Terror Plot 'One Of The Most Chilling Imaginable'

Think the Patriot Act helped them catch these guys in anyway? I do.

http://www.wnbc.com/news/13431721/detail.html?dl=mainclick

This may be the same guys that were bragging that they were going to execute an attack even worse than 9/11 but I doubt it.

Oh, yeah, I heard about this... "One of the most chilling imaginable", riiight.

I guess you didn't hear the part about them needing a great deal of plastic explosive to blow the tanks - and only having a bit of dynamite.

Or the part about the fuel tanks not actually being capable of creating a chain reaction. Or, for that matter, their absolute lack of ability to do absolutely anything?


Just a couple of crazy idiots who wish they could hit back at "the man". The rest is overhyped politicized bullshit.

Ibram;350315 wrote:

Oh, yeah, I heard about this... "One of the most chilling imaginable", riiight.

I guess you didn't hear the part about them needing a great deal of plastic explosive to blow the tanks - and only having a bit of dynamite.

Or the part about the fuel tanks not actually being capable of creating a chain reaction. Or, for that matter, their absolute lack of ability to do absolutely anything?


Just a couple of crazy idiots who wish they could hit back at "the man". The rest is overhyped politicized bullshit.

Ignorant response at best...

TheMercenary;350319 wrote:

Ignorant response at best...

Oh great enlightened one, please help an ignorant teeen, pardon my idiocy!

...How the hell is knowing the facts and making a reasonable if cynical judgment of the reality of the situation more ignorant than repeating sensationalist headlines?
Don't call my analysis 'ignorant' without at least enlightening us as to how it's ignorant or, for that matter, posting any analysis of your own.

Ibram;350320 wrote:

Oh great enlightened one, please help an ignorant teeen, pardon my idiocy!

To late. There is no help for you. Only years of failure ahead due to your ignorant approach to life. I certainly can't tell you anything, remember I am older than you, and your years of experience have provided you with all the answers you need to figure things out. Go forth do good deeds. Fall on your face. You may learn someday.

Ibram;350320 wrote:

Don't call my analysis 'ignorant' without at least enlightening us as to how it's ignorant or, for that matter, posting any analysis of your own.

I have absolutely no responsibility to enlighten you about anything, nor do I need to put out an analysis of something that is only hours old. I merely put it out for discussion.

So in other words, you have absolutely nothing at all to say on the subject except that I'm wrong just 'cause I said it?

Ibram;350325 wrote:

So in other words, you have absolutely nothing at all to say on the subject except that I'm wrong just 'cause I said it?

In your case, absoutely. For most of the others on here, absolutely not. Pierce and Duck, among others, put you to shame.

Look, he even admits he's so prejudiced that I'm automatically wrong just because it's me that said it!

So, merc, which minority that I'm in makes me automatically wrong? It it cause I'm queer? Cause I don't have 48 years of sitting on my ass like you? Cause I'm underweight? What about my hair colour, are you an anti-dirty-blonde-ite?

At least you're honest about your shameless prejudice.

Ibram;350329 wrote:

At least you're honest about your shameless prejudice.

Ok, the world is all about you.

Uh, what? That didn't even make sense.

You post an article and say nothing else about it.
I give my opinion on the article, dismissing it as sensationalism.
You tell me I'm wrong, without actually saying why.
I ask why you think I'm wrong.
You say, because it's me.
I take this as proof of your prejudice and call you on it.

When did I ever say anything revolved around me?
You post an article, I respond to it, you dismiss my response on the grounds that it's me, I call you on it.
Quit while you're ahea -- er, while you aren't so far behind, save us all the trouble.

Ibram;350336 wrote:

I give my opinion on the article, dismissing it as sensationalism.
You tell me I'm wrong, without actually saying why.
I ask why you think I'm wrong.
You say, because it's me..

No, I said it was based on your own ignorance.

When did I ever say anything revolved around me?

When you said this:

Look, he even admits he's so prejudiced that I'm automatically wrong just because it's me that said it!... I'm... me... bla, bla, bla. Bla, bla, bla....

