Horrifying gang rape & assault on mother & son
I don't know if I've ever been so horrified by what happened in an area so close to home. I had to post this.
I'd like to know your thoughts on trying these "boys" as adults versus juveniles.
Also, I don't know where to even begin with the psychological issues the victims will have to contend with for the rest of their lives...
[SIZE="4"]Police arrest 3rd teen in rape[/SIZE]
Friday, July 13, 2007
WEST PALM BEACH — A third teenage suspect has been linked by a fingerprint to the vicious attack on a Dunbar Village woman and her 12-year-old son, during which the woman was gang-raped by as many as 10 school-aged assailants and forced to have sex with her son.
Police arrested Jakaris Taylor, 15, Thursday morning at his mother's apartment in the dilapidated housing project on charges that included armed sexual battery by multiple perpetrators, home invasion robbery with a firearm and wearing a mask while committing an offense.
"I'm just too upset ," said his sobbing mother, Jacqueline Minor, 32, after the arrest. "I can't deal with it."
The arrest of Taylor, who records indicate was a student at Oak Grove Academy, came one week after the arrest of Nathan Walker, 16, and nine days after the arrest of Avion Lawson, 14, whose DNA was found in a condom at the victims' home, police said.
Police said Lawson confessed to participating in the June 18 attack but Walker has not.
Taylor, who was first interviewed by police two days after the attack, initially denied involvement. He gave two additional statements in which he again denied any role, detectives said.
But when a crime scene investigator confirmed Thursday that Taylor's fingerprint was found inside the victims' home - near those of the other suspects - detectives arrested him.
He was picked up just as he was about to go to class at summer school, a family friend said.
Taylor admitted he was at the scene but later refused to speak about the case, detectives said. Like Walker and Lawson, Taylor's case is expected to be referred to a grand jury to ensure adult prison sentences if the boys are convicted.
According to police, the assailants tricked the woman into opening her door by saying her tires were flat, then forced her back into her home.
They allegedly raped her repeatedly, smashed a plate over her son's head, poured household chemicals into his eyes and forced them at gunpoint to have sex with each other. Friends say both are still in physical pain from their injuries.
The 35-year-old and her son moved out of Dunbar Village and have not told friends or relatives where they are staying. The woman is afraid because her attackers said they would find her and set her on fire if she told police what they did, her brother said.
The woman's father said the attackers poured ammonia on his daughter, a suffocating chemical whose gases alone can burn the eyes and lungs, in an attempt to destroy DNA evidence.
Family members said the boy now can see, though excruciating pain remains. Two days after the attack, the boy was immobile in a hospital bed, a 1 1/2 '-inch wound stitched across the top left of his skull and bandages covering both eyes.
The attackers did not seem to know the victims, who kept to themselves because the mother was worried that the neighborhood was unsafe for her son, police said.
Taylor, wearing dark green shorts and a black Michael Jordan T-shirt, smiled at the cameras outside the police station when reporters asked him whether he was guilty.
He was transferred to the Juvenile Assessment Center and will make his first court appearance today.
The arrest left Taylor's family heartbroken.
"I don't understand, I don't believe this," said Taylor's grandmother, Angela Bell, a few minutes after she heard about the arrest. "I'm so sick about this."
Police were able to match Taylor's fingerprint from the scene with prints already in their system from a Jan. 6 arrest on charges of aggravated assault and robbery by sudden snatching in West Palm Beach.
Police said he was among five assailants who attacked two men at Datura Street and Rosemary Avenue, knocking them off their bicycles as they rode home from work.
Minor, his mother, sent him to live with his grandmother on Windsor Avenue so he would stay out of trouble, said a family friend who spent Thursday by Minor's side but refused to give her name.
Taylor is an eighth-grader at Oak Grove, a school in Riviera Beach for students with behavioral problems, according to the family friend. He played youth league football and basketball and was known as a joker who apparently got "hooked up with the wrong crowd in Dunbar," the friend said. His family, including a younger brother and sister, moved to Dunbar from Boynton Beach about three years ago, she continued.
Having heard the police were asking about her son, Minor initially brought Taylor to the police station herself, the friend said. Minor has cooperated since the beginning of the investigation, police said.
Minor has been arrested eight times in Florida on charges that include fraud and making a false statement for public aid.
Taylor's father is deceased, the family friend said.
Investigators are awaiting results of tests done on other evidence from the crime scene.
"We're hoping more of it will come back and link to additional suspects," police spokesman Ted White said. "We've had investigators working 10, 15 and sometimes 20 hours a day, looking through evidence, waiting for it to come back and lead us to more arrests.
"It's been paying off."
After the attack, the mother and son walked several miles to the closest hospital for help. Not a single neighbor, some of whom HAD to have heard the attack through the paper-thin walls of the Section 8 housing, intervened or contacted authorities to stop it. All suspects are believed to be teenagers; the first one arrested was in
middle school.
Appalling crime. On whether they should be tried as juveniles: if they are juveniles, then they should be tried as juveniles, regardless of the nature of their crime. That they committed a horrific crime does not in any way change their age and likely level of mental/emotional development.
this truly is a heinous crime - i don't know what your laws are concerning juveniles - my opinion would be to hold them in a facility for their age and when they become "adult" age - prosecute them as such. i know some people like to claim "products of their surroundings", but they still had a choice to make. it was the wrong choice.
i personally think they should lock all the guys who did it away until the 12yr old son turns 18, then they should let him execute each and every one of them.
this truly is a heinous crime - i don't know what your laws are concerning juveniles - my opinion would be to hold them in a facility for their age and when they become "adult" age - prosecute them as such.
Personally, I don't think anybody should be tried as an adult for a crime they committed whilst still juvenile.
How about this, which I forgot to include in the original post:
What about the neighbors who heard what was going on and failed to contact authorities? I can understand not wanting to physically intervene for of one's own personal safety, but anyone can call the authorities anonymously. Considering this is a crime-ridden area, and that the authorities were called to that particular area twice daily on average, then it wouldn't have been out of the ordinary to have a police presence show up.
Personally, I don't think anybody should be tried as an adult for a crime they committed whilst still juvenile.
i understand that thought - what really gets me though is this was an adult crime - this is not something that probation is going to cure and not all prisons are a cure either, but for extreme crimes sometimes extreme punishments are needed.
There's a whole hell of a lot more going on than a little old criminal behavior. They didn't steal penny candy. Their age became irrelevant after committing such atrocities. It's not like: well, at 18 they magically would have "known better" but since they were only kids they didn't know the magnitude of the situation.
Try them as you would try an 18 year old who committed such crimes.
It's a serious crime for sure, but if you are going to have a distinction in the law between kids and adults, you should always apply that distinction, regardless of the crime. If you don't like it, then get rid of the distinction in the first place.
If there is a legitimate reason for the distinction, that reason doesn't go away just because the crime is a more serious one.
i understand that thought - what really gets me though is this was an adult crime - this is not something that probation is going to cure and not all prisons are a cure either, but for extreme crimes sometimes extreme punishments are needed.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if one or more of these boys is still too dangerous to be allowed out into society when they are in their forties. I don't actually think extreme punishments help the situation at all. Most important issue for me, is removing dangerous people from mainstream society and keeping them incarcerated until they have been reformed enough to pose no threat.
It's not like: well, at 18 they magically would have "known better" but since they were only kids they didn't know the magnitude of the situation.
It's not about them 'knowing better' or 'not knowing better'. It's about their understanding of the magnitude of their actions. It's about their understanding of the magnitude of the consequences of those actions. It's about the level of their ability to empathise with other human beings, which is undergoing a great deal of its development during those teenage years.
It's entirely possible that they could have got to eighteen and committed this crime, in which case they should be tried as an adult, because society can reasonably expect them to have fully developed the areas of the brain dealing with empathy and self restraint/censorship, by that age. Society can reasonably expect of them a level of understanding of the consequences of their actions appropriate for an adult.
They no doubt understand that what they did was wrong. They may well have some understanding of the consequences of their actions; but it is an understanding appropriate to the brain development of a teenager and that is different to the understanding which an adult has. That doesn't mean they should 'get away with it'. It does, in my view, mean that they should be treated as juveniles within that process and their punishment and/or rehabilitation should take that into account.
It's not like: well, at 18 they magically would have "known better" but since they were only kids they didn't know the magnitude of the situation.
It's not about them 'knowing better' or 'not knowing better'. It's about their understanding of the magnitude of their actions.
Which they did. Sorry, I don't buy that they just weren't "developed" enough to understand. 15, 18, 21. I didn't draw the arbitrary lines in the sand, but I sure know when those lines don't matter.
Geez peeps, they made the mom and son have sex! But I guess they didn't understand. Did their parents not have the Howard Cunningham sex talk with them?
Taylor, wearing dark green shorts and a black Michael Jordan T-shirt, smiled at the cameras outside the police station when reporters asked him whether he was guilty.
Nice kid, just misguided.
Perhaps they should have baked the kid.:right:
This thread seems really more to belong in Current Events than Home Base.
Yeah, Florida. What in the hell is wrong with the people in Florida?!? I didn't used to use generalized negative statements like that...but....I used to edit appeals cases for a publishing company, and I got a very good look at what the people of that great state do. I spent 4 months editing Florida, (and didn't put a dent in it) that's 10 volumes and a high production rate. By the time I was done I decided that Florida needs to just fall off the map. (I'm about to start cussing I think) This is actually average activity for the people in that fabulous state.....Numbers and numbers of rape/murders etc. etc. (you don't even want to know the horrific details).... it should be considered a national crisis. Sometimes I would cry before I left the company parking lot. The judges opinions should have started looking more like evacuation plans. Worse has definitely happened there (a whole lot) and I think if someone actually called a spade a spade, the people of Florida would go on lock down and everyone would be separated from each other just for the general health and well being of the people of the United States. *knee jerk* *twitch* Smurf- read some Florida citators and it will alleviate your shock. Florida....get out of Florida.
The crimes committed are horrifying, of course. But what separates the lawless from the law-abiding is simply... the law. There is a line drawn in the sand regarding the difference between juveniles and adults, and I do believe that in order to keep the system working then you have to adhere to it.
Of course, they don't believe that in Iran:
Iran has the shameful status of being the world’s last official executioner(1) of child offenders – people convicted of crimes committed when they were under the age of 18. It also holds the macabre distinction of having executed more child offenders than any other country in the world since 1990, according to Amnesty International’s records.(2)
In many cases, child offenders under sentence of death in Iran are kept in prison until they reach 18 before execution. In this period, some win appeals against their conviction. Some have their sentence overturned on appeal and are freed after a retrial. Some are reprieved by the family of the victim in cases of qesas (retribution) crimes and are asked to pay diyeh instead. Some are executed.
Although executions of child offenders are few compared to the total number of executions in Iran, they highlight the government’s disregard for its commitments and obligations under international law, which prohibits in all circumstances the use of the death penalty for child offenders. The executions also gravely undermine the particular obligation that all states have relating to the protection of children – one of the most vulnerable groups in society.
I found that while looking for something else - I'm not suggesting that American justice compares to Iranian, it just interested me.
I wouldn't be at all surprised if one or more of these boys is still too dangerous to be allowed out into society when they are in their forties... Most important issue for me, is removing dangerous people from mainstream society and keeping them incarcerated until they have been reformed enough to pose no threat...
I think you hit the nail on the head with
removing dangerous people from mainstream society. I don't believe our prison system is reformatory in any way, shape or form. However, some people just don't belong in society. Britain had the right idea - throw all the criminals that can't function in society on an island somewhere far, far away. [SIZE="1"][Disclaimer: I love Australia, I don't think Aussies are criminals, and if I could vacation anywhere in the world, Australia is at the tops of my list.][/SIZE]
I don't buy that they just weren't "developed" enough to understand.
They were certainly "developed" enough to
(a) bring and wear condoms during the attack
(b) develop a plan of attack, which included 10 assailants
(c) bring and/or find guns
(d) use household chemicals to pour all over the bodies of the victims to erase DNA and other evidence
(e) and for God's sake, THEY MADE THE VICTIMS PARTAKE IN INCESTUAL ACTS AT GUNPOINT. Jesus fucking Christ!
My problem with drawing a line in the sand is that not every rule applies to every person. Our government and court system, lacking though it may be, was developed to address these kinds of issues. As an example, I know 2 brothers. 1 was mature enough to drive a vehicle at age 14. His brother is 17, and I don't think I'd trust that boy to help my 8 year old cross the street.
Maturity involves not just age, but other factors, like emotional/social/physical development, certainly socioeconomic factors play a part, and knowing the difference between right and wrong. At age 14, you know what rape and assault are, and you know they're wrong. Some of these kids have already been determined to have criminal records - and I will go out on a low and long limb here and say I will guarantee that most of these boys have criminal records already.
As far as I'm concerned - and as far as the court systems are also concerned apparently - these kids are perverts, too. Watching a young boy perform a sex act... who gets off (sexually or otherwise) on that kind of thing??? And with his mother??? I'll tell you who - the kind of people who are fucked in the head and don't belong in society where they can do this sort of thing.
Smurf- read some Florida citators and it will alleviate your shock.
yeah, I'm in the legal field... I see a lot... will still always be shocking to me, thought, that people can do such horrible things.
I was born and raised here, and I'm not like that, the people I know aren't like that. This is why I refuse to live in West Palm, and refuse to go there. I travel to Orlando for things I can get in West Palm just because it's West Palm - I'm beginning to think it's worse than Miami.
They were certainly "developed" enough to
(a) bring and wear condoms during the attack
(b) develop a plan of attack, which included 10 assailants
(c) bring and/or find guns
(d) use household chemicals to pour all over the bodies of the victims to erase DNA and other evidence
(e) and for God's sake, THEY MADE THE VICTIMS PARTAKE IN INCESTUAL ACTS AT GUNPOINT. Jesus fucking Christ!
What do any of those have to do with "developed"?
They had knowledge to know that what they were doing was wrong and illegal, or they wouldn't have tried to cover it up. If I committed a crime, I wouldn't know that ammonia would erase fingerprints and DNA evidence or whatever. That's because even though I'm twice the age of these little bastards, I'm less criminally "developed" than them.
Adulthood is more than attempting to avoid punishment. A five year old will try to avoid punishment. I still don't know whether ammonia will erase fingerprints or DNA (the article says "in an attempt to"), but it could probably be discovered pretty easily from Google or an episode of CSI.
yeah, I'm in the legal field... I see a lot... will still always be shocking to me, thought, that people can do such horrible things.
I was born and raised here, and I'm not like that, the people I know aren't like that. This is why I refuse to live in West Palm, and refuse to go there. I travel to Orlando for things I can get in West Palm just because it's West Palm - I'm beginning to think it's worse than Miami.
