Playing "Crash/Ride" Beats...

This is a big thing now. Once upon a time, time was kept on closed high-hats. Then slushy hats, then open hats, and finally, as there's nowhere else to go, tracks are now being recorded with a full-on crash cymbal as the timekeeper.

You know, "Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash, Bash" ...

This might come off in the studio, or in a stadium, but in a small-to-medium-sized room, I just cringe at using this ridiculously high dynamic level. I used to simulate this sound with smaller crash cymbals, but they lose their stick definition as a trade-off for the lesser volume. I tried crashing my ride, but that's even more wash and even less stick definition.

I think I found something that works, but I'm not sure how it sounds to the audience (I'm playing in a plexiglass booth, mic'd over the PA, to a church service in a converted gymnasium... and yes, it's a very contemporary service):

I lay the shoulder of the stick into the bow (not the edge) of an 18" crash. Plenty of wash, plenty of bombast, but not tinnitis-inducing volume. To feel that the time is still being kept (they probably use a click track in the studio when they record stuff like this) I play a stepped high-hat note with every crashed 8th note. So it's a big wash with a clear note underneath.

"Wash, Wash, Wash, Wash, Wash, Wash, Wash, Wash"
+ "chick, chick, chick, chick, chick, chick, chick, chick"

Wow! And I thought drumming was just whack, whack, whack, bam.

Well, stop listening to the White Stripes.

The White Stripes are excellent!

Undertoad, I'd be interested in a bass player's perspective:
...if the album has a "crash-ride beat" what do you like to hear live? I know you've done covers...

do you think the white sripes have a bad drummer? i dont. my friend does. cuz he read it in rolling stone. but i feeeeel it

Meg does suck, but the music is written around her sucking. When you simplify, you emphasize other aspects of the music, which is part of the point of rock and/or roll.

I don't think I've done anything with a full on crash like that. The closest is probably Baba O'Reilly. My current drummer comes from a metal attitude, is usually too loud for the room anyway and we wind up playing very loud. I control his dynamics by leaning over when we go to a soft section. This is my only beef with the guy because otherwise he is excellent. In particular his meter is perfect.

I guess the chorus of "All the Small Things" is crash on the beat. I hate it. My job is to play eighth notes the whole time. I hate songs like that. Live, I can't tell from dick because the stage monitor mix is usually a crap shoot and it's rare I have my own monitor anyway.

Undertoad;355959 wrote:

In particular his meter is perfect.

I'll bet that metronomic time was nice in the studio.

Undertoad;355960 wrote:

I guess the chorus of "All the Small Things" is crash on the beat. I hate it. My job is to play eighth notes the whole time. I hate songs like that. Live, I can't tell from dick because the stage monitor mix is usually a crap shoot and it's rare I have my own monitor anyway.

Nothing better than trying to sit on straight eighth notes,
when you're getting so much bounce-back from the PA that you don't know where the actual beat is.

We had 4 hours to record "25 or 6 to 4", in the loft of a barn, with a laptop and our own mics (the usual Shures, ideal for live, not usually used for recording).

The only way to do it was to use the electronic kit, and then record each of us one at a time.

He went first. And that was that. No click track needed. At the end they re-recorded the cymbals for some reason, but that was it, Chuck's work was done. That recording got us into the semi-finals, 16 out of what they told us was hundreds of entries!

I read that Dave Grohl, on a Queens of the Stone Age album, recorded the drums (skins) without the cymbals; then later tracked the cymbal parts, to get an ultra-discrete drum sound. Of course, in order to do this, he had to have the whole thing charted out.

Not entirely relevant, but your comment just reminded me of that.

Undertoad wrote:

... He went first. And that was that. No click track needed. ...

But did he nail it in one take?

Undertoad wrote:

... That recording got us into the semi-finals, 16 out of what they told us was hundreds of entries! ...

Excellent work. Must be a great sense of accomplishment.

Returning to the point of the thread, I guess the thing about crash beats is that they dominate so much of the song. It's one thing if you're insane, and want to demonstrate that ala Keith Moon. But it doesn't allow for as much of the rest of the song through. You would absolutely want a kick within the crash to serve as a stronger focus for the beat, that's a great idea.

A crash is a very imprecise beat for people. Interesting to consider that Moon required a very reliable partner in Entwistle, in order for the whole thing to work at all. And one could argue, and I would argue, that the Who was the least beat-oriented bands going. Which is why I myself don't really like them.