Right, you said I was wrong just because I said it, so I called you on it. You're the one that made this about me. I posted my analysis of, my opinion on, the matter, and you told me that I was wrong just because it was me that said it.

You have absolutely nothing on the side of your argument except your own biases, bigotry, and prejudice. You dont even have a point, besides the assertion that I'm always, automatically, wrong. You are a troll.

Ibram;350340 wrote:

Right, you said I was wrong just because I said it, so I called you on it. You're the one that made this about me. I posted my analysis of, my opinion on, the matter, and you told me that I was wrong just because it was me that said it.

Me, me, me, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...:rolleyes:

You have absolutely nothing on the side of your argument except your own biases, bigotry, and prejudice. You dont even have a point, besides the assertion that I'm always, automatically, wrong. You are a troll.

Yes, that is correct, it always will be so... :D

"attack, attack, attack"... waaaaaaaaaaaaaa! someone call UT, he is following me... waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!:eek: :whofart: :p

I give up, you are absolutely nothing but a troll. You have yet to put together a single coherent argument, or even make a single point, without attacking someone.

Does this count as thread number two?

Ibram;350342 wrote:

bla, bla, bla, bla.... bla, bla, bla...Does this count as thread number two?

You are quite whiney today. Why do you continually "attack, attack, attack" and insult with your own biases, bigotry, and prejudice? Just curious?

Show me a single instance of me being bigoted. Show me one place where I prejudged anyone. Show me a single attack I've made against anyone - self defense is not an attack. At least I'm mature enough to not only respond rationally and calmly to your attacks, and not result to schoolyard 'blah blah blah' mimicry and foolishness.
Please, merc. For your own sake, if no-one else's. Just... stop.

Get a room, guys.:right:

I just think it's interesting how the "plots" have increased greatly since 911, and Bush's ensuing idiocy.

Spexxvet;350359 wrote:

I just think it's interesting how the "plots" have increased greatly since 911, and Bush's ensuing idiocy.

I think he threw gas on the fire, but he planning for the 9/11 attacks took place many years before Bush got to office. I think it is interesting how we have been so obsessed with "Bush's ensuing idiocy" as a nation, that we have ignored historical facts.

richlevy;350358 wrote:

Get a room, guys.:right:

pass.:rolleyes:

TheMercenary;350361 wrote:

I think he threw gas on the fire, but he planning for the 9/11 attacks took place many years before Bush got to office. I think it is interesting how we have been so obsessed with "Bush's ensuing idiocy" as a nation, that we have ignored historical facts.

A plot either works, or is foiled, right. Other than the first WTC attack, what other attacks on US soil worked, or were foiled?

Spexxvet;350366 wrote:

A plot either works, or is foiled, right. Other than the first WTC attack, what other attacks on US soil worked, or were foiled?

I am sure more were foiled than were published. Bottom line is that plans to attack more significant US targest were hatched long before Bush was in office, either targets in the US or outside the US.

Thwarted

1. West Coast airliner plot:

In 2002 the United States disrupted a plot to use shoe bombs to hijack a commercial airliner to attack the tallest building in Los Angeles. The plot was "set in motion" by Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the alleged mastermind of the September 11 attacks.

"Rather than use Arab hijackers, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed sought out young men from Southeast Asia whom he believed would not arouse as much suspicion," Bush said.

2. East Coast airliner plot:

In mid-2003 the United States and a partner disrupted a plot to use hijacked commercial airplanes to attack targets on the East Coast of the United States.

3. The Jose Padilla plot:

In May 2002 the United States disrupted a plot that involved blowing up apartment buildings in the United States. One of the alleged plotters, Jose Padilla, allegedly discussed the possibility of using a "dirty bomb" inside the United States. Bush has designated him an "enemy combatant."

4. 2004 British urban targets plot:

In mid-2004 the United States and partners disrupted a plot to bomb urban targets in Britain.

5. 2003 Karachi plot:

In spring 2003 the United States and a partner disrupted a plot to attack westerners at several targets in Karachi, Pakistan.

6. Heathrow Airport plot:

In 2003 the United States and several partners disrupted a plot to attack London's Heathrow Airport using hijacked commercial airliners. The planning for this alleged attack was undertaken by a major operational figure in the September 11, 2001, attacks.

