What do you KNOW?

Cloud • Jun 12, 2007 1:29 pm
--I know that people are capable of anything, from the ultimate evil to the ultimate good. So don't be surprised!

--I know that the IRS sucks!

--I know I love my children, and they love me.
wolf • Jun 12, 2007 2:08 pm
I know that I am smarter than nearly everyone else I have to deal with.

I also know that I just ended a sentence with a preposition, and I don't care.
Flint • Jun 12, 2007 2:13 pm
wolf;354093 wrote:
I know that I am smarter than nearly everyone else I have to deal with.
My wife told me that her mantra before group insurance enrollment meetings was "I'm smart, you're stupid... I'm smart, you're stupid..."
lumberjim • Jun 12, 2007 2:18 pm
[COLOR=black]I know.....lamp![/COLOR]
[COLOR=white][/COLOR]
[COLOR=white]I know it won;t be long until someone says that they know that they don't know more than they know. probably spex or bigv would be my guess.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#ffffff][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][/COLOR]
LabRat • Jun 12, 2007 2:41 pm
I know that The Cellar was a topic of discusion at my dinner table last night, and I enjoyed talking about it with my husband.
lumberjim • Jun 12, 2007 2:46 pm
laying plans for the next photo shoot????
Perry Winkle • Jun 12, 2007 3:02 pm
wolf;354093 wrote:

I also know that I just ended a sentence with a preposition, and I don't care.


Don't worry about it. Most prescriptivists that have any clue are dropping that rule.
HungLikeJesus • Jun 12, 2007 3:04 pm
wolf;354093 wrote:
I know that I am smarter than nearly everyone else I have to deal with.


wolf - that's interesting, because I think that everyone is smarter than me in some way.

It's not always easy to see what that way is, but it sure does keep me humble while I'm trying to figure it out.
jester • Jun 12, 2007 3:17 pm
i know, as stated somewhere else, that i am (at least in my town)
SURROUNDED BY COW TURDS!!!!!
Pie • Jun 12, 2007 3:18 pm
Well, I had no idea what "prescriptivists" are -- but now I know. :right:

I know that no matter what happens, I will be dissatisfied.
Shawnee123 • Jun 12, 2007 3:29 pm
I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know,
I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know,
I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know, I know
Ain't no sunshine when she's gone
HungLikeJesus • Jun 12, 2007 3:35 pm
Shawnee -- I think you put in one too many.

Also, I see you've changed your title. That's a good one.
Sundae • Jun 12, 2007 3:37 pm
They tried to make me go to rehab
I said know, know know
Shawnee123 • Jun 12, 2007 3:41 pm
I copied and pasted from a lyrics site...probably unreliable. I tried to do it in my head and lost track.
lumberjim • Jun 12, 2007 3:41 pm
HLJ;354132 wrote:
wolf - that's interesting, because I think that everyone is smarter than me in some way.

It's not always easy to see what that way is, but it sure does keep me humble while I'm trying to figure it out.

and this makes you better than them somehow? being humbler? the only true humility is to admit that you are better than everyone else and accept it. Only then can you deal honestly with them. Acting 'humbler' is an expression of superior humility. you cad.
HungLikeJesus • Jun 12, 2007 3:54 pm
lumberjim;354163 wrote:
and this makes you better than them somehow? being humbler? the only true humility is to admit that you are better than everyone else and accept it. Only then can you deal honestly with them. Acting 'humbler' is an expression of superior humility. you cad.


lumberjim -- I bow to your superior wisdom.

...
Thirty spokes meet at a nave;
Because of the hole we may use the wheel.
Clay is moulded into a vessel;
Because of the hollow we may use the cup.
Thus tools come from what exists,
But use from what does not.
...
Flint • Jun 12, 2007 3:56 pm
I think he might have just smacked you down, jumbo. But I can't quite figure it out.
freshnesschronic • Jun 12, 2007 5:03 pm
I know there are two season in Chicago. Winter and construction.
warch • Jun 12, 2007 5:13 pm
I know half and half taste better than skim milk in my coffee.

I know I will be come irritated if I talk about religion with my mother.
Sundae • Jun 12, 2007 5:15 pm
I know I am smarter than almost everyone I meet in my daily life
I know everyone I meet is happier and/ or more successful than me
I know I have to make big changes
jester • Jun 12, 2007 5:21 pm
I know that I'm always late for work

(they know it to)
lumberjim • Jun 12, 2007 5:51 pm
Flint;354175 wrote:
I think he might have just smacked you down, jumbo. But I can't quite figure it out.

