Divorce
It's happening. Time is slowing down, I can see where we're headed and I feel powerless to change the inevitable result: a terrible crash, horrible carnage. Years in the making, my self delusion finally all ground away. The pain of being unloved now exceeds the numbing and dumbing power of denial. I cannot decide which I miss more, being loved by others or being deluded by myself. Probably delusion, since that pain is fresher by far; I can't remember the feeling of being loved.
I can't make you love me
(M. Reid/A. Shamblin)
Turn down the lights, turn down the bed
Turn down these voices inside my head
Lay down with me, tell me no lies
Just hold me close, don't patronize - don't patronize me
CHORUS: Cause I can't make you love me if you don't
You can't make your heart feel something it won't
Here in the dark, in these lonely hours
I will lay down my heart and I'll feel the power
But you won't, no you won't
'Cause I can't make you love me, if you don't
I'll close my eyes, then I won't see
The love you don't feel when you're holding me
Morning will come and I'll do what's right
Just give me till then to give up this fight
And I will give up this fight
CHORUS: Cause I can't make you love me if you don't
You can't make your heart feel something it won't
Here in the dark, in these lonely hours
I will lay down my heart and I'll feel the power
But you won't, no you won't
'Cause I can't make you love me, if you don't
I wish I had taken better note of that night, I can't remember it either. When was the last time? I should have savored it. I can still hear the siren call of ... of ... of whatever it is in me that kept on trying. Liar.
One partner always knows before the other. I suppose it's possible for both to recognize simultaneously that the relationships is doomed. It's never been that way for me or for anyone I've known.
I love that song. It speaks to me of too many failed affairs of the heart. I usually felt that loss before my partner, though.
It's hard to say who loves more, but love is a two way street. It's not just another platitude popularized by song. Sometimes, I think always, I loved more and harder and completely, and I was prepared for my lover to not be able to love with that kind of ferocity. My pain over a failed relationship usually started well before we would part. I would think each time that my partner knew it was coming, because I would point out each drop of blood I shed in sorrow. Still, each lover was astonished, shocked, and hurt by my perceived capriciousness.
Take time, time to let the blood flow, time to feel the bittersweet pangs, time to touch the memories you'll fold away for months or years. It will get better. Different, certainly. You can shape your future.
feeling unloved begins with a lack of self love.
Maybe it's time to start talking about where things are going...out in the open Deuce.
If it's over, then I say go for the clean break. Don't wallow too long. You'll come out looking like a prune.
We're here for you if you need us.
A handful of counseling sessions... Not actual progress, but more like an explanation of the brochure about the road to progress.
I thought, no, I distinctly remember seeing examples of actual progress this week. I got a couple of calls, inbound calls, about stuff. Important stuff, but the progress I felt was centered in the fact that I received the calls. W was connecting with me. Never mind the fact that the subject of the call was that our child, YS, was assaulted at school, and that we had to call the police and file a report.
Another call was about another child of ours, OS, progress in school, and the developments and changes that will mean in the fall. All good news, that call.
And even yesterday, there was another exchange that showed movement toward me. W would meet and YS at the park. Good news!
Again, this morning, when I said "Good morning" I got a reply. Don't mock. That's an improvement. But I read it wrong.
I found out that the bad day yesterday wasn't about work "I can't talk about it" but about us. Feeling *trapped*. Pressured. Cornered. There were lots of tears this morning. W had cried self to sleep. What a blockhead to misread so badly.
But the interactions have been nice. My bad. W says they're trapped by me because I know that W doesn't have the resources, $7000, to get the divorce, and that I should just file!!! Shouting at me. I don't want to file. I want to stay married.
I'm getting a little ahead of myself. I opened this thread and included this:
The pain of being unloved now exceeds the numbing and dumbing power of denial.
At the beginning of the month, I reached this conclusion, my own personal tipping point.
Hey Deuce - any update? How are things??
Sorry man.
Can't know how you are feeling because every relationship is it's own person.
But know that I, and others here, do care and are thinking of you and want the best for you.
Even if that means getting through this very hard time and coming out better for it.
Does not feel like that now, I know.
It may not ever.
But I want you to know that I wish it to.
Can't find the lyrics to Unknown Hinson's Venus Bound.
It's on his website.
My husband asked for a divorce....I think my brain exploded. I'm at work but I'm not sure if I am still functioning. Hopefully I look normal.......or maybe it's just too obvious when your brain has exploded.
Oh, Cicero, I'm so sorry to hear that. Take it a step at a time and your brain will catch up. I hope your heart will be able to do so soon, as well.
Oh, Cicero, I'm so sorry to hear that. Take it a step at a time and your brain will catch up. I hope your heart will be able to do so soon, as well.
It's our 1 year anniversary today. Holy Crap!.....yep....just acting normal.....
I bet people can tell when others are trying really hard not to completely lose it and look like they still have it completely together. Yeah, I think they look sillier. Even more abnormal.
Yep, that's me right now. I am that person.
OMG - I'm so sorry to hear that - I've been going through my own situation too. My thoughts & prayers are with you.
It wouldn't be so bad if he weren't so excited about it. Running around like he has a new lease on life....already? Can't he just look grim about things not working out?
WTF?!?
I'm not that bad no matter how you slice it......
I guess he just wants his freedom back, I don't know...All the reasons he's giving me sound like bullshit excuses.
I'm going to tell him no until I figure out whether or not he has absolutely lost his mind.
Sorry for venting...........thanks guys.
Wow, Cicero, I am so sorry. PM me if you ever want to chat about it.
Sorry to hear that Cicero. From what you say about his behavior, it sounds like he's been mulling this for a while and finally made up his mind. The longer it's taken to come to a decision, the more it would seem like a new lease on life. It's like finishing that exam, you've been dreading and had nothing else on your mind, for what seems like forever. Even if you failed, at least it's over.
The $64 question...is there someone else?
Alrighty- telling him no worked..... I told him we were also going to continue on with our anniversary arrangements that I made and he needed to be suited up and ready to go. Can you believe it?
Now he's pleased as punch with me again. Did I pull a Jedi mind trick or something? That probably only worked cuz he was full of it and didn't really want to do it.....I don't know.....
weird.
Sometimes I feel like some men never grow up.
Thanks everybody!
It helps to shout into the void sometimes and have something useful echo back.
I'm happy for you. :)
Are you two planning to sit down and talk about this?
Yep-we are planning to do a lot more talking....all the time. I think that was a major part of it. We don't have a lot of little talks about our relationship and how we are feeling. I don't usually talk about the relationship because I assume it's fine...and I usually don't talk about how I'm feeling because it's so transitory. But maybe those are the ingredients for people to feel connected?
I'm sorry you had to go thru that - for whatever reason maybe he thought you were losing interest in your marriage, and that by asking you for a divorce, he was forcing you into a position to accept or deny it. Or I could totally be off the mark. Either way, I hope things only get better for you.
(note - i was typing this while you were typing yours - i'm just a little slow trying to type what's going on in my head and making it sound right)
I don't usually talk about the relationship because I assume it's fine...and I usually don't talk about how I'm feeling because it's so transitory.
Shit, you sound like a man.
Shit, you sound like a man.
Never mind.....I had a long answer for you xoBruce, and one that even included an entertaining little allegory about milk written from 2 different perspectives- but instead I'll just say no- not like a man just someone who likes solutions better than problems.
Better to sound like a man than a goat I guess.....and no I don't hate goats. I love goats. Not too much though. Screw it.:D
lmao at your goat thingy.
Griff, did you see that? She loves goats, but not too much. (I think goats are cute as hell and if I could adopt that one from the Aflac commercial I would.) :)
Glad things are going better for you, Cicero!
"...not like a man just someone who likes solutions better than problems."
Even more like a man with that one. LOL
Cicero, I am so happy to read that things are better and you are gonna talk with him! I had written this long-ass reply to you... Well anyway - goats ARE cute, but the smell - Uggh.
:redface:
Maybe that's my problem in relationships....no room for 2 men.....
It wouldn't be so bad if he weren't so excited about it. Running around like he has a new lease on life....already? Can't he just look grim about things not working out?
WTF?!?
Without knowing the details...maybe jester has something there. He might've been just trying to get a reaction from you, intentionally or not. Sometimes people feel the need to shake things up, for whatever reason.
Never mind.....I had a long answer for you xoBruce, and one that even included an entertaining little allegory about milk written from 2 different perspectives- but instead I'll just say no- not like a man just someone who likes solutions better than problems.
Whoa, that was a compliment. You are practical and pragmatic.
I was served today at work as I was leaving the office.
I was served a summons, a petition for dissolution for marriage, an order setting domestic case schedule with children, a note for motion docket --- courthouse, a motion/declaration for ex parte restraining order for order to show cause and motion for temporary order, an ex parte restraining order/order to show cause, a declaration in support of parenting plan, a (petitioner) financial declaration, a sealed financial source document, and a lovely handwritten note on the top saying that she and the boy were going out of town this weekend so I could move out by saturday night, per the court order.
That must have been tough Deuce. What are you going to do now? I mean seriously, do you have somewhere to stay etc?
Thanks Aliantha. Yes, very tough. I'm still in shock to some extent.
I will be staying at home, despite her scary sounding documents if I have any say in the matter. They are quite scary, I must say. Any restraining order experts in the audience? I'm not one. Yet.
I"m sorry I can't help you with legal advice mate. Do you have a lawyer? Have you spoken to him/her yet? If not, that'd be the first call I'd be making if I were you.
From what I know, if you stay there in violation of a restraining order, even a temporary one, you could end up in the slammer.
Well, Deuce, just keep your head and move forward. You can file your own papers, if need be (find your own lawyer). Don't be intimidated by all the lawyer-speak you just got. :rolleyes:
I"m sorry I can't help you with legal advice mate. Do you have a lawyer? Have you spoken to him/her yet? If not, that'd be the first call I'd be making if I were you.
From what I know, if you stay there in violation of a restraining order, even a temporary one, you could end up in the slammer.
Oh yes.
The BOLD ALL CAPS HEADLINES talk about knowingly violating a restraining order as a CRIMINAL OFFENSE. Yikes.
Isn't that what happens over there Big? I know it's what happens here.
I just went through a messy divorce and if there is anything I can do to help you - please pm me.
There can be an appeal to a restraining order - she has to have grounds and they must be proven first.
Fair enough. That's why I wondered if he'd spoken to his lawyer yet. So that he could avoid any unfavourable events.
I did have a disclaimer...
I'm sorry to hear that, Deuce. Like others have said, definitely talk to a lawyer before moving out. Moving out is a huge step towards getting shafted, in both the property division as well as the custody arrangement. If you "willingly" "leave" your son "with her" now, you will have a harder time being treated as an equal parent in the custody arrangements. Keep on keepin' on, and don't hesitate to come here to vent.
Deuce - you are NOT ALONE - there are many here who have gone through what you are now dealing with. I am just one of at least several that I know of. It is much harder to deal with because we are men and the system was specifically designed to protect and favor women. It sux, but its true. Nevertheless, you can overcome it. You have the strength within you - I know it - it is a fact.
There are many here who care and will offer their valuable insight and experience to you -
DO NOT leave this tool in the box either - USE IT.
*sigh*
going home now.
See you all tomorrow.
We'll be looking forward to it Deuce. Take it easy matey.
I have had a most unhappy education in the past 16 hours.
Lawyers are expensive, thousands of dollars. But, hey, if you're having a heart attack, do you ask for competitive quotes from three or more surgeons? Do you take the low bid? At the same time, money counts. Money is stored choices and I have a limited store. I must spend them wisely. I am willing to spend it/them, as long as I'm getting closer to my goal.
Restraining orders have nothing to do with the concept of innocent until proven guilty. They are immediately effective, with the force of law, and with the penalty of jail. Talk about reducing my choices/options. Jail is *bad*, m'kay? Good. Moving on.
This fella, Pro Se, I may hire him too, with $$$/hour consults as needed. Or, maybe I won't be stupid. Too early to tell. Right now, I'm not feeling so smart.
Everybody says it will be ok in the end, that it's all for the better, etc, etc. :hurl: Right or otherwise, I'm not digging that medicine. And I'm as pollyanna as they come.
I am not in a position of strength.
I have some friends. I am able to act. That's not nothing.
I am being slandered. I have not been able to make the transition from husband and wife to husband and adversary. I see it. I've said it. But it's like a phonetic parroting of some sentence in a foreign language. I don't *know* it. I fear I will before long, perhaps too late. I am constrained by ... grief love fear ignorance habit from acting Con Brio on my own behalf. Reeeeaaaaallly need to get cracking on that one.
My boss is a jewel. Only her lawyer recommendation answered the phone. Has given me a pass from my work duties to take care of business. And she has shown me great compassion. That is a great blessing.
My daughter... she has been calm and wise and supportive and present. Words fail me, utterly, to convey my gratitude, my pride, and my love for her. Thank God she says she understands, despite my inability to articulate the depth and breadth of my feelings.
I have y'all to listen (shut up, I can pretend you're listening if I want to) to me clarify my thoughts. I have always had success in processing complex information by repeating it, by telling it, and you're all a captive audience. *Perfect*. Seriously, I also know that there are some of you that genuinely care. And that gets me crying again. I thank you, my friends. Thank you very much.
