartsy liberal school in Vermont. A place where he fits in. Insular can be good when you feel like you don't fit in with the real world. It's the same theory behind all black schools like Morehouse and all female schools like Smith. You have an easier time learning when you are in your comfort zone.
Marlboro seems to fit that well.
The author Shane L. Windmeyer writes that Marlboro “is dedicated to including all individuals who crave academic rigor and who have felt disillusioned with mainstream society – drama kids, band kids, science geeks, literature nerds, creative writers and, of course, queers.”
Isn't that Ibram?
Good advice glatt. I would hope that any sufficiently large school would provide a safe community for our guy, but with this one that seems assured.
Getting Dad to pony up may be an issue though...
I don't blame Ibram for wanting to go to school with a more liberal atmosphere because that is one of the biggest things about college. You can have a college that is mostly liberal and still have a conservative feel to it because of a lack of progressive action. Schools like Vermont (I'm assuming) and Minnesota have a lot of liberal action which gives it a much more liberal feel that I'm sure Ibram is looking for.
glatt I believe that the college folk, if they do not want to waste their money, should feel good about digging in with their own gender - and maybe nothing else.
College is a place to learn to think, not to dig in. It's a time to stretch and be stretched. To try on all kinds of ideas, including reaching to understand the ones you don't agree with.
You can't deny local culture and values. And there's the rub, too, that we keep ironically whiffing on. Ib seeks acceptance. Let everyone with experience answer the following questions about acceptance.
1. By local customs, culture and values, who would be treated in a friendlier manner by everyday people on the streets?
A) A New Englander visiting someone in the south
B) A southerner visiting New England
B
2. An African-American is more likely to be middle-class in:
A) Utterly confirmed red state, Atlanta, GA
B) Utterly confirmed blue state, Boston, MA
B
3. Marlboro College says their mission "is best served when students experience a wide variety of ideas, opinions and cultural backgrounds." Do you expect that Marlboro College has a very wide variety of ideas, opinions, and cultural backgrounds?
A) Um maybe
B) Are you kidding me.
A (probably)
4. If Ibby goes to Marlboro, will he be permitted to turn his guitar up above 3?
A) Sure, why not? His dulcet tones will be heard throughout the wood-construction house-style living areas.
B) No, this chick will surely cast the deciding negative vote at the Town Meeting.
A
5. If Ibby goes to Marlboro, will he get laid?
A) No, these chicks have a lot of baggage; their sexual harrassment policy is 5000 words long and includes a compliance coordinator and a official board of six people
B) He'll probably get all 330 of the students, male and female, and two-thirds of the professors.
B (chicks with baggage are easy :D )
Flint, what you're saying, in essence, if you'll forgive an extreme answer, that a jew in 1942 shouldnt have a problem moving to Germany, because, hey, not all Nazis are anti-semitic, and just because it's state policy that you should die, and the majority of people either agree or turn a blind eye, you could still probably find people who will accept you.
I'm not gonna live in the south, end of story. Sorry guys. Not going to convince me. I'm done living in a conservative society.
Why go to a college that's sure to reinforce your high school opinions?
I'm not gonna live in the south, end of story. Sorry guys. Not going to convince me. I'm done living in a conservative society.
That's the joke, Ibram. You're not done living in a conservative society. But we don't have to convince you. You'll live in the north once you get out of college, and discover on your own that there are plenty of conservatives there too.
Why go to a college that's sure to reinforce your high school opinions?
No problem really, I give two years to recognize another form of totalitarian society. In the mean time, he's in a town where he doesn't stick out too much. Then he transfers, joins the ROTC, goes active, gets assigned to the Joint Chiefs...:)
That's the joke, Ibram. You're not done living in a conservative society. But we don't have to convince you. You'll live in the north once you get out of college, and discover on your own that there are plenty of conservatives there too.
So by that logic, there's no such thing as a liberal society in america?
That's BS. Marlboro already looks just plain perfect.