It's from The Way
HLJ wrote:
Thirty spokes meet at a nave;
Because of the hole we may use the wheel.
Clay is moulded into a vessel;
Because of the hollow we may use the cup.
Thus tools come from what exists,
But use from what does not

Beck's translation is somewhat more literally stated. IMO:

Thirty spokes are united around the hub of a wheel,
but the usefulness of the wheel depends on the space where nothing exists.
Clay is molded into a vessel, but the usefulness of the vessel depends on the space where nothing exists.
Doors and windows are cut out of the walls of a house, and the usefulness of the house depends on the space where nothing exists.

Therefore take advantage of what exists, and use what does not exist.

The five colors blind the eyes;
the five musical tones deafen the ears;
the five flavors dull the taste.
Racing and hunting madden the mind.
Precious goods keep their owners on guard.

Therefore the wise satisfy the inner self rather than external senses. They accept the one and reject the other.
lumberjim • Jun 12, 2007 5:53 pm
HLJ;354172 wrote:
lumberjim -- I bow to your superior wisdom.


which, when taken in context of our earlier reparte, is very subtley saying that you think yourself wiser than I. well played. you just may be, at that.
Sundae • Jun 12, 2007 6:04 pm
Clay is molded into a vessel, but the usefulness of the vessel depends on the space where nothing exists.

I may use this as my sig.
My head is a vessel where nothing exists. Therefore it is important.
HungLikeJesus • Jun 12, 2007 6:08 pm
lumberjim;354249 wrote:
It's from The Way

Beck's translation is somewhat more literally stated. IMO...


Yes - I should have included a reference.

I feel Merel's translations are more poetic, but probably just because his version is the one that I read first.

I like the site to which you linked because of the alternate interpretations.
Undertoad • Jun 12, 2007 7:27 pm
They made up their minds
And they started packing
They left before the sun came up that day
An exit to eternal summer slacking
But where were they going without ever knowing the way?
They drank up the wine
And they got to talking
They now had more important things to say
And when the car broke down they started walking
Where were they going without ever knowing the way?
DucksNuts • Jun 12, 2007 7:52 pm
I know that no matter how obvious you make an insult, some people just dont get it.....what I dont know is, if that is sad or seriously amusing.
HungLikeJesus • Jun 12, 2007 8:02 pm
lumberjim;354250 wrote:
which, when taken in context of our earlier reparte, is very subtley saying that you think yourself wiser than I. well played. you just may be, at that.


I shall now call you 'humblerjim.'
lumberjim • Jun 12, 2007 8:04 pm
Undertoad;354272 wrote:
They made up their minds
And they started packing
They left before the sun came up that day
An exit to eternal summer slacking
But where were they going without ever knowing the way?
They drank up the wine
And they got to talking
They now had more important things to say
And when the car broke down they started walking
Where were they going without ever knowing the way?

i love that song
[youtube]b0wfu3tOrtQ[/youtube]
Urbane Guerrilla • Jun 12, 2007 8:33 pm
lumberjim;354122 wrote:
laying plans for the next photo shoot????



Jim, reel that big red tongue back in before Joan Rivers thinks Oscar Night came early this year and rushes onto the red carpet! Stiletto heels... owie...:p :eek: :thepain:
Urbane Guerrilla • Jun 12, 2007 8:40 pm
And I know more people who tell me somebody else thinks Iraq did it than I know somebodies who tell me they think Iraq did it.
BigV • Jun 12, 2007 9:43 pm
do they really count as actual discrete somebodies when their voices are all echoing inside the same skull though, that's the question.
Nightsong • Jun 13, 2007 12:23 am
I know that I could improve my life if I just applied myself. I'm smarter than this just too lazy to care.
I know I hate my job, but I also know it has a lot to do with coworkers.
I know I am smarter than I beleive but not as smart as I wish I was.
I also know (for a fact) that if you douse your lover with cold fruit juice just at the moment of orgasm, they scream even louder.
skysidhe • Jun 13, 2007 10:36 am
I know I can't tolerate religious and new age fanatics.
( not anyone on the net)

I know people who with their intellect profess to be enlightened but don't know themselves in their hearts enough to see themselves working from old tapes. They talk the talk but can't walk the walk and are too enlightened to take a good look at their own hearts.
I know they confuse me because they are a walking contradiction.

fargon • Jun 13, 2007 12:04 pm
I don't understand a quarter of what I know, but I know it takes 6 quarters to wash and dry a load of laundry.
Cicero • Jun 13, 2007 12:29 pm
I know I want my lover to scream but he doesn't.
I know I expect people to be smarter than I expect myself to be.
I know I don't dream anymore.
I know my youth is fading.....fast.
I also know that I'm jaded.
I know I'm using this spot as a confessional.
I know I feel better now.
And thank you.
elSicomoro • Jun 13, 2007 12:38 pm
fargon;354518 wrote:
I don't understand a quarter of what I know, but I know it takes 6 quarters to wash and dry a load of laundry.