7. 2004 Britain plot:

In the spring of 2004 the United States and partners, using a combination of law enforcement and intelligence resources, disrupted a plot to conduct large-scale bombings in Britain.

8. 2002 Persian Gulf shipping plot:

In late 2002 and 2003 the United States and a partner nation disrupted a plot by al Qaeda operatives to attack ships in the Persian Gulf.

9. 2002 Strait of Hormuz plot:

In 2002 the United States and partners disrupted a plot to attack ships in the Strait of Hormuz, the entrance to the Persian Gulf from the Indian Ocean.

10. 2003 tourist site plot:

In 2003 the United States and a partner nation disrupted a plot to attack a tourist site outside the United States. The White House did not list what site that was.

5 Casings and Infiltrations


1. The U.S. Government & Tourist Sites Tasking: In 2003 and 2004, an individual was tasked by al-Qa'ida to case important U.S. Government and tourist targets within the United States.
2. The Gas Station Tasking: In approximately 2003, an individual was tasked to collect targeting information on U.S. gas stations and their support mechanisms on behalf of a senior al-Qa'ida planner.
3. Iyman Faris & the Brooklyn Bridge: In 2003, and in conjunction with a partner nation, the U.S. government arrested and prosecuted Iyman Faris, who was exploring the destruction of the Brooklyn Bridge in New York. Faris ultimately pleaded guilty to providing material support to al-Qa'ida and is now in a federal correctional institution.
4. 2001 Tasking: In 2001, al-Qa'ida sent an individual to facilitate post-September 11 attacks in the U.S. U.S. law enforcement authorities arrested the individual.
5. 2003 Tasking: In 2003, an individual was tasked by an al-Qa'ida leader to conduct reconnaissance on populated areas in the U.S.

Pre-Bush sucessful attacks

1979
Nov. 4, Tehran, Iran: Iranian radical students seized the U.S. embassy, taking 66 hostages. 14 were later released. The remaining 52 were freed after 444 days on the day of President Reagan's inauguration.
1982–1991
Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.
1983
April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut.
Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait: Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.
1984
Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.
Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.
1985
April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.
June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed.
Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.
Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.
1986
April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.
April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.
1988
Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.
1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.
1995
April 19, Oklahoma City: car bomb exploded outside federal office building, collapsing wall and floors. 168 people were killed, including 19 children and 1 person who died in rescue effort. Over 220 buildings sustained damage. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols later convicted in the antigovernment plot to avenge the Branch Davidian standoff in Waco, Tex., exactly 2 years earlier. (See Miscellaneous Disasters.)
Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.
1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.
1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.
2000
Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.

Post 9/11 attacks:

2002
June 14, Karachi, Pakistan: bomb exploded outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda.
2003
May 12, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: suicide bombers killed 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners. Al-Qaeda suspected.
2004
May 29–31, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American.
June 11–19, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. 2 other Americans and BBC cameraman killed by gun attacks.
Dec. 6, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: terrorists storm the U.S. consulate, killing 5 consulate employees. 4 terrorists were killed by Saudi security.
2005
Nov. 9, Amman, Jordan: Suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility.
2006
Sept. 13, Damascus, Syria: an attack by four gunman on the American embassy was foiled.
2007
Jan. 12, Athens, Greece: the U.S. embassy was fired on by an anti-tank missile causing damage but no injuries.

Ibram is right. The article clearly indicates two things:

1. The Patriot Act (aka the Government's shameless overcompensation for its inability to do its job within the parameters of the Constitution) had abso-freaking-lutely nothing whatsoever to do with the apprehension of these conspirators; and

2. The plans weren't even in the planning stage.

Law enforcement officials said that Kennedy, which handles roughly 45 million passengers a year and 1,000 flights a day, was never in imminent danger because the plot was only in a preliminary phase and the conspirators had yet to lay out detailed plans or obtain financing or explosives.

The airport is fed jet fuel, gasoline and heating oil through a capillary system of pipes that run from New Jersey through Staten Island, Brooklyn and Queens. Oil industry experts said safety shut-off valves would almost assuredly have prevented an exploding airport fuel tank from igniting all or even part of the network.