We're always here for you, Deuce. Nobody should have to face what you do, but I hope it does ease your troubles just a little to know we think about you and want the best for you. Hold on and let help come from any source available.
How does one find an attorney? The local lawyer referral line hung up on me!
Gremlins? I'll try again....
Noo...call everyone in the phone book until you get the right price. Leave messages they all screen their calls. Or you will butt up against their receptionist and nothing will put you in a worse mood. Leave messages.
I don't know ya but I am sad for you, especially if it was you who went to jail.
Insult on top of injury.
have called... let me count...
G & J -- appt tomorrow at 9 am $95
CL -- twice. no call back
SDS -- conflict, sorry.
JPJ -- talked for an hour. seemed competent, but lukewarm. agreed to call each other again this afternoon. I called as agreed, left vmail, 30 mins ago.
LS -- called, left message.
crap! phone just vibrated, thought it was call... nope. spam.
JH -- left message 8 hours ago. no call back.
DH -- called last night and again this morning, no call back.
very discouraged.
Hang in there buddy it sucks "buying" something you totally don't want, that is horribly overpriced. Just stay focused - I am praying for ya.
Spoke with friend, recent divorce survivor. Learned some stuff, had some stuff I already knew reinforced, enjoyed a little stinkin solidarity. woot.
fuck. I need a plan.. I think I need some food. Have had a couple of pots of coffee. last meal was.bag of chips yesterday lunch. I am not hungry, but I know that's not exactly right. I should have a reasonable meal anyway, trusting brain over mis-signaling belly.
a lull now. gonna walk around a little (carrying phone and willing it to ring....)
later.
thanks very much yman.
pm
That's it, Deuce. You keep plugging away at it; the momentum is good to maintain right now. You need to take care of yourself, first and foremost. I know what you mean about your appetite; after a figurative punch in the gut you just don't feel like eating. Your brain is the one to trust here. Anything nutritious will be helpful, even if accompanied by a treat. In fact, be good to yourself and have something really tasty. It might even stimulate your appetite a bit.
You will get through this Deuce. Just keep putting one foot in front of the other, doing each of the little steps that get you to the other side of it. Brilliant reaction from your daughter, mate. Take heart from that.
Keep in mind you have this place to come and vent at any time.
Duece - call me back when you're done - don' bother to pm me. I'm here for ya, I'm not always online - two teen sons and all...Just call me when you want or need 24/7.
The divorce process is sickening, at best. I have heard females sometimes use the "restraining order" as a strategy in a divorce. I think it is often recommended, even if there isn't a good reason for restraint, because it forces the man out of the house and into a defensive situation. Not saying that restraining orders are never the best thing for a situation, I have just heard of them being abused for this purpose. My husband's ex even once said "At least I didn't get a restraining order on you." I remember thinking "What reason would she have for that?" (I was there...there was no reason for her to feel threatened at all.) But it is sometimes used as a tactic to win custody battles.
Deuce, I am so sorry you are having to deal with this, especially in midst of the emotional turmoil you are already dealing with.
A couple of things:
- Absolutely get a lawyer. Now. Keep calling until someone talks to you.
- Keep your head on straight. Sounds like you are doing that, but just keep it that way. Your wife may try to sweeten you up for something she wants, but keep in mind that she is going to try and get everything she can and she is, in fact ending the marriage. Getting a lawyer will help with this, too, if he/she is a good one. They should be sort of a buffer for you. Not like a therapist, but they handle the stinky stuff and should do their best to clean it up before they hand it over to you. If not, you need a better lawyer.
- Get as much time with your kids as you can and don't settle for anything less than being a fully involved parent, no matter what mediators or your wife say about it. Even if they are residing with their mom away from you, stay involved as much as you can. Go to events. Take them to school, pack their lunches...whatever it takes to show them you are still their father and that you have not abandoned them (or that their mother has not pushed you out of their lives.) You should be able to get the restraining order suspended or dropped, I would think which makes being involved a lot more possible.
- Don't ever demonize their mother to them. I doubt you would do this, but people divorcing do this, sometimes as an emotional reaction, but it is a serious issue for kids in divorces, I think and damages them for a long time. My step-kids still ask questions about the crap their mother fed them about Dad.
It seriously sucks, but divorce is like that. Take heart...it will get better, but it has to get a little worse, first.
I hope I haven't come across too harshly, but I truly wish you the best with this. You have made a lot of progress with the struggles you have had, lately, even if you don't feel like you've made progress. It is apparent in reading your posts. Don't let these new developments keep you from continuing to make progress. This is your next lesson and you will master it.
Attorney's are like that....you think they aren't responsive but as soon as you give them a buck they up your butt and around the corner.....(that's actually a good thing when you need one)
One of my ex- fiance's had an ex- wife that got a restraining order claiming that he was "escalating".
I saw the police report. It was strangely devoid of any writing aside from the "escalation during an arguement" comment.
Holy crap- I escalate all the time. I'm probably even doing that right now....
Yep.....remember that one everyone....say "escalating".
Wow - you totally nailed it case - Unfortunately a woman needs NOTHING other than "I'm afraid of him" to get a restraining order. I had to deal with much of it. A year and a half later I have sole custody of all my kids and my house. Men can win, it can be, and usually is, very hard, but even moreso worth it. Great advice!
Do you have to pay for the initial consultation? That doesn't sound good. You'd think since you're deciding whether or not to hire them that you'd be the one deciding if they're worth paying or not.
Effectively that's what you're doing right? Hiring them to do a job for you.
Who's ever been paid for an interview?
You're on the money there, Aliantha; it is akin to an interview. I know when my wife and I were splitting up, I was able to see a couple of different lawyers for one free consultation. Maybe we have a more competitive market for lawyers around here, though.
a lovely handwritten note on the top saying that she and the boy were going out of town this weekend so I could move out by saturday night, per the court order.
OK, so I'm one of the lucky ones not to have been through this, and thus may be a little slow on the uptake.
Does the order say that you have to move out, or just not be in her vicinity? Could you not use the time to change the locks, pack up her stuff and leave it at the end of the drive with a note saying "I will be out tonight so you can take this away without fear of forcing a violation of the restraining order?
You say you spoke to a friend who had been through it -did you ask him for a lawyer recommendation?
You're probably right there UB. Our society is nowhere near as litigious as yours.
I have always had success in processing complex information by repeating it, by telling it, and you're all a captive audience. *Perfect*. Seriously, I also know that there are some of you that genuinely care. And that gets me crying again. I thank you, my friends. Thank you very much.
Yes listening... and seething along with you.
Lots of good advice here. Look after yourself, eat properly, get a lawyer and don't badmouth the wife to the children ever, are the things I'd repeat.
Wishing you strength.
I need something RIGHT NOW!
I don't know if I need advice, a kick in the head to go with the one to the balls, or what...
I love my wife.
She just called.
I was on the phone with the lawyer, who said "DO NOT ANSWER THE PHONE".
Shit.
I want to talk to her.
I want to reconcile with her. How can we get anything done if we can't talk?
And the longer I wait, what.... what if she wants to call it off? I guess I'll be pissing her off more, rejecting her, doing to her what I hated having done to me...
Seven times seventy. -- Charlie Brown.
Or. I dodged a bullet. I didn't get cornered into violating the restraining order. I didn't get maneuvered into saying something I'll regret. Or I missed the chance to talk to my son, who is with her. Or I missed the chance to hear some important news about one of the kids, hurt or something.
ggaaaaAAAAAHHHH!
Help!
Hang tight, Deuce. I expect your lawyer has the right idea. Don't try to second guess him/her, otherwise there isn't much point in paying for legal services. I certainly think there would be at least one more call if your wife needed to inform you of an injury. This won't be easy, but you have to tough it out for now.
If there is an emergency, she'll leave you a vm - and call you 20 more times in a row - you know that. Good luck buddy - hope today went well.
Ok, had another great post, lost it... booooooo!
short answer, she called again, left a nice, concerned message. Says to call her.
Cooler heads have prevailed and I will.. stay in my box for now. I am nothing if not law abiding.
shit.
We're proud of you, Deuce. I know it's tough, but you're doing well.
Oh, that lost post - I've been there, too. I've learned to start in a text editor for anything I think may get bigger than a couple of sentences. I copy and paste here when it's ready.
Well done, Deuce, I get the sense you just crossed the first of a series of hurdles. Your lawyer is more thn likely advising you right on not picking up the phone.
Short anecdote: a friend of mine, Ash, went through a divorce. His wife's idea. They were doing it without lawyers at first (though actually, she had sought legal advice without telling him), and she showed great concern for his welfare during the first few weeks, phoned him to see he was okay, was really good about access and stuff.....by the time she'd persuaded him to agree to the most appalling terms of divorce and maintenance, we'd (his friends) begun to spot a pattern and advised him to get a solcitor to act on his behalf. She went nuts, started trying to mess with his access rights, said he was violent, a bully etc etc, the whole works. Fortunately his solicitor was able to get him through it all, with decent access to his boys and maintenance payments that took account of both their incomes.
I'm not saying your wife is anything like Ash's wife...but the point is, he still loved her and that meant when they were 'doing it without solicitors' he was not acting adversarially towards her; she meanwhile was acting in an adversarial way towards him, because they were in fact in an adversarial situation.
Your wife has indicated behaviourally (I think, but this is just my opinion) that she is treating this divorce in an entirely adversarial way. You are on opposing sides here. You must remember that. Don't be fooled by your feelings into dropping your defenses, because your opponent may use that against you.
It's shit and it hurts, and many of my closest friends have been through it. I was fortunate that when my relationship ended we were co-habiting, rather than married and had no kids to think about. It was still shit and hurtful and traumatic and that was with us being friendly about it. Having to deal with all this other stuff as well must be so hard.
Hang in there mate. Now is not the time to be friends. It's not the time to be enemies either...but it really isn't a time for being friends. Be selfish to the extent that you protect yourself. You are a father, and obviously you want to provide for your children, but that does not mean you deserve to come away with nothing. Protect yourself. Don't let her (with or without intent) persuade you to act against your own interests.
Your wife has indicated behaviourally (I think, but this is just my opinion) that she is treating this divorce in an entirely adversarial way. You are on opposing sides here. You must remember that. Don't be fooled by your feelings into dropping your defenses, because your opponent may use that against you.
Very good point, DanaC.
Hang in there deuce. You will get through this and come out on the other side.
If you don't believe me ask your attorney....She cannot "call off" a restraining order once it is granted to her. Now it's the states orders. She either really screwed up here- or she knows exactly what she's doing.
Right o- Dana and Shawnee......but i'm willing to take it a step further.
She shouldn't have played with restraining orders unless she was being threatened. Stay away from her. That is now permanently on your record and may effect future job prospects. Very destructive.
Once someone goes there don't come back ever. Either they aren't worth a damb or they really were in harm's way. In either case....take it seriously.
If you really were a threat, stay away until you get help.
If you weren't a threat....leave her stupid a**. Just for being a manipulative idiot that likes to play games with the lives of you and your kid(s).
Hang in there.
And remember: The first time- shame on you. The second time- shame on me.
First of all, none of us know her and everyone is turning her into a villian. She may well just want to talk. And frankly, we do not know anything about Deuce either except what he is posting. For all we know, they are faults on both sides. Let them work it out themselves.
No, not at all. She may be a wonderful woman, but as one who has already dealt with this, he must protect himself first.
First of all, none of us know her and everyone is turning her into a villian. She may well just want to talk. And frankly, we do not know anything about Deuce either except what he is posting. For all we know, they are faults on both sides. Let them work it out themselves.
To start with I read this with the same thought in mind. I left my husband (we didn't have children) and therefore won't automatically condemn the person leaving the relationship, even if they break the other person's heart.
However I think we have enough evidence for the position taken by Dwellars. I don't think she has necessarily been made out to be the villain - she is simply the one who has involved the law and put Deuce in a situation where he has to fight. She has physically removed their son and set something in place to deny him access to their joint property. I don't get the feeling she is a woman running scared, rather a woman who wants a man removed from her life. Her follow-up phone call also suggests she does not perceive him as dangerous.
Even Cicero, who advocates "leaving her stupid ass" qualifies it by saying the advice only counts if the restraining order was unnecessary.
I'm sure Deuce's wife feels her actions are justified and her friends probably think he is very much the villain of the piece. After all, she has the law on her side. Personally I think it's sad that it had to escalate to this and she wasn't able to move into a friend or relative's house and continue with counselling before getting on the financially draining path of legal interference. Who loses out in the end? Who would the money usually be spent on? It's a truism that the children always suffer when a relationship breaks down.
First of all, none of us know her and everyone is turning her into a villian. She may well just want to talk. And frankly, we do not know anything about Deuce either except what he is posting. For all we know, they are faults on both sides. Let them work it out themselves.
A) This isn't about her being a villain, this is about her being one party in a legal battle. Deuce is the other party.
B) We do not know her, and we only know what Deuce has posted, but the fact is Deuce has posted and we, the Cellar community have responded with our best intentioned advice.