Lucky you! It takes me about 10 or 12.
fargon • Jun 13, 2007 3:35 pm
sycamore;354535 wrote:
Lucky you! It takes me about 10 or 12.

I am lucky, I guess I will quit bitching about the .50 increase in price.
jester • Jun 14, 2007 4:02 pm
i'm bored
lumberjim • Jun 14, 2007 4:21 pm
DO THIS
jester • Jun 14, 2007 4:38 pm
lumberjim;355074 wrote:
DO THIS


i haven't clicked on "this" should i be afraid?
Shawnee123 • Jun 14, 2007 4:44 pm
Don't be afraid, but you'll need patience!
jester • Jun 14, 2007 4:50 pm
ooh, that was fun

5th try 14.306, finally 11th 21.74

this is a keeper
KateZ • Jun 14, 2007 11:50 pm
I know that music motivates me.
I know how to tie a cherry stem in a knot with my tongue.
I know how to play the trumpet.
I know all the words to Livin' on a Prayer.
I know a priest.
I know the alphabet backwards.
I know my hair will be curly tomorrow.
Cloud • Jun 15, 2007 12:00 am
I know a Bishop.
I know the alphabet in Spanish.

but the cherry thing? how is that even possible? I think it's a myth!
HungLikeJesus • Jun 15, 2007 12:18 am
A thousand years ago everybody knew as a fact, that the earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew that the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on it. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.
Urbane Guerrilla • Jun 15, 2007 2:52 am
BigV;354326 wrote:
do they really count as actual discrete somebodies when their voices are all echoing inside the same skull though, that's the question.


Which leads us to the question of should you, or could you, do what the voices in your head tell you if you can't make out a solitary word they're saying? :right:

And would you know if you had? :headshake
kerosene • Jun 21, 2007 10:29 pm
Cloud;355223 wrote:

but the cherry thing? how is that even possible? I think it's a myth!


No it isn't. I can do it, too.

I know I smoke too many cigarettes
I know my punctuation and capitalization are usually off.
I know I am dreadfully neurotic
I know at least one person truly likes/loves me
fargon • Jun 21, 2007 10:54 pm
That is a show we listen to on NPR Saturday afternoon.
fargon • Jun 21, 2007 10:58 pm
The vocies keep telling me to stop and load the guns.:shock: :apistola:
HungLikeJesus • Jun 21, 2007 11:24 pm
case;357661 wrote:
...I know I am dreadfully neurotic...


But what good artist isn't?
bluecuracao • Jun 21, 2007 11:41 pm
I know that I am easily amused...and those that disdain it are...crabbyasses.
Elspode • Jun 22, 2007 12:23 am
I know that I am living proof that personality and wit are more important than youth and looks any day.
Flint • Jun 22, 2007 12:49 am
HLJ;355231 wrote:
A thousand years ago everybody knew as a fact, that the earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew that the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on it. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow.

This is basically the idea behind Carl Sagan's book Pale Blue Dot (the "pale blue dot" is a picture of the Earth, taken from the edge of the Solar system, by Voyager 1). Sagan describes the stripping away our layers of anthropocentrism, as our persepctive is changed by new information.
KinkyVixen • Jun 22, 2007 1:02 am
I know that the movie Knocked Up is freaking hilarious!
HungLikeJesus • Jun 22, 2007 1:55 am
I'm pretty sure that if I keep riding my motorcycle at 100 mph something bad will happen.
wolf • Jun 22, 2007 2:28 am
I know that Interleague play in baseball at any time other than The World Series is an affront against God and Nature.
DucksNuts • Jun 22, 2007 6:35 am
I know that Vodka Mudshakes are the best drinks ever....


Well, I know that *right* now, coz I have had a heap of them :)
Ibby • Jun 22, 2007 7:45 am
I know I don't stand a chance with any of the really hot girls here at TAS...

...but I'm sure I'll have fun trying?
BigV • Jun 22, 2007 10:49 am
I don't think I know anything. I might be wrong about that, though.