But officials said the four men determined to carry out their attack, having conducted “precise and extensive” surveillance of the airport using photographs, video, the recollections of Mr. Defreitas and satellite images downloaded from Google Earth.

They said the men had also traveled repeatedly to Guyana and Trinidad in recent months, seeking the blessing and financial backing of an extremist Muslim group based in Trinidad and Tobago called Jamaat al-Muslimeen, which was behind a bloody coup attempt in Trinidad in 1990.

One law enforcement official played down Mr. Defreitas’s ability to carry out an attack, calling him “a sad sack” and “not a Grade A terrorist.” Comparing the case with the plot in which a group of men were arrested last month on charges of planning to attack soldiers at Fort Dix in New Jersey, the official said the New Jersey plotters “were a bit further along.”

An informant with a criminal history including drug trafficking and racketeering agreed to work with investigators on the case, in exchange for payments and a reduced sentence.

Emphasis mine.

Basically, what we have here, folks, is a whole lotta nothing trumped up to justify an unconstitutional infringement on our Constitutional rights by an incompetent government.

Beestie;350379 wrote:

snip~ Basically, what we have here, folks, is a whole lotta nothing trumped up to justify an unconstitutional infringement on our Constitutional rights by an incompetent government.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it as much ado about nothing. These clowns had done a lot of groundwork and reconnaissance. If they were successful in convincing Jamaat al-Muslimeen it could be done, with their money and contacts it could have become a class A threat, rapidly.

Point taken.

My hostility was directed primarily at the propaganda-level idea that the Patriot Act saved us yet again.

Yeah, I'll buy that. Our operatives have been out there doing their thing since forever. Whether the Patriot Act helped them in any significant way is dubious.

Beestie;350385 wrote:

Point taken.

My hostility was directed primarily at the propaganda-level idea that the Patriot Act saved us yet again.

It was not meant to be a "propaganda-level idea", it was a simple comment that I bet elements of the Act assisted us in catching these would be terrorists. Both you and the "teen" responded in similar manner, with emotional outburst due to your hatred of the Act and all things "Bush".

I was wondering which of The Cellar's wacko extremists would hype this NYC bombing plot. Just like a plot to bring down Chicago's Sears Tower - they had no explosive, they had no technical knowledge, then had no ability, but they just talked alot.

Let's see. They were going to bomb a 40 mile pipeline. Therefore wackos among us know this would be a fire in 40 miles of towns and cities. Hell. One of those Buckeye Partner pipelines are near me. Therefore I too can destroy America by simply causing the entire pipeline to explode end to end.

And then we deal with reality. The most destructive thing I might do is steal some petroleum. TheMercenary cannot even put that mythical attack into perspective.

Meanwhile TheMercenary forgets that conventional law enforcement before 11 September was more than sufficient to stop terrorist attacks that included a possible attack on New Years Eve Time Square, the Radisson Hotel in Jordan, tourists in Egypt, and LAX in California. Why? Because we once had an intelligent president.

Why do we need Patriot Acts? Because wacko extremists in the White House are so incompetent as to even make 11 September possible – and then blame it on Saddam.

Because he promotes hate using his political agenda, TheMercenary even denies George Jr administration stifled investigations that could have stopped 11 September. FBI agents in AZ, MN, IL, and NY were stopped from investigating what we know call 11 September ... by the George Jr administration. We also know they stifled and drove from government service this nation's number one anti-terrorist investigator. John O'Neill died where he knew attacks would be coming - WTC.

TheMercenary must deny this reality to promote his wacko political agenda – a fear of fools who could only talk about terrorism. Why is their talk hyped as if the world is going to end? Look at the George Jr popularity polls. They can no long create Orange Alerts to increase popularity. All those Orange alerts were also based in myths.

Why did John O'Neill take a job where he knew attacks were coming? That's irrelevant. Why did an extremist administration who insisted we were still in a Cold War then stifle John O'Neills investigations? Why do wackos like TheMercenary deny George Jr's administration stifled all those investigations - then must to subvert freedom to 'fight terror’?