One of the major problems with WP is that it is so transient. It causes deep-seated and multi-leveled Issues with that area.
It is a HUGE strain on the infrastructure, leaving those that live there to live on the scraps, existing with crime, within a maze of walls, surrounded by the uber-rich who don't really interact with the actual community. They have a secluded community, within the community, with no trickle-down effect. Hell, most of them are only there a few weeks out of the year, so they have no residency issues, taxes, etc, that they need contribute other than property tax. Which goes into one of the most corrupt systems that one can imagine.
It reminds me a lot of Apartheid S Africa.
I read this the other day. I found this particularly disturbing:
"So a lady was raped. Big deal," resident Paticiea Matlock said with disgust. "There's too much other crime happening here."
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-07-10-gang-rape_N.htm
Fla. mother and son are attacked
WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. (AP) — Mother and son huddled together, battered and beaten, in the bathroom — sobbing, wondering why no one came to help.
Surely the neighbors had heard their screams. The walls are thin, the screen doors flimsy in this violence-plagued housing project on the edge of downtown.
For three hours, the pair say, they endured sheer terror as the 35-year-old Haitian immigrant was raped and sodomized by up to 10 masked teenagers and her 12-year-old son was beaten in another room.
Then, mother and son were reunited to endure the unspeakable: At gunpoint, the woman was forced to perform oral sex on the boy, she later told a TV station.
Afterward, they were doused with household cleansers, perhaps in a haphazard attempt to scrub the crime scene, or maybe simply to torture the victims even more. The solutions burned the boy's eyes.
The thugs then fled, taking with them a couple of hundred dollars' worth of cash, jewelry and cellphones.
In the interview with WPTV, the mother described how she and her son sobbed in the bathroom, too shocked to move. Then, in the dark of night, they walked a mile to the hospital because they had no phone to call for help.
Two teenagers — a 14-year-old and a 16-year-old — have been arrested. Eight others are being sought.
Welcome to Dunbar Village, a place residents call hell.
"So a lady was raped. Big deal," resident Paticiea Matlock said with disgust. "There's too much other crime happening here."
Built in 1940 to house poor blacks in then-segregated West Palm Beach, Dunbar Village's 226 units sit just blocks from million-dollar condos on the Intracoastal Waterway. Billionaires lounge on beachfront property just a few miles away on Palm Beach.
The public housing project's one- and two-story barracks-style buildings are spread across 17 grassy, tree-lined acres surrounded by an 8-foot iron fence. The average rent is about $150 a month.
Almost 60% of the households in the area that includes Dunbar Village were below the poverty level in 2000, according to Census figures. Only 19% of the area's residents had high school degrees. About 9% of the adults were unemployed, nearly triple the state average.
Teenagers with gold-plated teeth wander the streets. Drug dealers hang out on nearby sidewalks. Trash bin lids are open. Flies hover over dirty diapers. Clothes dry on sagging lines.
Since the June 18 attack, police have increased patrols in the area, blocked off one entrance and will soon install surveillance cameras.
"It took this to make that happen?" Matlock, a 32-year-old single mother of three, snarled.
As in other blighted neighborhoods across the country where criminals seem to have free rein, residents here live in fear. Snitches get stitches, they say. Or worse.
"I try to be in my house no later than 7, and I don't come out," said Citoya Greenwood, 33, who lives in Dunbar with her 4-year-old daughter. "I don't even answer my door anymore." On the Fourth of July, "we didn't know if we was hearing gunshots or fireworks."
Avion Lawson, 14, and Nathan Walker, 16, will be charged as adults in the assault and gang rape, prosecutors said. They are jailed without bail.
Lawson's DNA was found in a condom at the crime scene, and he admitted involvement, authorities say. Police say Walker's palm print was discovered inside the home. He denies being there. His attorney says he will plead not guilty. Lawson's public defender did not return telephone messages.
Walker and Lawson did not live at Dunbar but visited often. Lawson stayed with his grandmother there. Walker came to hang out and play basketball. Dunbar has become the place to be for wayward black teens, residents and neighborhood kids say.
Walker and Lawson both grew up mostly fatherless, bouncing between homes. Walker's family sometimes lived in old cars or abandoned houses, said his mother, Ruby Nell Walker.
"We've never really had a real home," said Naporcha Walker, Nathan's 15-year-old sister.
He dropped out of school after spending three years in seventh grade. The family lives on food stamps and recently had to pawn their television and radio, Ruby Walker said.
"I just feel like he was at the wrong place at the wrong time. ... My son is not a rapist," she said.
Ruby Walker said she herself was raped twice, at ages 7 and 12. She said that just days before the Dunbar attack, someone tried to rape her again, and "my son came to me crying and said he wouldn't ever do that to anyone."
She has had her own problems with the law — at least nine arrests on charges such as disorderly conduct, aggravated assault and battery, according to state records.
Avion Lawson was a headstrong kid, never listening to his mother, said his cousin, Cassandra Ellis.
"I knew he was bad, but I never pictured him to be that type of bad," Ellis said. She said one traumatic experience may have scarred him — watching his older sister fatally stab a boyfriend.
"It was an accident. She killed her boyfriend. They was fighting, there was a knife," Ellis said. "He was there when it happened."
City officials are quick to note that neither Lawson nor Walker lived at Dunbar, and say they are doing their best to make the place safe.
As quickly as overhead lights can be replaced, they are shot out, so officials are now considering bulletproof lighting.
"Isn't that quite a commentary on what the situation is there?" said City Commissioner Molly Douglas, whose district includes part of Dunbar. "Dunbar Village is a hell hole. They shouldn't have to live in fear."
More officers are hitting the streets, but "I just bow my head sometimes and think we just couldn't possibly have enough officers ever to take care of all of this," Douglas said.
Laurel Robinson, head of the city's housing authority, said that up until about four years ago, the federal government provided the city with $160,000 a year for security in public housing projects, but Congress did away with the money.
"Every family housing project in the country has suffered because of it," she said.
The rape victim and her son have not returned to their apartment since the attack.
The woman fled Port-au-Prince, Haiti, with her son seven years ago in search of a better life. With no money, they landed in Dunbar. The two almost instantly became targets for crime, standing out as Haitians among the mostly American-born blacks in the housing project. Her car and the boy's bicycle were stolen. Their house was ransacked.
On the night of the attack, she was lured outside by a teenager who knocked on the door and said her car had a flat. Nine more teens, their faces shrouded with T-shirts, barged in, she told authorities. They brandished guns and demanded money, then went beyond the imaginable.
"I was so scared," the woman told WPTV. "Some of them had sex with me twice, some of them had sex with me three times. They're beating me up. They make me do those things over and over. The man with the big gun, he put the gun inside of me."
She said that when she was forced to perform oral sex on her own son, she told the boy: "I know you love me, and I love you, too."
Investigators say it is not clear exactly why the thugs picked her house.
The boy's sight has returned. Both mother and son are seeking counseling.
"I have to try and talk to him every day. He's so angry," the woman said. "He said we never should have moved to Dunbar Village."
God, that is so disturbing. Those kids are going to get whats coming to them. I want to know the intentions of this is. I'm guessing there was one or two ring leaders and all the rest followed but what the fuck is going on in those kid's minds?
"It took this to make that happen?" Matlock, a 32-year-old single mother of three, snarled.
I think this quote gives the most insight on the situation.
I agree with the idea that juveniles should be tried and sentenced as such, distinct from adults. But in my mind, there comes a point where the crime committed far overshadows the age of the offender. Like this case for example. Juveniles that with intent commit life threatening crimes, esp. of a sexual nature, should be tried as adult without hesitation. These crimes are far more serious than simple stealing, etc.
Which they did. Sorry, I don't buy that they just weren't "developed" enough to understand. 15, 18, 21. I didn't draw the arbitrary lines in the sand, but I sure know when those lines don't matter.
In all of my education classes (I'm pursuing a degree in special education/early childhood for those who don't know, which is probably close to everyone haha), something that is stressed throughout every class is that age
does not matter. Every child grows and develops personally and socially at different rates and at different stages. It is not a simple ladder. Using age to discriminate between juveniles and adults though convenient, shows its profound weakness and ineffectiveness in times like this. This runs into my unpopular opinion that our country needs to refocus on our public education system first and foremost and incorporate it, via various tests and standards that have to be met, into the two big stages of responsibility dictated by the government: turning 16 and being able to drive, and turning 18 and being called an "adult" and everything that comes with that age.
"And now back to your regularly scheduled broadcast"
God, that is so disturbing. Those kids are going to get whats coming to them. I want to know the intentions of this is. I'm guessing there was one or two ring leaders and all the rest followed but what the fuck is going on in those kid's minds?
I think this quote gives the most insight on the situation.
This is exactly what I was
talking about.
Once again you're criticizing what he didn't say. He said, "black males age 13 who have been raised on the streets and who have joined criminal gangs". As Clodfobble pointed out that could also apply to other races and probably the Hispanics in that situation outnumber the Blacks now. Insensitive, not PC, perhaps... but that doesn't make him racist.
I'm betting you have yet to confront one of these little bastards... believe me, they are scary.
Off with their heads and stick them on tall poles for all to see. Boo to you if you don't like it. They should never be allowed to victimize someone else.
Then we become what they are.
No difference.
That logic really only works with murderers, rkz. Last I checked, even the harshest criminal sentences don't amount to gang-raping them, pouring ammonia in their eyes, or forcing them to receive a blowjob from their mothers.
Then we become what they are.
No difference.
I think that it's pretty hard to force yourself on people if you don't have arms anymore, and if somehow that doesn't work you can just keep taking random limbs that have been identified in other crimes..............I'm willing to start a
rehabilitation center if anyone would like to invest. Shoot, I'd be willing to go non-profit for that.......Now RK do you think that makes me a mother rapsit?
:)
I'm betting they have character disorders, which are different from mental disorders. But since they have character disorders they are not mental cases and therefore possess normal human characteristics with just some major concerning flaws in their personalities.
A perfect example of underage sexual predators, except these boys are just that, boys.
No, they are much, much more than "just boys" They are scum, degenerates, rapists, sadists, torturers, thieves, lowlife mother fuckers that should never see the light of day again.
I'm betting they have character disorders, which are different from mental disorders. But since they have character disorders they are not mental cases and therefore possess normal human characteristics with just some major concerning flaws in their personalities.
A perfect example of underage sexual predators, except these boys are just that, boys.
Character Disorders? What is
that? I've never seen that in a diagnostics manual........maybe you have a newer version.:rolleyes:
Maybe you are referring to "personility disorders". Which is
also a
mental disorder. Maybe you are referring to organic vs. non- organic?
In keeping with your verbiage anyway....let's give you an example as to why your logic doesn't work:
1. I have a flaw in my personality because I procrastinate heavily. (true)
2. I have a flaw in my personality because I procrastinate heavily and gun rape someone in front of their son.
(false)
I have been trying to sort through my thoughts and feelings on this since yesterday morning. The extremity of this attack arouses terrible disgust and anger in me; my gut reaction is along the lines of "hang 'em." However, I can't allow wild emotion to dictate my response. As Dana, glatt, and SG said, the law is clear and I believe it must be followed. We have to protect society from vicious brutes, yet we must take care to remember the difference between justice and vegeance while doing so.
Then we become what they are.
No difference.
That logic really only works with murderers, rkz.
snip~Now RK do you think that makes me a mother rapsit?
I doubt rk meant it quite so literally as that. My blood boils and my skin crawls as I think about what these teens did. Their acts are unconscionable. However, I know that were I to employ extreme and violent means in dealing with them, I would become the very thing I hate. Lock them away to prevent a repeat attack? Yes. Kill or dismember them? I could not, in good conscience, act so similarly to how they have.
Exactly.
Employ the tactics of what you hate, become that thing, precisely that thing with NO difference.
I believe the boys who did this are a product of their environment and yes it is a shame.
But if a pitbull is raised to be vicious and it attacks someone, you don't just say "well he was a product of his evironment and maybe we can show him the error of his ways. Once an animal has committed an act this horrible, you put it down becuase it will do it again if it gets the chance.
And hopefully we can try to make places like that better so this won't happen again.
I have been trying to sort through my thoughts and feelings on this since yesterday morning. The extremity of this attack arouses terrible disgust and anger in me; my gut reaction is along the lines of "hang 'em." However, I can't allow wild emotion to dictate my response. As Dana, glatt, and SG said, the law is clear and I believe it must be followed. We have to protect society from vicious brutes, yet we must take care to remember the difference between justice and vegeance while doing so.
I doubt rk meant it quite so literally as that. My blood boils and my skin crawls as I think about what these teens did. Their acts are unconscionable. However, I know that were I to employ extreme and violent means in dealing with them, I would become the very thing I hate. Lock them away to prevent a repeat attack? Yes. Kill or dismember them? I could not, in good conscience, act so similarly to how they have.
Yeah, you can lock them up, let them sit around and glorify their actions with their new friends, and let them get out on good behavior after a couple of years........ I wonder what comes next? Maybe by then they will have matured enough to cover up their crimes more effectively and not get caught. Still up against the same little monsters...except (oh joy) a little older, stronger, and clever.
It's worse than murder, those people have to
live with what happened. Those little demons made sure of that didn't they? Why
didn't they kill them both?
Because they knew it would be too horrible for anyone to live with. :(
So of course, that's what they did.:mad:
What makes you think that woman and her son don't
deserve revenge? I think they do.
Oh, but we aren't speaking literally and we are too "civilized" to know our a** from our elbow.
I think your initial reaction was the honest one until you intellectualized it to make your self feel better.
Character Disorders? What is that? I've never seen that in a diagnostics manual........maybe you have a newer version.:rolleyes:
Maybe you are referring to "personility disorders". Which is also a mental disorder. Maybe you are referring to organic vs. non- organic?
In keeping with your verbiage anyway....let's give you an example as to why your logic doesn't work:
1. I have a flaw in my personality because I procrastinate heavily. (true)
2. I have a flaw in my personality because I procrastinate heavily and gun rape someone in front of their son.
(false)
Google "character disorder", I learned it in college pyschology class, from a documentary on sex offenders who are incarcerated but not as harshly as other criminals and receive outside help to identify their character disorder.
I don't know if it's right, I just thought MAYBE that could be a possibility, so get off me man. And yes it is different from personality disorder, I can't remember how but it is.
I never pardoned the wrongdoings of the boys, but I was suggesting that MAYBE it could be because of character disorder. But maybe not, I'm not a psychologist, but hey, neither are you.
What possible difference does it make what kind of disorder the monsters have. Are you going to worry about what kind of disorder Godzilla might have while he eats the god damn city?
And hopefully we can try to make places like that better so this won't happen again.
Indeed, we need to clean up many such situations. In this, I agree with Bullitt; the U.S.
has to improve the public education system as one means toward the goal.