I don't know.
LabRat • Jun 22, 2007 4:44 pm
I know that everytime in my life so far I thought I would never get through something, I always have.
theotherguy • Jun 22, 2007 4:59 pm
I know I want to go home right NOW.
I know there is something better out there than this job.
kerosene • Jun 22, 2007 8:46 pm
HLJ;357688 wrote:
But what good artist isn't?


Good? I have to be good? Oh great, now I am worrying again. ;)
kerosene • Jun 22, 2007 8:48 pm
HLJ;357739 wrote:
I'm pretty sure that if I keep riding my motorcycle at 100 mph something bad will happen.


Yeah, a traffic jam on I-70. :D
HungLikeJesus • Jun 23, 2007 3:03 pm
case;358048 wrote:
Yeah, a traffic jam on I-70. :D


Yes, it's always good to think of secondary consequences. I'll slow down.
skysidhe • Jun 23, 2007 3:08 pm
I know I need to get off my butt!
beauregaardhooligan • Jun 23, 2007 9:07 pm
All I know is everything I know is wrong.
I was right, everything I know *is* wrong!
Wait a minute,
that's wrong.
Right?
Sundae • Jun 23, 2007 9:14 pm
I know the cool kids are in Gabbly right now
The ones who are actually here I mean (plenty of cool kids not logged on)
Pie • Jun 23, 2007 9:33 pm
I know I'm going to get porked on the basis of my speeding ticket no matter what I do.

PS: Any advice on a 21-mph over the limit ticket from VA? I live in NJ and a 4-pointer might kill my rates. Should I show up in Botetourt County Court to plead my case? (First moving violation in 11 years of driving, I was driving a V6...)
xoxoxoBruce • Jun 23, 2007 11:04 pm
I've gotten many out of state speeding tickets and always pay them immediately. I've never heard a peep out of PA about them.
HungLikeJesus • Jun 24, 2007 8:35 pm
case;358048 wrote:
Yeah, a traffic jam on I-70. :D


You must be psychic:

DENVER - Denver Police say a motorcyclist was killed on I-70 Saturday night.

Police say the rider was speeding down I-70, near the Harlan Ramp, around 7 p.m.

Police say the motorcyclist lost control and hit a guardrail.

He was pronounced dead at the scene.

I-70 was closed for two-and-a-half hours because of the accident.
kerosene • Jun 24, 2007 9:27 pm
Woah, that is a little strange. I am sorry for the motorcyclist. :(
HungLikeJesus • Jun 25, 2007 12:03 am
Just to confirm, that was not me. I am still here - and if I smear myself on I70 I will personally let you know.
Flint • Jun 25, 2007 12:16 am
I see dead people.
Gaelic Ninja • Jun 25, 2007 2:31 am
I know that the Internet is serious business
Crimson Ghost • Jun 25, 2007 3:49 am
As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don't know
We don't know.

But... you have to remember...art is art...but on the other hand water is water...and east is east...and west is west...and if you stew cranberries like applesauce, they taste much more like prunes that rhubarb does...
Griff • Jun 25, 2007 7:02 am
xoxoxoBruce;358327 wrote:
I've gotten many out of state speeding tickets and always pay them immediately. I've never heard a peep out of PA about them.


I know that the little [strike]bribe[/strike] pocket on the old PA licences was the perfect place to keep extra beer money.
jester • Jun 25, 2007 9:54 am
I know it's a beautiful day in the neighborhood, today.;)
Uisge Beatha • Jun 25, 2007 11:04 am
I know i had a good time at the drink experiment party. :)

I also know I had too much to drink, too darn quickly. I proved I could still get hammered in a couple of hours and worry I was about to get sick. I'd like to apologize to SG, monster, Cloud and everybody else I didn't say goodbye to when I took off. :o
Clodfobble • Jun 25, 2007 6:50 pm
Crimson Ghost wrote:
As we know,
There are known knowns...


I keep seeing this Rumsfeld quote all over the place, as if it's supposed to make him foolish... but I have no problem with it, it's a completely accurate statement--and despite the logical complexity of it, he didn't even flub any of the words. Do people really not understand what he's saying, or do they just think it's funny to see the same word so many times in a sentence?
glatt • Jun 25, 2007 9:34 pm
Clodfobble;358776 wrote:
I keep seeing this Rumsfeld quote all over the place, as if it's supposed to make him foolish... but I have no problem with it, it's a completely accurate statement--and despite the logical complexity of it, he didn't even flub any of the words. Do people really not understand what he's saying, or do they just think it's funny to see the same word so many times in a sentence?