When do we go after bin Laden? As long as bin Laden runs free, then wackos like TheMercenary can hype fear from simple fools who make the Keystone Cops look competent.

Let's see. Some pizza shop workers and friends talk about attacking Fort Dix. Suddenly the world was on the verge of ending? Or these extremist had the same competence as Richard Reed who could not give himself a hot foot.

Fortunately for terrorists, we have George Jr as a leader and TheMercenary promoting for that mental midget. Those attacks on JFK did not even have the competence of Richard Reed. But those among us who cannot put the world into perspective now see Al Qaeda hiding everywhere. Who promotes such ridiculous fears? TheMercenary - another extremist.

Extremists need extremists. When did TheMercenary ever call for the capture of bin Laden? He never did. As long as bin Laden runs free, then TheMercenary's political agenda can be promoted. No wonder George Jr suspended Alec Station. Alec Station had only one purpose - get bin Laden. But extremists need extremists to promote their political agendas. Therefore George Jr had that operation terminated.

Notice TheMercenary does not complain. As long as bin Laden runs free, then TheMercenary can promote his political agenda. Notice that TheMercenary does not complain when Alec Station was disbanded. TheMercenary need extremists like bin Laden and fools who would bomb the Sear Tower or attack Ft Dix. It justifies the fear that TheMercenary promotes.

Only a wacko extremist believes those JFK ‘attackers’ were anything but one step above fools. Only wacko extremists would hype those JFK ‘attackers’ to promote fear. Only wacko extremists also blames Saddam for 11 September. Wacko extremists such as George Jr and TheMercenary need bin Laden running free. No wonder 10th Mountain was never permitted to go after bin Laden.

TheMercenary;350397 wrote:

It was not meant to be a "propaganda-level idea", it was a simple comment that I bet elements of the Act assisted us in catching these would be terrorists. Both you and the "teen" responded in similar manner, with emotional outburst due to your hatred of the Act and all things "Bush".

I fail to see any irrelevant emotion in my reply. It's a bunch of crazies sitting around in a basement saying "man... I wish we had like, bombs or something, and like, a way to blow up those tanks, man!" The plot was doomed from the start. The tanks could not possibly create a chain reaction, and they really probably couldnt even blow one tank, anyway.

Fuel tanks have exploded before, all on their own. It's not fun, but its not "One of the most chilling [plots] imaginable". The rest really is just overhyped fearmongering idiotic bullshit.

tw;350428 wrote:

1. TheMercenary 2. TheMercenary 3. TheMercenary 4. TheMercenary 5. TheMercenary 6. TheMercenary 7. TheMercenary 8. The Mercenary 9. TheMercenary 10. TheMercenary's11. TheMercenary 12. TheMercenary 13.TheMercenary 14. TheMercenary15. The Mercenary

Pssst... tw. It ain't about me. It is about attempts to thwart attacks on the US. They did that. Good plans or bad plans.

TheMercenary;350397 wrote:

Both you and the "teen" responded in similar manner, with emotional outburst due to your hatred of the Act and all things "Bush".

Bullshit. Ibram and I drew our conclusions from the New York Times article that you linked. I referenced the Patriot Act because you brought it up in your initial post which is itself interesting since it had nothing whatsoever to do with this story.

You are right about my attitude about the Patriot Act. But I don't hate Bush. He's giving us his best effort. Unfortunately for us, however, his best effort sucks.

Not Bullshit. I watched Assistant FBI Director be interviewed today (a repeat of a broadcast from Wed) by two reporters in a moderated interview. In fact the elements of The Patriot Act were utilized in nearly every investigation of attempted terror acts on the US since it was inacted. Time will tell. It is still early.

Informant Plays Key Role in JFK Plot

A convicted drug dealer who agreed to pose as a wannabe terrorist among a shadowy group now accused of plotting to blow up John F. Kennedy International Airport secretly fed information to federal investigators in exchange for a lighter sentence.

His surveillance trips to the airport with the suspects, travels abroad to meet with supporters and assurances he wanted to die as a martyr in an attack on an underground jet fuel pipeline gave counterterrorism agents insight and evidence that experts say was otherwise unattainable.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=3240492

See? Not patriot act after all - just the same kind of good ol' fashioned police work thats served us pretty good up till now.