C) Divorce is messy. Even the most civilised and rational people can become nasty when future happiness, finances, and access to the children are at stake.
D) If one party has engaged legal assistance, the other party can only effectively protect themselves by doing the same (unless they have the experience, knowledge and resources to represent themselves effectively....most people in the midst of an emotionally tumultuous divorce do not qualify for that).
E) See B. Deuce is a member of our community, his wife is not. Therefore our advice is to Deuce. This doesn't mean we wish his wife ill, or seek to demonize her....we simply want this to go as smoothly as possible for Deuce and are offering him advice in good conscience. Most of the people posting have either been through a similar situation, or have been there for friends who have.
The advice I have offered is the same advice I gave my friend when he went though his divorce. I gave similar advice to another friend whose husband was divorcing her and who was doing an excellent job of assassinating her character and making her look like an unfit mother, whilst to her face he appeared quite reasonable. I repeat....divorce is nasty. People do things and act in ways they would never do under any other circumstances. Doesn't make 'em bad people, does make them potentially dangerous to the wellbeing and future happiness of the person they are divorcing.
You are right. Divorce is nasty. Did anyone here stop to think that perhaps her intentions are to just talk? Almost everyone that has supported Deuce has jumped to conclusions that say she's the bad one. I don't think either one is bad. I think they are in a tough spot.
The advise I see is go after her Deuce. I could be wrong. I think the support he is receiving is good because everyone needs a support group when something like this happens. But the advise could be adding contempt where there may not otherwise be any. They should both be given the benefit of fairness. Just because she isn't a member of the Cellar Community doesn't mean we should be telling him to "pack her bags and put them at the end of the driveway". We also don't know that she is bashing him. I'm just playing devil's advocate. I hope that things work out well for the both of them.
You are right. Divorce is nasty. Did anyone here stop to think that perhaps her intentions are to just talk? Almost everyone that has supported Deuce has jumped to conclusions that say she's the bad one. I don't think either one is bad. I think they are in a tough spot.
This is not about good and bad. Put those concepts out of your head now, if you want to be of any use whatsoever in advising anybody in this situation. Divorce involves one of the most complicated emotional landscapes anyone is ever likely to find themselves wandering around in. This is not about how good or bad Deuce's wife is, it's about him engaging in a necessary act of self-preservation.
The advise I see is go after her Deuce. I could be wrong.
What really? That is your advice? Are you sure about that? Against his lawyer's advice, contrary to the experience of the vast majority of divorcees, contrary to the evidence of where she is already at in this process? Contrary to the entire trend of events as brought to the Cellar by Deuce intermittently over many weeks?
That is your advice to a man who is having to hold it together, clearly still loves the woman and is therefore in the extremely vulnerable position of having to defend himself against potential economic attack, and the possible limitations of access to his children, whilst his reputation is (if her accusations are untrue) besmirched to the point of permanently scarring his record.
Friend, I do not wish to sound arrogant, and I do not dismiss the possibility that she just wants to talk...but you are giving very bad advice. Even if she does truly, want to talk. It has been made very clear by her actions that this
is happening. To 'go after her' at this point would be a dangerous denial of what is happening.
There will likely come a time, in the very near future, when enough has been nailed down that the lawyers will advise that some contact is made. But there are stages to go through. The stakes are high enough, why make it any harder on himself? Right now, when it's about as raw as it is ever going to get, let a third party deal with it.
Spoke with friend, recent divorce survivor. Learned some stuff, had some stuff I already knew reinforced, enjoyed a little stinkin solidarity. woot.
Did his lawyer do a good job of protecting his interests AND negotiating an equitable solution to the assortment of problems you end up with in the divorce?
If the answer is yes, call him back and get the name of his attorney.
This, incidentally, is the correct way to choose a divorce lawyer.
First of all, none of us know her and everyone is turning her into a villian. She may well just want to talk. And frankly, we do not know anything about Deuce either except what he is posting. For all we know, they are faults on both sides. Let them work it out themselves.
They have been not talking for several months now. If there is any further talking to be done, it needs to be done by the lawyers.
Deuce, I have been reading your posts and havent commented, because I am on the other end of this trip. I have just served my ex....
I wish you would.
I know you are not my wife. I know you cannot speak for her. I know that. I know that.
Still...
Part of me wants to hear from her, even if it is through you. I know that is ridiculous. It is not ridiculous to want to understand, and I do want to understand. I don't think it is understandable.
Everything is so surreal. I can feel my tongue heavy in my mouth. Tears spilling down my cheeks--where did those come from? Navigating this mirror world, by braille, where all my instincts are backwards, where all my actions are unintended and all my intentions are stillborn, inert.
What is the lesson here? What is to be learned? What are the mistakes I'm suffering from and should be avoided in the future? Where is the profit from our good fortune and hard work?
What of the future, what will happen? What about our past? How did I get here?
When I first made the break with my ex, I had a very long talk with a *metro* male friend of mine, who was shattered when his gf of 7 years up and left him without a backward glance.
My ex, was going through this hellish emotional roller coaster. He couldnt believe this was happening to him and that it was over, I couldnt believe he didnt see it coming....things had been bad for months.
He couldnt let go, wouldnt let go. He begged, black mailed, gave me ultimatums and threats. The more he pushed, the more reserved and pragmatic I got. I didnt want to fight for what we *had* and couldnt see a point, he just couldnt get that.
Anyways, I commented to my friend about this roller coaster and he said he had the same reaction.
We *decided* that it was just that us girls (in this instance) had reconciled with ourselves, boxed everything up emotionally and shut that door....before we had broken the news to our male partners. So essentially, we had it all tidied up and knew it was over before our partners knew what was about to hit them.
I've been on the other side of that fence, been chewed up, spat out and wondered where the fuck that came from?
Again, my bf at the time had worked through everything within himself and he was more than ready to move on, then he hit me with the "its over, I dont love you anymore".
The only time I have seen the line blurred was in a particularly volatile relationship (not physically, emotionally), where we would break up at the drop of a hat, and then one or both of us would do whatever necessary for us to get back together.
Your questions I cant answer and most of them probably dont have an answer at all.
All I can tell you is that time does heal and you need to go through what you are going through.
DONT look for *mistakes* that you made, my ex made none.
The future? no one can predict what will happen, but you will get through it, you have too many wonderful friends and support here not too.
Just take one day at a time luv, thats all you can do.
sleepy now. and sad, melancholy. gonna read, then sleep.
Let's talk tomorrow.
I'm sorry, none of that was probably useful.
As you said, I cant speak for your wife.
I can look at her actions and make assumptions about them, but you know her better than any of us.
I know you want to hear from her and for her to explain what is happening....but...she may not be able too, she may be working things through herself.
Its the not knowing or being able to *fix* it...or getting the chance to fix it, that is probably eating you up....but (and again, you would know better than I), I gather she wouldnt be putting you through this on a whim....it sounds like she has done the *reconciling*.
Rest assured, if she wants things to change, she WONT just make one phone call and then go "oh well, he didnt answer, it was probably a bad idea anyway" and if she does do something like that....you dont want to be a part of it.
I'm sorry we cant make the hurt any less
The advise I see is go after her Deuce. I could be wrong.
What really? That is your advice? Are you sure about that? Against his lawyer's advice, contrary to the experience of the vast majority of divorcees, contrary to the evidence of where she is already at in this process?...
I'm pretty sure that what kgg meant was that the advice she sees
being given by others here is to "go after her," meaning "attack her before she attacks you." Not to try to reconcile with her.
But the problem is, fairness is only applicable when you know both parties. It would be nice if Deuce could step back from the recent events and say, "Oh well, let's try to make the best of a bad situation," but he has already indicated he's not in an emotional position to do that. Terms of the divorce aside, he has to stop being vulnerable before he can begin to appropriately react in any way. Part of that means severing the emotional ties with his wife. If that means demonizing her a bit before he can successfully move back to center, then that's what it means. 'I'll let you two work it out on your own, I hope all the best for you' is lukewarm at best, not really support at all. It is what he will receive from all his family and friends who do know the both of them. Sometimes people need stronger encouragement than that to get
past things, before they can view them with a better, healthier perspective.
I'm pretty sure that what kgg meant was that the advice she sees being given by others here is to "go after her," meaning "attack her before she attacks you." Not to try to reconcile with her.
Ahh..thanks. I see that. I had misunderstood.
Terms of the divorce aside, he has to stop being vulnerable before he can begin to appropriately react in any way. Part of that means severing the emotional ties with his wife. If that means demonizing her a bit before he can successfully move back to center, then that's what it means. ... Sometimes people need stronger encouragement than that to get past things, before they can view them with a better, healthier perspective.
I think you've really got a good point there. The search for understanding, can take place some indefinate time in the future, right now, a little self-protection and enough anger to stop from turning it in on himself, will do Deuce a lot more good I think in the short term.
Sorry to talk about you in the third person there Deuce :P
Sorry to talk about you in the third person there Deuce :P
Not at all. I am rapt. Please continue.
A couple of thoughts...
I am being very open here, especially about the hurt. I am opening my heart to everyone here. I fully expect my wife is reading these posts as well.
Some number of posts back, I forget where.... I do not demonize her. That is my vulnerability talking. I am not the Saddam Hussein I'm portrayed as in documents any more than she is Cruella De Vil. Please. Exaggerated hyperbolic histrionics is no substitute for reasoning together.
Some more of what the world looks like from my perspective:
I love my wife.
I love our son.
I believe, devoutly, that the greatest gift I can give my son is to love his mother. It is easy to see how those dovetail neatly together for me.
Loving her does not depend on living together though. The living arrangements are flexible. And, if she does not love me, and or does not live with me, that doesn't mean that we, together, cannot still do well by our son. And that,
doing what is best for our son, is my primary consideration.
Defining what is best, and how to make that happen is not so easy. Let me back up a little bit. I think, no, I **KNOW** the best scenario is one in which father and mother are husband and wife and love each other and live together and both love the child and live with the child. That is clear to me. Unfortunately, my situation is missing a few of those elements, so finding the best scenario that is realistically possible is my quest now.
Shit. One of the biggest problems is that we're off on the wrong foot. You've all correctly observed that I have yielded the initiative, that we're in court now, and that her allegations have put me in a very unfavorable light. They have knocked me on my heels. I am in the position now of having to take care of myself *first* if I am to be in any position later to do the best for my son.
This is an unfamiliar situation for me. I have never thought of myself first. I have always thought of my wife and family first. Now it is different. It is very different. You know how the airline emergency drill instructs you to put the oxygen mask over your own face first before you try to render assistance to your child right next to you, well, I have to do it like that. We're both suffering, but if I am incapacitated, for whatever reason, I will be of no use to him. So, me first, then him.
That is the framework upon which hangs advice to me from many here and many in person that says "take care of yourself", "protect yourself", "harden yourself toward her", "counterattack her". These are on a continuum, and while they're all on the right track, I have limits as to what I am willing to do in the name of "taking care of myself" or "protecting myself".
I am unaccustomed to putting myself ahead of my wife or my children. I see the need, in the service of my greater goal. I understand and am willing to act accordingly, but like any new behavior, and in a new situation, I'm struggling with the learning curve, in addition to the burden of very difficult emotional circumstances.
But I am strong, and I am smart, and I am devoted to them. I am completely motivated to succeed, or die trying.
Deuce, you have my sympathy and admiration.
There will, hopefully, be a time when friendship is something you can work towards. You are only hardening yourself now, whilst the battle lines are drawn. You didn't ask to be at war, but you are and must deal with it accordingly. There is no shame in putting yourself first for this stage of things. Our society has spent the past twenty years telling mothers they should learn to put themselves first sometimes...and there are equally times when a father must do the same.
Keep posting, keep talking, this will get easier, you are strong enough to cope.
I love our son.
I believe, devoutly, that the greatest gift I can give my son is to love his mother. It is easy to see how those dovetail neatly together for me.
Absolutely, but she has decided that she no longer wants to be your wife. I'm sorry and I know thats hard to see, but that is her choice.
~her allegations have put me in a very unfavorable light. They have knocked me on my heels. I am in the position now of having to take care of myself *first* if I am to be in any position later to do the best for my son. We're both suffering, but if I am incapacitated, for whatever reason, I will be of no use to him. So, me first, then him.
Yes you ALL are suffering, but the position you are now in, a very defensive one, was premeditated and decided upon by her - SHE has chosen this path for all of you. SHE has forced you to react accordingly. SHE has given you no choice. SHE has created this path. SHE has served you with the restraining order. SHE has served you with all the papers - SHE has affected your ability to see or talk to any of your children. SHE has forced you out of your home. SHE has chosen this path - SHE has given you no option other than to defend yourself, clear your name and rebuild your life. Then and only then can you again be the best father you can be to
your son.
I am unaccustomed to putting myself ahead of my wife or my children. I see the need, in the service of my greater goal. I understand and am willing to act accordingly, but like any new behavior, and in a new situation, I'm struggling with the learning curve, in addition to the burden of very difficult emotional circumstances.
All normal, all good. You are on the right path - hang in there - we are here for you.
