Are you handy?
Do you like fixing things? Do you have a list of Honey-Dos? Does the prospect of a new project bring a smile to your face? Is it because you'll have the chance to get a new tool for the job? Do you have more time than money?
Would you rather hire out your projects? Are you a menace and a danger to yourself and others when it comes to tools? Do you usually hit the wrong nail?
I'm handy. I know others here that are too, footfootfoot, busterb, and zippyt come to mind, and I am certain there are others. I recently came across this continuum:
The Five Categories Of Handymanliness
Category 1: Basic Edition. Knows when to leave things alone, call somebody else. Can handle himself with screwdrivers, pliers, even a hammer.
Category 2: Going Places. Learning and yearning for more fix-and-repair projects. Looks at each repair as a challenge. May even dream of major things, like building a deck or garage. Probably the most dangerous type of handyman, as he believes everything is easy and within his grasp. Handle with caution to avoid bruised egos and missing digits. Best to work up from basement remodelings and garden sheds. Hey, nobody can start at the top.
Category 3: Building Up Skills. Has a good enough understanding of home improvements to be able to figure out new problems without dashing to the refrigerator, grabbing a beer and hiding behind the TV set. Has developed a reputation with friends and relatives as a good handyman. Knows when to seek advice on something complicated. Has remodeled a few rooms, basements, porches, but not quite ready for prime time.
Category 4: Bitten By The Bug. A compulsive handyman, he loves to tinker and repair things and sometimes fixes them better than new. Able to handle almost any project, but takes a lot of time to make sure everything is just right. Would never consider buying a new house because he would rather have the adventure of building his own or remodeling a fixer-upper. People routinely ask him for advice on home improvement matters. Has done some major projects, like building a garage, addition, or seriously participated in building a house. Has seen numerous ways to do things and is able to customize those experiences for each unusual situation. May have some work experience in construction or maintenance, or have considered those trades as possible employment.
Category 5: Para-Professional. Experienced enough that he can make money, possibly even make a living doing handyman or construction work. Knows not only how things are built, but knows how to build things quickly. Has a serious set of tools, many of which are time-saver tools (e.g. air nailers) and precision tools. Has seriously considered becoming a builder or contractor. Able to instruct others in home improvement topics.
On this scale, I am a solid 4.5, practically chewed to death by the bug. I *do* feel I can do a better job than average. Eventually. This has come up before in the Shade Tree Mechanic thread, and I treat the house the same way, basically.
My latest project is a new roof. I **HATE** working on ladders and on the roof. It's a long way down, and the sudden stop at the end and all that. I just hate it. But I'm a cheap bastard, and I do like working on stuff, and, well, the (remaining tatters of the) tarp on the roof just had to come down. The tarp served its purpose for the emergency coverage during the winter after our terrible windstorms, and although the roof wasn't leaking during our lovely July weather, it was time to make my move.
Being cheap, I opted for a re-roof instead of a tear off. The tear off, which it will need next time, would have meant a lot of additional expense in hauling the old roofs away, plus, since the original shake shingles were attached (in 1938) to what's called skip sheathing, I would also have to replace the decking with plywood or OSB. I was not ready for that level of involvement. In the course of researching this smaller scope project, I did find some nice answers and ideas about re-decking the roof one 4-foot wide swath across the rake at a time. That's much much more imaginable than stripping the whole thing off down to the bare rafters across the whole house and then decking it out. But I digress.
As I said, being cheap, I opted for roll roofing. I know this will be a short term temporary roof, say, five years or so. Plus, once you get going, you can really cover some territory with that stuff. So I went and bought enough for the south face of the roof, seven rolls. Plus two rolls of 15 pound roofing paper, five one pound boxes of two inch galvanized roofing nails (no five pound boxes in the two inch length), a big box of button nails for the roofing paper, a gallon of roofing asphalt cement and four one inch cheapo brushes--$250. I also hired my nephew for five hours, another $50.
On Sunday, we got all the materials home, then up on the roof. We tore off all the old tarp and battens, swept it very clean, rolled out the paper. We tacked the paper down with the button nails. That took all day. In the hot clear weather, the roof was so hot it was impossible to sit on or touch for more than a minute. By the end of the day, all the paper was installed and we returned to Earth with no injuries.
Monday, after work, I read about the next step. I had to cut nine inch strips from the roll, some fifty of them. Then the next three days after work I spent on the roof, nailing the strips to the edges of the roof. This represents a LOT of nailing. The instructions said to nail these strips to the roof with two rows of nails one inch in from the edges, four inches apart. I don't have a nailgun, this was all old skool hammertime, with the occasional holiday to the the nail on my left thumb. Ouch.
So last night, I finished the last strip and the whole perimeter is now "shingled" so to speak. This surface, very securely nailed to the roof, will be liberally coated with roofing cement, and the downstream edge of the strip of shingle. The upper edge is nailed to the roof, and it becomes the lower edge to be cemented to by the next higher course. The first strip of actual roofing material will be applied tonight. If I can get out of here, that is. More updates, and possibly a picture or two next time.
Very cool - I would put myself at a 3-ish. I am definitely into doing new things and love to see what others have done. Looking at their work inspires me.
All that work for 5 years?
Couldn't you design a roofing merit badge?
5 years at only $60/year. Not bad at all. Good job, BigV.
$60 and a hell of a lot of work he'll have to undo, then do over, when he's 5 years older. Doesn't sound efficient to me.
Obviously a lot of satisfaction goes along with the work for someone like BigV, though. Efficient? Maybe it is for him, what with the enjoyment factored into it. I couldn't say for sure, since I'd only be about a 1.2 on the scale.
Good job V. We have a roofer in the family, but since he's fallen off twice he doesn't often go up on roofs anymore... (broken pelvis smarts)
We need a new one ourselves. No re-roof here unfortunately, as jim has his heart set on copper (or at least metal) and we need new rafters on half the house. Not looking forward to that bill....