What makes you think that woman and her son don't deserve revenge? I think they do.
Oh, but we aren't speaking literally and we are too "civilized" to know our a** from our elbow.
I think your initial reaction was the honest one until you intellectualized it to make your self feel better.
I'm afraid it just isn't that simple, at least not for me. In fact, I have a very small insight into some of the horror of that family. My marriage fell apart a few years ago largely because of emotional problems my wife has. The woman that I still love (despite lousy things that happened between us) was molested by her own uncle when she was six years old. Needless to say, this affected her deeply and scarred her for life. When I first heard about this, my stomach almost emptied itself and I thought I would kill her uncle if I ever met him. She somehow has found enough of a way to deal with it to at least keep herself from violence and convince me to do likewise. This is definitley
not the same thing as being that woman or her child, yet I
do know the feeling of rage and dealing with it.
I previously said I favor locking up the attackers. Most likely this should be for life, without chance of parole. I still can't agree with more violence, however. It has to stop somewhere.
Indeed, we need to clean up many such situations. In this, I agree with Bullitt; the U.S. has to improve the public education system as one means toward the goal.
Don't blame this shit on the schools.
He dropped out of school after spending three years in seventh grade.
The schools tried, but he dropped out. This is clearly the fault of the parents/families, nobody else.
I'm afraid it just isn't that simple, at least not for me. In fact, I have a very small insight into some of the horror of that family. My marriage fell apart a few years ago largely because of emotional problems my wife has. The woman that I still love (despite lousy things that happened between us) was molested by her own uncle when she was six years old. Needless to say, this affected her deeply and scarred her for life. When I first heard about this, my stomach almost emptied itself and I thought I would kill her uncle if I ever met him. She somehow has found enough of a way to deal with it to at least keep herself from violence and convince me to do likewise. This is definitley not the same thing as being that woman or her child, yet I do know the feeling of rage and dealing with it.
I previously said I favor locking up the attackers. Most likely this should be for life, without chance of parole. I still can't agree with more violence, however. It has to stop somewhere.
OK, don't fry the little fuckers, just do to them what they did to this family, for the rest of their lives.
previously said I favor locking up the attackers. Most likely this should be for life, without chance of parole. I still can't agree with more violence, however. It has to stop somewhere.
There's no violence in prison? We'll just lock them away from the rest of us and pat ourselves on the back for being civilized then?
This is definitley not the same thing as being that woman or her child, yet I do know the feeling of rage and dealing with it.
Not the same thing
because
you haven't even given a scenario where you were actually a
victim.
Special insight?
Nah.......
OK, don't fry the little fuckers, just do to them what they did to this family, for the rest of their lives.
I must maintain my personal aversion to violence as I just can't see any value in it. In all honesty, what would you hope to achieve?
There's no violence in prison? We'll just lock them away from the rest of us and pat ourselves on the back for being civilized then?
Touché. By all accounts, prison is a terrible place. Perhaps the methods of incarceration can be addressed. I will be the first to admit that I have few, if any, of the important answers. I simply feel the need to find alternatives to brute tactics.
I must maintain my personal aversion to violence as I just can't see any value in it. In all honesty, what would you hope to achieve?
Make sure they never do it again plus a deterrent the the fuckers in waiting.
More violence is a deterrent to violence! ROFLMAO!!!!!
!!!!!
It certainly would be to these rodents.
Make sure they never do it again plus a deterrent the the fuckers in waiting.
Indeed, they would not be able to do it again. I'd say the same result would be achieved by lifetime imprisonment. As to deterrence, I am not so sure. I've heard various claims denouncing the deterrent value of prison, so I fear the same might hold true here. I honestly don't know if it would have the desired effect. I must admit I am fairly certain Bruce knows more about this than I do; he seems much more knowledgeable and well-read on social issues. My ethics are my own guide here, though, and they are quite firmly established.
I actually respect everyone else's right to their opinions and appreciate the opportunity to discuss them. At the moment it seems rather obvious to me that we are at something of an impasse, however. Perhaps for now it would be best (as the expression goes) to simply agree to disagree.
What possible difference does it make what kind of disorder the monsters have. Are you going to worry about what kind of disorder Godzilla might have while he eats the god damn city?
Ummmmmm read my second part of the my post, I don't agree any less with you that they are monsters.
As to deterrence, I am not so sure. I've heard various claims denouncing the deterrent value of prison, so I fear the same might hold true here.
You're right about prison not being a deterrent. The street punks aren't afraid of prison. They expect it before they are 21. They don't fear it because their buddies are there waiting for them and when they get out it gives them street creds.
If prison isn't a deterrent or rehabilitation facility, then it's only doing a small part of what it should. Since "hard labor" went out with sword fighting and knickers, the only bad thing about prison, for these hoods, is the boredom. For kids waiting all day on the street corner, or basketball court, for something interesting to happen, that's not much of a deterrent.
Ummmmmm read my second part of the my post, I don't agree any less with you that they are monsters.
I didn't question the second part of your post, I just said the first part is a moot point.
Godzilla is a fictional character.
These kids are real.
It's shocking and disgusting what they've done.
They should pay for their crime.
If they're sent to adult prison, they'll definitely get a piece of what they gave.
Any chance of rehabilitation for them?
I doubt it.
You're right about prison not being a deterrent. The street punks aren't afraid of prison. They expect it before they are 21. They don't fear it because their buddies are there waiting for them and when they get out it gives them street creds.
If prison isn't a deterrent or rehabilitation facility, then it's only doing a small part of what it should. Since "hard labor" went out with sword fighting and knickers, the only bad thing about prison, for these hoods, is the boredom. For kids waiting all day on the street corner, or basketball court, for something interesting to happen, that's not much of a deterrent.
You also can't forget you have gauranteed shelter and food, sometimes entertainment.
True, some people live much more comfortably in prison than on the street. Sure as hell wouldn't be my choice, though.
Not by a long-shot. I've been on the street and, well not prison but jail.
I would still choose the street ANY DAY of the week.
& I was one of the guys who got his way... I can't imagine what it was like for the pretty boys, ugh!
Pretty or not, if you have a clique of your hoodies, gang members and relatives waiting for you on the inside, it's not a problem. It's only a problem for guys like us that are on our own.
Most people on the street are not alone either. Everyone I knew had a peer group.
Sure, but on the street, you don't get the;
You also can't forget you have gauranteed shelter and food, sometimes entertainment.
That was the case for being more comfortable in prison than on the street.
You brought up the dangers;
I can't imagine what it was like for the pretty boys, ugh!
And I pointed out that isn't a problem for these scumbags;
Pretty or not, if you have a clique of your hoodies, gang members and relatives waiting for you on the inside, it's not a problem. It's only a problem for guys like us that are on our own.
Now I'd definitely rather be on the street, but it's not a deterrent for these scumbags that commit these atrocities.
Character disorder = personality disorder.
This is NOT equivalent to someone who has a diagnosable major mental illness (Depression, Schizophrenia, Bipolar, etc.), although I'll betcha dollars to doughnuts that each of these perpetrators carries one or more of these diagnoses, even if they don't actually exhibit the full symptom spectrum. Why? Insurance companies don't pay for personality disorders.
These bastards just need to die.
[Threadjack] Wolf, I caught some guy on TV last night claiming a huge percentage of the people taking up space in the state and county jails should really be in your care. It was just a clip and I didn't get the details.[/threadjack]
Character disorder = personality disorder.
Antisocial and dependent would be my guess.
[Threadjack] Wolf, I caught some guy on TV last night claiming a huge percentage of the people taking up space in the state and county jails should really be in your care. It was just a clip and I didn't get the details.[/threadjack]
Not surprising. We have a "diversion" program to keep the local hoosgow from being a spare psych hospital ... although it's like walking a tightrope sometimes, as there are real instances where crazy people do things because they are criminals, not because they are crazy.
We have a similar situation over here. The percentage of the prison population, thought to be suffering serious mental illness is very high. Hell of a lot of the prison population are learning disabled as well, which tends to keep them (when they aren't in the prison system) hidden from view, much less likely to be seeing a doctor regularly, or be in regular employment, so much easier to slip unseen from mild to serious mental issues. Lot of people spend their whole lives slipping through the nets and never quite being recognised for what they are.
*blinks* I have no response to that.
These animals need to "ride the lightning".
The one little cocksucker SMILED at reporters.
His thought is "I'm juvie, I'll go inside "til I'm 18, then I'm back out."
And what real deterrent is prison to these felons?
None.
3 hots and a cot, weight room, cable TV, and other cons to teach them how to be better criminals.
Put them in GenPop, let 'em live until the morning of their 18th b-day, and let 'em fry.
The one has a police record marking him as a violent offender.
And where the fuck is fat-ass Reverend Al during all this?
Or is "black-on-black" crime not his thing?
Maybe he's hiding from Tawana Brawley.
Or Reverend Jesse Jackson?
Where is he?
I guess this isn't a "White Man Conspiracy", so it's beneath him to comment.
America has gotten too soft on criminals like this.
"Oooh, we don't want to violate their civil rights."
Fuck that.
These pukes lost their rights when they pushed the mother back into the apartment.
Up until that point, they could have said "This is some fucked-up shit" and walked away.
The mother was gang-raped and the son tortured.
Execute them.
No appeals.
None of this ACLU shit.
None of this "disadvantaged black youth" bullshit.
None of this "Oh, but my child could never do this!" shit.
Yes he could, and he did.
A condom with DNA traced back to one attacker.
He was there.
Execute him.
A palm print linked back to another one.
He was there.
Execute him.
Execute them, cremate the remains, and mix the remains into the concrete used to build a new wing onto the jail.
They don't deserve burial in consecrated ground.
Yeah... then we all become what they are, exactly what they are.
Is it not true that whatever their sentence ends up being, they'll serve it in juvenile detention until such time as they reach majority and thereafter will serve the remainder of their sentance in an adult facility?
That's what I thought happened. That's how it works over here I think.
Is it not true that whatever their sentence ends up being, they'll serve it in juvenile detention until such time as they reach majority and thereafter will serve the remainder of their sentance in an adult facility?
Depends. It's different in every state, and practically for every crime. But there is a distinct set of times when a juvenile serves time until their 18th birthday, and then their record is sealed and they walk away free and clear. (Somebody somewhere thought it was a good idea to give blanket second-chances...) There was actually a case of teens who murdered with the specific excuse of, "We're 16, so we won't do jail time." They tried those fuckers as adults too.
Character disorder = personality disorder.
This is NOT equivalent to someone who has a diagnosable major mental illness (Depression, Schizophrenia, Bipolar, etc.), although I'll betcha dollars to doughnuts that each of these perpetrators carries one or more of these diagnoses, even if they don't actually exhibit the full symptom spectrum. Why? Insurance companies don't pay for personality disorders.
These bastards just need to die.
Honest question here...Doesn't character imply an observable
defense reaction and personality doesn't necessarily?
You're the pro. you tell me. Not that it matters or applies to the subject at hand.
I don't think this can be blamed on anyone but the kids in question. It wasn't their environment, the failure of public education, or the faults of their parents.
Maybe they are just f'ing evil folks. The same kind of people can come from a very healthy background with a supportive family and great education.
Is it not true that whatever their sentence ends up being, they'll serve it in juvenile detention until such time as they reach majority and thereafter will serve the remainder of their sentence in an adult facility?
In most cases in America, Juveniles serve their sentence until they are 18 and then the walk away WITHOUT a record!! Thats the problem over here, Ali. They could potentially serve 2-5 years depending on their ages. If they are tried as adults then they may serve much longer sentences.
Personally, there isn't a sentence long enough for what the did. Such a blatant disregard for human life deserves whatever we as a society can to GUARANTEE they NEVER have the opportunity to do anyone else any harm. Make an example of them??? I don't know if that works, I think thats a discussion for another thread.
I don't think this can be blamed on anyone but the kids in question. It wasn't their environment, the failure of public education, or the faults of their parents.
I wouldn't be so quick to let the parents off the hook.
It's a shame she wasn't armed.
I don't think this can be blamed on anyone but the kids in question. It wasn't their environment, the failure of public education, or the faults of their parents.
Maybe they are just f'ing evil folks. The same kind of people can come from a very healthy background with a supportive family and great education.
Its hard to make that argument since most of the crime like this comes from lower class communities. This has been the trend throughout history that poverty allows a greater number and more brutal (at least on the surface) crime on an individual level.
If these kids were raised in a suburban neighborhood, I have a really hard time believing they would be pulling the same shit. They would still be the "bad" kids but suburban kids that get in trouble have no comparison to urban kids that get in trouble.
In reality, it has to be a great mixture of genetics, parenting, and environment.
In reality, it has to be a great mixture of genetics, parenting, and environment.
Fair statement.
I don't know if I've ever been so horrified by what happened in an area so close to home. I had to post this.
I'd like to know your thoughts on trying these "boys" as adults versus juveniles.
If they are juveniles, they should be tried as such.
Whether this should result in a different sentence if found guilty than if they had been adults is a different issue. As is the age of adult responsibility. Personally, I think a 16yo is plenty old enough to be expected to have mature insight into those sort of crimes.
That said, here comes the grey area. I would like to know "why" they did it. If there's a single element of "because they knew they could get away with it because of their age", then I think an adult trial seems appropriate. But that's such a hard thing to judge. Such is life.
Also, is it just me that thinks the forcing the mom to give the son a bj seems incongruent with the gang rape. Why would they want to do that after they had all got their rocks off? Was it really a sex crime? Or was it more about humiliation, and if so, what's the betting one of those jerks has pics on their cellphones? The cynic in me asks if the last bit even really happened. Although it would be a bizarre thing to make up.
I would like to know "why" they did it.
Nothing to do and nothing to lose.
Nothing to do and nothing to lose.
maybe. But I want to hear it from them
I suspect the only think you'll hear from them is, "Duh...I dunno".
Also, is it just me that thinks the forcing the mom to give the son a bj seems incongruent with the gang rape. Why would they want to do that after they had all got their rocks off? Was it really a sex crime? Or was it more about humiliation, and if so, what's the betting one of those jerks has pics on their cellphones? The cynic in me asks if the last bit even really happened. Although it would be a bizarre thing to make up.
Rape is never really about sex. Rape is about violence, humiliation, and subjugation. Which, when you get right down to it, is even sicker than if it were about sex.
Also, is it just me that thinks the forcing the mom to give the son a bj seems incongruent with the gang rape. Why would they want to do that after they had all got their rocks off? Was it really a sex crime? Or was it more about humiliation, and if so, what's the betting one of those jerks has pics on their cellphones? The cynic in me asks if the last bit even really happened. Although it would be a bizarre thing to make up.
Sex crimes are rarely about sex. They are about power and control.