Just back from a walk. I had been reading the papers closely, for comprehension. Oh my god. No revelations, no new information, my first scan was only confirmed. yman, your remarks, as usual, are helpful. They help me focus, help me ignore the clamorous distractions. There are many cliches that fit here, but the net effect is that it's time to get to work. Nasty hard unpleasant work. But it's just work.
It's just work. Break it down. I have spent the afternoon doing triage. The whole package was just too overwhelming. So I made a list, I checked it twice, some naughty, some nice. The naughtiest was the temporary restraining order. The result of my triage revealed that set of three documents to be the most important today, right now.
I have to read them, comprehend them, understand them. This thing is radioactive, very dangerous. Violation of this order is a criminal offense, and subjects the violator to arrest. It is effective immediately. It lasts for one year unless changed.
I have been restrained from disturbing the peace of the other party or of any child. W. T. F. That is soooo broad.
I have been ordered to pay $xxxxxxx / month maintenance.
Ohhh!!! She's calling again!!!!!! RIGHT NOW. Call, talk to me. Son calls, talk to me. This is worm, and the restraining order is the hook.
I can't do this.
The best victory is when the opponent surrenders of its own accord before there are any actual hostilities... It is best to win without fighting.
I am lost.
Ohhh!!! She's calling again!!!!!! RIGHT NOW. Call, talk to me. Son calls, talk to me. This is worm, and the restraining order is the hook.
I can't do this.
Deuce, you can do this. Keep putting one foot in front of the other. What have your lawyers said regarding phone calls from your son?
Well done on the triage approach. You're doing great, you're doing what is necessary. This too will pass.
Yes you ALL are suffering, but the position you are now in, a very defensive one, was premeditated and decided upon by her - SHE has chosen this path for all of you. SHE has forced you to react accordingly. SHE has given you no choice. SHE has created this path. SHE has served you with the restraining order. SHE has served you with all the papers - SHE has affected your ability to see or talk to any of your children. SHE has forced you out of your home. SHE has chosen this path - SHE has given you no option other than to defend yourself, clear your name and rebuild your life. Then and only then can you again be the best father you can be to your son.
Yup.
This is the knot at the end of the rope to which I'm clinging.
You are not alone - remember that! We are here and I'm sure you have your family and friends supporting you as well till all this weirdness gets sorted out. Things will be different, but theat doesn't mean they willl be worse - in some respects they will be better. Good luck tomorrow!
Deuce, I don't have much more to offer than what others have said. My only experience with divorce is through watching the 60% or so of friends and family we have had go through it. Expect the worse, hope for the best. Don't be to trusting. Decisions have been made and minds made up. Get a good lawyer who will protect your assets. I have watched more than one guy, who did not want the divorce, trust the other party to play fair only to go to that fateful day in court and be taken to the bank, or near bankruptcy, for 20 or more years. I personally would hire a private detective and see what else may be going on. Just be careful. Good luck.
First of all, none of us know her and everyone is turning her into a villian. She may well just want to talk. And frankly, we do not know anything about Deuce either except what he is posting. For all we know, they are faults on both sides. Let them work it out themselves.
I think you might have been responding to my post...and I think I left it open enough with my responses. Fact is...she made sure that it is illegal for them to talk, no matter what her intentions were at that time. No blame. Just the truth. I also did not blame her if the fault was his. I did not blame him if the fault was his. I blamed her if she perjured herself- if she was not in harm's way and stated that she was a victim. I do not
know...but it is a common tactic. I saw this game play out once in my personal life and the kid suffered the most. He was almost killed by the heavy handed game playing of the adults involved. It turned out really, really badly.
Follow the attorney's advice to every letter and everything else will work itself out. Don't take any chances
Deuce.
Follow the attorney's advice to every letter and everything else will work itself out. Don't take any chances Deuce.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^See above ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Good morning to you all.
I am still interviewing/shopping for counsel. I have to pick TODAY. I have two more meetings today.
I have been through much in my life. Complicated childhood, parental strife, blended families, death, marriage, parenthood, financial struggles. A lot. I have never been this discombubulated. I have never been this conflicted, this uncertain. I deal with an unknown future all the time, professionally and personally. Figuring stuff out is "how I roll" to borrow a phrase from a recent post of another dwellar.
I have not yet figured this one out. I have parts of it figured out. I'm crystal clear that if I don't get my shit squared away, and right now mister, the other side will become reality by default. That's bad, m'kay?
My difficulties have a few important aspects. I don't know how to do what I want to do. But the pros do. I don't know how to pick the (relative) best pro. I'm going to be leaning very heavily, no, completely on my gut on this one. There aren't rules, there isn't a peer reviewed established "best practices" method of choosing counsel. I'll be winging it. That makes me somewhat uncomfortable. Normally, when the stakes aren't so high, I like exploring the unknown. Let's go for a ride and see where we wind up. Let's order something new from the menu. Let's go see something we haven't seen before. In those cases, if it goes well, yay. If it goes poorly, oh well. Max downside, an indigestible meal, or we're lost and we wasted a road trip, or we see a dumb show. No biggie.
But this time... if I choose poorly, I will have paid a lot of money and gotten an extremely unacceptable result. Recovering from that mistake will take a long time and will likely be even more expensive, though it is unlikely to be fatal. *breathe* Ok. So I guess I can pick without being paralyzed with fear of making a terminally wrong choice. The stakes are high, but I cannot avoid choosing poorly by not choosing any. That is obviously worse still. I'll know a lot more by the close of business today.
I fully expect my wife is reading these posts as well.
After you choose counsel, you should tell them about this website and your posts here so they can review what you have written. They need to be prepared if anything you have written here is presented in the courtroom by her attorney to be used against you.
I also suggest that you don't erase any messages your wife leaves for you on the answering machine/voice mail. Save them. It's possible they may come in handy later. The fact that she got a restraining order against you and is leaving messages for you instructing you to violate that restraining order can't be good for her position.
Your gut is a good start, but considering the amount of wringing it no doubt has endured of late, this advice might be better:
Did his lawyer do a good job of protecting his interests AND negotiating an equitable solution to the assortment of problems you end up with in the divorce?
If the answer is yes, call him back and get the name of his attorney.
This, incidentally, is the correct way to choose a divorce lawyer.
Divorce should not have to be adversarial, but sometimes (most often) it just is.
I have faith in you, Deuce. It sounds like you have been taking the steps you believe are best in the long run, though sometimes they are the most painful. You are stronger than you might sometimes think.
IMHO the best way to find a good lawyer is to ask around of people who have had similar experiences and find the one lawyer that is most adversarial to her lawyer. Find out who this guys most fierce competition is. Choose him. Remember this is about the next 20 years of your financial life and your ability to move on from here. Each of my brothers paid alimony for nearly 20 years, 20 fuuking years! Neither will have a dime when they die. It all went to the ex. They were never able to save a thing. Prepare for it to get ugly.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^See above ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Is that to me or to Deuce?
As that to me or to Deuce?
To Deuce. Its great advice. That and the old adage - hope for the best, but prepare for the worst.
When perceived nightmare is reality- it's really hard not to try and throw in the towel, shake hands, and let it be over.....it's just not going to be in this case.
When someone asks for the State's intervention- there is no going back to normal.
If you are going to do this, DO IT.
Separate your intellect from your emotion.
I rarely give this advice and hate to do it, but sometimes it is needed.
There comes a point where one need divest from what makes us make decisions based on compassion.
If you are going to do this, do it right, as it need be done. Listen to your lawyer and if you begin to win, when she calls... and she will...
Well... just listen to your lawyer.
I just want to say that I'm sorry it came to this dude, but if this is what needs to happen, really... make it happen and don't look back.
Not going to go into why the "game" of in-and-out of pain and "I wonder" harms everyone more than you can imagine, but it does.
IMO, for the sane, this is a one-way-street.
Fear.
F alse
E vidence
A ppearing
R eal
Fear is a *POWERFUL* motivator, and no one is immune. Not me, not you, not my wife, not our children.
Have you ever been to the ocean? To the beach? I have many times, and it's a beautiful place. The beauty of the ocean can distract one from the power of the moving water. Power to crush and kill. Fear is like that. It has the power to overwhelm, and lately for me, it comes over me like big ocean waves.
When I'm overtaken by one and being maytagged along the bottom, it feels like impending death. Hopeless. Each time (so far) I have managed to come up for air between waves, and to catch a little break or a reality check, between sets.
I just broke the surface of the last monster to crush me, and the salty air never tasted so sweet.
Someday, I hope to reach the shore, intact. I'll settle for being able to breathe for right now though.
Here comes another one, a big one.
Now is a good time to hyperventilate.
Hang in there Deuce. *smiles* It gets easier the further you swim.
Hang in there Deuce. *smiles* It gets easier the further you swim.
I don't want to swim further out. I'm trying to get to shore, where my family is.
At the risk of stretching this metaphor to breaking point...you need to get to a different shore.
I'm glad you posted though. I was just about to put out an APB on you :P
You're right. The metaphor is probably broken. But it is still true that I want to be with my family. Different shore, same shore, Dinah Shore, whatever. The one with my family--that's the one I'm heading toward.
I'm not in jail yet, yay! We have had a few good talks, and a few good arguments. The talks were good because goodwill resulted from them. The arguements, not so much. They were "good" because they were rip roaring arguments. Not good, not productive. :(
That right there, that inability to argue constructively is one of our biggest problems. We're for sure arguing now, still, but it's through expen$ive proxie$. Better we should just learn to work out our differences better.
gah. who said it? somebbody said let them work it out. Man, that sounds appealing. I want to work it out, I just don't know how, when anything I say can be read as an attack on her. How do I do that?
We have so much to go on, and we're stuck arguing about he said she said. It's really discouraging. Even at this stage, we need to communicate. I want to communicate. To make myself understood, and to understand her. At this point, we're talking with legal papers, and even those are confusing. Can't we just, you know, talk? Understand each other?
How the hell do all you people do it?
rkzenrage, you are excused from answering. I read many of your posts about how your brutal candor has eliminated all marital friction, speeding all husband and wife communication along shining steel rails unimpeded by any emotion. I'm not capable of that. *My* heart's in it, 100%.
How would you all suggest I communicate with her?
I'm not ready to file my own divorce papers yet, and the longer I can defer that decision, the better. That's not communicating, that's telling. I'm looking for some mode / method / magic trick that we can use to understand each other?
I'm open to suggestions. Please.
Honestly Deuce? I can't offer any advice on that. I think you stand more chance of understanding each other, after the divorce is complete and the dust has settled. I may be wrong. You are in the situation, not me, but I don't at any point get a sense from what you've said that this is anything but part of a process which will result in the dissolving of your marriage. The more you can reduce the impact of that on your future chances of friendship (and that happens often) during this process, is in my opinion, to the good. Getting involved in tempestuous arguments is unlikely to help that.
It's tough. I can only imagine what it must be like to have the heartbreak of a relationship ending and all this shit on top of it. But you are getting through it. That's what you are doing right now.
Maybe I am wrong, and talking would be a good thing to do. I don't know. But my instincts still tell me you should listen to your lawyers.
Can we have some input from people who've been through it?
My ex and I are friends, but it wasn't always easy. I hope you can get to that point, deuce. You have to be so very patient. Hang in there!
Right now things are likely so fraught it may be difficult to interract 'normally'.
True, DanaC...sometimes you have to wait, move slowly...when you're in the middle of all this it is just too painful.
If she hadn't filed a restraining order, I'd suggest counseling of some sort. It helps some people - not all people. Couples counseling helped me for awhile. Until I realized my husband just didn't have it in him to be honest - not with me, not himself, not the counselor, not anyone. Proof you both have to want it to work in order for it to work.
Which brings me to me next point: she doesn't want it to work. A restraining order is a pretty clear indication that she either (1) fears you and is removing you from her life, or (2) she's playing some kind of sick game because she wants it all on her terms, and do you really want any of that crazy-bitch action?
As long as there is a restraining order, do not have contact with the woman, even if she attempts to lure you into it. The law is clear, and there will be no excuse for you to violate the order, even if she initiates contact. She may be putting on a nice act to get you to do what she wants (i.e. make the divorce easy for her, and not rack up any more legal bills fighting her for it.) Actions speak louder than words, and right now her actions are divorcing and restraining you.
Letting go may be an option to consider here. Sometimes we want what we just can't have. I didn't want to get divorced. But I didn't want to be miserable more than that. It's not the end of the world. And it's been my experience that, for the most part, time heals all wounds. Have faith that this is happening for a reason - that Life is taking you in another direction than the one you were previously heading in, and one day it will all be clear to you.
Deuce, I can't comment on the US legal side of things, but I do agree with others that have posted here that it seems that your wife does not want the marriage to continue, and feels sufficiently strongly about it to set legal restrictions on your actions/contact with her and your child. As others have said this can only be for one of two reasons: either through actual fear of you, or through a wish to manipulate things to her own advantage. Only you can tell which of those is her motivation - think about it carefully. It's also worth repeating that if she is subjecting you to a restraining order which limits your contact with her, then it is hypocritical of her (at best) to be ringing you and urging you to contact her.