I think it's mildly amusing just because it's so convoluted. The first time I saw it posted, it was offered as an example of him being dumb. I listened carefully to it, and like you I thought he made sense. But he could have said that while we have some idea what's going on, we don't know it all. It would have been much simpler. I'm actually impressed that he said it with no mistakes. I'm not sure I could.
Happy Monkey • Jun 25, 2007 9:54 pm
Clodfobble;358776 wrote:
it's a completely accurate statement--
So is any tautology. He was running down the clock on the interview, saying nothing. Sorta like saying that he knew where the WMDs were - around Baghdad, or north, south, west, or east of it.

There, he was trying for a tautology, but got nabbed by the WMDs not actually existing. Sorta the only way he could have been wrong.
kerosene • Jun 25, 2007 10:56 pm
HLJ;358549 wrote:
Just to confirm, that was not me. I am still here - and if I smear myself on I70 I will personally let you know.


Glad to hear that.

By the way, have you noticed the odd but beautiful sunsets these last 2 nights? I walk outside and the light is a greenish gold.
zippyt • Jun 25, 2007 11:13 pm
I know there is Only 2 currently active Test Truck ( 65 K worth of truck for testing truck scales ) drivers in our shop out of a crew of 8 , this IS TOOOOO few , I have to drop what I am doing , drive 3-4 hours ONE WAY , load into the truck , drive it , do the job , then go BACK to what I was doing WAY TOOO OFTEN !!!!

WA ,WA ,BITCH , Moan ,CRY !!!!
Crimson Ghost • Jun 26, 2007 4:41 am
Clodfobble;358776 wrote:
I keep seeing this Rumsfeld quote all over the place, as if it's supposed to make him foolish... but I have no problem with it, it's a completely accurate statement--and despite the logical complexity of it, he didn't even flub any of the words. Do people really not understand what he's saying, or do they just think it's funny to see the same word so many times in a sentence?


I didn't post it to start a Rumsfeld discussion.
I posted it because the thread is called "What do you know?"
I found the Rumsfeld quote to be, at first glance, confusing, but if you thought about it for a moment, it makes perfect sense.
I now have it printed out and hanging above my desk.

I also used it to segue into the Groucho Marx quote, which, in and of itself, is absurdist logic in it's finest form.
HungLikeJesus • Jun 26, 2007 10:43 am
case;358844 wrote:
Glad to hear that.

By the way, have you noticed the odd but beautiful sunsets these last 2 nights? I walk outside and the light is a greenish gold.


Yes. We're in a canyon and the trees on the opposite side have been lit by that light.
LabRat • Jun 26, 2007 1:15 pm
I know I embarassed my boss today, because he turned deep scarlet :blush:

I invented a model of secondary brain injury that I dubbed the 'poke' model. (Will come up with something a little more scientific for the journal article) Anyhoo, my boss just came up to me and said " Are you available tomorrow for a poking?" I said, totally straight faced, "Yes, but I'll have to ask my husband if it's OK." He turned red and said "I probably wouldn't be wecome at your house anymore." I said, "As long as I got a raise after you would be". He got even redder. I made him forget what he was going to say, heh heh heh.

It was a hoot.
Cloud • Jun 26, 2007 2:38 pm
I know it's wrong to teach your children to hate.

I know it's wrong not to educate your girls.

I know it's wrong to execute a family member for "honor."
BigV • Jun 27, 2007 1:19 pm
From DoD website transcript, 06 June 2002

Q: Regarding terrorism and weapons of mass destruction, you said something to the effect that the real situation is worse than the facts show. I wonder if you could tell us what is worse than is generally understood.

Rumsfeld: Sure. All of us in this business read intelligence information. And we read it daily and we think about it and it becomes, in our minds, essentially what exists. And that's wrong. It is not what exists.

I say that because I have had experiences where I have gone back and done a great deal of work and analysis on intelligence information and looked at important countries, target countries, looked at important subject matters with respect to those target countries and asked, probed deeper and deeper and kept probing until I found out what it is we knew, and when we learned it, and when it actually had existed. And I found that, not to my surprise, but I think anytime you look at it that way what you find is that there are very important pieces of intelligence information that countries, that spend a lot of money, and a lot of time with a lot of wonderful people trying to learn more about what's going in the world, did not know some significant event for two years after it happened, for four years after it happened, for six years after it happened, in some cases 11 and 12 and 13 years after it happened.