Honest question here...Doesn't character imply an observable defense reaction and personality doesn't necessarily?
You're the pro. you tell me. Not that it matters or applies to the subject at hand.
I don't actually understand your question.
If they are juveniles, they should be tried as such.
Whether this should result in a different sentence if found guilty than if they had been adults is a different issue. As is the age of adult responsibility. Personally, I think a 16yo is plenty old enough to be expected to have mature insight into those sort of crimes.
That said, here comes the grey area. I would like to know "why" they did it. If there's a single element of "because they knew they could get away with it because of their age", then I think an adult trial seems appropriate. But that's such a hard thing to judge. Such is life.
These "kids" committed a very adult crime. They planned it, and worse yet, they planned it en masse, even to the point of bringing condoms. That alone shows that they knew what they were planning was wrong because they hoped to conceal it, all before actually committing it.
The real answers will not come from asking these horrible, horrible wastes of flesh why they did what they did, but it would instead come from asking them why what they did was wrong. They don't seem all too smart, so I can imagine that it wouldn't be hard to get them to answer that question before they realize why it was being asked (to establish that they knew better). And I guarantee you that they knew better.
Rape is a violent crime that damages its victims beyond repair, and the damage increases exponentially by the number of attackers. I was raped in 1993, 14 years ago, and I will never be the same again. The guy who raped me for damn sure knew better, and I think that any child over the age of 8 who wasn't raised by wolves does, as well.
I'm firmly in the camp of removing these monsters from society for good, never to see the light of day again. What they did is indicative of something gone wrong deep in the moral wiring of them, and I don't believe that there is any fixing that kind of aberrant behavior. I also don't see the point in locking people up for life. Lethal injection, electric chair, hanging by a noose, whatever is cheapest. I don't think my tax dollars should be used to warehouse consciousless monsters who, if they were to escape, would only create more victims all over again.
These "kids" committed a very adult crime. They planned it, and worse yet, they planned it en masse, even to the point of bringing condoms. That alone shows that they knew what they were planning was wrong because they hoped to conceal it, all before actually committing it.
The real answers will not come from asking these horrible, horrible wastes of flesh why they did what they did, but it would instead come from asking them why what they did was wrong. They don't seem all too smart, so I can imagine that it wouldn't be hard to get them to answer that question before they realize why it was being asked (to establish that they knew better). And I guarantee you that they knew better.
Rape is a violent crime that damages its victims beyond repair, and the damage increases exponentially by the number of attackers. I was raped in 1993, 14 years ago, and I will never be the same again. The guy who raped me for damn sure knew better, and I think that any child over the age of 8 who wasn't raised by wolves does, as well.
I'm firmly in the camp of removing these monsters from society for good, never to see the light of day again. What they did is indicative of something gone wrong deep in the moral wiring of them, and I don't believe that there is any fixing that kind of aberrant behavior. I also don't see the point in locking people up for life. Lethal injection, electric chair, hanging by a noose, whatever is cheapest. I don't think my tax dollars should be used to warehouse consciousless monsters who, if they were to escape, would only create more victims all over again.
Now someone around here is really making sense. But I think they should have to live for awhile as scarred as their victims.
Again, if you have no arms, the chances of you actually forcing yourself on someone else with a gun are diminished.
Knowing why they did this serves no purpose. It is what it is, an extemporaneous circumstance. It's not like they were merely rebelling against society or their parents, they were rebelling against any human concept they've ever had, and let them keep on keepin' on. Just minus a few arms.
Let them keep rollin'............................
They could impress each other with the make and model of their new wheelchairs.
I'd line each of them up on the top of a hill with their hands cuffed behind their backs. I'd nail their balls to a stump, and then kick the stump over so it rips their nuts off as it rolls down the hill. Then I'd torture them for a day or two until they begged me to die. And then I'd like them up and mow them down with a machine gun.
Yeah.. they are the sick ones.
Clarification
Its hard to make that argument since most of the crime like this comes from lower class communities. This has been the trend throughout history that poverty allows a greater number and more brutal (at least on the surface) crime on an individual level.
If these kids were raised in a suburban neighborhood, I have a really hard time believing they would be pulling the same shit. They would still be the "bad" kids but suburban kids that get in trouble have no comparison to urban kids that get in trouble.
In reality, it has to be a great mixture of genetics, parenting, and environment.
Tell that to Jeffery Dahmer. Not that I disagree that more sick stuff happens in the impoverished areas. I just think that you are letting suburbanites off the hook. Just like everyone else.......I know what suburbanite kids do.
Never heard of the football team rapists? Not to be cliche but.......
Let's see, someone gang rapes a woman and forces her into incest with her son, who they blinded and beat, and I dish out the punishment they deserve, and I'm the sick one?
Let's see, someone gang rapes a woman and forces her into incest with her son, who they blinded and beat, and I dish out the punishment they deserve, and I'm the sick one?
I have an answer for that. Nope, not sick for that.
I think people are confused between
Justified Anger on the behalf of a fellow human being and
sickness.
Which is a completely different subject............but at this point, something to point out to all those in the "just as sick as they are" camp.
[I]I am done monopolizing this thread though....I can be such a harpy...........[/I]
Clarification
Tell that to Jeffery Dahmer. Not that I disagree that more sick stuff happens in the impoverished areas. I just think that you are letting suburbanites off the hook. Just like everyone else.......I know what suburbanite kids do.
Never heard of the football team rapists? Not to be cliche but.......
I was raised in a suburban area and it is not even close to as bad as urban areas. Yes, there will be a be a few sick kids in suburban areas but those are extremely rare while crime in urban areas is more common. Suburban kids do not have the social motivation to pull any of that shit.
Don't we have a law like "No cruel or unnecessary punishment"? Torturing the victims isn't going to fix anything, it is just going to show who has the bigger cock. These kids should be punished greatly but to torture them to make yourself feel better is still extremely sick disturbing and pointless.
That's why all the serial killers and mass murderers come from impoverished areas, right Peirce?
I think people are confused between Justified Anger on the behalf of a fellow human being and sickness.
Or maybe people are confused between 'justice' and enraged vengeance.
Exactly, justice is never vengeance and vengeance is never justice.
[I]I am done monopolizing this thread though....I can be such a harpy...........[/I]
Not at all, you have expressed legitimate points.
Don't we have a law like "No cruel or unnecessary punishment"?
It's
unusual punishment, which means different from what society normally hands out. Society determines what the punishment should be. At one time everyone convicted of capital crimes was shot or hung. We've unfortunately gotten away from that, but we could change that and still stay within the Constitutional restriction on "unusual".
Or maybe people are confused between 'justice' and enraged vengeance.
Well that doesn't include me because I already said I thought that woman and her son deserve
vengeance.
Rage can also be justified.
If I think of this happening to someone close to me, i'm sure i'd still want vengeance.
What about you?
What if it were you and your son? (if you have one, whatever) If it were me I'd take vengeance over a false sense of justice any day.
Those kids will be sitting in the can for 10 years and getting out on good behavior. No matter what verbiage we use and how "confused" we are. This happens over and over like I said earlier, and very often
in Florida. When something like this happens to you- let me know, and come back to me and define "justice" again.
:)
When something like this happens to you- let me know, and come back to me and define "justice" again.
Yeah. You're right, I've never been gangraped and forced to fellate my own son. I am assuming you also haven't experienced this. Neither of us have experienced that specific crime, both of us are capable of imagining how we may respond/feel/suffer or seek vengeance. I am sure, if I suffered that, I'd personally want to kill them. Which is why their sentence/punishment, shouldn't be up to me, but should be up to an objective legal system. That way, no possibility of delivering vengeance via the justice system.
Either the judicial system is there to ensure justice, or it's there to provide vengeance. Individual victims may seek vengeance, but society, I believe, should provide justice.
The victim and justice system don't don't have to disagree, however.
That's why all the serial killers and mass murderers come from impoverished areas, right Peirce?
No, that is why there is more crime in impoverished areas and why those crimes are more severe.
Mass murders are something completely different. Those guys are most likely insane or very messed up while those kids probably knew exactly what they were doing.
It's unusual punishment
Oops, that is what I meant.
Actually the term is "Cruel AND unusual punishment". If we gave all murderers the death penalty via hand grenade thrown in their cell and all rapists the punishment of having their junk cut chewed off by rabid wolverines, some could call it cruel but it would not be cruel and unusual and would therefore not violate the 8th amendment.
Thankfully it is the court's interpretation and not yours that counts.
Well, that's my main problem with the courts. They try to "interpret" a document that was written in simple English. It doesn't require interpretation. It isn't vague or ambiguous in the slightest. It means exactly what it says and in any case where someone has a question, the tie goes to the runner meaning if there's a case where a power could belong to the government or the people, it belongs to the people.
They could impress each other with the make and model of their new wheelchairs.
They don't need wheelchairs - they can still walk around????
Either the judicial system is there to ensure justice, or it's there to provide vengeance. Individual victims may seek vengeance, but society, I believe, should provide justice.
Where does prevention come in or rehabilitation??? I don't think that putting these kids in jail for any period of time is "punishment." They probably have many friends and family members there already anyway - and when they get out they just wear the fact that they were in as a badge of honor.
As for rehab - There is no rehabbing anyone who does something like this - they should simply be shot, injected or whatever - Instead of spending
OUR money on keeping them alive, lets put it toward the children that are savable. The judicial system is full of people who are NEVER coming out and we are all paying for them - dearly I might add.
Just think of the billions we spend to keep those evil pot smokers locked up.
It's not the meaning of the word "and" that requires interpretation, it's the meaning of the words "cruel" and "unusual".
Dwellars please follow: according to Radar's "no interpretation necessary" understanding of the US Constitution, having a wild animal chew off a prisoner's genitals is not "cruel and unusual".
There's no stronger case for the need for court interpretation, instead of Radar non-interpretation. Luckily the framers left the job of interpretation up to the courts instead of just assuming we'd all understand what it says.
Unusual is pretty easy, cruel is quite open to interpretation, however.
Wait a minute... If it says cruel and unusual, does that mean it can be cruel if it's not unusual? Or unusual if it's not cruel?
Lets instead use that money for some real rehabilitatable individuals or something where we can actually make a beneficial difference to/for society - not just neatly hiding the evildoers in a corner and feeling good that they were "punished." Wipe this scum off the face of the earth and move on. Help those that want, we can, and deserve our help.
Exactly, justice is never vengeance and vengeance is never justice.
Punishment for crimes is not vengeance and it is justice.
Unusual is pretty easy, cruel is quite open to interpretation, however.
Wait a minute... If it says cruel and unusual, does that mean it can be cruel if it's not unusual? Or unusual if it's not cruel?
That's exactly what it means. It means a judge can sentence you to stand with a sandwich board around you on a corner that says you are a pedophile. This is unusual, but not cruel.
re: cruel and unusual punishment - Since putting them in prison or juvenile detention doesn't seem to work - JUST a question or 2.
Is the thought of going to jail a deterrent to these types of people? Apparently not - therefore...
Would the thought of their life ending VERY quickly? And I meaqn without years of delays and appeals? I gotta think that even the most immoral assholes gotta value, if nothing else their lives.
It seems fitting that the guilt be burdened by the parents of these criminals. Their death sentence be made manditory to be viewed in person by their parents. As well as full coverage by nationl Television. The ones who raised these children are certainly more to blame than the perpetrators.
It's not the meaning of the word "and" that requires interpretation, it's the meaning of the words "cruel" and "unusual".
Dwellars please follow: according to Radar's "no interpretation necessary" understanding of the US Constitution, having a wild animal chew off a prisoner's genitals is not "cruel and unusual".
There's no stronger case for the need for court interpretation, instead of Radar non-interpretation. Luckily the framers left the job of interpretation up to the courts instead of just assuming we'd all understand what it says.
The framers gave the courts no such "interpretation" powers in the Constitution. Also, having a wild animal chew off a prisoner's genitals is very cruel, but if applied widely to a lot of people it's not unusual. Therefore it's not cruel AND unusual.
There are many who would agree that this is an appropriate form of punishment for child molesters.
It seems fitting that the guilt be burdened by the parents of these criminals. Their death sentence be made manditory to be viewed in person by their parents. As well as full coverage by nationl Television. The ones who raised these children are certainly more to blame than the perpetrators.
Uh, no I don't think so - for many reasons.
It seems fitting that the guilt be burdened by the parents of these criminals. Their death sentence be made manditory to be viewed in person by their parents. As well as full coverage by national Television.
.
The ones who raised these children are certainly more to blame than the perpetrators. Overall more effective on Societys main issue. "Raising the future generations members".
.
Put the blame where it belongs.
Uh, no I still don't think so - for many reasons.
These "kids" committed a very adult crime. They planned it, and worse yet, they planned it en masse, even to the point of bringing condoms. That alone shows that they knew what they were planning was wrong because they hoped to conceal it, all before actually committing it.
Let's be fair. They may not have planned bringing along the condoms.
Their school probably gave the rubbers to them.
Put the blame where it belongs.
And that would be the rapists, themselves.
People can be raised in horrible circumstances, and never do horrible things. Yes, parents and community are be contributors to an individual's understanding of and relation to the world, but they are not the sole determinant.
It seems fitting that the guilt be burdened by the parents of these criminals. Their death sentence be made manditory to be viewed in person by their parents. As well as full coverage by nationl Television. The ones who raised these children are certainly more to blame than the perpetrators.
Ummm, no.
I wasn't raised by the best parents. They made some mistakes, and at some point, I had to make the decision whether to be a victim of it (a fuckup) or to be an upstanding, respectable person. I chose option 2, much as those abominations could have. Instead, they chose to gangrape and torture two poor immigrants who came to this country seeking the American dream, only to get the worst nightmare experience that America could serve up, and to top it off, the remorseless little pricks who did it probably won't receive punishment to fit the crime because of their age in spite of their very rational, adult planning and perpetration of the crime.
Yes, the parents should shoulder some responsibility. But all of it? No. Not even the bulk of it.
Appalling crime. On whether they should be tried as juveniles: if they are juveniles, then they should be tried as juveniles, regardless of the nature of their crime. That they committed a horrific crime does not in any way change their age and likely level of mental/emotional development.
Agreed 100%. We try juveniles differently for a reason, and it's not because kids never do terrible things.
Agreed 100%. We try juveniles differently for a reason, and it's not because kids never do terrible things.
Ok, so if one of these "kids" is 15, lets say, he is tried and convicted at a speedy trial - serves the maximum we can sentence a "kid" to and is out on his 18th birthday after serving less than 3 years. You think thats justice?? Right?? Fair??
You think thats justice?? Right?? Fair??
No, but you know what they say: You can't make an omelet without raping some eggs.