The best things I think you can do under the circumstances are to look out for yourself, get good legal advice, and never badmouth your wife to your child. Blake said it best - if you love something you must be able to let it go. Let your wife go.
I wish you strength, and the loving support of your friends and family at this most difficult of times.
It's been a while since Deuce mentioned her calling. Perhaps she hasn't for a while. And, Deuce, have you called her? You say you have been talking and that not all the talks have been bad. There must be some progress towards the good if you can call it that. Is she initiating all of your conversations or are you a willing partner?
I will still play the devil's advocate and give them both the benefit of the doubt. Not knowing either one, I will not condemn either. I hope things work our both both of you so that you may, hopefully, come out the other side as, perhaps, friends instead of enemies for your sons sake.
Can't sleep.
That's why I'm at the office at 5:30...wondering thinking why I'm all alone out in the cold.
edit:
Holy crap you all responded and I didn't even see them.. I didn't refresh the screen. d'oh. Thanks.
shit. I had a long htankful post written. to all of you.
I lost it. I am lost.
today is our 16th wedding anniversary. Happy Anniversary!!
I'm going back over to that other thread. I'm broken. I'm done. I will never be whole again. My whole life has been ripped from me. What I have given is gone. My name will be removed from the history books. I'm being written out of the play. My usefulness has expired. I have nothing to offer. All that remains is the cooling rotting corpse. "Come away from there!" Don't touch it! That's not good for you! You'll get sick! You'll get hurt! Leave that alone, I don't care if it looks like your daddy, it's dangerous.
goddammit I can't win. I can't survive.
The best part about hitting bottom is that everything gets better from that point. It is clarifying, transformative, and it makes you into a wiser and better human being.
.
The other day my band was playing this doofy little bar, like we always do, and we played
"She Hates Me",
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=5][SIZE=2] She fucking hates me
trust
she fucking hates me
la la la love
I tried too hard
and she tore my feelings like I had none
and ripped them away
[/SIZE][/SIZE][/FONT]
And this middle-aged guy comes over and tells us how much he absolutely loves us for playing that, it was a moment for him; and then, how his wife hated him and divorced him and now he's out living and loving life.
And for the rest of the night he danced up close with this chick who looked like she was about 16 and had no ass at all. I mean it was weird, but you know there are these skinny chicks that are so skinny that they have no ass or hips, and I personally wouldn't go there because it would feel weird, she could have been his daughter, but there he was with her in all his glory.
shit. I had a long htankful post written. to all of you.
I lost it. I am lost.
today is our 16th wedding anniversary. Happy Anniversary!!
I'm going back over to that other thread. I'm broken. I'm done. I will never be whole again. My whole life has been ripped from me. What I have given is gone. My name will be removed from the history books. I'm being written out of the play. My usefulness has expired. I have nothing to offer. All that remains is the cooling rotting corpse. "Come away from there!" Don't touch it! That's not good for you! You'll get sick! You'll get hurt! Leave that alone, I don't care if it looks like your daddy, it's dangerous.
goddammit I can't win. I can't survive.
Yes you can, she is NOT you. You can move on without her and redefine yourself.
That you feel this way SHOWS that you were in an unhealthy relationship.
I wish you could see this.
She is a separate person who is CHOOSING to handle this in the way she is because SHE wants to... it says NOTHING about YOU.
See that and let it help you sever those feelings.
Start working on creating love for yourself and your life now, she is the past and only that.
Also worth remembering that she is not your children either. Just because she is limiting your contact right now and you feel cut off from your family, she is only separating herself from you in the long term. Your children will still be your children regardless of whether she is your wife or not.
Exactly, the faster you win this, the faster you will get to spend time with your children.
The better you do at this divorce the more time and rights you will have with your children.
As hard as it is to see her this way, she is currently your adversary.
Seeing her that way can help to focus your pain.
That right there, that inability to argue constructively is one of our biggest problems. We're for sure arguing now, still, but it's through expen$ive proxie$. Better we should just learn to work out our differences better.
gah. who said it? somebbody said let them work it out. Man, that sounds appealing. I want to work it out, I just don't know how, when anything I say can be read as an attack on her. How do I do that?
We have so much to go on, and we're stuck arguing about he said she said. It's really discouraging. Even at this stage, we need to communicate. I want to communicate. To make myself understood, and to understand her. At this point, we're talking with legal papers, and even those are confusing. Can't we just, you know, talk? Understand each other?
How the hell do all you people do it?
How would you all suggest I communicate with her?
I'm open to suggestions. Please.
Honestly Deuce? I can't offer any advice on that. I think you stand more chance of understanding each other, after the divorce is complete and the dust has settled. ...
Can we have some input from people who've been through it?
Hmmph. I need help now on how to communicate with her now. After the divorce is final is too late, it is too far in the future. I want to know how to better handle the situation at hand now.
My ex and I are friends, but it wasn't always easy. I hope you can get to that point, deuce. You have to be so very patient. Hang in there!
Friends with ex.. more future past tense. I admit that that sounds good, that "someday" we can be friends but "today" there are lives being demolished. The plans for those future lives are being written "today". I need to communicate with her "today" so those plans can make the best possible lives for all, including and especially our YS.
Right now things are likely so fraught it may be difficult to interract 'normally'.
heh. I'm curious though. What is this "normally" thing you're talking about?
True, DanaC...sometimes you have to wait, move slowly...when you're in the middle of all this it is just too painful.
god, what an understatement.
If she hadn't filed a restraining order, I'd suggest counseling of some sort. It helps some people - not all people. Couples counseling helped me for awhile. Until I realized my husband just didn't have it in him to be honest - not with me, not himself, not the counselor, not anyone. Proof you both have to want it to work in order for it to work.
Wow. Sounds familiar. We've been to counseling. There may be more counseling ahead. Your remarks about your husband's inability to be honest--ouch. I have been accused of the same thing. Exactly the same thing. That's a major stumbling block between us. How do you, no, how does one determine honesty? Especially when it's just the three of you in the room? He said, she said, and the counselor flips a coin?
Honestly (no pun intended) I wish for nothing more than for us to understand each other. Review my posts. You will find a very consistent line there, my desire for us to make that connection. But we disagree on some things and we have not found a way around them. I believe she has come to exactly the same conclusion you have, she's given up waiting for me to be honest. See ya. She no longer
wants to work it out.
But from these shoes, I am being honest.
I believe it is possible for me, or you, or her, to believe something, and be wrong. I believe I'm being honest. I could be wrong. She believes I'm a danger to her and to my son. She's wrong. She believes I'm being dishonest. She's wrong. How are such disconnects ever resolved?
In my experience, there are a number of ways. Some things are objectively measurable. So measure it. What is the answer and to how many decimal places? That's a good way to resolve the gap between belief and truth.
There are some areas where belief is not easily measured, though. She filed the restraining order and said she feared for her safety and for our son's safety. I think she believed it, and so that was true. But it didn't happen, there have been no triple ax murder suicides in the papers, you'd've seen it, no? So fear, true; unfounded, true. But it could happen tomorrow! Repeat the process. There's no end to this. I can never prove it. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Especially when we're talking about what "could" happen.
Better we should change the discussion to what probably will happen. There the ground is firmer, because then you can fairly incorporate into your predictions the facts of what has gone before. Certainly there are limits to the usefulness of this process, but we all use it successfully every stinkin day. What mostly happens? xyz. What will probably happen? more x, more y, more z. Is there anyone out there that doesn't operate this way? Is there any functional adult in the audience who has to relearn the world each morning from experience, with no help from his memory? I didn't think so. And that dude from Memento doesn't count.
So far, so good. But we fail (recursively) to decide on what x is. On what y is. It's very very discouraging. Ideally, the strategy outlined above is applicable here too. Can you measure it? If so, do so. Compare the measurements to the reported
Which brings us back to do. There has to be some willingness to try to reach understanding with the other. I can not conceive of an acceptable substitute for that willingness, that desire to connect to the other. Absent that, all is lost.
Which brings me to me next point: she doesn't want it to work. A restraining order is a pretty clear indication that she either (1) fears you and is removing you from her life, or (2) she's playing some kind of sick game because she wants it all on her terms, and do you really want any of that crazy-bitch action?
As long as there is a restraining order, do not have contact with the woman, even if she attempts to lure you into it. The law is clear, and there will be no excuse for you to violate the order, even if she initiates contact. She may be putting on a nice act to get you to do what she wants (i.e. make the divorce easy for her, and not rack up any more legal bills fighting her for it.) Actions speak louder than words, and right now her actions are divorcing and restraining you.
*sigh*
Letting go may be an option to consider here. Sometimes we want what we just can't have. I didn't want to get divorced. But I didn't want to be miserable more than that. It's not the end of the world. And it's been my experience that, for the most part, time heals all wounds. Have faith that this is happening for a reason - that Life is taking you in another direction than the one you were previously heading in, and one day it will all be clear to you.
To me, this is the most true and most painful and most likely. Thanks, kinda.
Deuce, I can't comment on the US legal side of things, but I do agree with others that have posted here that it seems that your wife does not want the marriage to continue, and feels sufficiently strongly about it to set legal restrictions on your actions/contact with her and your child. As others have said this can only be for one of two reasons: either through actual fear of you, or through a wish to manipulate things to her own advantage. Only you can tell which of those is her motivation - think about it carefully. It's also worth repeating that if she is subjecting you to a restraining order which limits your contact with her, then it is hypocritical of her (at best) to be ringing you and urging you to contact her.
The best things I think you can do under the circumstances are to look out for yourself, get good legal advice, and never badmouth your wife to your child. Blake said it best - if you love something you must be able to let it go. Let your wife go.
I wish you strength, and the loving support of your friends and family at this most difficult of times.
See above.
It's been a while since Deuce mentioned her calling. Perhaps she hasn't for a while. And, Deuce, have you called her? You say you have been talking and that not all the talks have been bad. There must be some progress towards the good if you can call it that. Is she initiating all of your conversations or are you a willing partner?
I have called her as much as I dare. Mostly my calls are ignored. When they're not ignored, we mostly get into a fight on the phone. I hate that. It's like we're speaking two different languages. Have you ever been in that situation? You hear them talking but you don't understand what they're saying, and they don't understand you? We're there. Except we don't have the mutual interest in trying to understand each other. She thinks all my actions and words are attacks on her. She thinks I'm dangerous or sneaky or mean or all three.
I will still play the devil's advocate and give them both the benefit of the doubt. Not knowing either one, I will not condemn either. I hope things work our both both of you so that you may, hopefully, come out the other side as, perhaps, friends instead of enemies for your sons sake.
I love her. I can see that while I wish to remain her husband, she is unwilling to remain my wife. I will accept friend if that is the best I can hope for. But tragically, she doesn't consider me a friend either.
And the threat that I represent to her is magnified when our son is the topic of conversation. I don't know what to do.
Well, she just called me. She answered a question I asked her this morning. I asked her if I could come by after work to give her a card and some flowers. It's our 16th wedding anniversary today.
She said no. She said she's scared of me.
Deuce. Is she genuinely scared of you? If you believe she is, what grounds does she have for that fear?
I hate to say this, but if this is the tack she chooses, I would limit all communications to those routed through my lawyer.
I promise you, anything can be turned to a negative if this is what she is saying. It does not matter if it is genuine or not.
Flowers can equal harassment.
I would not answers calls from her. It could be bait.
You want to spend as much time with your son as you can... WIN.
How can you say, "this is the tack she chooses" when we don't even know her. For that matter we don't know Deuce. Yes, he is a member of this site and she is not but we do not know that her "tack" is unwarranted. Maybe it is. Sorry, but I have to play devil's advocate again. You are condemning a woman we do not even know. I hope foe the sake of the both of them that this fear she has is not so. BUT, if it is, perhaps she has a right to protect herself.
rkzenrage: Dude. "bait"?? wtf? I'm glad I don't live in a world where a call is bait. I can't. I can't function in a world where that level of paranoia is required to function.
YOu're right on one score, however. I do want to ensure that our son isn't deprived of the chance to be fathered, by me. To me that means, as a prerequisite, as a minimum, showing up. Being present. I want to be with him every day. I couldn't see him today and it kills me.
It is not good for a boy to not have a father.
Deuce,
Have you seen him since this all started? Have you spoken to him?
Yes, I have seen him, I have spoken to him. I miss him terribly. He has told me that he misses me, and that kills me. I should not be so absent that I'm missed. He needs me, he needs his father. He needs his mother too. But right now I'm being shut out, prevented from spending time with him, and that's not right. That's not good for a young boy.
I want what's best for our son, and that means being there, but I am not there.
How come you won't divulge why it is she thinks you're a danger to her and her son? Restraining orders usually require some sort of evidence - they're just issued willy-nilly on any old whim.
Perhaps getting to the root of that will give you the solution to the problem.
How come you won't divulge why it is she thinks you're a danger to her and her son? Restraining orders usually require some sort of evidence - they're just issued willy-nilly on any old whim.
Perhaps getting to the root of that will give you the solution to the problem.
A woman needs say no more than "I'm scared" to get a restraining order on her husband - thats a fact!