I'd rather work overtime to pay someone to do it. Then if the wife isn't happy with the finished product, it isn't my fault.
Hey V 5 years is great. Me, I might not be around then. What me worry?
Obviously a lot of satisfaction goes along with the work for someone like BigV, though. Efficient? Maybe it is for him, what with the enjoyment factored into it. I couldn't say for sure, since I'd only be about a 1.2 on the scale.
I got a great deal of satisfaction ripping off the old roof and putting down a new one. But anyone who's done a roof, no matter how much satisfaction, doesn't look forward to doing it again... unless they're a sadist.
Roofing is not fun. Why do you think roofers will lie, cheat and kill, to get a job in the Union Hall?
We just recently laid out $$$$ for the roof. (Not only the roof, but we had to get a couple overgrown trees pruned back before we could do that, and then we discovered that the roof of the back porch had separated from the house.....)
Anyway, I'm very good at assembling pieces.
If I have to change the pieces... like, say, drill a hole in the wall... cut a piece of wood down to size... etc. ... it's usually trouble. Big trouble.
We tore up the carpet in our living room and dining room last year. It was really crappy, and we had essentially been waiting for the kids to grow past the stage of messing it up. (We now know this will never pass.) We suspected there were very nice hardwood floors under, and there were. But now I need to put in some molding down at the baseboard. Should be interesting....
Go for a nautical theme and put rope along the baseboard.
Or I could go with a junkyard theme and put rotted garbage along the baseboard. Believe me, Mrs. Dallas would find either option equally palatable! :D
My roof and I just might go to court. Before time runs out, for storm repairs. Boy it sucks.
Believe me, Mrs. Dallas would find either option equally palatable! :D
Tell her Homeland security regulations require sand bags. By the way, if you're going to paint that molding, screwups and gaps can be filled with paintable butyl caulk.
@ Buster...That sucks, good luck.
Sandbags need to be accessorized with... oh, an M60 or an M1921 .30 cal, an M2 .50 cal looking suspiciously like overkill in the direction of world domination or something. ;)
Honestly, I'd put myself about a 1.9 to a rusty 2.2 tops, after doing some framing construction and drywall once upon a time. I do the monkey jobs under the car hood -- hose out, hose in, change and gap plugs -- that level.
For baseboard molding, get yourself a miter saw and its proper box. This special tool is designed to give accurate bevel cuts to fit molding into corners in a craftsmanlike way. It is very easy to use.
Good luck V. I'm of the do the roof once school. Steel is real and not that hard to work with.
I'm fairly handy for a chick. I can change my oil and brakes. I installed a hitch on my truck. I love power tools. All I want for Christmas is a
tool belt.
I was thinking that, too. smurf. I'm very mechanically inclined. I wish I had an avenue for that.
When I was in Junior High we had to take Home-ec. Cooking I was Ok. Sewing...I hated it. Got my first D in my life. We took shop for 9 weeks and I got an A+.
I love fixing things, putting things together, taking things apart. But I know nothing about cars, sadly.
Shawnee - It took me getting ripped of one time by Pep Boys for me to get pissed enough that I started asking every mechanically inclined male I knew to teach me about cars and maintenance. I really don't know that much, but I know enough that I can pretty much diagnose what the problem is, and if I have to take it to get fixed, I know which items on the estimate are bullshit when the mechanic comes back with a list of 18 things wrong with my truck.
And I love to cook. I'm much better at that than the mechanics.
The thing that works out for us is we "trade" stuff out kind of like bartering I guess. Also, any piping/plumbing work or heat/air work - I get the guys at work to do it. They come in handy:) Basic stuff is not totally beyond my comprehension, but if it's more than I can handle, I'm not shy about asking for help.
I suck at asking for help. Even something as simple as changing the water cooler. They'll go "get one of the guys to do that" and I go "I can do it myself." It can be a good or bad thing, depending on the situation. Not just guy/girl things, either. If I ran out of gas I'd walk to the gas station before I'd ask a coworker to take me.
Well, except my dad helps me with a lot! :) I learn from him too. I've worked with him in his shop and it's tons of fun.
Lower necklines and shorter hem lines would put you in a position where you wouldn't have to ask, just choose which volunteer.
When I could do the work I was a 5.
I miss working more than you can imagine.
When we have people doing stuff I can't watch. I used to build rooms onto our home, plumbing and wiring, etc.
Did steel work, boat docks, sea-walls, and other jobs. Ranch work gives one a lot of experience.
I wanted the new synth roof that looks like sheet steel. Lasts a long time and I like the look.
That or ceramic tile.
Ok, some pictures. Once again, I finished in the rain last night, and it has been raining all day. And rain in the forecast for the weekend.
Starting on the ground:
Pic 01, stairway to heaven.
Pic 02, the belt to keep me from winding up there (or the other place).
The roof was in bad shape when the windstorm finished it off. Here's a small section of what is now under all that roofing paper. As you can see, the previously exposed section of the three tab shingles is gone. Don't you just love the cute little staples holding down the back part of the shingle?
Pic 01: A few remaining old crappy shingles.
Pic 02: Wider view of papered roof, southern exposure, looking west.
The procedure for this kind of roofing is to cut several sections, nine inches wide, and nail them to the edge of the roof, in the area that will be covered by the roll roofing. These small sections are very securely nailed to the roof. The instructions call for two rows of nails, one inch in from the edges, spaced four inches apart. I generously overlapped these edge strips. This is the surface that will receive the asphalt roofing cement.
Pic 01: East rake, looking north.
Pic 02: Detail of edge strip, along ridge. Plenty of nails. Hand nailed nails.
As I'm making my way around the edge of the roof, in addition to not falling off, I have to make sure I've covered all the territory. The long straight edges of the ridge and the drip edge and the rake were pretty easy, but the section around the chimney required some fiddling. Also complicating this section was a small valley.