Ok, so if one of these "kids" is 15, lets say, he is tried and convicted at a speedy trial - serves the maximum we can sentence a "kid" to and is out on his 18th birthday after serving less than 3 years. You think thats justice?? Right?? Fair??
Are we sure Florida law says 18 and out?
Ok, so if one of these "kids" is 15, lets say, he is tried and convicted at a speedy trial - serves the maximum we can sentence a "kid" to and is out on his 18th birthday after serving less than 3 years. You think thats justice?? Right?? Fair??
I don't know, because I'm not a child psychologist or criminal scientist. I doubt that you are, either. The people who decided that children should be tried separately from adults, were.
It seems likely to me that a 15-year-old could change a lot in three years separated from his friends, harmful family influences, and whatever drugs he was probably doing, with the help of therapy and treatment for any mental illnesses. People don't just come in "good" and "bad" flavors, they can be ill, confused, high, angry at the world, unable to understand right and wrong, etc. Many of these can be changed or treated. I'm not saying that the US criminal justice system as it stands is well-equipped to do that, but I think it should be.
It seems fitting that the guilt be burdened by the parents of these criminals. Their death sentence be made manditory to be viewed in person by their parents. As well as full coverage by nationl Television. The ones who raised these children are certainly more to blame than the perpetrators.
Welcome to the Cellar, Kintups.:D
You don't sound like a Sputnik, they just went beep, beep, beep.
It seems likely to me that a 15-year-old could change a lot in three years separated from his friends, harmful family influences, and whatever drugs he was probably doing, with the help of therapy and treatment for any mental illnesses. People don't just come in "good" and "bad" flavors, they can be ill, confused, high, angry at the world, unable to understand right and wrong, etc. Many of these can be changed or treated. I'm not saying that the US criminal justice system as it stands is well-equipped to do that, but I think it should be.
So can an adult.
If I understand the difference correctly, I believe it is that the juvenile brain and nervous system is not fully developed, things such as impulse control mechanisms. Is that accurate or did I hear that on a televised crime drama? (Which is, incidentally, where criminals often get their stupid ideas.)
It seems likely to me that a 15-year-old could change a lot in three years separated from his friends, harmful family influences, and whatever drugs he was probably doing, with the help of therapy and treatment for any mental illnesses. People don't just come in "good" and "bad" flavors, they can be ill, confused, high, angry at the world, unable to understand right and wrong, etc. Many of these can be changed or treated. I'm not saying that the US criminal justice system as it stands is well-equipped to do that, but I think it should be.
I agree with this almost 100% but the problem is that prisons and juevy do nothing to change a person but just reject them from society which usually makes the problem worse.
I agree with this almost 100% but the problem is that prisons and juevy do nothing to change a person but just reject them from society which usually makes the problem worse.
Yeah, that is the problem. My husband used to work in a jail, so I have a particularly grim view of how incarceration works in the US. Unfortunately, to my mind a lot of the problems come from the ingrained idea that bad things should happen to bad people -- unfortunately, having bad things happen to you frequently makes you an even
worse person.
Yeah, that is the problem. My husband used to work in a jail, so I have a particularly grim view of how incarceration works in the US. Unfortunately, to my mind a lot of the problems come from the ingrained idea that bad things should happen to bad people -- unfortunately, having bad things happen to you frequently makes you an even worse person.
.................................what?!?
:yelsick:
But now that jails are being farmed out to the lowest bidder, things will be much better. [/sarcasm]
.................................what?!?
:yelsick:
A lot of people feel better with the idea that people they don't like are being punished with a very unpleasant life. However, a certain level of unpleasantness goes beyond "teaching a lesson" and can lead to increased personality problems.
Look at it this way: if a kid steals from the cookie jar and his parents make him sit in the corner, he might think "ok, I guess stealing from the cookie jar isn't worth it." If he does the same thing and his parents beat him black and blue, he's more likely to come away with some disturbed ideas about the world. The same is true, to a lesser extent, about adults -- a guy who goes to prison for selling a bit of pot is going to be "punished" in a way that is liable to turn him into a much more dangerous criminal.
This keeps popping up every time we get into a crime and punishment discussion. The drug users that deal a little to support their habit, enable them to buy wholesale, or help out their friends. They clog the courts and the jails... they also complicate the decision of what's fair and practical.
No, but you know what they say: You can't make an omelet without raping some eggs.
wow.
nice edit.
Hime, I see a lot of what you are saying, but a couple points:
Stealing from a cookie jar, or smoking pot, are worlds apart in terms of criminality from brutal rape, attacking with chemicals, and forcing incest.
The incidents that occurred may or may not be a result of "bad parenting" (which itself even sounds too nice a term) but the offenses are atrocities.
Also, I would like to point out that the original question was "should these kiddies be tried as adults?" Though I think yes, and others think no...the actual punishment is not the debate. I've never been in a juvy or adult prison (except when I visited Paris) so I don't know how much difference, if any, there might be in rehabilitative actions between the two.
Also, does anyone know: if a juvy is tried as an adult, and convicted, do they serve their time in juvy or adult?
I would also like to say that this is the most conservative I have ever been. I'm very liberal, don't believe in CP (for many reasons, not just moral) but what happened in this crime goes way beyond a couple kids out for some kicks, and even my liberal heart finds it very difficult to wonder nature vs nurture, or if the poor kids just need some lovin' and understanding.
Just mho.
Oh, and amen Bruce for post 136. Very true.
Also, does anyone know: if a juvy is tried as an adult, and convicted, do they serve their time in juvy or adult?
3 teens indicted in gang rape, could face life prison terms
Avion Lawson, 13, Nathan Walker, 16, and Jakaris Taylor, 15, were indicted on charges that included masked, armed sexual battery by multiple perpetrators - eight counts - burglary with assault or battery, and kidnapping. Each of the eight sexual battery counts carries a life sentence. Four of the other 14 counts are first-degree felonies; the remaining two are felonies in the second and third degrees.
The defendants now will probably be booked into the county jail on Gun Club Road, the same as adults charged with crimes.
"That would be normal procedure. If they are charged as adults, they would be transferred to the main detention facility," said Paul Miller, a sheriff's office spokesman.
At the jail, they will be housed on the 12th-floor juvenile center, Miller said.
"There are always about 40 to 50 of them," he said. "They're kept away from adult prisoners."
If the three are convicted, they will likely be incarcerated at Indian River Correctional Institution in Vero Beach, where there is a "young adult offender" wing, said Florida Department of Corrections spokeswoman Gretl Plessinger. That's where Nathaniel Brazill, convicted of shooting and killing Lake Worth Middle School teacher Barry Grunow, initially was sent.
When they turn 18, young felons are transferred to other prisons to serve out their sentences, Plessinger said.
Oh, yeah, never mind the question. ;) :blush:
When they turn 18, young felons are transferred to other prisons to serve out their sentences, Plessinger said.
Prisoners to teens:
"That's not a rape...
The defendants now will probably be booked into the county jail on
Gun Club Road, the same as adults charged with crimes.
Just found that address kind of ironic.
even funnier is that there's a Donald Trump golf course on that same road - the connies can look out their cell windows and watch the old farts playing golf.
This keeps popping up every time we get into a crime and punishment discussion. The drug users that deal a little to support their habit, enable them to buy wholesale, or help out their friends. They clog the courts and the jails... they also complicate the decision of what's fair and practical.
I think it should come up often. It is bottle-necking the whole system, and in effect, robbing your average Joe Shmo of due process.
What about Mr. No Insurance- is it really imperative that we stir him in the same pot with the murderers and rapists? Yeah, lots of little clogs, like repeat traffic violations. My friend's son got caught on a warrant and put in the can for a jay-walking ticket......
What about the uuuummm......unsolved recent murders that happened in the area at that time?
Dunno
Duh.
The mass of jay-walking infractions and parking tickets must have been too overwhelming.
What about the people sentenced to life - those that have no chance of ever getting out - are they clogging the sytem too? Are they a drain on society? Are they the ones we should deal with to make room for those who should do time and may be deterred from repeating the same offenses against society? Are there enough of them to make a difference?
They're the ones we should be making room for.
Again, prison is not reformatory. Petit crimes punished with long sentences produce better criminals. I don't see the need to put the 18-year-old with a quarter of the icky sticky and a pipe in jail no matter how many times he gets caught.
People sentenced to life would be a drain on society when they are free to roam the streets and continue to carry out their acts of violence. I will gladly fork over my tax dollars to keep those sociopaths out of my life.
Another issue I wanted to address with this thread (but no one's really perked up about it thus far), is what you all think about the neighbors who HAD to have heard the attack, failed to call authorities before OR after the attack, and even though the victims laid on their bathroom floor for several hours before walking to the hospital, did not come over and offer any kind of assistance, like, say, oh, I don't know, a fucking ride to the hospital.
Other than perhaps a moral responsibility to your fellow human, what responsibility to you feel, if any, these people should have towards their neighbors?
I don't really see why a child stealing should be thought of as acting as a child, while a child doing something like this should be thought of as acting as an adult. While someone who takes something so they don't have to pay for it is acting on a rational, selfish impulse, someone who engages in this kind of behavior is showing a profound lack of empathy, or inability to distinguish reality from fantasy, or simply inability to think for himself and disobey whatever "leader" he is following. We like to think of "the children" as sweet and innocent, but the qualities I listed above are all distinctly childish ones.
The more I think about it, the more strongly I believe that this is a case of two or three mentally ill, disturbed "ringleaders" and seven or eight younger kids with no real role models or authority figures who got attached to this gang as a way of coping with life in a very dangerous neighborhood. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the kids who've been arrested so far are the followers, and the leaders are actually 18 or older -- the better to manipulate kids into doing something like this. :mad:
That has a horribly ring of truth to it Hime.
They're the ones we should be making room for.
I reread my post and don't know if what I meant came through. I was questioning if we should remove the terminal criminals from the system making room in the prisons. Thus creating a situation where the prisons aren't overcrowded with scum that are never getting out. These people only create an environment that perpetuates crime - they, for all intents and purposes, run these places. Without them would our systems be better suited to rehabilitation, education and/or retraining - whatever positives we can.
Just thinkin and wonderin.
I think there is a lot of room for improving the system.
I would like to see violent criminals and lifers housed in different facilities from all other criminals.
I'd like to see the guards put an end to the widespread rape and other assaults that occur in prisons. They currently look the other way, and nobody cares. This makes prisoners full of hate and violence when they get out and rejoin the rest of us in society.
I'd like to see some sort of program that would identify prisoners who can be rehabilitated, and work hard on rehabilitating them. It should be the top priority of the system for this group.
I'd like violent prisoners to be held in prison until they can pass some sort of evaluation that shows they are not a risk to society, even if that means holding on to them for longer than their sentences. The number one reason for prison is to protect society.
At the same time, I'd like people who are not a danger to society to be put in some sort of minimum security rehabilitation program, and I'd like their sentences to be short.
I'd like mentally ill prisoners to be put in high security mental hospitals and held there until the doctors think they are not a danger.
And finally, if you are going to differentiate between kids and adults, you should always differentiate between them, regardless of the crime. The law should be applied equally and consistently to all.
I think there is a lot of room for improving the system.
I would like to see violent criminals and lifers housed in different facilities from all other criminals.
I'd like to see the guards put an end to the widespread rape and other assaults that occur in prisons. They currently look the other way, and nobody cares. This makes prisoners full of hate and violence when they get out and rejoin the rest of us in society.
I'd like to see some sort of program that would identify prisoners who can be rehabilitated, and work hard on rehabilitating them. It should be the top priority of the system for this group.
I'd like violent prisoners to be held in prison until they can pass some sort of evaluation that shows they are not a risk to society, even if that means holding on to them for longer than their sentences. The number one reason for prison is to protect society.
At the same time, I'd like people who are not a danger to society to be put in some sort of minimum security rehabilitation program, and I'd like their sentences to be short.
I'd like mentally ill prisoners to be put in high security mental hospitals and held there until the doctors think they are not a danger.
And finally, if you are going to differentiate between kids and adults, you should always differentiate between them, regardless of the crime. The law should be applied equally and consistently to all.
I agree with almost all of this. One of the things that most disgusts me about my country is the majority's total apathy towards the living conditions of prisoners. Prison rape is not funny, people.
I agree too. Well said! But I must say that somehow, not specifically in this instance, that the punishment should fit the crime.
I agree too.
It's just hard for me to come to terms with those atrocities coming out of the minds of such young people, and I have a hard time differentiating between someone who could do such things at 15, or at 18, or at 35.
Our criminal system is horrible; I know I have no solutions. So many people who get out want to get back in, it's the only life they know.
Our criminal system is horrible; I know I have no solutions.
Maybe the
Philippinos have it right????
the punishment should fit the crime.
I'd agree with this too, but I'd wager that everyone has their own idea of what a fitting punishment is. Just read through this thread.
yeah I know Glatt - but again not on this specific case, but in general, there are crimes committed by "kids" that deserve far longer sentences than the year and a half or two that they get because the system says so. Things need to be more flexible and allow those who deal with this stuff all the time the ability to determine what is "fitting."
I never said what I thought the punishment should be in this case. I did say to try them as adults, because of my feeling I outlined in post 154 (sounds like an American Legion baseball team.)
Lord knows what the punishment should be. I'm sure we run the spectrum on what is appropriate, as you said.
Things need to be more flexible and allow those who deal with this stuff all the time the ability to determine what is "fitting."
I absolutely agree with that. I hate the idea of legislators telling judges what they have to do in certain situations and not letting them look at the particulars for each case.
I'd like to see some sort of program that would identify prisoners who can be rehabilitated, and work hard on rehabilitating them. It should be the top priority of the system for this group.
Lovely idea, but look at everything else the government does.... the people put in charge.... political pressures.
Flexibility spawns abuses that spawn inflexible rules.
Shit like that promotes systems that are worse than the problems they are trying to solve.
Pardon my cynicism.
I'm thinking of something more along the lines of our public school system, but with high security. I have no idea how to identify those who can be rehabilitated. It's not my area of expertise.
Yeah, I know... that's the problem, who does? I don't trust assholes like Dr Phil, and I'm afraid Dr Wolf would execute everyone.
This has been a conundrum since 1787 when Dr. Rush founded the Philadelphia Society for Alleviating the Miseries of Public Prisons.
i personally think they should lock all the guys who did it away until the 12yr old son turns 18, then they should let him execute each and every one of them.
only vengeance could wash away the humiliation he and she have suffered. :mad2:
But don't let your enemies love you.
Maybe the Philippinos have it right????
Cause Filipinos just want to dance!
4th teen charged in attack at Dunbar
Friday, August 17, 2007
WEST PALM BEACH — A fourth suspect was charged Thursday in connection with the Dunbar Village rape - a brutal attack that shattered the nerves of local residents and gained national attention.