Deuce - You gotta shake this off and fight your ass off to get this shit done and over with as quickly as possible - you need to accept the reality that she doesn't want you in her life - AND that has nothing to do with your son. They are two completely seperate issues. The fact that you are being temporarily shut out TOTALLY SUX, but that is temporary - Don't lose sight of that. I lost all three of my kids for months - I didn't even talk to my daughter for almost 6 months! That time has passed for me and I see much clearer now. I talk to every one of them every day.
You need unemotional counsel to guide you through this. You are not in a state of mind to make the best and/or most rational decisions - you yourself have admitted this. You need someone to take the wheel for a bit to let your emotions catch up with your intellect.
I've been there - right there where you are crying non-stop with no feelings other than dispair, no joy, no happiness, no energy. Just a lot of nothingness and negativity. All I can say is STOP IT now and focus on the future and the many wonderful times you will spend with your son as soon as you get all this crap over with. Get the lawyer, get the help and get this shit done.
Then get your ass over here cuz we're goin tuna fishin or bottom fishin together on the boat - whatever HE wants! You and your son with me and my boys.
That, my friend, is an open invitation and a promise.
F
O
C
U
S
(I'm just keeping in mind there's 3 sides to every story: his, hers, and the truth. We're only getting 1 side. And I smell something fishy. And it's not ********'s twat this time.)
kgg this isn't about condemning her. This is about ensuring that if what she is doing is being done as part of the 'divorce game' then deuce protects himself.
I couldn't give a shit abotu her, because I don't know her and she's never posted here. Doesn't mean I think she's in the wrong, she might be in the right. Not the point: Deuce is here, he's a dwellar, we want him to be okay. The advice here in this thread is offered in that spirit.
Also...the woman has taken out court orders against him. She has prevented him from seeing his children. It does not really matter whether her reasons were valid/understandable to us or not. Right now, anger is deuce's friend. She is not.
Smurf, I see your point, and indeed I have asked the same question. Ultimately though, it doesn't really matter. What matters is that Deuce and his (ex) wife get to the end of this process with as little trauma as possible. What matters is that at the end of this process there will be a degree of peace and stability in which to reflect on it.
I'm glad to see you hanging in there Deuce. Think about getting an order allowing you visitation with your son. That should be a relatively simple thing to do.
Obviously the restraining order doesn't say "no contact whatsoever" as he has stated, he has seen and talked to his son. So that is a good thing. Obviously she is not being vindictive otherwise it would be no contact period, over and out. Yes, there are two sides to every story, I agree and even though he is a dwellar, she still has a story that perhaps has truth to it as well.
She is being portrayed as someone who is saying "I;m scared" just to be mean. I don't get that feeling.
Obviously the restraining order doesn't say "no contact whatsoever" as he has stated, he has seen and talked to his son. So that is a good thing. Obviously she is not being vindictive otherwise it would be no contact period, over and out.
Wait a minute. Where did I say that the restraining order says "no contact whatsoever"?
You're absolutely right about contact with our son. That is a very good thing, a boy needs his father. There are some things a mother can't do for a adolescent boy. For him to be the best, most complete person possible, he needs both parents. There are some things that only a Dad can do. And the overwhelming evidence of the harm suffered by children across the country from not having a Dad around is terrifying. And tragic in this case, since I am not being a deadbeat dad, I **want** to be there, but I am being prevented from being there. That is wrong, and directly harmful to our son.
As to the vindictiveness.... there is plenty hurt to go around here, and adults can fight mean. But injuring our child because one parent is mad at the other is wrong. I won't stand for it.
Yes, there are two sides to every story, I agree and even though he is a dwellar, she still has a story that perhaps has truth to it as well.
Well, for sure everybody here has had an earful of my side of the story. Obviously, I can't tell her side of the story. ***That's exactly*** the problem, she doesn't believe I understand her, and I guess I don't. I wish she'd tell her side of the story. Undoubtedly there is truth to her side as well. But every time I try to repeat back to her what I understand she's saying, I get it wrong. And when she tells me what I'm thinking and meaning, that's often wrong. It is fucked up. You want her side of the story, ask her. I've tried explaining it here, apparently I can't make myself understood to y'all any better than I can make myself understood to her.
She is being portrayed as someone who is saying "I;m scared" just to be mean. I don't get that feeling.
I'm curious, what feeling
do you get?
Here's my take on it. First the bad news. She can be mean. Some of the things she says to me,
heh.
I put up a whole freakin thread about it. Y'know what it's called? I want to die. You could look it up. I dont' know if you've seen it or posted there... She has an ability, unmatched in the whole world, to hurt me more than anyone or anything else. And it's because I have deliberately left my heart open to her. I love her. While I remain open to sharing my love for her and the possiblity for her love for me, I remain open as well for the hurt. I could protect myself from such hurt, by closing my heart. But I won't. I can't.
I have taken an enormous amount of shit from a lot of people who say why put up with that?, read the thread here for yourself. I can't explain it any better than that. I love her, and that make me vulnerable to her.
Now the .. what? less bad news. I think she's saying "I'm scared" because she is scared. But unreasonably so. The things she's told me she's scared about all hinge on how someday I'll blow up and hurt everybody. She's told me she's lain awake with 9-1- already dialed with her finger on the 1, cause she's afraid I'm going to try to kill her.
That just makes me want to cry.
Kill her? Somebody who's afraid like that, how can *I* put them at ease? I'm the very source of the fear? If you have a suggestion, I'm all ears.
I don't think it's because she is trying to be mean, despite the fact that the results of her actions hurt me far more than she knows, and hurts our son far more than she knows. I think she's acting, no, overreacting out of fear. But those fears are completely unfounded. I don't know how to tell her that. I wish I did.
Not you[I][/I] saying no contact whatsoever. I am talking about the others that have responded here hinting that that is the case. That doesn't seem to be the case here. No need to get defensive. I'm not out to get you. It sounds like she is allowing you contact with him albeit it is not 24 hrs/day.
You won't stand for one parent being mean to the other. I can understand that completely. So are you saying she is the only one being mean. Your posts can seem pretty mean spirited. It is one thing to be passionate about your feelings but both people can go too far with the end result possibly hurting the child. I can't imagine either one of you would do that intentionally. She is hurting you, you are probably hurting her too. It's just that she took action and that hurts worse. I don't know.
being married for...what did you say....16 years? I imagine both of you know exactly what buttons to push to maximize the hurt factor. You are hurt. Understandable. She must be hurting to so take that into consideration. If you both do that, hopefully the anger will go away. 16 years is a long time to not feel some compassion for each other. Try it. I messed up a long term relationship because I didn't try it and am now much wiser because of it.
rkzenrage: Dude. "bait"?? wtf? I'm glad I don't live in a world where a call is bait. I can't. I can't function in a world where that level of paranoia is required to function.
YOu're right on one score, however. I do want to ensure that our son isn't deprived of the chance to be fathered, by me. To me that means, as a prerequisite, as a minimum, showing up. Being present. I want to be with him every day. I couldn't see him today and it kills me.
It is not good for a boy to not have a father.
Who said anything about a son not having a father? In fact I was the one trying to tell you how to make sure you don't slip-up in that area.
Be paranoid about everything else but the person who is trying to actually do what you are worried about... don't listen to me at all, this will be my last post.
I have been around this kind of stuff my whole life and know how these restraining orders work and know that people will create openings for others to walk through them on their own so they will have that on their side in court or deliberations later.
If she is playing this to win and you are just trying to get to talk to her and spend every second with your son every day that you can and she knows this, you are fucked. Have fun, because you are not in this for the long haul.
A divorce is not about feelings it is about assets and privileges and who "deserves" them and there are no rules as to how the perception of that is obtained and it seems to me that you are completely unaware as to what is happening here.
I gave you advice based on experience, those orders are nothing to play with, every word you say can be turned and used against you....
But you chose to try to make it seem like I was your enemy by trying to show you that.
Forget it man, forget you.
I think Smurf and I know from experience here. Professional and otherwise. Please, please listen Deuce.
But you chose to try to make it seem like I was your enemy by trying to show you that.
Forget it man, forget you.
rk, I think you are being unfair there.
I'm sorry Deuce...your world turned into a paranoid thriller when your own wife said that you were a threat to her and your family. It's called reality...paranoid...yes...but also your new reality.
Either way- she shouldn't be talking to you. I don't know what you did. But she has got to stop- this can get you in deep doo-doo.
I get two impressions here. One is that they are talking and attempting, at times, to work things through. She has not called the cops yet and why would she because they can just say she allowed him to talk/see her. The other one is, Deuce is wanting[I][/I]to talk to her as well. So he in fact isn't too worried about the restraining order and must trust her somewhat in that she hasn't called him in. He knows her better than we.
So Deuce, I ask you, do you really think she will call? I think that perhaps she is afraid due to something we do not know about but that she must still care enough to want to work through some things together with you in a friendly manner. Am I wrong? And one last thing, we don't know that she keeps[I][/I] calling him. He hasn't said that she is the one doing all the calling. It sounds like he is calling her too. Fess up man.
She has not called the cops yet and why would she because they can just say she allowed him to talk/see her. The other one is, Deuce is wantingto talk to her as well. So he in fact isn't too worried about the restraining order and must trust her somewhat in that she hasn't called him in. He knows her better than we.
People lie. If the stakes are a better deal in the divorce and custody of children, then it has to be considered as a possibility. Even if it's unlikely, because the cost of calling that wrong are very fucking high if you're a Dad who wants access to his kids.
Of course Deuce wants to talk to her, he is in love with her and doesn't want the relationship to end. Newsflash, she clearly does.
I think that perhaps she is afraid due to something we do not know about but that she must still care enough to want to work through some things together with you in a friendly manner.
Has anything Deuce said given you even the slightest indication that she wants to work through anything in a friendly manner?
Deuce, kgg is telling you what you want to hear. he is doing so in all genuine good intent I am sure. But...it's still what you want to hear, not what you need to hear. That's my opinion anyway.
Not you[I][/I] saying no contact whatsoever. I am talking about the others that have responded here hinting that that is the case. That doesn't seem to be the case here. No need to get defensive. I'm not out to get you. It sounds like she is allowing you contact with him albeit it is not 24 hrs/day.
You won't stand for one parent being mean to the other.
While I do think that it is bad for one parent to be mean to the other, you really missed what I said.
But injuring our child because one parent is mad at the other is wrong. I won't stand for it.
It is the welfare of our son that I am most concerned about. These two are so closely linked that they're difficult to separate. But it is a greater tragedy that our son suffers because we're unable to get along, or because we're unable to manage our conflict in a constructive manner.
I can understand that completely. So are you saying she is the only one being mean.
No, I have said that there's hurt on both sides. There's so much hurt that we can't see our way back to each other, back to the love and family that we share. rkzenrage has already given up on me. My wife has given up on me. I haven't given up. I'm working through the pain to reach her. Through *my* pain. Trying not to increase *her* pain. I have never said that she's the only one being mean... I hurt and she hurts.
Your posts can seem pretty mean spirited.
Ok, I guess I misunderstood you about the "no contact" thing in the other quote. But I have to ask you again, which of my posts "seem pretty mean spirited"? For sure, I was writing at times when I was crushed with pain, drowned with fear. But I went back and re-read them, and I don't see the meanness you're talking about.
I'm asking because I've heard this before. "That hurt, that was mean." I must have some blind spot here, and dammit, it's a problem for me. I have never posted anything with that intention. What did I post that was mean? Can you explain that to me, please?
It is one thing to be passionate about your feelings but both people can go too far with the end result possibly hurting the child. I can't imagine either one of you would do that intentionally.
Nor can I imagine it, not even unintentionally. She is a very strong person, and fiercely protective of our children. I admire that. And there is no limit to the love I have for our children. Right now, the hurt our youngest son is suffering, and believe me, he is suffering, is from our inability to manage our conflict constructively. In fact, it's so bad that our fighting hurts him, and the fighting that's leading to divorce hurts him. And this is likely just the opening act. Actually living apart will be awful, expensive, and destructive. It will be like dying. There will be a death of the family our son has known all his life, the only family structure he knows. If that pain is avoidable, and I am convinced that it is possible to avoid it, that I should withhold nothing in my efforts to do so.
She is hurting you, you are probably hurting her too. It's just that she took action and that hurts worse. I don't know.
being married for...what did you say....16 years? I imagine both of you know exactly what buttons to push to maximize the hurt factor. You are hurt. Understandable. She must be hurting to so take that into consideration. If you both do that, hopefully the anger will go away.
Yes, sadly, you're right. I regret that I agree with you, she is hurting. And the fucked up part of it is that I am the source of that pain. I can't tell you how much I hate that. I would stop it in an instant if I knew what to stop. And I can do that too. I am a strong person too. I can take action, I can persevere. I do not shirk from hard work.
And, yes, I am hurting too.
I want to give her every consideration, I want compassion and forgiveness and love to flow again. It is there. But I don't know how to get to it.
16 years is a long time to not feel some compassion for each other. Try it.
I messed up a long term relationship because I didn't try it and am now much wiser because of it.