Pic 01: East rake and chimney section, before valley reinforcement.
Pic 02: Same view after valley reinforcement.
The valley needs more reinforcement because it will carry much more water in a given area.
Pic 01: Detail of valley reinforcement.
On Sunday, I cleaned the roof thoroughly, and we got the paper nailed down. Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday after work, say, 6 pm to 9 pm each night, was spent cutting and nailing the edge strips. Thursday night, I got to actually cover some roof with the roll material. I measured it out so that it started on the west eave and extended across the valley to the east. This was about 26 feet. I unrolled a new roll on the grass, measured it and cut it. I rerolled it and carried it to the roof. After a false start as to which way to position the roll (it does have an up and down edge in addition to the obvious top and bottom surface), I decided to save myself the trouble of throwing it down, climbing down, reversing the roll direction, and carrying it back up again just so I could start at the eave edge. So, I took a guess, and started the roll at the valley and unrolled toward the western eave.
My guess was pretty good. I was short by two inches. Good guess, but that meant that I now had a fifty pound 3x26 foot sheet of flexible material I needed to push/pull two inches to the west. And ZERO inches to the south--DOWNHILL. After some fiddlefartin around, I got it in place. The upper selvage edge is now secure, but the lower edge is free floating. I haven't applied the cement yet. I am thinking about waiting to have all the strips in place before I apply any cement.
I will also measure more carefully for the next rolls as I move uphill. It's 14 feet from the top edge of that bottom roll to the ridge. I think I'll make that seven two foot exposures, with a generous one foot overlap. That means I need to go get two more rolls from the store though.
Forecast for the weekend: Rain.
Pic 01: Starting from the valley, guessing how far the roll will extend.
Pic 02: Pretty good guess, within 2". In this picture, it's all nailed down after being adjusted westward. I didn't take any pictures of the adjustment work. I'm just thankful to be alive. It was a handful.
Not actually pictures of the roof, but pictures of the roof. The weather that makes the scary dangerous rain does make for pretty skies and pretty sunsets.
Pic 01: Downtown Seattle.
Pic 02: Mount Ranier.
Sky!
Pic 01: Pretty rainbow.
Pic 02: Pretty cloud.
no. I am not handy. On your scale, I'd probably be a minus-5--total klutz.
And I've tried. Repeatedly. I can read and follow instructions, no problem, but I don't have that instinctive handiness that some people have.
But I'm crafty and creative, so I just go with my strengths and pay people to do what I can't or won't do.
Like clean. :)
I was thinking that, too. smurf. I'm very mechanically inclined. I wish I had an avenue for that.
When I was in Junior High we had to take Home-ec. Cooking I was Ok. Sewing...I hated it. Got the first D of my life. We took shop for 9 weeks and I got an A+.
I love fixing things, putting things together, taking things apart. But I know nothing about cars, sadly.
Shit Shawnee - thats me.
At High School we had to take Cooking n Sewing. I'm a good cook and I like to cook....so an A there, but sewing.....big E.
Following year I swapped to Auto Prac, Sheet Metal and Woodwork. Back to my straight A's.
I'm pretty handy, I'd probably class myself as a 3-4.
I can weld, change spark plugs, brakes, have rebuilt a gearbox and helped my brothers do many changeover engines.
I can use a chainsaw, a router, a jigsaw etc
My mum is awesome, she has taught me all my home handy women skills.
I'm pretty geeky too, I just wired my house for wireless networking and my sound system now plays into all the rooms via wired speakers :)
My set top box has my arse kicked though...I think I will have to get a Antenna dude out to have a look see.
I SUCK at anything crafty....well.. I can and have done ceramics but can only seem to paint florally scenes though.
I'm trying to figure out why you nail down a shitload of pieces, along the straight edges, instead of using a 9 inch wide strip? It would be a hell of a lot easier to cut 9 inches off the end of a roll, plus no seams/joints.
Shit Shawnee . . .
now say that a bunch of times real fast!
I'm trying to figure out why you nail down a shitload of pieces, along the straight edges, instead of using a 9 inch wide strip? It would be a hell of a lot easier to cut 9 inches off the end of a roll, plus no seams/joints.
Are you talking about the valley reinforcement? The overlapping pieces make it stronger, where the run-off is heaviest. The seams are okay, since they go downward with the water flow.
No, I'm talking about the edges. There is no reason that couldn't be a 9 inch wide strip.
I think I see what you're saying...except that trying to nail down a long strip like that would be a pain. You'd have to make sure it stays straight along the edge as you go. The asphalt will cover the seams of the pieces.
Not at all, nail one end straighten it out and nail the other end. Then just nail on down the line, piece of cake.
LOL bruce you can't do that, you have to make sure it's tight all the way down.
That's why he has to nail it down the line, two rows of nails, one inch in from the edges, spaced four inches apart. What the hell difference does it make if it's one piece.
It's easier to align if it's in smaller pieces!
C'mon, you build stuff--you know it's true.
No it is not. You can't tell me it's easier to align a dozen short pieces of anything than one long one. Without a chalk line or string line it's not going to be straight anyway. The strip going on top is one piece which will make any unevenness is the bottom course look like shit.
Okay, that's the problem--you're worried about the way it's going to look, which I can understand in your line of work. In the case of a roof, it has to be very functional and long-wearing, i.e. tight and sealed.
Handy?
Hitting a bound girl with it? noo.........
Wait what?...:apimp:
Well, it sure looks functional.
Crude should be a synonym for functional.
Wait, you use this to keep the squids in line?
Okay, that's the problem--you're worried about the way it's going to look, which I can understand in your line of work. In the case of a roof, it has to be very functional and long-wearing, i.e. tight and sealed.
A long piece of roll roofing is not like fabric, it's like a wide, thin board. It can roll and flex, and it can twist, but it can't change it's rectangular shape, unless it's very, very hot. Rolled out flat, it has to be straight... like the edge of the roof. The only way you can make it crooked, is to cut it up in a bunch of short pieces.