A grand jury indicted Tommy L. Poindexter, 18, on charges of armed sexual battery by multiple perpetrators, burglary with assault or battery, and kidnapping. Prosecutors said they linked him to the crime through DNA evidence.
Poindexter has denied any involvement in the June 18 gang rape of a 35-year-old woman and assault of her 12-year-old son. His last address given to police was in Riviera Beach, but investigators aren't sure if he had a permanent home, West Palm Beach police spokesman Peter Robbins said.
The charges came eight days after Poindexter was taken into custody by the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office Tactical Unit for several outstanding felony warrants not related to the Dunbar case.
So far, Poindexter is the oldest defendant charged in the case.
Investigators said up to 10 young men raped the woman, assaulted her son and forced the mother and son to have sex with each other in their home. The attackers then poured cleaning agents on both and stole the woman's car and cellphone, forcing her to walk a mile to Good Samaritan Medical Center, authorities said.
Avion Lawson, 14, Nathan Walker, 16, and Jakaris Taylor, 15, were indicted July 18 on the same charges as Poindexter. All will be tried as adults. Each of the sexual battery counts carries a life sentence.
It is unclear how Poindexter knew the other defendants.
The tactical unit arrested Poindexter on Aug. 8 after he ran from officers in the 600 block of 36th Street in Lake Park, according to a sheriff's report. The unit had been requested to help find Poindexter because investigators wanted to question him about the Dunbar case.
Poindexter, authorities said, had six small bags of marijuana in a pants pocket and was charged with possession with intent to sell. Shortly after his arrest, West Palm Beach police took over the case and served a warrant to collect his DNA, the sheriff's report said.
Police have found DNA and fingerprints at the crime scene, Robbins said.
Poindexter has been in trouble with the law since he was 14, records show. He has been arrested five times for charges including violation of probation, vehicle theft and burglary.
A man who answered the phone at a West Palm Beach address listed under the name of Poindexter's father identified himself as the family attorney. He said the family was aware of the charges.
Since the attack, life has changed at the barren public housing complex built in 1940.
The woman and her son have moved. Housing authority executives are considering remaking the barracks-style complex, which was rejected for federal grant money in 2004. Armed security guards now patrol the area.
Police are searching for more suspects, Robbins said: "We still have a lot of arrests we're hoping to make."
Another one bights the dust!! Hoooo-waaaa!
The charges came eight days after Poindexter was taken into custody by the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office Tactical Unit for several outstanding felony warrants not related to the Dunbar case.
~snip~
Poindexter, authorities said, had six small bags of marijuana in a pants pocket and was charged with possession with intent to sell. Shortly after his arrest, West Palm Beach police took over the case and served a warrant to collect his DNA, the sheriff's report said.
I read this as the "several outstanding felony warrants" aren't related to the drugs when they busted him either.
So when this horrendous crime took place, at least one of the playas shouldn't have even been on the street.
I read this as the "several outstanding felony warrants" aren't related to the drugs when they busted him either.
So when this horrendous crime took place, at least one of the playas shouldn't have even been on the street.
?? What are you talking about??
The charges came eight days after Poindexter was taken into custody by the Palm Beach County Sheriff's Office Tactical Unit for several outstanding felony warrants not related to the Dunbar case.
Bruce:
Charges:
Booking Date: 04/04/2007
843.15-3163 FAILURE TO APPEAR-FOR MISDEMEANOR OFFENSE; ARR ON 9/13/06
[LIST]
[*]1. NO/IMPROPER DL/EXP MORE THAN 4 MOS
[*]2. RAN STOP SIGN
[/LIST]
Booking Date: 08/08/2007
812.014-4088 LARC-THEFT IS 300 OR MORE BUT LESS THAN 5000 DOLS - GRAND THEFT (FIREARM)/ BOND: 10,000
812.014-4088 LARC-THEFT IS 300 OR MORE BUT LESS THAN 5000 DOLS - GRAND THEFT (FIREARM)/ BOND: 10,000
843.15-3163 FAILURE TO APPEAR-FOR MISDEMEANOR OFFENSE; FTA-ARR: CT1) NO/IMPROPER D/L EXP MORE THAN 4 MOS (ALIAS)
843.15-3163 FAILURE TO APPEAR-FOR MISDEMEANOR OFFENSE; FTA-ARR: CT1) NO DL-NEVER HAD ONE ISSUED/ JUDGE PEREZ
843.02-3143 RESIST OFFICER-OBSTRUCT WO VIOLENCE
893.13-3448 MARIJUANA-POSSESS-WITH INTENT TO SELL MFG OR DELIVER SCHEDULE I
893.13-3696 MARIJUANA-POSSESS-NOT MORE THAN 20 GRAMS
The below charges are all from the assault/rape:
810.02-2762 BURGL-WITH ASSAULT OR BATTERY
787.01-2598 KIDNAP-
787.02-2605 KIDNAP-FALSE IMPRISONMENT-CHILD UNDER 13 YEARS OF AGE
794.023-2704 SEX ASSLT-SEXUAL BATTERY 1ST DEG FEL MULTI PERPETRATORS
794.023-2704 SEX ASSLT-SEXUAL BATTERY 1ST DEG FEL MULTI PERPETRATORS
794.023-2704 SEX ASSLT-SEXUAL BATTERY 1ST DEG FEL MULTI PERPETRATORS
794.023-2704 SEX ASSLT-SEXUAL BATTERY 1ST DEG FEL MULTI PERPETRATORS
794.023-2704 SEX ASSLT-SEXUAL BATTERY 1ST DEG FEL MULTI PERPETRATORS
794.023-2704 SEX ASSLT-SEXUAL BATTERY 1ST DEG FEL MULTI PERPETRATORS
794.023-2704 SEX ASSLT-SEXUAL BATTERY 1ST DEG FEL MULTI PERPETRATORS
794.023-2704 SEX ASSLT-SEXUAL BATTERY 1ST DEG FEL MULTI PERPETRATORS
800.04-4008 SEX OFFENSE-PROMOTE SEXUAL ACTIVITY OF VIC LESS THAN16 YOA
812.014-2792 VEH THEFT-GRAND 3RD DEGREE
810.061-5539 BURGL-IMPAIR DWELLING PHONE POWER FURTHER BURGLARY
And I would LOVE to see the juvy record on this piece of shit. I guarantee you it's more of the same.
So they were not picking him up on several outstanding felony warrants?
I do believe grand theft and resisting are felonies
812.014-4088 LARC-THEFT IS 300 OR MORE BUT LESS THAN 5000 DOLS - GRAND THEFT (FIREARM)/ BOND: 10,000
812.014-4088 LARC-THEFT IS 300 OR MORE BUT LESS THAN 5000 DOLS - GRAND THEFT (FIREARM)/ BOND: 10,000
843.02-3143 RESIST OFFICER-OBSTRUCT WO VIOLENCE
The resisting was when they picked him up and he had posted bond in the two Grand Theft cases. Maybe the failure to appear for the misdemeanor cancels the bonds on the felonies? Or the reporter got the facts mixed up.
Maybe the failure to appear for the misdemeanor cancels the bonds on the felonies?
i think you may be right on with that.
Untold details of horror unfold in new report on Dunbar attack
At the end of the assault, the attackers put the woman in the bathtub, pouring vinegar and water over her, forcing the solution inside her. They poured hydrogen peroxide, alcohol, nail polish remover and ammonia on her, according to the report. They placed foreign objects, including soap, inside her...
Finally, the report says, the assailants looked for a lighter - to set the mother and son on fire.
They didn't find one.
Appalling crime. On whether they should be tried as juveniles: if they are juveniles, then they should be tried as juveniles, regardless of the nature of their crime. That they committed a horrific crime does not in any way change their age and likely level of mental/emotional development.
I do not agree with that............... The crime they commited was in no way juvenile and they were clearly mentally developed enough to pour ammonia over the victim in an attempt to cover their tracks............. Clearly some thought went into this crime
I do not agree with that............... The crime they commited was in no way juvenile and they were clearly mentally developed enough to pour ammonia over the victim in an attempt to cover their tracks............. Clearly some thought went into this crime
Hi and thanks Rennison.....but I think this has been covered in this thread about 15 times.
Welcome to the Cellar rennison.:D
Yes, some thought went into why they did some of the things they did. But I don't think that part was preplanned. I suspect the sick bastards were making it up as they went along.
Juvenile does not imply no thought/planning, it implies juvenile thought/planning.
Pretty tough to define the difference, isn't it? Wouldn't a smart kid plan better than a stupid adult?
hard to define the difference between no thought and juvenile thought?
Yes, I would think a smart kid could plan better than a stupid adult.
hard to define the difference between no thought and juvenile thought?
Sorry, I wasn't clear. Between juvenile thought/plans and adult thought/plans? I asked because you didn't say no plans vs plans, but no plans vs juvenile plans.
I think that's because there was a suggestion that the fact they engaged in planning means they aren't acting as juveniles.
exactly. The poster inferred that if there were plans/thought, then the perps must be acting as adults. But kids do plan and think about things, and they sometimes are extremely illogical and do not have the ability to consider all the possible consequences of their actions, and this is most likely a result of their brains not yet being fully matured.
For example, you might get a toddler wedging the freezer door open because the ice cream was lonely. You treat the "crime" of ruined food differently than you would if it were an older child, and with the older child there might well be a differnce in the consequences depending on whether they were being malicious, careless or stoned. if it were an adult, their reasoning would probably have little impact on the consequences.
That doesn't mean it's easy to differentiate at what level these kids were processing their thoughts, and that's why there is an age limit to differentiate between juveniles and adults. There never will be an easy answer.
What we need is a new type of prison system. No longer is it acceptable to simply house criminals in what are, in effect, training centers for future crimes. It is too expensive to keep building new prisons indefinitely, at least with the way we do things now. New technology will slowly start to improve this though, at least as quickly as we can afford to upgrade the system.
The most immediate thing I can think of is to remove common areas from all prisons constructed from now on. Each inmate would spend their days in a small number of interconnected rooms, perhaps with a combined area of twice to three times a typical cell now. This would allow more prisoners to be stored in a small space, and would also reduce problems during transportation. Food could be transported via vacuum tube, as well as any other items needed. Shower and sink would be contained in the same area, leading to fewer problems during bathing periods. Soap, shampoo, and toothpaste would be depenced from a general tubing system which would serve entire units. Entertainment could be supplied in the form of an hour or so of TV a day (more would waste electricity) and a certain number of books per month requested in advance.
This system, in my most sincerest opinion, would not only be far more effective for general inmates but would also allow more effective containment of high risk or special needs inmates. NO2 or other gases could be pumped into each cell without guards being put at risk due to the confined area, and the prisoner would not need to be subdued physically.
This is not nearly the entire system, but if I make this post longer no one will read it. :yelsick:
Within my lifetime I hope to be part of making this a reality. Research now, advocating as a lawyer later
Well, I suppose considering the outcome, the only thing we can be sure of is any thinking was flawed.
NO2 or other gases could be pumped into each cell without guards being put at risk due to the confined area, and the prisoner would not need to be subdued physically.
I can see how that might potentially be kinder than physical force...but it also raises worrying questions about the prinoer's human rights.
NO2 or other gases could be pumped into each cell without guards being put at risk due to the confined area, and the prisoner would not need to be subdued physically.
We Germans did that during the war...
I can see how that might potentially be kinder than physical force...but it also raises worrying questions about the prinoer's human rights.
I still say that some prisoners should have their "human rights" revoked.
Rights don't come from other people. We're BORN with them. They are immutable and unalienable. They can't be "revoked" anymore than you can revoke someone's gravity.
I still say that some prisoners should have their "human rights" revoked.
It's been said you can judge a civilisation on how well it treats its prisoners. That they have committed apalling crimes does not stop them being human.
Rights don't come from other people. We're BORN with them. They are immutable and unalienable. They can't be "revoked" anymore than you can revoke someone's gravity.
But they sure can be trod upon.
Very true. They can be violated, but they can't be taken away, given away, bought, sold, or traded.
Rights don't come from other people. We're BORN with them. They are immutable and unalienable. They can't be "revoked" anymore than you can revoke someone's gravity.
That's one hell of -right there- Radar.
Your "pods" disgust me 9th. Too much CO2 is bad for you and can kill you.....it also keeps oxygen and blood flow from reaching the brain and can cause severe brain damage. Your form of "rehabilitation" would handicap them indefinitely- that is after they got out of your futuristic Iron Maiden. If they ever got out. It's hard to prove your DNA evidence and/or appeal your case if you are in a goddamned coffin built at a cyber punk-rave.
If you are going to insist that people lie/stand in coffins please at least kill them first.
You act like we are working with an infallible justice system.........this is making me angry. What an astonishingly terrible idea.
Shame on you.
And you know what? I always respected you on this board. Where in the hell is this coming from? Must be a very dark place.
Reading for comprehension
Each inmate would spend their days in a small number of interconnected rooms, perhaps with a combined area of twice to three times a typical cell now.
Hardly a "futuristic Iron Maiden".
NO2 or other gases could be pumped into each cell without guards being put at risk due to the confined area, and the prisoner would not need to be subdued physically.
As an alternative to wading into them with clubs and tazers, when they have to be subdued.
I think you're misinterpreting that image cicero, that's a screencap from the movie Minority Report. If you haven't seen it, the prisons of the future are actually something like cryostasis. The tubes feed, bath, and monitor the health of inmates while they are in a comatose-like state. Special suits also keep their bodies from withering away due to lack of movement. It's all futuretech, but it was one of the first things that got me thinking about alternative prison types.
the prisons of the future are actually something like cryostasis. The tubes feed, bath, and monitor the health of inmates while they are in a comatose-like state.
What's the point of that? From the prisoner's point of view, they climb into the tank, sleep a bit, and then they climb out again and are set free. They don't experience the loss of freedom or the loss of time. There's little punishment there. Sure, society will benefit because the dangerous prisoners are kept out of society, but if the prisoners will be released again, there's no punishment component. Also no rehabilitation.
The prisons of the future should prepare the prisoner to be released back into society and give that prisoner the tools to succeed once that happens.
I should have prefaced the statement about prisons of the future with 'in the movie'. They did say something in the movie about stasis being 'like a 20 year nightmare', but you're right in that it does seem to lack a component of punishment. Then again, most of our sentences now are cut very short because of a lack of space. If you ended up waking up 15 years older for committing a burglary it might have more of an impact then you'd think. The 'punishment' would be sort of like society denying the prisoner an enormous chunk of his or her life. But again, no rehabilitation (not that the current system does it anyway).