Now what is the message there? The message is that there are no "knowns." There are thing we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know. So when we do the best we can and we pull all this information together, and we then say well that's basically what we see as the situation, that is really only the known knowns and the known unknowns. And each year, we discover a few more of those unknown unknowns.

It sounds like a riddle. It isn't a riddle. It is a very serious, important matter.

There's another way to phrase that and that is that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. It is basically saying the same thing in a different way. Simply because you do not have evidence that something exists does not mean that you have evidence that it doesn't exist. And yet almost always, when we make our threat assessments, when we look at the world, we end up basing it on the first two pieces of that puzzle, rather than all three.

Yes, sir.


Here's the quote, in context. You may draw your own conclusions, but I think its' just a long winded way of avoiding the question. The reporter asked, "You said things were worse than the facts show. Tell us what is worse." Rumsfeld said "Ok. We don't know." That's not answering the question. That's trying to baffle 'em with bullshit. FUD. Fear Uncertainty and Doubt. Let's [COLOR="Blue"]parse his answer[/COLOR] in an effort to understand what he said.

[COLOR="Red"]Rumsfeld's statements.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Blue"]BigV paraphrase and interpretation.[/COLOR]


[COLOR="Red"]Rumsfeld: Sure. [/COLOR]

[COLOR="Blue"]"Ok, I'll answer your question."[/COLOR] Not a lot to interpret here. Except that he doesn't answer the question. Rumsfeld himself is famous also for saying "Don't answer the question you've been asked, answer the question you wish had been asked". I paraphrase, but this is an example of him following his own advice.


[COLOR="Red"]All of us in this business read intelligence information. And we read it daily and we think about it and it becomes, in our minds, essentially what exists. And that's wrong. It is not what exists.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Blue"]"We read intel, and then decide that what we read is truth. But we're wrong to make that conclusion."[/COLOR] Here Rumsfeld states his case. He will try to support it in a minute, but I would point out here that this is the moment when he transfers our attention from the question asked to the question he wishes was asked.


[COLOR="Red"]I say that because I have had experiences where I have gone back and done a great deal of work and analysis on intelligence information and looked at important countries, target countries, looked at important subject matters with respect to those target countries and asked, probed deeper and deeper and kept probing until I found out what it is we knew, and when we learned it, and when it actually had existed. And I found that, not to my surprise, but I think anytime you look at it that way what you find is that there are very important pieces of intelligence information that countries, that spend a lot of money, and a lot of time with a lot of wonderful people trying to learn more about what's going in the world, did not know some significant event for two years after it happened, for four years after it happened, for six years after it happened, in some cases 11 and 12 and 13 years after it happened.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Blue"]"Sometimes we find out later that we had an incomplete understanding of the truth. This happens despite our best efforts. Sometimes the missing pieces are important, and sometimes they're not known until years later."[/COLOR] Here Rumsfeld supports his case, "Our conclusions are not 'the truth'" by saying that our intelligence, upon which we based our conclusions, was incomplete.

So far we have:

[COLOR="Blue"]"Ok, I'll answer your question. We read intel and draw conclusions. But conclusions are ideas, not reality. We have found that our conclusions are based on incomplete intel."[/COLOR]

Back to his words.

[COLOR="Red"]Now what is the message there? [/COLOR]

Rumsfeld will now try to tie together his evidence in support of his original statement.

[COLOR="Red"]The message is that there are no "knowns." [/COLOR]

Pretty unambiguous.

[COLOR="Red"]There are thing we know that we know.[/COLOR]

Which he immediately uses to contradict himself. This is "the first thing". It is also unambiguous, and fairly reasonable. Most people "know" some things.


[COLOR="Red"]There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. [/COLOR]

This is "the second thing". Also unambiguous, also fairly reasonable. Most people know of things that they don't know.

[COLOR="Red"]But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know we don't know. [/COLOR]

This is "the third thing". It is a little more abstract, and it sounds unusual, but it's not weird or wrong. It's a way of saying "ignorant", something we all share to some degree, something we're all familiar with. It's only slippery in that we are often unaware of our ignorance.

[COLOR="Red"]So when we do the best we can and we pull all this information together, and we then say well that's basically what we see as the situation, that is really only the known knowns and the known unknowns. And each year, we discover a few more of those unknown unknowns.[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Blue"]"We base our conclusions on what we're sure we know and what we're sure we don't know, but we don't know what we're missing."[/COLOR]

Right. Just like everyone else in the whole world does, every day. Proceed with what you know and keep your eyes open. Duh.