If the top layer (straight), and the bottom layer (not straight), don't match, being cemented it will seal out wind driven water and ice damns. But it will make a weaker edge that will deteriorate much faster.
The edges can be made to match, using care, with either method. But using a single piece is faster and easier.
R U SQUIDDIN'!!?? I know I'm Squiddin'! :apimp:
I seriously....groaned out loud....GOL I guess?
The pictures of my project would be much less interesting than BigV's, so I won't be posting any.
Over the weekend, I installed a bathroom vent fan in a small bathroom that had none before.
This meant:
1. Putting a new circuit breaker into an empty slot in the panel, running the romex to the 1st floor bathroom wall where I installed a GFCI receptacle and a switch (had to fish the wire for this part,) then running it back down into the basement and up the open wall where I'll be re-tiling a shower and into the open ceiling above that gutted shower. The fan will be GFCI protected.
2. Pulling out the ladder and cutting a hole in the second story exterior wall for the vent hood. Caulk around the hole, slide the hood in, and screw it tight.
3. Crawling around in the hot very cramped nasty eaves to get the flexible ductwork installed and nice and straight. This was a major pain, as a bunch of loose fill insulation had fallen down into the eaves from the attic and I didn't want to stir it up too much. I got a nasty cramp in one leg while I was all contorted trying to tighten up the clamp holding the duct to the hood.
4. Install the fan between the ceiling joists, connect the ductwork to the fan. This actually took a fair amount of time as I had to shim the joists to account for the new drywall ceiling I'll need to install.
5. Wire up the fan to the romex I installed earlier.
6. Try to act all nonchalant when the damn thing worked on the first test.
7. Clean up.
I am crafty, but not handy, unless you count being able to substitute a bunch of linked paperclips for the ball chain that's in the toilet tank ...
Sure, you guys install roofs and air vents and crap, but I creatively reattached Barbie's legs while retaining functionality.
...I creatively reattached Barbie's legs while retaining functionality.
I used to make Transformers out of Legos. The three-way kind, IE plane/tank/robot.
I had a ton of house parts, so I made Transformers that became houses. Sucks to be them.
I also made little Gobot-types out of paper, and I still have a couple of them.
As for the original question, I've put a soap tray back into the shower wall after I knocked it out, but I'm leery of anything major. I'm not sure what percentage of that leery is laziness, though.
I am crafty, but not handy, unless you count being able to substitute a bunch of linked paperclips for the ball chain that's in the toilet tank ...
Watch out they rust pretty quickly - been there done that.
Sure, you guys install roofs and air vents and crap, but I creatively reattached Barbie's legs while retaining functionality.
How did you do that??!
Rubber bands, a little dexterity, and a lot of patience.
But now I need to put in some molding down at the baseboard. Should be interesting....
I've done worse. (Only half the dining room so far... we were moving stuff around to accommodate a new china cabinet, and it seemed silly to not do it while the space was empty.)
OK handy people - I have finished the kitchen, front window, pergo flooring in the dining area, replaced 6 doors, skim coated the entire downstairs and the painting has commenced. (Pics to folow if I can figure out the camera) My question is that I'm thinking of installing a vent fan in the attic. The one that goes out the roof. I'm fine indoors, but cutting a hole in my roof scares the hell outta me. Any help, suggestions tips and so on?
My question is that I'm thinking of installing a vent fan in the attic. The one that goes out the roof. I'm fine indoors, but cutting a hole in my roof scares the hell outta me. Any help, suggestions tips and so on?
Why a roof fan? Is this to ventilate the attic to reduce cooling costs? Or is this to vent a bathroom, or kitchen stove, etc.?
Why a roof fan? Is this to ventilate the attic to reduce cooling costs? Or is this to vent a bathroom, or kitchen stove, etc.?
Attic ventilation - Its been a big help to a lot of neighbors while saving money and all too - so I'm thinkin about it.
Are you sure a roof fan is your only/the best option?
In many cases, putting in soffit vents and a ridge vent for passive air circulation is more than enough and then you don't have the electricity charges later. The hot air rises and goes out the ridge and is replaced by cool air drawn into the
soffits. The beauty of
a ridge vent is that even though you are cutting a long slot at the peak of the roof, there is very little water to deal with at the peak. So you just nail or screw the ridge vent down. You don't need to worry about flashing around the opening.
Some are even low profile so you don't notice them.
If you check out building science's
web site, they have a lot of detailed information on the best way to ventilate an attic. They believe in soffit vents and ridge vents. I don't know where you live, but they have lots of
different models for the best way to build houses in various locations.
Here's an example for a house in Charlotte, N.C.
Another option is to put
gable vents in the attic walls at the ends of the house. You don't really have to worry about water there either. You can put one in each end, and get cross breezes, or you can put
a fan in as well.
I don't know your house layout, or your location, but for my house, a
powered roof fan would be the last option. They are ugly, consume electricity, and you have to worry about flashing around them so they don't leak.
Don't forget that you need to put a vent somewhere else to let air into your attic to replace any air you try to blow out. If you don't, you can suck air from inside your home, and this is often replaced by air back drafting down your chimney. Carbon monoxide is a concern then.
I don't know about ridge vents, but the one really important thing with gable vents is to make sure you put window screening on the inside, no matter how narrow the slat openings are. Birds can and will get in, despite manufacturer's claims. But we found our gable vents to be very effective, once we screened them. :)
I don't know about ridge vents, but the one really important thing with gable vents is to make sure you put window screening on the inside, no matter how narrow the slat openings are. Birds can and will get in, despite manufacturer's claims. But we found our gable vents to be very effective, once we screened them. :)
Absolutely. We have the heavy gauge wire screens protecting our gable vents. squirrels were chewing through them, and birds were building nests, but the wire screen stopped that.
Another great Cellar thread!!!!