Oh, I know we are talking about "in the movie" but the movie had the freedom to come up with a magical solution to the prison situation we have today, and in that magic, they found no room for preparing the prisoners to return to society. It's kind of telling that they gave so little thought to that, just like the system today gives so little thought to it. From a purely practical perspective, it's in society's best interests to make that the number one priority of the prison system for any prisoners who will eventually go free.
What's the point of that? From the prisoner's point of view, they climb into the tank, sleep a bit, and then they climb out again and are set free. They don't experience the loss of freedom or the loss of time. There's little punishment there. Sure, society will benefit because the dangerous prisoners are kept out of society, but if the prisoners will be released again, there's no punishment component. Also no rehabilitation.
The prisons of the future should prepare the prisoner to be released back into society and give that prisoner the tools to succeed once that happens.
You wake up and everyone you know is either really old or dead. You can't communicate well, have no cultural references, etc. and if yourj brain were active the whole time, it would really suck.
You wake up and everyone you know is either really old or dead. You can't communicate well, have no cultural references, etc. and if yourj brain were active the whole time, it would really suck.
It would also likely remove from already dangerously out of control psyches, what societal strictures they had kept hold of. If their familes and friends are long gone, what reason do they have for compliance in any societal norms? Their reference point and support network (which carries with it its own notions of acceptable behaviour) would be gone.
Reading for comprehension
Hardly a "futuristic Iron Maiden".
As an alternative to wading into them with clubs and tazers, when they have to be subdued.
I was commenting on the photo from that future crime movie and connecting it with his verbiage.
Thanks Bruce. Hey! I can read and look at petty pitures.
:thumb:
Why did he post the picture and say he was "working towards it" when it contradicted his description?
This is less a "reading comprehension" problem than a "sorting through contradictory information" problem, IE a "posting clearly" problem.
Kind of like what I was trying to say....torture, brain damaging, time suspending, and once again......no rehabilitation. Can we put "correctional" back in the term "correctional facility"? No. There's a part of us that wants to punish, for the punished to be marked, and criminal forever?
Sorry for taking what you said too heavy 9th, but CO2 causes too much brain damage. Look at the after effects of Carbon Monoxide poisoning and you get the same symptomatic problems. Yes, even death.
Maybe we can try something that serves decent results rather than a mobius strip of crime, torture, and incompetency.
I'm confused as to where your references to CO2 keep coming from. I mentioned NO2 (nitrous oxide) in my post as one possibility of sedation in the case of a violent inmate.
I suppose I did leave a logic gap between my two posts. The first was a description of something we could implement with current technology levels that directly addressed a short list of specific issues within the current system, but certainly not all. The second was a look at the far future with technology that won't be viable for another 20-40 years. I also should have clarified the specific use of storage type prisons. I can't realistically see it being the best option except in cases like extremely high risk or violent offenders who are serving very long sentences. If someone is serving 40-life then no matter what you do, by the time they step back onto the street (if ever) they will know nothing but prison life and society no matter what you try to teach them inside. Rehabilitation is essentially pointless there.
The prisons of the future should prepare the prisoner to be released back into society and give that prisoner the tools to succeed once that happens.
How would they do that? Specifically.
So you would do it, if we had the technology, today? If so, doesn't that negate the discussion about the two different things you were posting about, and return us to justifying the scenario that a lack of technology alone prevents you from advocating?
It's still what could be done now and what might be done in the future as separate possibilities.
As outlined by a lengthy text description, coupled with a disconnected image that relates to a concept which is not explained at all. Confusing.
I'm confused as to where your references to CO2 keep coming from. I mentioned NO2 (nitrous oxide) in my post as one possibility of sedation in the case of a violent inmate.
I suppose I did leave a logic gap between my two posts. The first was a description of something we could implement with current technology levels that directly addressed a short list of specific issues within the current system, but certainly not all. The second was a look at the far future with technology that won't be viable for another 20-40 years. I also should have clarified the specific use of storage type prisons. I can't realistically see it being the best option except in cases like extremely high risk or violent offenders who are serving very long sentences. If someone is serving 40-life then no matter what you do, by the time they step back onto the street (if ever) they will know nothing but prison life and society no matter what you try to teach them inside. Rehabilitation is essentially pointless there.
Ooooh. It's not as as bad as I thought..........Just Nitrous. Nitrous
good- rehabilitation
pointless......
9th, where were you when I was 19?!?
lol!!!
Ya know what? Where did CO2 come from? I am kind of busy- sorry
9th sometimes I'm a skimmer....
Rehabilitation runs deeper than current fads and trends...you can be rehabilitated and not know jack about myspace. It's the difference between learning how to use a computer and stealing one. I wouldn't ever say rehabilitation is ever pointless for anyone.
That includes myself.....using the true definition rehabilitation I'm sure there are things even I could use rehabilitation for.
I still don't think your pods would serve a purpose. I think it's cruel, unusual, and pointless. Yes, again, like a futuristic Iron Maiden. Just because the scars are psychological doesn't make them scars any less.
How would they do that? Specifically.
I don't know. But we were talking in terms of a sf movie that takes place in the future, so maybe if they adjusted the tachyon pulses so they were out of phase with the nanotube delivery system, the pulses could stimulate the neocortex of the prisoners and cause a behavioral modification. Something like that.
If we were to talk about the prison system today, I'm still no expert, but I would start by separating the violent criminals from the rest, and then put the rest in a vocational education program. A substance abuse program would probably be a good idea for most as well. The violent ones are a little trickier. They shouldn't be released back into society if they are still violent. If that means throwing away the key, then so be it. But even the violent ones should have an attempt made to rehabilitate them. That might mean talk therapy while in prison or some other therapy to try to straighten them out followed by a vocational training once they are no longer violent. We spend enough money per prisoner already. Spending a bunch more to rehabilitate them might just lower the recidivism rate down to the point where we would save money in the long run.
I don't see how torturing a prisoner and then releasing them back into society will prevent future crimes any more than what happens now. If you tell and show someone that society hates them, that person will be more likely to fight back and rebel against society.
Working to get the criminals to be productive members of society should be the goal of prisons and not to keep them away from society for a length of time just so they come out hating society even more than they came in. A lot of prisons have many books for prisoners to read and learn (some are actually being banned now) and if we expand on that, some good could actually come out of the prison system instead of what we have now. It will be much more work and there will be failures but I actually see some worth in doing this as opposed to 9th's plan.
The second was a look at the far future with technology that won't be viable for another 20-40 years.
Oh that's so sweet...you define 20-40 years as far future. Aww bless.
I don't see how torturing a prisoner and then releasing them back into society will prevent future crimes any more than what happens now.
It won't... kill them now.
Working to get the criminals to be productive members of society should be the goal of prisonsand not to keep them away from society for a length of time just so they come out hating society even more than they came in.
In order for criminals to become productive members of society, they must want to do so. We can talk with them, provide counselors to give them a chance to work out issues or grudges, but unless you can get them to want it, you might as well set fire to your money. If you had to make some educated guesses about what makes a person not want to be a productive member of society, what would you say pierce?
As for the length of prison term, how would altering that affect how they view society? If a person is so delusional that doing the time for their crime makes them hate their victims even more, then we're screwed. If we don't punish them, they continue to commit crimes. If we punish them, they get out and commit worse crimes. Your only option would be to either execute them or lock them up and forget about them.
It will be much more work and there will be failures but I actually see some worth in doing this as opposed to 9th's plan.
I need to hear the answer to one main question. How do you see the majority of criminals and prisoners? Are they misguided delinquents who are misguided and can be 'shown the light' of honest labor and contribution to society? Do you see them as stupid clods who never learned where to draw the line and need to be reeducated? What about people of normal intelligence who know what they're doing and see it as a lifestyle?
How do you see the majority of criminals and prisoners?
They are generally people who have committed crimes. Beyond that it's hard to generalise when you are talking about somany individuals.
How do you see the majority of criminals and prisoners?
I think drug abuse is the main problem the majority (or if not majority then a very large portion) have. They are drug addicts who committed crimes to support their habit. They are drug dealers who are trying to live their misguided version of the American dream. I think for many, possibly most, of the prisoners in this country, a drug rehab program is a huge part of the solution.
I think drug abuse is the main problem the majority (or if not majority then a very large portion) have. They are drug addicts who committed crimes to support their habit. They are drug dealers who are trying to live their misguided version of the American dream. I think for many, possibly most, of the prisoners in this country, a drug rehab program is a huge part of the solution.
Yep- right on Glatt. Except, as in the case of my brother, he is disabled with a severe mental disability and he keeps getting picked up and taken to jail instead of a nuthouse where he could get treated for it. He is a severe paranoid schizophrenic. His "crimes" are benign...his handicaps are severe.
Our jails are full of addicts and mentally handicapped people or a combination thereof.
Whaddaya know...they are 10 times worse when they get out. Why? Because people like my brother weren't a damned criminal in the first place, handicapped, and sent to a hostile environment. He can't even put it together for his own defense!!! He's guilty always by reason of insanity even when he's innocent. He cannot even communicate his own innocence! Because he doesn't know what happened!!!!
The crazy guy obviously started the trouble......bullshit. He has actually been bullied, victimized, and can't even comprehend his own innocence nor voice it in some situations. Off to jail with ya- just because you are the one that's obviously broken. Has nothing to do with the events or facts....he just seems like he needs to be locked up.....I know they are thinking- he must be on some heavy shit...
No...
he's handicapped....
I also know a guy that was a little slow.....he kept getting picked up for over-reacting in his own defense, he wasn't so stupid that he didn't
know that people were making fun of him and a lot of assholes were....instead of delivering him to a costly facility- they kept taking him to jail too.
Instead of hitting the people that were being jerks he would hit a news stand or something else out of impotent rage.....I think the people making fun of him should have gone to jail instead. Talk about baiting someone weaker until they over-react just cuz ya can. Fuck 'tards......
Christ, Cicero you must have very little faith in the judicial system by now.
In order for criminals to become productive members of society, they must want to do so. We can talk with them, provide counselors to give them a chance to work out issues or grudges, but unless you can get them to want it, you might as well set fire to your money.
And you don't think many criminals wouldn't want to be a productive member of society if they had the chance? As Dana pointed out, you are generalizing all criminals into one group which is about as far from the truth as you can get. Some people, I actually know one person that almost did this, commit crimes out of desperation and are very moral people when they are not pushed to the edge and others turn to drug dealing because it is more profitable than working a minimum wage job. Are these people bad, no, just that they just choose a life of crime because a life without crime is not reasonable or worth it.
If you had to make some educated guesses about what makes a person not want to be a productive member of society, what would you say pierce?
Hopelessness, social environment, and that a life of crime is more reasonable and profitable for the non-anti social people. Anti-social behavior can not be changed so you have to a separate group fro that. This starts to get into the topic of how poverty affects crime levels.
As for the length of prison term, how would altering that affect how they view society?
I never said change the length of time.
If a person is so delusional that doing the time for their crime makes them hate their victims even more, then we're screwed.
It is how they are doing time, not the actual process of being punished for crimes. If you look at prisoners right now, many are turning to religious extremism as a way to make their lives worthwhile. That gives a very good insight about how criminals view their lives, hopelessness usually, and if you take away that hopelessness, things can change for the better. If you take two people that committed the same crime with the same social background prior to the criminal activity and lock them up, one with a feeling of hopelessness and one with a feeling that you can get back on your feet if you choose too when released, the outcome of the two people will most certainly be different when they are both let out. What I am proposing is to change prisons from a general feeling of hopelessness to rehabilitation so they can back on track when they leave and you have not addressed that point. Of course some people will not choose to change, but separation of those two groups should be relatively easy and those two groups can get separate punishments.
If we don't punish them, they continue to commit crimes. If we punish them, they get out and commit worse crimes. Your only option would be to either execute them or lock them up and forget about them.
You are making an assumption that those are the only two options...
I need to hear the answer to one main question. How do you see the majority of criminals and prisoners? Are they misguided delinquents who are misguided and can be 'shown the light' of honest labor and contribution to society? Do you see them as stupid clods who never learned where to draw the line and need to be reeducated? What about people of normal intelligence who know what they're doing and see it as a lifestyle?
You can't clump all criminals into one group or even a majority because there probably isn't a majority. There are very smart criminals that have chosen a life a crime because it suit them best, some are stupid clots, some are anti-social (
link to article on real anti-social behavior) in nature and are hopeless to reeducate, some are misguided, some are there because of accidents and so on. There should be a system to separate the ones that can be helped from the ones that can't and work on both groups separately.
The best thing we could do for the prison system would be to decriminalized illegal drugs.
There are also, as Cicero pointed out, many people in prison who by rights should have been given psychiatric care at some stage and indeed many who have. A lot of people are in prison because they are simply not equipped to deal with things that most of us deal with routinely. Such as the guy who understood he was being taunted but didn't have the capacity to deal with it in a societally acceptable way.
There is also a much higher rate of illiteracy amongst the prison population than amongst the general population. There is a recognised pattern where a child living in a chaotic environment (generally speaking poverty makes for a chaotic and insecure existence) or with dyslexia, finds themself falling behind their peers at school. This is a particularly bad problem amongst boys. They quickly learn to mask their inability with 'bad' behaviour, get bored in lessons because they're no longer able to follow it, and act up even more. This is often then followed by truancy and a sense of social dislocation.
Many of these lads end up in trouble very young. We see more and more 12 and 13 year olds entering the judicial system and the profile I just gave you accounts for a ridiculously high proportion of them. A friend of mine (my ex team-leader) teaches literacy/basic skills in Strangeways Prison (one of our more notorious facilities in Manchester). Most of the lads she deals with have very low literacy levels, with several being unable even to recognise their names on a register (a standard pre-entry level test).
It's hard to live in the modern world if you cannot read or write adequately. How do you fill out a job application form? How do you access health care? The stigma attached those with literacy problems is huge. They've often spent their entire life being told either by parents, teachers or fellow pupils that they are stupid or 'thick'. Much of the world is closed to you if you cannot read above the level of a seven year old.
If on top of this difficulty you are surrounded by a culture that holds a tacit acceptance of some types of crime and violence (the subcultures that exist in grey little pockets of wealthy countries) being drawn into that as a way of navigating the world, and possibly commanding the respect of your fellows is as likely as not.
Add to that the many people who fill western jails for minor crimes which cause nobody any physical harm or endangerment and really, it is difficult to come up with picture that the majority of prisoners adhere to.
And you don't think many criminals wouldn't want to be a productive member of society if they had the chance?
Most do have the opportunity, both before they went to jail and again afterwards. I'm talking about convincing the people who have decided to turn to crime because of more money/fewer responsibilities or whatever. I'm not talking about those who no possibility of ever being part of society which are basically the ones with severe disorders that need a separate facility.
commit crimes out of desperation and are very moral people when they are not pushed to the edge
These people are not an issue at all. I'd be willing to bet that a prison system full of them would be a walk in the park to manage.