This story only made the news for about 1 day over here.

If there were really anything substantial in it, I think we'd be hearing a lot more about it.

Ibram;350564 wrote:

See? Not patriot act after all - just the same kind of good ol' fashioned police work thats served us pretty good up till now.

Exactly. Its not like we were defenseless lambs curled up in the fetal position for the 230+ years prior to the Patriot Act.

There isn't a police commissioner in America that would prefer not to have to secure a warrant prior to conducting a search or who wouldn't prefer holding a suspect for months and years without legal representation or without filing any charges against him.

This is America not Spain during the Holy Inquisition. At least to everyone outside the beltway.

A lot of this "police work" went on in South America.

And still has nothing to do with the Patriot act. We've been legally spying on terror suspects for a long time before the Patriot act....

The very last thing I would expect to hear from law enforcement or a spy agency is: "Well, we paid off some international arms dealers with federal tax dollars and they sang like canaries so no, Mister Reporter, the Patriot Act was not instrumental in preventing the terrorist act."

No, they are going to tie it in to everything so they don't lose it. That's my problem with it. There is no check on its power. No one in government doesn't benefit from it so the only opponents are those "who obviously have something to hide."

I would phrase the question this way: "What have you (Homeland Security) accomplished that, absent the Patriot Act, could not have been accomplished? With an honest answer, I, we, us Citizens against whom this new power is used, can make an informed decision as to whether or not we are ok with it. But who in law enforcement is going to give me a straight answer to that question? No Bod EE

Maybe this whole government out of control thing bothers me more than most but there is only so much power to go around. Whatever the gubmint has is exactly what we let them have. The irony is that once that power is relinquished, you'll never see it again. And so 9/11 and the government's failure to prevent it become the reason for the transfer of power from the Citizens to the Government. They reward themselves for their failures. And we pay the bill. Forever.

Mr. Defreitas envisioned “the destruction of the whole of Kennedy” and theorized that because of underground pipes, “part of Queens would explode.”

Because he doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.

"The devastation that would be caused had this plot succeeded is just unthinkable," said U.S. Attorney Roslynn R. Mauskopf, calling it "one of the most chilling plots imaginable."

Because she doesn't know her ass from a hole in the ground.

Oil industry experts said safety shut-off valves would almost assuredly have prevented an exploding airport fuel tank from igniting all or even part of the network.

Almost? What the fuck do you mean, almost?

Mr. Defreitas pointed out fuel tanks on airport property, nearby gas stations, possible sites of lax security as well as possible escape routes, the authorities said.

Escape routes? You don't get 72 virgins for escape routes, ya pussy.

Hardly a threat to western civilization, but it's good that they stopped these asshats from recruiting people that actually could do something.

xoxoxoBruce;350649 wrote:

Hardly a threat to western civilization, but it's good that they stopped these asshats from recruiting people that actually could do something.

This really is the bottom line here, I really do not work for NBC and did not write the headline, really I had nothing to do with that bit:rolleyes: . It is good to know there are people out there watching these scumbags and doing all they can to find out what they are up to.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/06/04/wjfk04.xml

The alleged conspiracy to blow up John F Kennedy airport, in New York, and a recent plot to kill soldiers at a nearby United States Army base represent only the "tip of the iceberg" of terrorist plots against America, according to US officials.

piercehawkeye45 wrote:

This may be the same guys that were bragging that they were going to execute an attack even worse than 9/11 but I doubt it.

That means these guys are still out there. They said that they attack the US unless it pulls out of all Arab countries, which is not happening.

I am going to call a bluff on the worse than 9/11 (hopefully) part because that would be insanely hard and you would need to be a near genius to get it too work. Saying that you are going to do it beforehand won't help your cause and is most likely a popularity stunt (hopefully).

How would you determine worse than 9-11? More bodies? More infrastructure damaged? More costly in economy disruption? Bet I could top 2 out of 3 with a dirty bomb. Maybe with gas.