I have talked a ton of projects myself(
Here are some). Partly cause I am hard-headed and not to mention lack of extra funds to pay someone else to do the work. On the Handyman scale, I would put myself around 4.5......teetering on a 5.
I do have a hoard of tools and could do it for a living. I choose not to because I have other people that depend on me( 2 kids and a wife). If I was a single guy, I think I would be in some kind of construction trade. Im not knocking the construction trade, but it can get cut-throat
Wow - thanks glatt - I'm in the Philly suburbs, in a townhome (middle unit).I have soffit vents and ridge vents - The air just doesn't seem to move and its like 200 degrees up there - It is at least 20 degrees more than my neighbor who has a fan also. He says he saves about $200 a year since he got it - I have heard similar things from other neighbors as well.
Middle unit of a town home, huh? I guess that rules out gable vents.
Have you inspected the soffit vents? Are they blocked with insulation? If they are clear, then I guess a roof fan really is your best bet.
To be honest, this is the kind of thing I avoid. I've never cut a hole in my roof and flashed around it. I know they have those sticky rubber membranes for flashing around things like this, but I understand metal flashing is even better. Only problem with metal flashing is you need a metal break to bend it, and I'm not sure you can rent one. I'd probably use the sticky rubber membrane to seal things up, and then patch in the shingles.
Maybe somebody else will have better advice.
Couldn't you put a fan on the inside of the attic, pointed out through your existing vents? Like glatt, I too would be terrified to have anyone but a professional cut a hole in my roof.
I've installed fan vents, soooo easy. Just drill a hole for your SawzAll, cut the hole and drop it in, caulk and go.
The new, super-light, turbine (or rotary) vents are AWESOME for problem areas! They don't rust and don't need a lot of wind to work, the new bearing systems are slick.
I used to put them in in five min. and they save serious ducats.
Great now we all agree that cutting a whole in your roof is scary baaaaddd. OK, I'll go back into the attic and check all the soffits for good air flow. It would be great to have the vent fan, but because of money I can't pay for it to be done. There must be a way to get the air moving - thats what I think the real issue is. It is so stagnant up there its unreal. I feel like throwing a box fan up there just to move the air around. Do they even make fans for this type of installation? Could I set it on a timer somehow? If I could get the air to move that has got to help - no? The upstairs of my house is also at least 5 to 7 degrees warmer than the first floor - thats what I'm also trying to rectify. The return vents are fine - I already checked them.
**Oops - I posted this before I saw rk's post.**
I've installed fan vents, soooo easy. Just drill a hole for your SawzAll, cut the hole and drop it in, caulk and go.
I know you have done this and I haven't, but I would never trust caulk alone to keep a hole in my roof water tight. Flashing is needed.
Edit: Flashing around a fan, depending on the shape of the fan, will be much like
flashing around a skylight.OK, rk - So I go to Lowes, Buy the vent fan....and what else? I must need electrical and stuff and so on. Can you give me an idea so I can get a grasp of the overall scope in order to budget time and whatnot.
You can pm so this is not a total hijack. Speaking of which - does this move me up or down on the scale?
First off:
I DIDN'T DIE!!! YAY!
Now that I've let all the drama out of this episode, let's examine what did actually happen.
After rolling out the first course, I immediately faced the prospect of dealing with the valley. I read about different styles to handle this area, and the one that I decided on was called interwoven. Basically, the roofing material crosses the valley completely, then the next higher course is applied from the opposite side of the valley, and that is repeated until the valley is completely covered. The main benefits of this process as I see it are very complete coverage of the valley, multiple thicknesses of roofing material cover the area; and that the ends of each of the courses are all covered when woven together this way.
In the last picture of the roof, you can see I've rolled the long stretch along the gutter and up across the valley. The next course is higher up and is along the opposite side of the valley. It's just a short section and it too rolls from the eave across the valley. Then again along the long axis with another big roll.
Pic 01: Course number three just finishing. You can see the weaving effect beginning.
Pic 02: Close up of the finished edges of the start of the weaving.
More of the weaving.
Pic 01: Better wider shot of the valley weaving midway through (four courses in place). Notice the second course going from the upper right to the lower left has been trimmed flush with the uppermost edge of the third course. I don't know if this was a good idea or not, but it was neater. It didn't seem to me that the extra material would help since it was already underneath the uphill edge of the layer above, so I cut it.
In this picture you can also see my hillbilly MacGuyver tool bag-o-nails. The boxes were worthless. When they were dry, they tried to slide off the roof. When they were wet, they disintegrated and let all the nails slide off the roof individually. So I got a rag, folded a little pouch in it and "sewed/pinned" it up with a nail. Voila! The sag and the fabric were sufficiently rough and irregular that it just sat where it splat. I picked up the uphill corner and moved it each time.
Pic 02: Wide shot of three courses of weaving. Number 1--long course on left. Number 2--short course at the bottom. Number 3--long course on the right.
Course five's debut.
Pic 01: By following the regular plan to extend each course completely across the valley, course five reached the opposite lower ridge. I cemented it (not shown) and nailed it in place.
Pic 02: Valley shot, course four not visible. The valley is 90% covered at this point. I won't weave the next course, but just head straight uphill.
The lower 3/8 of the roof is covered now, and I'm above the level of the valley. It's all straight rolling now.
Pic 01: The first three rolls along the long axis of the roof. Looks pretty neat and tidy.
Pic 02: This is how these rolls all started (except the first cause I rolled it up backwards). I started out at the edge and tacked it into place and then began to unroll it in small increments, measuring and adjusting and tacking as I go.