[COLOR="Red"]It sounds like a riddle. It isn't a riddle. It is a very serious, important matter.
[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Blue"]"You're confused, but I'm not and it's important, so believe me."[/COLOR] This is his argument, his conclusion. [COLOR="Blue"]"I said things were uncertain. You should believe me."[/COLOR] WTF?!

[COLOR="Red"]There's another way to phrase that and that is that the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. It is basically saying the same thing in a different way. Simply because you do not have evidence that something exists does not mean that you have evidence that it doesn't exist. And yet almost always, when we make our threat assessments, when we look at the world, we end up basing it on the first two pieces of that puzzle, rather than all three.[/COLOR]

Rumsfeld says [COLOR="Blue"]"We're unsure as to the incompleteness of our understanding of things."[/COLOR] Now, how does that answer the question? It does not. He does not answer the question. But he sounds profound doing it, and that buys some time and space.

[COLOR="Red"]Yes, sir. [/COLOR]

[COLOR="Blue"]"Next!"[/COLOR] Whatever.
Cloud • Jun 27, 2007 1:27 pm
not picking up on any personal knowledge here, just yammering
BigV • Jun 27, 2007 1:54 pm
Cloud;359335 wrote:
not picking up on any personal knowledge here, just yammering


??

Are you suggesting that I'm just yammering? You don't understand what I'm saying?
Cloud • Jun 27, 2007 2:03 pm
yes, I'm suggesting you're yammering. As far as I can tell (from reluctantly scanning those long posts) you are talking about some other people's opinions.

Which is okay with me, of course-- you can say anything you want. But I would rather here from YOU, not read some confused--yeah, yammering. What do YOU know?
glatt • Jun 27, 2007 2:23 pm
You don't like it when the threads you start drift away from you original intent, do you Cloud?

BigV was commenting on the Rumsfeld thread drift that started a few days ago. He wasn't yammering at all.
Cloud • Jun 27, 2007 2:27 pm
oh, I don't really care, honestly. Drift all you want.

I'm constantly a-drift.
BigV • Jun 27, 2007 2:34 pm
Cloud;359354 wrote:
yes, I'm suggesting you're yammering. As far as I can tell (from reluctantly scanning those long posts) you are talking about some other people's opinions.

Which is okay with me, of course-- you can say anything you want. But I would rather here from YOU, not read some confused--yeah, yammering. What do YOU know?


Since you asked so nicely...

glatt is correct. I have plenty of information in that post about what *I'm* thinking. As with most of my posts, you have to read a lot to get it, though. I tried to keep the different voices easy to distinguish with the color coding. The material in the gray box is the direct quote from the press conference when Rumsfeld uttered the (in)famous "Unknown unknowns" remark. *I* talk (at length) about what I think about his statement. Something you may not yet know about me is that I consider context important, so I included the question he was responding to and his complete answer.

I then talk about his answer. I color coded [COLOR="Red"]his words in red[/COLOR], and [COLOR="Blue"]my paraphrasing and interpretation of his remarks in blue.[/COLOR] The words in black (not in the quote box) are all mine. Those are my thoughts, which I freely share with you.

Respectfully, I beg to differ. I am not yammering. If you want to know what I know, how I think, read my posts.
xoxoxoBruce • Jun 27, 2007 2:36 pm
Don't waste your time V, Cloud's not interested in thinking, just posting.
Cloud • Jun 27, 2007 2:38 pm
okie dokie. I will gladly read your posts. The ones without Rumsfield in them. :)
BigV • Jun 27, 2007 2:39 pm
Perhaps, xoB.

Surely that's ok too. And you're right, I can get drawn in with a serious response to something intended to be casual. It's one of the burdens of being a srs cat.
Cloud • Jun 27, 2007 2:44 pm
Serious Cat:

Image
xoxoxoBruce • Jun 27, 2007 2:49 pm
Your free to read or skip any posts you want, but criticizing what you haven't read for comprehension is rude.
Cloud • Jun 27, 2007 3:02 pm
so was your comment to me. Saying that I'm not interested in thinking is rather uncalled for, and not true.

My comments to BigV were not meant to be mean-spirited, and I apologize if they were taken that way. There's a lot of discussion in his posts, which I did read, about what other people think. I want to know what YOU (meaning the posters) know! Trying to get at life knowledge here.
BigV • Jun 27, 2007 3:20 pm
What "other people" are you talking about? In my post, only I am talking, and I'm talking about one thing, what Rumsfeld said. It's all me, for pete's sake.