I am filled with compassion for her, and I think there is some compassion in her for me, but that it is hidden behind a protective wall, made of bricks of anger mortared together by pain. Anger and pain topped by fear makes a redoubtable defense. I love her, and I weep for her pain and fear. But I don't know how to salve it.
They say that you learn from your mistakes, but there are so many mistakes to be made, that I don't think I could fit them all into my one lifetime. Better I should learn from my mistakes and the mistakes of others. You paint a sympathetic picture, and your last remark intrigues me. If you are willing, I would like to hear about your experience. Perhaps I could avoid the mistakes you lived through. I could sure use the help. I would like to benefit from your increased wisdom.
Deuce, you haven't sounded at all mean spirited to me in your posts. You just sound like someone who is hurting.
And the fucked up part of it is that I am the source of that pain. I can't tell you how much I hate that. I would stop it in an instant if I knew what to stop. And I can do that too. I am a strong person too. I can take action, I can persevere. I do not shirk from hard work.
Sometimes it isn't about changing, isn't about hardwork. Sometimes it is simply that two people are no longer compatible, are no longer good for each other. It's entirely possible that the things your wife says she can't deal with (like you being hurtful, or not being emotionally honest) are merely manifestations of that lack of compatibility. It's equally possible (indeed probable) that the same things that drew her to you now drive her from you. What may have seemed like strength and self sufficiency when she was in love, may seem like a lack of openness now. What may have seemed like passion and fire, may now seem like frightening anger.
The things that first attract us are often the things that later repel us.
You seem to believe this is your fault Deuce. You seem to have taken on all the responsibility for making this situation: like it's all because you can't express yourself or let her in, or are too angry and explosive. More likely, but more painful as it's fundamentally unfixable, is that the person she is now is not in love with the person you are now. That doesn't mean the peson you are is wrong.
You say you love your wife, but do you respect her? She has clearly stated what she wants (and doesn't want), but are you accepting that?
She is not half of you...she is her own person, with her own feelings, needs, desires, and choices to make. Love allows the other person to be free to go their own way, even if it hurts like all hell and honors their stated wishes, even if it rips your own heart out.
Self-esteem draws the line at continuing to give one's all when that is becoming destructive to one's wellbeing. When you feel like you cannot live without her, then you have possibly become overinvested in her and unhealthily enmeshed. Often, when that happens, the person who has done so becomes controlling and obsessive over their partner (although I do not know if that is true in your marriage).
If someone really loves, honors and respects another, they will not continue to argue a point clearly stated, call against their wishes, write them, and/or invade their world without an express invitation.
If your wife went to the trouble to get an RO, then she obviously has issues with your form of contact with her. Is it not possible to step back and allow her the space that she apparently so desparately desires?
[SIZE="1"]"Approximately sixty-nine percent of all relationship conflicts never will be resolved. It is more important not to hurt the other person instead of finding out who is right or wrong." [/SIZE]
Your relationship with your son is completely separate from the one with your wife. It is the one that you can affect at this point. Why not concentrate your energies on strengthening that relationship and doing what is necessary to preserve your spot in his life (visitation, contact arrangements, etc.)?
I do not believe that the greatest gift you can give your son is to love his mother, I believe the greatest gift you can give your son is to love
him. Period. A steadfast, solid love that never waivers and is not dependant upon your relationship with his mother is much more important to a child than anything else. In fact, parent's relationships with each other should be kept totally OUT of their relationship with their children. Kids need to know that their mother and father love them even if/when the marriage breaks up and that they are not involved in that whatsoever.
Get an attorney, make unshakeable visitation arrangements and let time heal the wounds. When emotions have cooled down and the shock has worn off, there will be plenty of time to analyse, dissect and discuss what happened. Sometimes there is no understanding possible, one must simply accept the situation and make the best of it.
Time and space will usually bring clarity.
kgg this isn't about condemning her. This is about ensuring that if what she is doing is being done as part of the 'divorce game' then deuce protects himself.
I couldn't give a shit abotu her, because I don't know her and she's never posted here. Doesn't mean I think she's in the wrong, she might be in the right. Not the point: Deuce is here, he's a dwellar, we want him to be okay. The advice here in this thread is offered in that spirit.
Also...the woman has taken out court orders against him. She has prevented him from seeing his children. It does not really matter whether her reasons were valid/understandable to us or not. Right now, anger is deuce's friend. She is not.
Smurf, I see your point, and indeed I have asked the same question. Ultimately though, it doesn't really matter. What matters is that Deuce and his (ex) wife get to the end of this process with as little trauma as possible. What matters is that at the end of this process there will be a degree of peace and stability in which to reflect on it.
I thank you for your concern for me, truly I do. I would hope that you care for the things I care about too, which means a certain amount of compassion and respect for my wife. **I** give a shit about her.
Who said anything about a son not having a father? In fact I was the one trying to tell you how to make sure you don't slip-up in that area.
Be paranoid about everything else but the person who is trying to actually do what you are worried about... don't listen to me at all, this will be my last post.
I have been around this kind of stuff my whole life and know how these restraining orders work and know that people will create openings for others to walk through them on their own so they will have that on their side in court or deliberations later.
If she is playing this to win and you are just trying to get to talk to her and spend every second with your son every day that you can and she knows this, you are fucked. Have fun, because you are not in this for the long haul.
A divorce is not about feelings it is about assets and privileges and who "deserves" them and there are no rules as to how the perception of that is obtained and it seems to me that you are completely unaware as to what is happening here.
I gave you advice based on experience, those orders are nothing to play with, every word you say can be turned and used against you....
But you chose to try to make it seem like I was your enemy by trying to show you that.
Forget it man, forget you.
Man, I think you're full of it. Divorce is not about feelings? Right, that's why Costco carries them in a handy twelve pack. Are you cracked? Are you a Vulcan? I previously excused you from answering for precisely this reason. Your money's no good on my planet. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and permit myself to think you were acting with good intentions. Good or not, your delivery sucks and I'm done with you too. Buhbye.
I think Smurf and I know from experience here. Professional and otherwise. Please, please listen Deuce.
Perhaps you two do, I damn sure don't. I'm trying my hardest to do what needs to be done, to do the right thing, to achieve the greatest good while causing the least harm. It's not easy in the best of circumstances, and I appreciate the different perspectives here, the opportunity to share the wisdom gained from other's experiences. But, I must filter all that input into what works for my situation. rkzenrage's for example, not working for me. Thankfully, others here have offered insights that I can apply.
I'm sorry Deuce...your world turned into a paranoid thriller when your own wife said that you were a threat to her and your family. It's called reality...paranoid...yes...but also your new reality.
Either way- she shouldn't be talking to you. I don't know what you did. But she has got to stop- this can get you in deep doo-doo.
I know. It scares the shit out of me. But I'm not able to just walk away. I can't. I don't know how to explain that more betterer. Not talking is how we got into this fuckin mess. Somebody's got to talk to get us to any conclusion. Lord knows I'm motivated and, as you can plainly see, I'm a talker.
jeeze I can't keep up with you guys. I'm not complaining, I find it helpful. It's just waay more input than I've had recently. Like coming back from a ... what do you call those things where you go away and enjoy the silence ... a retreat.
Yes, an enforced retreat (also known as solitary confinement). Please, continue.
I thank you for your concern for me, truly I do. I would hope that you care for the things I care about too, which means a certain amount of compassion and respect for my wife. **I** give a shit about her.
My apologies Deuce, my words came out more harshly than I had intended. I was simply trying to get across to kgg, that here and now this community's main concern is you, as you are the dwellar. You are the one we are looking out for here. We're not here to be 'fair' we're here to be supportive, of you.
jeeze I can't keep up with you guys. I'm not complaining, I find it helpful.
Sorry mate, I think we bombarded you a little:P
Thank you, I accept your apology.
Deuce, kgg is telling you what you want to hear. he is doing so in all genuine good intent I am sure. But...it's still what you want to hear, not what you need to hear. That's my opinion anyway.
As I said, I appreciate the input, some is helpful, some is less so. I freely admit that I do like what kgg says. I think his insights are valuable, and I
do like hearing them. I also value the good intentions of all those concerned and generous enough to offer their input. Even rkzenrage, without qualification.
I am grateful.
What's the current situation then Deuce? Did you sort out a lawyer?
I get two impressions here. One is that they are talking and attempting, at times, to work things through. She has not called the cops yet and why would she because they can just say she allowed him to talk/see her. The other one is, Deuce is wanting[I][/I]to talk to her as well. So he in fact isn't too worried about the restraining order and must trust her somewhat in that she hasn't called him in. He knows her better than we.
Stop a minute. Correction. I am terrified of the potential downside of the restraining order. It is a MAJOR obstacle to our communication. I feel she ordered it to get some confidence that she would be protected physically, but had no idea what a communication block it represents. She said she was afraid what I would do when I got the news of the divorce. Those fears have proved to be completely unfounded.
So Deuce, I ask you, do you really think she will call? I think that perhaps she is afraid due to something we do not know about but that she must still care enough to want to work through some things together with you in a friendly manner. Am I wrong? And one last thing, we don't know that she keeps[I][/I] calling him. He hasn't said that she is the one doing all the calling. It sounds like he is calling her too. Fess up man.
Yes, I think she will call. I think she will call if she gets the sense that her safety is at risk, or the safety of our son. I think you're right, she is afraid. But her fears are unfounded. The things she said she was worried might happen, never happened. I never became violent, I never took our son, I never stalked, threatened, harassed, approached, etc etc. Good grief.
Frankly she should call in those situations. But you don't need a restraining order to have that kind of protection. A restraining order doesn't make the cops get there any faster when you dial 911.
You mention care. I wish she cared. I wonder if she cares. If she does care, she's sending seriously mixed messages. I hope she cares. I care. I want to work things out too, and friendly is better.
I don't exactly follow you on what you want me to fess up about. Clarify please.
[QUOTE=kgg]She has not called the cops yet and why would she because they can just say she allowed him to talk/see her. The other one is, Deuce is wantingto talk to her as well. So he in fact isn't too worried about the restraining order and must trust her somewhat in that she hasn't called him in. He knows her better than we.
People lie. If the stakes are a better deal in the divorce and custody of children, then it has to be considered as a possibility. Even if it's unlikely, because the cost of calling that wrong are very fucking high if you're a Dad who wants access to his kids.[/QUOTE]She could be lying, I don't know. I don't think so. I evaluate this continuously. When I feel endangered, I cease contact. I can't parent my son from jail. You're damn skippy the stakes are high. Nothing in my life has represented higher stakes than this. I am paying attention, you can bet the rent.
Of course Deuce wants to talk to her, he is in love with her and doesn't want the relationship to end. Newsflash, she clearly does.
Some clarifications. I do love her. Not exactly the same as in love, though.
The relationship will not end, whether or not I want it to. I know the relationship will continue, because we have a young child together,
that binds us.
I absofreakinlutely guarantee that the relationship will change. We can not continue as we are. The conflict, the arguing. **NOT** sustainable, not endurable, not healthy. We will change. We may be together, married. We may be together as divorced parents of a young child whom we both love. We may be divorced parents of a child we love that have not found a way to manage their conflict constructively and consequently limit the exposure and opportunity for conflict to the barest minimum. There will be a change, the current situation will not continue. I promise.
Has anything Deuce said given you even the slightest indication that she wants to work through anything in a friendly manner?
Deuce, kgg is telling you what you want to hear. he is doing so in all genuine good intent I am sure. But...it's still what you want to hear, not what you need to hear. That's my opinion anyway.
That's actually a good question, I don't know. Have I?
Deuce, you haven't sounded at all mean spirited to me in your posts. You just sound like someone who is hurting.
Thanks. I don't want to sound mean. I am hurting. kgg, which ones were mean spirited?
Sometimes it isn't about changing, isn't about hardwork. Sometimes it is simply that two people are no longer compatible, are no longer good for each other. It's entirely possible that the things your wife says she can't deal with (like you being hurtful, or not being emotionally honest) are merely manifestations of that lack of compatibility. It's equally possible (indeed probable) that the same things that drew her to you now drive her from you.
wtf?
What may have seemed like strength and self sufficiency when she was in love, may seem like a lack of openness now. What may have seemed like passion and fire, may now seem like frightening anger.
The things that first attract us are often the things that later repel us.
I don't mean to be disrespectful, or dense, but I really don't understand what you're going on about? I get the words, but... :shakes head: I don't understand the changes stuff you described. Are you willing to try to explain it again?
You seem to believe this is your fault Deuce. You seem to have taken on all the responsibility for making this situation: like it's all because you can't express yourself or let her in, or are too angry and explosive. More likely, but more painful as it's fundamentally unfixable, is that the person she is now is not in love with the person you are now. That doesn't mean the peson you are is wrong.
shit.
I know I bear some responsibility for where we're at. Not all. My share. And whatever will become of us, will depend on how much I put into this change. Not all. My share. But if I put in as much as I can, I know I will have done my best, and that's all my Dad ever asked of me.
You could be right. Or at least partly right. I believe you are at least partly right.