These rolls are very heavy. They probably weigh 75 pounds. I was very very careful to keep the axis of the roll perpendicular to the slope of the roof. I needed to adjust the position of the roll so that I had a 12 inch overlap. This was a generous overlap, the instructions were for just four inches. If some's good, more's better, eh? Anyway, it made for a narrower exposed surface, 24 inches, and it looked nice. But I had to be careful to start the roll at the right "altitude" and to roll straight so I had even lines. I hesitate to use the word "level". I didn't use a level on this whole project. I have a long level, a four footer, but I didn't trust that I could have a level roof so I didn't bother. I also didn't have enough hands for another tool. I found this to be a problem when I began to cement the rolls down. But I digress.
I don't have the pinch strength to grip this roll and drag it uphill, so I used my foot. I bumped it into place, maybe a little low, then used my toe to ease it up to my mark. Then tack. Roll it out a little. Measure again. Tack a couple of nails again. Roll. Measure. Adjust. Tack. Repeat. Not surprisingly, the roll wanted to roll downhill. I found I had to lift it each time with my toe.
Pic 01: In position to lift the roll with my right foot.
Pic 02: Measuring my 12 inch overlap.
Here is the last roll to cross the valley. This material is pretty rigid. As you can see it does sag a little across the valley, but it doesn't drape like, say, satin.
Pic 01: Across the valley, before trimming and nailing.
Pic 02: The material can have "wrinkles". This is the result of a too long rollout before measuring again and having to make a large adjustment. I found some of these wrinkles on the lower edge like this one and on the upper nailed edge. It was surprisingly difficult to roll out this material straight. Sometimes, I went back and tore out the tacks between the wrinkle and the end and reajusted it without the wrinkle. Sometimes I just nailed the crap out of the bulge, hammering it into submission.
Coming up to the end of the last roll to cross the valley. This was a good stopping point for me.
Pic 01: Makeup!
Pic 02: I'm ready for my close up now!
The weatherman was right on target. Rain. This stuff is as slick as it looks, and I didn't die (!!!) but I don't know how I managed it. Basically, I sat down and scooted everywhere. I was quite wet by the time I was done.
Pic 01: Wet roof.
Pic 02: Lovely wet roof and no safety net.
Eventually, I got all the rolls rolled out and nailed down. They look all straight and purty, don't they? Even the valley looks good.
Pic 01: Wide shot of covered (but unfinished) roof.
Pic 02: Wide shot of functional if wrinkly valley.
So those edge strips I nailed to the roof? Here's where they get to do their job. I've rolled back the installed course and I'm preparing to cement the edge along the rake to the edge strips.
Pic 01: Edge strips.
Pic 02: Asphalt roofing cement.
This stuff is tar. Pitch. Asphalt. Black gold. Texas tea. Movie stars, swimming pools. Wait, sorry, back up. This stuff is really just tar. Goobery gooey **messy** stick tar. I had two grades of this stuff, #11 and #33. Grade #11 is "pourable". I guess. In warmer climes. With patience. Grade #33 is the consistency of old, cold Play-Dough. I mixed the two together and hawked a glob out there and then mashed it flat-ish. I repeated this process for the lower edges of all the strips.
Pic 01: Cementing down the eaves. (bringing in the sheaves, we shall go rejoicing, bringing in the sheaves)
Pic 02: Got to glue down the lower edge of the strip to keep the wind from lifting it up and tearing it off. You can easily see in this picture the residual moisture from where the upper course covered the lower one. This made for a nice guideline as to where to (and where not to) apply the cement.
It was twice as messy and eight times as dangerous and difficult as it looks. I don't think I did this part right.
I believe it is effective, but there's got to be a better way of applying this shit. As I said before, I didn't have enough hands for my tools at the rolling out stage, and adding a big can of tar and a trowel and a hammer and a ragbag of nails and the roll and the tape measure and don't fall off and kill yourself--too much.
But I think I made extra work for myself by not doing it in one pass. Lifting this strip is heavy, a hassle, and frankly, this stuff isn't made to be flexed and hassled this way. It sheds the mineral coating at best, and cracks and tears at worst. Bad idea.
I tried folding it up, and painting the lower surface, folding it up and painting the underside of the lifted layer. I built a little jig to hold up the strip (worthless). I tried reaching over and painting downhill, I tried moving below the strip and lifting it and holding it up with my back as I sat underneath it. This last one was a Bad Idea. I didn't like or need any "help" moving me towards the ground. No thank you.
Pic 01: Middle progress picture of best method. When I was above the valley, the whole strip could be flexed over, held with my ankles/calves, and I could paint/scoot/paint/scoot. Worked ok.
Pic 02: Do you see the straight edges of the courses? Do you see some light brown curving lines? They look like water stains, yes? Those lines are the piles of the mineral coating that flaked off when the strip was curled for cementing. Bad. Imagine a sheet covered with sand. Now lift one side of the sheet. The sand will flow dowhill and you're left with a drift / high water mark of sand. Same thing here.
A couple of small mistakes still visible after all my work.
Pic 01: A wrinkle that I didn't notice or didn't bother to rework. Too bad. It's a feature now. And that black blob? You guessed it. Tar. I **dropped** the trowel at one (only one) point. As it went skidding and cartwheeling toward the gutter, I managed to pin it with my downhill foot. Saved myself a round trip to the grass below, but I did leave a mark on the roof and on my work shoe. There are a couple of small thumbprints on the roof too from my gloved hands, but this one is the most noticeable.
Pic 02: The valley already has a crack in it. I will probably pave it over with some of that good old #33, forsaking form for function. It'll be dry, but highly visible. Maybe I'll sculpt it in the shape of a mole. Or my initials. Or something the squirrels and crows will find amusing.
WOW _ that looks like a ton of work and waaaay more than I could imagine tackling. Seems like you are doing a good job - congrats!
Very cool! Too bad about the crack. Otherwise, looks great!
Man, that's a lot of work. I've replaced a few missing shingles here and there, and going up on the roof to do work is a lot like doing work in outer space or under water. The simplest jobs are much more difficult when you are spending so much energy trying to stay alive. Not to mention trying to avoid getting yourself covered in tar.