Rummy said "this and that", then I say what I think about it.

But *KNOW*... that's a strong word I rarely use. I have said this before.
BigV wrote:

I don't think I know anything. I might be wrong about that, though.

I don't know.
BigV • Jun 27, 2007 3:53 pm
"Well, Art is Art, isn't it? Still, on the other hand, water is water! And East is East and West is West and if you take cranberries and stew them like applesauce they taste much more like prunes than rhubarb does. Now, uh... Now you tell me what you know."
--Groucho Marx, "Animal Crackers"
LabRat • Jun 27, 2007 5:05 pm
I agree with the paraphrasing that V did, and wish more polititicians (or anyone in a 'higher' position than moi) would just GET TO THE POINT.

The following is my get to the point version:

All of us in this business read intelligence information. I have done a great deal of work and analysis on past intellegence regarding what we knew, 'knowns', when we learned it, and when it actually had existed.

I found that there are occasionally very important pieces of intelligence information, 'unknowns', we did not know for up to13 years.

When we make our threat assessments, we base it on the known 'knowns' and the known 'unknowns'. And each year, we discover a few more of those unknown 'unknowns'.


I hope more people would have understood that. Of course, they would have known he was not answering the original question though ;)
rkzenrage • Jun 27, 2007 5:57 pm
Cloud;354048 wrote:
--I know that people are capable of anything, from the ultimate evil to the ultimate good. So don't be surprised!

--I know that the IRS sucks!

--I know I love my children, and they love me.


Wow, you know more than I do. I don't know that my child loves me and I don't believe in absolute evil or good.
Violet Haze • Jun 27, 2007 6:33 pm
I know that the vast majority of people are most often likely to follow the path of least resistance to where ever they are led, whether they are aware of it or not. Myself included.
Cloud • Jun 27, 2007 6:46 pm
you don't know that your children love you?

:(
Clodfobble • Jun 27, 2007 9:42 pm
Keep in mind, Cloud's kids are adults and rkz's kid is about 5.
jester • Jun 28, 2007 3:11 pm
I know that sometimes I'm on the outside looking in

I know I don't have but maybe 1 or 2 true friends

I know that I spend alot of time here

I know that if I read the obituaries, I'm not in them.
monster • Jun 29, 2007 8:40 am
I know that it's a beautiful new day.

I know I left this cup of tea too long and it's going to be luke-warm.


...I was right. But it's still sunny, not too warm, not humid and I have a microwave.
Shawnee123 • Jun 29, 2007 10:25 am
I know I'm taking vacation time next week. Right now, that's all I need to know. Well, that and the fact that now I have short-timers syndrome and I don't feel motivated to do anything.

This means, of course, that the Cellar gets a break from me. Hold your applause. ;)
theotherguy • Jun 29, 2007 4:28 pm
I know my son thinks I am a superhero and I don't want to screw that up.
monster • Jun 29, 2007 10:21 pm
thenewguy;360083 wrote:
I know my son thinks I am a superhero and I don't want to screw that up.


For a laugh, ask him what he thinks your special superpowers are.... :lol:
zippyt • Jun 29, 2007 10:29 pm
I know that I am STILL tired as hell from rebuilding a truck scale from the ground UP yesterday !!!!
16 + hours from start to finish in 90+degree heat and about 300% humidity !!!
skysidhe • Jul 7, 2007 3:56 pm
I am tired of being a chauffeur at times.

I chauffeur my mother, my son's other grandmother and at one time my own grandmother.

I am not resentful just tired today.
Shawnee123 • Jul 7, 2007 4:01 pm
I know I get to go back to work Monday. I'm sure there will be loads of it, too. Best thing to do when co-worker is away? Take lots of notes on pink message paper and make them deal with it when they get back. That's what they think, anyway.

No major revelations, no mind-popping decisions. Just a little rest and a lot of weary.

Except I did get a lot of yard work done and place is looking nice.

What'd I miss? ;)
skysidhe • Jul 7, 2007 4:04 pm
I know that Shawnee's back! :)


Shawnee123;361955 wrote:

What'd I miss? ;)


I don't know. I've been gone too.
Shawnee123 • Jul 7, 2007 4:05 pm
Hi sky! S'up girl?
skysidhe • Jul 7, 2007 4:12 pm
s'up yerself...lol


I hope you had a great vacation.;)
jester • Jul 9, 2007 11:18 am
if i buy now i can save 40% off of our company's christmas cards (only until oct.)