I don't get you guys' argument. There are
some liberals down south, so its not a conservative society, and I'd love it there... and there are
some conservatives in Vermont, so it is a conservative society, so I would hate it there?
I know where I like to be. I don't like to be in the south. It's a great place but I could never, ever live there. Just going back for a month to visit family makes me jumpy, I really do hate it there. The entire experience is grating, the religious scolding, the stares, the glares, the homophobia from every angle. I have been to the south at least twice a year every year since I was
born, I lived there for four months, I know the south.
I know the south, and I know I dont want to live there.
So get the fuck off my back.
if you'll forgive an extreme answer, that a jew in 1942 shouldnt have a problem moving to Germany, because, hey, not all Nazis are anti-semitic, and just because it's state policy that you should die, and the majority of people either agree or turn a blind eye,
Still Godwin'd. :headshake
Btw, how exactly are people picking your sexual preference off just by sight? I'm assuming you aren't bringing a boyfriend down for the trip...
I thought sexual no-preference was the issue?
Srsly, Ib, now you like the look of Marlboro (allthat $$ and they couldn't afford the -ugh to stop it sounding like a brand of fags ....oh wait.....)
anyhoo, now use that as a search tool.
Still Godwin'd. :headshake
Btw, how exactly are people picking your sexual preference off just by sight? I'm assuming you aren't bringing a boyfriend down for the trip...
Well no, but the rainbows, tight jeans, long hair, and generally fairly feminine persona either tips them off that I'm a dayum derty faggot or a sissy little girly-boy.
I don't get you guys' argument. There are some liberals down south, so its not a conservative society, and I'd love it there... and there are some conservatives in Vermont, so it is a conservative society, so I would hate it there?
No no, I'm saying you're not going to love or hate either
geographical place. 100% of your college experience is the other students, the quality of your professors, the coursework you choose... basically anything outside a one-mile radius from the campus will be completely irrelevant to you for four-plus years. If you end up going to Marlboro I'm sure you will really like it there. But it will be because it's Marlboro, not because it's in the state of Vermont.
strike period add comma add dumbass
No no, I'm saying you're not going to love or hate either geographical place. 100% of your college experience is the other students, the quality of your professors, the coursework you choose... basically anything outside a one-mile radius from the campus will be completely irrelevant to you for four-plus years. If you end up going to Marlboro I'm sure you will really like it there. But it will be because it's Marlboro, not because it's in the state of Vermont.
Well said, agreed completely. If I went to NYU it would be a great experience (I would imagine) not because I hate riding the subway but because of everything Clodfobble said above!
I'm going to say the opposite, actually. All of my college experience that I consider important was from the surrounding community, not just the school itself. Maybe that's just me.
What college did you go to?
University of Iowa. Super Awesome.
Get off Ibram's case why don't you? He's been in the south enough to know he doesn't want to live there, so why do you try to change his mind?
College can be and usually is a life changing experience. Why make it harder than it has to be? Sure it's good to step out of your comfort zone occasionally and find something in common with people you think you wouldn't have anything to share with. However, to do that properly most people would need a comfort zone to start with. Seems to me, Ibram's been an outsider for most of his life (many of us are). Why do you want to deny him a chance to find a "home"?
Getting Dad to pony up may be an issue though...
No kidding. My jaw dropped when I saw the price tag. But I notice that most students there get financial aid, and the average is $10K, so maybe he can get some too.
College is a place to learn to think, not to dig in. It's a time to stretch and be stretched. To try on all kinds of ideas, including reaching to understand the ones you don't agree with.
Nah, that's what the Cellar is for. ;)
Besides, Ibram has already been exposed to much more than most kids his age. In real life and also here. He's been around the world. I assume his classmates in high school are mostly conservative military brats. He's in a conservative country. Has a conservative dad. Here on the Cellar, he's been exposed to a motley group of individuals with differing ideas. He's been forcefully challenged more than once.
After all the exposure to different ideas he's had so far in his life, and with his feelings of being an outsider, I think finding an insular home can be a good thing.