[SIZE="1"][COLOR="Red"]Tell ya another little secret. I ain't buying the "unfixable" concept. There's a galactic gulf between can't and won't.[/COLOR][/SIZE]
Fess up meaning tell us that you call her. Is she really the one doing all the calling? If not, than lay off on that just a bit. That's all. Be truthful and honest. That's all. I'm glad you like some of the things I say.
Which brings me to me next point: she doesn't want it to work. A restraining order is a pretty clear indication that she either (1) fears you and is removing you from her life, or (2) she's playing some kind of sick game because she wants it all on her terms, and do you really want any of that crazy-bitch action?
That's a fact jack!
You say you love your wife, but do you respect her?
Yes.
Do you require further support for my answer?
She has clearly stated what she wants (and doesn't want), but are you accepting that?
She has said many things clearly not all of them the same. I am trying to listen and understand with my heart, as well as my head. The mixed messages are real. We all do it from time to time to some degree. So my acceptance, it's necessarily mixed too. The situation becomes even more complicated when *my* desires are incorporated into the mix.
She is not half of you...she is her own person, with her own feelings, needs, desires, and choices to make. Love allows the other person to be free to go their own way, even if it hurts like all hell and honors their stated wishes, even if it rips your own heart out.
Yes, I know. I agree. I have never obstructed or assisted her in the process of the divorce, all the times it has come up. I can not keep her. I don't want to keep her. I want to be near her because she wants to be near me. I want mutual affinity and affection. Not possession. Not a pet.
And I'm prepared to have my heart ripped out. I won't like it, but I will endure it.
Self-esteem draws the line at continuing to give one's all when that is becoming destructive to one's wellbeing. When you feel like you cannot live without her, then you have possibly become overinvested in her and unhealthily enmeshed. Often, when that happens, the person who has done so becomes controlling and obsessive over their partner (although I do not know if that is true in your marriage).
You may be on to something here, but I may not be in the best position to verify it. I am heavily invested in her. But I am most definitely my own person. The roles I fill describe me, but they are not me, just as no map is the terrain.
If someone really loves, honors and respects another, they will not continue to argue a point clearly stated, call against their wishes, write them, and/or invade their world without an express invitation.
If your wife went to the trouble to get an RO, then she obviously has issues with your form of contact with her. Is it not possible to step back and allow her the space that she apparently so desparately desires?
Another good observation.
It certainly is possible and respectful to permit that space she's seeking. But to clarify, she wanted security, not space, as defined in the restraining order. If you go back and read some of the earlier posts, there were many calls from her while I was still reeling from the shock of the RO. This is an example of the mixed messages I've described. Space. Ok. Security. Ok. Contact. Ok. She's calling the shots, not me.
Your relationship with your son is completely separate from the one with your wife. It is the one that you can affect at this point. Why not concentrate your energies on strengthening that relationship and doing what is necessary to preserve your spot in his life (visitation, contact arrangements, etc.)?
Another good point. Not quite a bullseye, though. There is no way to completely separate my relationship with my son from my relationship with my wife. Really. I can compartmentalize the two if necessary, but they overlap, they're not disjoint. You may rest assured that I will build the best strongest relationship possible with our son that I can manage, regardless of my relationship with my wife.
I do not believe that the greatest gift you can give your son is to love his mother, I believe the greatest gift you can give your son is to love him. Period. A steadfast, solid love that never waivers and is not dependant upon your relationship with his mother is much more important to a child than anything else. In fact, parent's relationships with each other should be kept totally OUT of their relationship with their children. Kids need to know that their mother and father love them even if/when the marriage breaks up and that they are not involved in that whatsoever.
I respectfully disagree. I have spoken at length elsewhere describing my thoughts on this aspect, and I will not repeat them here, since you've obviously read them and brought my own quote into your remarks. Our ideas overlap, but we do not share the same focus.
Get an attorney, make unshakeable visitation arrangements and let time heal the wounds. When emotions have cooled down and the shock has worn off, there will be plenty of time to analyse, dissect and discuss what happened. Sometimes there is no understanding possible, one must simply accept the situation and make the best of it.
Time and space will usually bring clarity.
You're right again. Thank you for your care and your effort to talk to me. I appreciate it.
Fess up meaning tell us that you call her. Is she really the one doing all the calling? If not, than lay off on that just a bit. That's all. Be truthful and honest. That's all. I'm glad you like some of the things I say.
Um, ok. Yes, I have called her over the course of this process, a number of times. There are at least three or four posts that talk about our conversations, some of which I initiated over the phone.
(lay off on that? wtf?)
Man, I am truthful and honest. Have I given you any reason to believe otherwise?
And while we're at it, which of my posts were mean spirited?
And
Has anything Deuce said given you even the slightest indication that she wants to work through anything in a friendly manner?
What's your answer to this question too? Come on, fess up. :)
I don't mean to be disrespectful, or dense, but I really don't understand what you're going on about? I get the words, but... :shakes head: I don't understand the changes stuff you described. Are you willing to try to explain it again?
OKay. When my ex and I first met, some of the things I loved about him were: his intensity, his passion, his mercurial changeability, his laugh, the fact that he didn't care what other people thought, his laugh.
When I fell out of love with him, when the relationship was on the rocks and we were still living together, some of the things that drove me mad about him were: his intensity, his temper (note, this no longer looked like passion to me), his unpredictability, his inability to tailor his actions/attitude to the company we were in, thereby embarrassing the fuck out of me on a regular basis, his laugh.
At the same time, J, was beginning to be annoyed by things he used to like in me.
He had not changed utterly. He had grown-up a little and so had I, and the things that had been the basis of much of my attraction to him, after 12 years had become the things that most annoyed me and vice versa.
Talking to my friend D a few days ago about his divorce, he said "The things that first attract us, later repel: she hates me, man. She hates everything about me. The way I walk, the way I laugh, my sense of humour, my mannerisms. All the stuff that she used to like."
Now, I am not suggesting that she hates you. D's divorce was a fairly extreme case (my own opinion is his ex-wife's a full blown mentalist, but that's just my opinion and as his friend I am biased), but it illustrates a common phenomenon. My ex and I, by the way, are very good friends and I love him dearly. My other friend is now with him and deeply in love...many of the same things I found attractive in J, she is now drawn to 17 years later. I didn't fall out of love because I didn't like those character traits and mannerisms: I fell out of love
therefore I no longer liked those traits and mannerisms.
I think my point is, that just because she tells you the things that drive her mad (e.g the lack of emotional honesty/communication I think you mentioned at one stage) are the problem...they may not be. The problem from her perspective may not be those things, they may just be a manifestation of a change in the state of her feelings for you. If that's the case, then 'fixing' those things in yourself would not provide a solution.
You'e the only one here that really knows the situation Deuce. All I can do is read what you post, apply it to my own experience of the world and offer advice and insights if I feel I am able. Your situation may not fit that experience of the world, or it may. You're the only one who knows.
He is not allowed to see her whether she allowed it or not. Don't you guys get that? The State is not allowing it for both parties. The State enforces these orders for a reason. It is as black and white as it sounds. She is violating her own restraining order and can get in trouble with the state as well. He needs proof that she has violated the restraining order so when she uses his contact as a negotiating point he has some self-protection. He needs to tell his attorney about her contact.
They do hand out restrainig orders willy-nilly. I've seen it. I saw a report that said the guy was "escalating" during an arguement. Yes escalating can get you a restraining order. He just found out that she had been having an affair for quite some time. I would "escalate" too. The report was empty outside of escalating. I'm escalating right now.
My point is....either you are a threat or you're not. You can't have it both ways because the state is in charge of the restraining order. Not you or your wife. Ask your attorney. You both are in violation. Now you both can get in trouble. If she is caught- the first thing she is going to do is blame it on you.
Follow the advice of your attorney.
Just follow his/her advice for now and you guys can hash things out later. You are at great risk.
I have tons of compassion for your situation, but be patient and live out the order or you could possibly see the inside of a cell and not get to see or talk to anybody except for your bunk-mate.
Two, at least, I hope. I hope you're thinking of you, too.
[hug]
Hey I'm thinking of you too! Actually that's not quite true. I was thinking of you a couple of days ago and wondering how you were getting on (which was quite bad because I was sitting on Scrutiny Committee at the time) and that led me to thinking about my parents' divorce some twenty two years ago, and in particular wondering what my Dad was feeling at the time and whether or not I gave enough attention to where he was at back then...so actually, it would be more proper for me to say I was thinking of me :P
I hope you're feeling okay (as okay as is possible in the circumstances) and I want to offer you advice from the perspective of the child of divorcing parents.
It is important that you show your children that you're still the same Dad, regardless of whether you share a house or are married to their mother. That's already been talked about in this thread and I know you are doing exactly that. What may be less obvious (unless it is obvious to others, I don't know) is the important balancing act that you need to achieve between making sure they know you love them deeply, and making sure they know that you can cope without living as a family unit.
I have very few memories of the day we actually left. Mum and Dad had been living in the same house but more or less totally estranged having begun the separation proceedings (you had to separate for one year before you could apply for divorce back then) almost a year earlier. Things were tense but 'civilised' and in many ways they did it textbook (my brother and I involved in the discussions of custody and basically given the choice, very careful to ensure we didn't blame oursellves etc). The key memory for me was when Dad brought me a cup of tea whilst I was standing in my room packing my bag. We said nothing about what was going on, it was like nothing was happening. As he went down the stairs he stopped for a moment and looked up through the bannister and the open doorway and then continued on his way. Up til then I had felt this strange mix of excitement (moving house is exciting, change is exciting when you are 12) and sorrow. But when I looked at dad I saw absolute understanding of what was happening and a deal of pain. All of a sudden the reality of what was happening struck me...we were leaving him behind.
The moment passed, we all got through it and though Dad has never been one for sharing his emotions (or indeed showing it in ways people who don't know him might recognise:P) he never left me in any doubt that he was still my dad and loved me. But...and this is why the long tale, that feeling of having left him behind, never quite shook away. It's still there and I am now 35.
A lot of that is due to the way my dad is. But much of it is due to the fact that Dad didn't seem(to me when I was 13)like he would be able to be happy at some future point.
Hence the balancing act. It's a toughie...don't try to hide your pain totally, it just looks like hidden depths of pain and they'll be able to imagine worse than you can feel. At the same time, don't overwhelm them with that pain...they need to be able to feel that at some point their dad may be happy, that them and their mum leaving the house isn't leaving you behind in a dark and unhappy place from which you can't escape. Like I say, it's a balancing act. Make sure they know you love them, but that them moving out isn't something that will sink you. Don't try and pretend that you are happy or that everything is normal, because if they're older kids especially, they'll feel you're shutting them out (imo) but make sure they understand that this is because of the stressful situation and upsetting nature of such a life change, and that as the situation moves on, you'll all be moving with it and life will eventualy reach aneven keel and nobody will be left behind. This isn't stuff you can tell them, it's what they need to experience from you.
Don't know if that's helpful, interesting, useless or upsetting. I hope not the latter two :)
everything has been ground away. ever see a machine seize up? the parts that rub against one another, for lack of lubrication, or cooling, or clearance, or bearings, or some such.... those surfaces in the absence of any help, heat up. they deform, they change so that the normal function is gone.
all the places where we touch are seized up. the normal flow of lubrication has been stopped; there is no compassion, no benefit of the doubt, no love. the normal methods of cooling are gone; there is no space, no relief. the normal things that act as bearings are missing; there is no human touch, no intimacy, no sharing.
it is all shrieking screeching sparking mess, dangerously incandescent. an expensive non functional wreck.
sad because the redline was cruelly and deliberately ignored. all the warning signs disregarded. purposefully broken.
goddammit.
It will probably seem lame of me to chime in here with "Hang in there, Deuce, it will get better", but it will. I sincerely wish you the strength to get through these bad times to the better ones ahead.
Deuce, I'd like to suggest giving this book some time.
Life After Loss: A Practical Guide to Renewing Your Life After Experiencing Major Loss
by Bob Deits
The semester after my father died I took a death and dying class in college. This was one of the required textbooks. It's about grief, (from different sources, such as loss of a parent to loss of a job, including divorce) and working through it. Mine is actually an older edition. I'm sure not much has changed in the new one, except for updating of resources. There are probably divorce specific books out there, but I don't have any experience with those. Maybe someone else has?
I know you are feeling very alone, when you are up to it try to find some grief groups, or divorce groups where you can talk to people. Taking the class helped me immensely, when there was no one else I knew who was going through what I was to talk to.
clever.
mean though.
I'm not mean. I'm not in the desert. And I'm not alone. We're bound together, by marriage and by children. My wife, mother of my children, is not a bitch. I care about her, I love her. My heart is broken, and probably my brain too. But there's no reason, certainly nothing to be gained, by being cruel and mean. You're wrong.
It's happening. Time is slowing down, I can see where we're headed and I feel powerless to change the inevitable result: a terrible crash, horrible carnage. Years in the making, my self delusion finally all ground away.
Apparently, it's not
all ground away.
The pain of being unloved now exceeds the numbing and dumbing power of denial. I cannot decide which I miss more, being loved by others or being deluded by myself. Probably delusion, since that pain is fresher by far; I can't remember the feeling of being loved.
The one that loves the least, is always in control. It's not you.