And you took your camera up there too. Talk about complicating things. Did you take your good camera up there with all that tar splattering around and stuck to your hands, or an old obsolete one?
Buy stepping down the valley with strips, it's not smoothly supporting the overlap and any pressure will cause it to fail(crack). Good thing there are no goats on the roof.
Rather than risking life and limb, send the kids up and supervise from your neighbors upstairs window. Besides, if they fall off, you can make more.
You've got more balls than me, I put scaffold along the whole lower edge.
I'm very handy, got tha' crispy towel to prove it!
Hello friends!
Time to revisit this thread. What you've seen here represents the southern exposure of my roof. But the roof has a nearly identical north side, which I've been able to ignore, and an eastern exposure that can no longer be ignored. Just as sunburned as the old southern side. I have decided to take advantage of the Labor Day weekend and labor on the roof.
I got a late start today due to a combination of procrastination and rain. Finally I got up there and started the semi-tear off. Pictures to follow, I promise. I'm too pooped to offload and upload just now.
This stretch has a similar valley, and it's in shit shape. A couple of places I was able to see into the attic. Fucking fuck. I got 90% of the tear off done then my sister and my mom showed up. I went to dinner with them, then came home to find all of my motivation gone, completely gone!
Tomorrow, *I promise*, I'll finish the tear off, and get the paper nailed down, and the edges "shingled". xoB, I reread your remarks about the difference between nailing down a series of "shingles" versus a single or even two long strips. I think the original recipe that I followed was written for three tab shingles.... That would account for how they described how to reinforce the perimeter of the area to be roofed. I think the goal is to have an extra layer of roofing material around the very perimeter. I don't think it matters if it's shingled ever nine fucking inches. I'm going to cut strips across the long axis of the roll material, giving me 36" "shingles". That will cover the ground a LOT faster, and a lot straighter. I'll still overlap it but I think this will be just as effective and more efficient.
This new section will also need a metal valley. Or not. Shit, I don't know. I might just fill the channel with some rigid expanding foam and then interleave it like before. Otherwise I'm in for a lot of cutting and a lot of fiddly bits on the one side of the valley. Also new on this phase of the project will be the replacement is "hips". Convex sections of the roof that need to be covered. I'll figure this out tomorrow. I'm rapidly running out of gas. See you all tomorrow.
fuck me, a handy thread! how did I miss this. I'm building my woodshed right now, I rig up electrical stuff that hasn't been invented yet, I tear out load bearing walls cause I CAN, butt..... no time for this, I must read this thread, I'm way too excited.
Question:
Why did you bother to cut all those lapped valley strips rather than run a full width section down the valley? I guess you don't get ice dams in Seattle. Still, it seems like an awful lot of extra work.
I'd put a metal valley down if you get ice dams or loads of snow, or if the sheathing in the valley isn't very even. Over time the heat on the roof causes the roofing material to sag and it will eventually drop into any cavities or unsupported areas. One reason for metal valleys. But around here we use "IKO ice and water shield" on valleys, eaves, and rakes. Some folks cover their whole roofs with it. You could probably get away with just a strip of roll roofing on top of 30# felt.
Looks good.
Answer:
I bothered because that was how I was instructed by the wrapper on the roll. One full width section down the valley would have accomplished the same thing. There would have been minor differences, the number of thicknesses, a crack in one can't spontaneously migrate to a crack in the next unlike a single section, super extra wide for a strip vs narrower protection offered by the "shingles", etc. A trade off. The real answer to your good question is that at the time of this project, I'd had exactly zero roofing experience. This whole project was "by the book" PLUS my own compulsion to overengineeer stuff like this.
That valley will *never* leak. The old roof is still there (and it was intact when I put this new roof on), multiple interleaved shingled layers of roofing paper (#15 I think) plus the handmade valley shingles, plus the roll roofing material is overlapped perpendicularly across the whole valley, plus each parallel course overlaps the other by 12 inches, secured by the tar roofing adhesive. 'Cause that's just how I roll (out the roofing material).
In the next section, I did have some much more troublesome valley work. The pitches of the two roof sections were not the same, and on one section the pitch changes, causing it to both bend upward and curve to the side (like a chine on a boat in the transition between the side of the hull amidships as it approaches the bow). Additionally, shingles over this valley were rotten and the metal valley itself was rotten (daylight into the attic--very not good). You'll see in a bit how I dealt with this one, but I used a product that might be similar to your IKO material. I'm happy with the choice so far.
And thanks for the compliment!
The main ridge of my roof runs east-west. This means there is a very big southern exposure, reroofed in Aug 2007, chronicled here in earlier posts. And an equally large northern exposure that gets a LOT less sun, and is just as antique as the rest, but in less tragic condition. There is a third smaller section of the roof that slopes down from east to west, toward the street. This section should have been redone when I did the south side, but the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune conspired toward a different end.
So Labor Day of this year was my last best chance to fix this before I got in trouble this winter. Saturday and Sunday I spent in semi-tear off mode.
Pic 01: the view from the street. Nasty.
Pic 02: the view from the roof. Much worse than I thought. Silver lining: the more roof that has been eroded and corroded and irradiated away, the less I have to tear off, right? I'm really late, but not too late. I hope.
Also in pic 02 you can get a better feel for the more complicated shape of this section of the roof. This picture is taken from the ladder at the southeast corner of the house, looking to the north. The horizontal hip is over the dining room, which is over the garage. The two slanted hips point to the corners of the dining room. The wide flatter area in the foreground is over the living room.
I have been diligently tearing off the exposed parts of the old shingles. This leaves half the shingle on the roof. The half that stays behind is the stapled to the roof half, the half that hasn't seen any daylight until now. This is how I made the surface "smooth" in preparation for the new roof. It was dirty work and I made a big mess as I tossed the broken shingles down off the roof onto the grass, the sidewalk, the steps, the junipers, the driveway, the gutters (for all the foul tips).