At a minimum, now he has a concrete idea of how different schools out there have different personalities. That's what he should be looking at.
The idea that a vast tract of land, comprising half of the entire nation, has a distinct, mandatory, political attitude, still hasn't been satisfactorily explained. It's been tip-toed around, and dealt with peripherally, but still, there it is, as the (faulty) basis for someone's whole argument.
Ibram, ultimately, you'll go where you feel comfortable. I have a sneaking suspicion that your constitution may well not be up to wintering in New England, since you've spent so much time in more temperate climes. Everybody being essentially the same as you, while initially comforting, gets really boring after a very short while. Nearly any campus (except say Grove City College or Liberty University) is going to give you a core of people that you'll end up hanging out with because of your similarities, but your differences are really what's important.
Funny story about Grove City ... my best liberal self-proclaimed extreme lefty friend went to college there.
Why? Not because they had the academic program he wanted.
Not because he wanted to go to a school with strong, conservative, Christian Values.
Not because he was an Atheist and wanted to shake up people with strong, conservative, Christian Values.
No, the reason he chose Grove City was ... at the time the school had the highest female to male student ratio in the entire country, and he knew that even with the emphasis on strong Christian Values he was going to get laid, and laid plentifully.
The plan worked.
He also ended up meeting his wife.
Who remains a Christian, while he is happily Atheist.
They have remained married for over thirty years.
The idea that a vast tract of land, comprising half of the entire nation, has a distinct, mandatory, political attitude, still hasn't been satisfactorily explained.
Or claimed. It has been strawmanned quite a bit, though.
North, south, east, or west, hicks will be hicks.
...still hasn't been satisfactorily explained.
Or claimed. It has been strawmanned quite a bit, though.
I do appreciate a variety of people. Don't get my wrong... for all my bluster, I love the south. The people are nice, generally, and boy do southerners know how to eat... but I just can't stand them, politically. And aiya, if I can't talk politics, I just can't live there.
Who are
them? Where is
there? What
is being claimed here? If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, why isn't it a duck? You tell me.
'Them' are conservatives, and there is the south, where there is both institutionalized (state) social conservatism and an undeniable conservative majority.
Look, Flint, drop it already. You arent going to make me want to go down south, nothing is, and all you are doing is pissing and moaning and whining over semantics. There is no reason, no reason for you to continue pitching a fucking fit, other than to make yourself feel better.
Drop it, dude. Lay off.
I don't care where you go. But it isn't semantics, it's sloppy thinking.
There are conservatives no matter where you go. You aren't obligated to hang out with them "down here" any more than you would be "up there" ...
Look, Flint, drop it already. You arent going to make me want to go down south, nothing is, and all you are doing is pissing and moaning and whining over semantics. There is no reason, no reason for you to continue pitching a fucking fit, other than to make yourself feel better.
Drop it, dude. Lay off.
If you want to avoid this sort of thing in the future, I'll let you in on a secret. If you'd started out by saying, "I'm really interested in schools up in the New England area, I just love the people I've met there and the atmosphere really suits me," instead of "Screw the south it sucks," no one would have thought twice about it.
I don't care where you go. But it isn't semantics, it's sloppy thinking.
There are conservatives no matter where you go. You aren't obligated to hang out with them "down here" any more than you would be "up there" ...
It's. Not. Sloppy. Thinking. No one claimed that the south was all conservative, just that it is more/mostly conservative. It votes conservative, it behaves conservative, and if it looks like a duck....
You're attacking where there's nothing to attack. If you're frustrated that by being in the south, you were 'labeled,' it's not really a big deal. Because everyone here knows that the south isn't ALL conservative. Hell, I live in Georgia and I'm probably one of the more liberal folks on these forums.
You're still missing the point, but I think repeating myself would be excessive.
Where you've gone wrong is in trying to read my mind, instead of simply reading what I've posted.