As for hopelessness, I'm not sure of the details but don't we already offer life management advise and such to inmates in all but maximum security? You can't just 'take away' someone's hopelessness with positive talk. You can offer a library and online courses to those willing to make a change in their life but that's about it.
I'd be willing to debate the issue of decriminalizing drugs from a practical perspective, but we'll need a new thread for that. I won't say where I stand on it in here to avoid a drift.
Separation is a good idea, and would go a very long way towards solving lots of problems. It's probably extremely hard to do in real life, but that's partially why I think prisons should not be built around large common areas. I have a tiny bit more on this in a different thread I think.
Most do have the opportunity, both before they went to jail and again afterwards.
An opportunity and a realistic opportunity are much different things.
I'm talking about convincing the people who have decided to turn to crime because of more money/fewer responsibilities or whatever. I'm not talking about those who no possibility of ever being part of society which are basically the ones with severe disorders that need a separate facility.
So you realize that the fault is within society and not the individual? And don't respond with that choice crap, be very careful when you judge an individual without any idea of the pressures to make the decision that he or she made.
That is one reason why my view of prisons will never be possible for a long time because one, it is more reasonable to go to a life of crime for some people than it is to follow the law and two, inner city society is a breeding group for criminal activity and that is institutionalized.
In order for my idea to reach its full potential, the two problems I have stated would have to be fixed first and that is why prisons are not my main concern right now.
As for hopelessness, I'm not sure of the details but don't we already offer life management advise and such to inmates in all but maximum security? You can't just 'take away' someone's hopelessness with positive talk. You can offer a library and online courses to those willing to make a change in their life but that's about it.
Just because you have something doesn't mean they are even close to its highest potential.
As for hopelessness, I'm not sure of the details but don't we already offer life management advise and such to inmates in all but maximum security? You can't just 'take away' someone's hopelessness with positive talk. You can offer a library and online courses to those willing to make a change in their life but that's about it.
Of course another thing you could do to tackle hopelsssness is not cram them into overcrowded cells, feed them poorly, and turn a blind eye to the bullying, phsyical intimidation, violence, humiliation and rape. You could also make sure the people guarding them aren't sadists. Many good people work in prisons, but many are also attracted to the job because its a power trip. Whatever their crime and whatever people think about their deserved punishment, the plain facts are that prisoners are one of society's most vulnerable groups. They are confined and under the direct power of other human beings 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. If they are being subjected to bullying and physical attack, what really can they do?
It would probably also alleviate hopelessness if such policies as 'three strikes and you're out' were shoved up the arses of the people who dreamt them up.
An opportunity and a realistic opportunity are much different things.
Explain why you think most people in the prison system have no 'realistic' chance of normalcy. I originally said most, you haven't clarified further yet.
So you realize that the fault is within society and not the individual?
Hells no, absolutely not. The individual must
always be responsible for his or her actions, if that were to change then I could tie the Constitution and Bill of Rights into knots three ways to sunday.
judge an individual without any idea of the pressures to make the decision that he or she made
I have no ability to empathize or to even have knowledge of a group I'm not a member of? That doesn't fly in other discussions, and it doesn't fly here either. I can empathize with a great deal of many problems people face. If I see a man charged with assault after walking in on the other man sleeping with his wife, I can empathize with the pain and rage that he was feeling.
Just because you have something doesn't mean they are even close to its highest potential.
Now we're sitting in limbo land. There's no way to pursue that unless you say why they're not effective right now. If it was because of your two previous statements then we've reached a conclusion. You say that the prison system cannot perform its ideal function until two of the largest and most embedded problems in society are fixed, and I agree with you. I believe that we can make improvements on the current system in the meantime, and I'm sure you'd probably agree to that as well.
snip~
If you look at prisoners right now, many are turning to religious extremism as a way to make their lives worthwhile. ~snip
And it carries a lot of weight with the parole board.
Explain why you think most people in the prison system have no 'realistic' chance of normalcy. I originally said most, you haven't clarified further yet.
You basically have a scarlet letter to carry for the rest of your life. It is much harder to gain employment, the psychological effects of being in jail and being separated from friends and family for so long, and there are many smaller effects it has on a person. Many of the people that are in jail never had a great chance for employment opportunities in the first place and now it is even harder for them to get a job.
Hells no, absolutely not. The individual must always be responsible for his or her actions, if that were to change then I could tie the Constitution and Bill of Rights into knots three ways to sunday.
Even when it serves the individual's best interest to commit crime? I don't think you understand, or care, about the catch 22 a lot of people are in. They are fucked if they don't live a life of crime and if they don't want to live paycheck to paycheck with no stability or hope for the future, they have to break the law with extreme consequences.
I have no ability to empathize or to even have knowledge of a group I'm not a member of? That doesn't fly in other discussions, and it doesn't fly here either. I can empathize with a great deal of many problems people face. If I see a man charged with assault after walking in on the other man sleeping with his wife, I can empathize with the pain and rage that he was feeling.
Do you have any empathy for the catch 22 a lot of people are in?
Now we're sitting in limbo land. There's no way to pursue that unless you say why they're not effective right now. If it was because of your two previous statements then we've reached a conclusion. You say that the prison system cannot perform its ideal function until two of the largest and most embedded problems in society are fixed, and I agree with you. I believe that we can make improvements on the current system in the meantime, and I'm sure you'd probably agree to that as well.
Yes, I believe we can make small improvements but I'm guessing our idea of improvements are different.
And it carries a lot of weight with the parole board.
I don't think that is the kind of religious they were thinking of because some religious books are being banned from jails.
http://www.mndaily.com/articles/2007/09/12/72163315Christ, Cicero you must have very little faith in the judicial system by now.
Actually after editing law-books, manuals, and online resources for a living, compounded with getting to see things in my personal life as they play out...I would say I have absolutely no faith and not only that-no proof that the judicial system works. Excuse me, I mis-spoke, it only works for a small segment of the population...who it was fashioned to protect.
Ha Ha! One of my favorite comedians dropped out of pre-law. Had to get a sense of humor first I suppose.
:D
The three most terrible words in the english language: Trial By Jury
http://www.apple.com/trailers/universal/letsgotoprison/I can offer a similar one:
Closed Tribunal
I would say I have absolutely no faith and not only that-no proof that the judicial system works. Excuse me, I mis-spoke, it only works for a small segment of the population...who it was fashioned to protect.
I have a similar orientation to the way my country deals with asylum. It really doesn't take a lot of interraction with the asylum and appeals process to see that system is fundamentally and desperately flawed, and geared primarily to the denial of asylum. I'm not going to go into the details of why because i would just end up in a three page rant. But even the stuff that's put there to safeguard and provide for them during their wait (given it's ilegal for them to work) is deeply, and deliberately problematic. But most importantly, the bare faced denial of proof that in the judicial system would be considered sound, as a mechanism for denying asylum, just robs me of any faith in the system as a means of identifying refugees (the planet's most vulnerable group). And the routine use of fear as a way of keeping them off balance. I am deeply shamed by the way my country treats those who run to us. I've verged into a rant there...I'll try to contain it. I know for a fact that many asylum seekers are mentally and sometimes physically brutalised by the system they have to navigate. Far too many.
I get the impression, despite the raging arguments over illegal Mexican immigrants, that the USA does not treat refugees and desperate strangers so shamefully as my country does. Am I right or wrong in that impression?
I get the impression, despite the raging arguments over illegal Mexican immigrants, that the USA does not treat refugees and desperate strangers so shamefully as my country does. Am I right or wrong in that impression?
I live right by a Somalian neighborhood which is made up of a lot of immigrants/refugees to escape the violence and it is basically just segregated from the rest of the city. They don't really mess with other people's business and no one really messes with their's (at least from what I've seen, I could be way off).
It is labeled a bad neighborhood but if you go down the main street it is actually pretty cool, feels like an entirely different country.
The topic of this thread is actually about an immigrant and her son. Not sure if that helps.
Not sure if she was targeted because of it.
Oh I daresay many face problems, but I am talking about systemised brutality.
Example: In one of the holding centres where those who are considered a 'risk' in terms of vanishing into the underworld are housed (and some who've been marked for deportation) often for weeks or months at a time, it would appear at first glance to be a pretty reasonable place. OK, it has fences and bars, it's institutional in character and the inmates can't leave; but there are facilities within to create a self contained environment (a barbers, a recreation area etc).
What a first glance won't show you is the fact that the wardens routinely use 'physical restraint' and abusive, racist language. Inmates caught "Fence Watching" are deemed an escape risk and are put into the extra secure unit along with the suicide risks. Given that the compound is surrounded by fencing, the act of "Fence Watching" is very difficult to avoid: it basically consitutes looking in the direction of the fence for more than a few minutes. If you are outside, bored and staring into space, you could find yourself confined in, effectively a secure cell.
At nights the lights are left on in the cells/dorms. The inmates sleep with their blankets over their faces to block out the light. Because of a number of suicides, the guards check on all the inmates every half hour, throughout the night. They do this by pulling the blanket away and tapping, the inmates forehead with their forefinger...thereby waking them. Every half hour.
Now, the 'Fence Watching' thing is generally only applied to particular ethnic groups, though that's not how it's recorded. It's recorded in terms of particularly high escape risks, but they decide who is likely to be a high escape risk based on certain criteria: if you are a young Eastern European male (particularly if you are Romany ) then you are considered by the guards a high risk.
The blame for such 'failures' is laid at the door of those guarding the inmates. But there is a woeful lack of will, in the department which governs over them, to resolve the problem.
The half hourly wakenings is something a good friend of mine was subjected to for three and a half weeks. He is a very gentle and quiet man, who if you met him would seem much younger than his 31 years, but who has a kind of quiet grace. He was in that centre because of a mix up between his name and another similarly named asylum seeker who had run out of appeals. The wardens spoke to him like he was the worst kind of criminal and the most stupid child. He was pushed, shoved and strip searched after every visit he received from family, friends or solicitor. He had lost a great deal of weight when he came out and suffered from night terrors for months after. He then sank into a deep depression and ended up on anti-depressants and sleeping tablets.
He is an asylum seeker. If you had to guess, what do you imagine his previous experiences of police, prisons and government officials had hitherto been? Now, it was eventually sorted out and the mistake 'rectified'. He was released....and another man with a similar name was pulled in. Failed in his appeals, but nonetheless as likely as not to have unpleasant associations with police and government authority. He'll be woken up every half hour through the night, given sly punches when the guards know the cctv isn't covering that part of the corridor, and spoken to like he's utterly and fundamentally worthless. And he will be entirely at the mercy of people who have no sympathy for the terror and torture he may have experienced in other jails in another country.
If he's lucky the country he is supposed to be removed to will be deemed unsafe by both the Foreign Office and the Home Office and he will spend many months in the detention facility. If he's really lucky, the country is safe and he is not being returned into danger. If he's unlucky the Foreign Office and the Home Office will contradict each other and he may find himself returned to a very dangerous place, where his particular group are in particularly high danger (as happened with quite a few Iraqi refugees).
Sorry....I did the ranting thing again huh?
Dunbar rape suspect pleads guilty, gets 20 years
Monday, November 26, 2007
WEST PALM BEACH — A 16-year-old charged in the Dunbar Village gang rape agreed to spend 20 years in prison and testify against his friends to avoid three potential life sentences.
Jakaris Taylor was the first of four teenagers to accept a plea deal with prosecutors, but offers are on the table for the other three teenagers who are in jail awaiting trial. Taylor pleaded guilty to burglary and two counts of armed sexual battery while wearing a mask in the June 18 assault. He will get credit for the 130 days he already served in solitary confinement, according to the deal. He will also be branded a sexual predator. His lawyer, Chris Haddad, said Taylor is "a pretty bright kid" who wants a chance to have a family when he is released, likely in his early to mid-30s. "He has expressed remorse and regret for even being there," Haddad said. Assistant state attorney Lanna Belohlavek said the 35-year-old woman who was gang raped and forced to have sex with her 12-year-old son was consulted. And she was satisfied with the terms of the deal before it was signed on Monday, Belohlavek said.
"She's hoping by having this defendant testify against the others, she won't have to — nor will her son have to — go through the trauma of reliving it," Belohlavek said. But, she added, "They're willing to do what they need to do to see justice." Belohlavek said prosecutors considered Taylor's age of 15 at the time of attack, the lack of DNA evidence against him and his relatively limited role in the assault. His fingerprint was found inside the victim's apartment, while DNA linked other defendants to the home, Belohlavek said. She said she would not discuss plea deals involving other defendants unless they are approved and signed. A lawyer for one of the co-defendants said all four teenagers have been offered deals, and they're all different.
Robert Gershman said his client, Nathan Walker Jr., 17, was offered a plea that included more time in prison than Taylor was given. He declined to discuss specifics, and Walker has not made a decision. "You always have to consider it," he said.
Walker is scheduled for a court hearing today to discuss trial preparation including money for DNA tests, Gershman said.
The other defendants are Avion Lawson, 14, and Tommy Poindexter, 18. Up to six others involved in the attack have not been arrested.
According to Taylor's plea deal, his sentencing is deferred until Nov. 26 of next year to give him time to fulfill the terms of the agreement. If he does not testify truthfully against current or future defendants in the Dunbar case, the deal will be voided. Taylor gave a taped statement on Nov. 18, but it has not yet been made public.
Mayor Lois Frankel released a statement praising the state attorney's office and the police for doing a thorough investigation. She said she trusts the prosecutor's judgment that the deal was appropriate. The lurid details of the Dunbar Village attack turned the case into national news. The teenage attackers allegedly held the victims at gunpoint, poured chemicals on them and forced them to perform various sexual acts during three hours of torture. Taylor's mother could not be reached to talk about her son's fate because she is in Palm Beach County Jail. Jacqueline Minor, 34, has been incarcerated since Nov. 15 on $6,000 bond on charges of vehicle theft and driving on a suspended license. Reached Monday, Greg Lawson said his cousin Avion Lawson had heard Taylor was working out a deal and was mulling similar options.
"I don't even think they know what they (are) in. They don't know what all that time means. ... I would call that life," said Lawson, who was subpoenaed to be a witness in the case. "I'm worried about all of them." Staff writer Kathleen Chapman contributed to this story.
Interesting - the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Would he have committed this crime if he had been raised in a different environment?
Sad - this kid who plead out will be out of jail in 20 years (possibly less) knowing nothing of life but how to be a better criminal when he gets out.
Even when it serves the individual's best interest to commit crime?
I'm curious, when is that, long-run?
I can't wait for this.
Nature vs. Nurture smurf? I don't think stealing cars amounts to having a young rapist son. I think it's a very clever excuse however. I can't believe this thread is back...I was trying hard to forget about it...