Pic 01: Here is my helper, SonofV, bringing me the power cord. Power cord for what, you ask?
Pic 02: The power cord to run the leaf blower, of course. I *KNOW* I got some strange looks from the folks walking their dogs who looked up to see me hosing down the roof with a jetstream of loud air. But that sand is really, *really* slick on the slanted surface of the roof, and a hundred times worse on the tarpaper to come. I was very diligent about keeping it "clean". Here you can see what I've revealed from the tear off, and my push broom and my power broom. Looks better already, doesn't it?
This section of the roof has a valley. Because of the geometry of the roof, the valley curves in two directions, upward and to the left when viewed from the uphill side. Because of this, I could not use a single piece of metal. I had to piece together a valley from individual pieces.
Pic 01: The original (now cleaned up) valley. It was in shit shape. The metal that was at the bottom paper thin, very fragile, torn and broken in many places and I could see into the attic. Not good. This pic is looking uphill at a section of the straightest part of the valley.
Pic 02: Here you can see a couple of the sections. They are galvanized steel, twelve inches square, bent into a 90 degree vee. I took one edge and pushed it under as much of the shingles I could then lifted the shingles on the other side and pushed the other edge under them. I was unconcerned about deforming the metal. The vee stayed intact in all of them, and that was the important part. Also important was the need to start at the lowest part of the valley, and shingle them as I worked my way uphill. I overlapped them by a couple inches each. I continued this process all the way up to the top of the valley.
I don't think I've ever seen shingles that bad on a house before. Was the roof leaking?
My grandfather-in-law had shingles worse than that, but they were on his stomach.
I don't think I've ever seen shingles that bad on a house before. Was the roof leaking?
Only when it rained.
(rimshot)
I don't think I've ever seen shingles that bad on a house before. Was the roof leaking?
No, I don't think so. I haven't seen any evidence of leaking, but then I didn't actually go into that very low clearance section of the attic to see. It certainly is possible. At the valley, it is higher in the attic, but I still haven't checked. My denial remains intact, even if the roof in this section is not.
The shingles are (were) in terrible shape. But a lot of the decay has taken place in the last three years. If you go back and look at posts 28, 29 and 82, you can see a bit of this part of the roof. The shingles were definitely old then, but not nearly as bad as they were two weeks ago.
Also, haha to SN. Right you are, my friend.
Also, to SN, xoB and others, this site,
HammerZone, better living through handy-man-lyness, was extremely instructive to me when I did the first phase of this project. I re-found the website when I followed up on IKO ice and water shield.
Also, regarding the edge strips, I think this is the best way to do it. Because if I was cutting very long strips, the length of the house, then I have a much bigger handful to manage up on the roof. Plus, think about where I'd cut them from--nine inches off the width of how many feet of a whole roll? Where would I cut the next long strip from? From the end of that cut? Or the next nine inches of width? What if the two sections were not the same length? Now I have a stair step edge on the roll. And how much will be usable after I make these long strips? How much wastage will there be?
With cuts nine inches wide off the end of the roll, I'm always going to have the rest of the roll to work with, whether I need to cut another nine inch wide strip or I need to roll out the material to cover the area of the roof. Just some thoughts.
We are going to re-roof my daughters home soon. Her roof has similar valleys and peaks.
In looking at your pics, your old shingles were in worse shape than hers. But we have been planning a complete tear-off.
I'm wondering if you had it to do over, would you do a complete tear-off, or what was the deciding factor for you to trim the old shingles as you did ?
Hi Lamplighter
There were a few factors that influenced my decisions as you've seen here. A tear off is a BIG DEAL. It's a lot more work. It's a LOT more trash. I learned that a roof can be re-roofed up to twice, for a total of three layers/roofs. I'm at 3 1/2 roofs. In my case, a tear off would have taken longer and cost more and been much more difficult and much more work. Bleurgh.
But the killer was the fact that my original shake shingle roof was applied onto
skip sheathing. Do you know what this is? With the roofing material off, the top of my house would look like it was covered with latticework. If I took it down that far, I would have had to put plywood decking onto the roof if I wanted to use roll roofing or even three tab shingles, since that stuff won't work over the skip sheathing. That was just TOO MUCH to contemplate. I rely on the old roofs to be my "decking". The major downside to this strategy is that it is heavy. Cedar and two old three tab rooves under the roll roofing is heavy. I am hoping it's not too heavy. We get about the same amount of snow load as you do, so I think/hope I'll be ok.
A tear off is a good, complete way to do things. But I wasn't prepared for job that big.
Big, that explains a lot.
I do know what you mean about the "lattice" sheeting and the extra work of putting down plywood. Ugh.
My daughter's place already has plywood sheeting and only one layer of 3-tabs.
I helped with a tear-off of a church roof many years ago, and it was a lot of work.
But with that special tool from hardware store I'm hoping it won't be quite as bad.
We probably will go ahead with the tear-off because trimming all of those (>30 yr)
old tiles seems slower and overwhelming handwork.
I'll let you know how it goes.
V, Be sure you sell that house long before it needs a new roof. And mum's the word.
3 1/2 layers is an aweful job, but there are companies back east (I'd bet there are companies where you live) that just do tear offs. One day. Done, clean, debris removed. you are ready to go.
My BIL looked into it and it was almost as cheap as the cost of a dumpster and hiring one guy to help him.
Come On V !!!
Put yer big boy Pants on ,
Knutt up and strip ALL that half Assed Shit OFFFFFFFF !!
deck it and Roof it !!!
Dont band Aid what Needs fixing !!!
I Know its a Pain in the ass , ( so's a drip at 2am in the winter )
And Costs more $$$ than you want ,
But it will add to the Value of yer house
And be Less of a Pain int the Ass in the long run .
I'll call you Zippy, next time I'm waffling about whether to do a job right!
Watching, with much interest. Ain't never gonna be a roofer, but time was I hung some rock. Dusty sort of work.
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