Hell, I live in Georgia and I'm probably one of the more liberal folks on these forums.
And is every second of your life spent in traumatized, repressed agony? Are you harassed by beligerent rednecks as soon as you step out the front door? No? Me neither. It must be some pretty sloppy thinking to assume that living in the South would be like that. What a difficult point.
Haha, well if that's your point than I agree. I have had some incidents, but it's no pervasive thing. Of course, I'm also white, straight, and have the military hair cut. Wonder what it would be like if I didn't.
Also, it should be pointed out that I have almost gotten a ticket for my truck for 'public indecency,' something that wouldn't have happened in, say, Iowa City.
Nice truck. It reminds me of how I used to go out wearing pajamas, leopard-print slippers, and a pink mohawk.
Memories...
/me hums those were the days.
Who are them? Where is there? What is being claimed here? If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, why isn't it a duck? You tell me.
You edited out what wasn't claimed, but was strawmanned:
The idea that a vast tract of land, comprising half of the entire nation, has a distinct, mandatory, political attitude, still hasn't been satisfactorily explained.
You're the one who added "mandatory", and you've been arguing as if someone else has made that claim. Try
prevailing.
I've addressed that. If it isn't prevailing in my house, and it isn't prevailing among my circle of firends, and it isn't prevailing among the places I like to hang out, then it isn't prevailing in my life. I refer to the original claim: that there are so many conservatives in the South that it would actually be impossible for a liberal-thinking college student to live here. That is patently ridiculous. [COLOR="White"]. . .[/COLOR]The "mandatory" bit was a play on how ridiculous it is.
So I saw your "impossible" in italics up there, and out of curiosity, I did a search of this thread for that word. Your post (and now mine too I suppose) is the only one in which it appears.
Nobody said that.
Do you have a thesaurus?
Didn't they die out with the rest of the dinosaurs?
I'm pretty sure the mockingbird is a descendant of the thesaurus.
bump. Update please - whats up with the college search?
I'm very very partial to Bennington College in Vermont, at this point. Marlboro is still high on my list, but if I can get in (and, more importantly, if i can afford it), Bennington's top of my list. On the other hand, if I decide to opt for a bigger school, then Towson University in Maryland's looking like my favorite of the bigger ones. UMD's just too big, and if i don't go to school in new england, I wanna go somewhere in maryland.
Sounds like you have a plan.
UMD is pretty big. We've hired a lot of people who have come out of there, and they have all been pretty good. Of course, we don't hire the bad ones, so I'm not sure that really means much.
Having read this thread for the first time today, I was actually going to recommend Bennington. I have a good friend who goes there, and loves it enough that he spent several months trying to get me to transfer. It's challenged him and changed him in wonderful ways, and it sounds like he is having a really rounded experience.
I know you're pretty much decided, and on better criteria than just one issue, but I read this today and thought of you anyway.
If you're hoping to locate a gay-friendly college where students and faculty will accept you as an out student, check out the latest issue of the Princeton Review, which provides a list of the most gay-friendly colleges in the United States.
According to responses from 110,000 students at 361 top colleges in the United States, New College of Florida ranks number one when it comes to having a campus community accepting of gay students. Located adjacent to the John Ringling Art Museum in Sarasota, New College also ranks as the number one most politically active school, and number one for having a near absence of intercollegiate sports.
Filling out the top five positions for gay-friendly schools are Macalester College of St. Paul, Minn.; Wellesley College in Massachusetts; Eugene Lang College/New School University in New York City; and Mount Holyoke College in Massachusetts. The best school for overall academic experience is Reed College in Portland, Oregon, but that school ranks 18th for being gay-friendly.
Bottoming the list as the least gay-friendly schools are Virginia's Hampden-Sydney College, the University of Notre Dame, and Baylor University in Waco, Texas.
Bottoming the list as the least gay-friendly schools
HAH! :lol:
...Baylor University in Waco, Texas.
Worth noting, it's a religious college. Not surprising that it's unsupportive of homosexuality.