Undertoad;350690 wrote:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/06/04/wjfk04.xml

It also says

The FBI announced at the weekend that they had foiled a plan to blow up a 40-mile fuel pipeline to JFK airport, which handles a thousand flights a day.

That's not what the American papers said.

xoxoxoBruce;350701 wrote:

How would you determine worse than 9-11? More bodies? More infrastructure damaged? More costly in economy disruption? Bet I could top 2 out of 3 with a dirty bomb. Maybe with gas.

9/11 was complicated because it was a physical attack along with a symbolic attack.

Not only did it kill people, it installed fear of being able to hijack 4 airplanes, something most people have been on, and being able to crash them into symbolic structures.

A dirty bomb could cause more damage but it would never had the meaning of 9/11 with not only attacking civilians, but attacking and installing fear by using a method that is much deeper than "wrong place at the wrong time". That borders along with economic disruption too.

I can not prove it, but I would think that the reaction against 9/11 would be less if they just bombed the WTC and other buildings.


If they are going to plan something that is worse than 9/11 I am sure they are talking about the first two and not the third and symbolic meaning of it.

piercehawkeye45;350844 wrote:

9/11 was complicated because it was a physical attack along with a symbolic attack.

Not only did it kill people, it installed fear of being able to hijack 4 airplanes, something most people have been on, and being able to crash them into symbolic structures.

I don't completely agree. I find the logic in the event more compelling. If 11 September was so tragic for reasons provided, then the 1993 WTC attack should have also been just as tragic. After all, had that attack succeeded, then one tower would have toppled upon the other with something like 40,000 people inside. 11 September did not even intend to be so destructive.

Reasons for success are so similar to how destructive a bullet might be. The bullet itself fired into an elephant did almost no damage. But the elephant fell down upon many people. The real damage was not the attack. The damage was its unintended after-effects.

Remember two planes into the WTC were never intended to bring down either building. It was only intended to kill a few hundred. But both planes took out fire protection systems. No water meant carpet, furniture, and paper brought down both towers. The unintended clogging of stairwells with sheet rock meant almost 3000 people who had plenty of time to escape, instead, died.

The attack even closed all NY financial markets and caused every fire department for 100 miles to become involved. None of that was expected. The terrorists just got lucky. It is their luck that causes 11 September to become a 'smoking gun' akin to Pearl Harbor. In Pearl Harbor, good planning made the attack work and bad luck did not make it as successful as anticipated. But the resulting after-effects were same because both events created a 'smoking gun' with about same number of casualties and a sudden appreciation that a danger existed.

Curiously, even Hilter’s generals did not approve of Pearl Harbor. Even nations not so friendly to the US in 2001 suddenly wanted to be helpful. More indications of how significant each event was as a ‘smoking gun’. Yes, both event did also inspire the more emotional to become fearful or angry. But emotions are fleeting. It is the logic in both 'smoking gun' events that make them so significant. The resulting emotion was simply frosting on that cake.

Oh, Ibbie, Ibbie, Ibbie...

Look, we're just waiting until you're twenty-five. You really need those eight years, and need to be pretty busy during them -- honest.

These years won't be boring.

We have TheMercenary to demonstrate how a political extremist automatically knows by ignoring reality or waiting for reality.

TheMercenary;350306 wrote:

Think the Patriot Act helped them catch these guys in anyway? I do.

And then facts and reality arrive devoid of a political agenda. From ABC News of 4 Jun 2007:

Surveillance Video of Accused JFK Plotter
Law enforcement officials speaking Sunday added the informant kept them fully informed from virtually the start of the plot. They say the informant, described as a convicted drug dealer, was so deeply involved in the plot he was able to keep the authorities informed of every move Defreitas and his cohorts made.

So what is more important in stopping terrorism? Violating American legal principles (wiretapping, torture, kidnapping) for the greater glory of Fatherland Security? Or having people who don't hate America due to its government? Those two possibilities are mutually exclusive.

We also know why FBI investigations in AZ MN IL and NY into what is now called 11 September were instead quashed. In each case, right wing extremist administration officials stopped those investigations. In the IL case, both FBI agents were yelled at: "You will not open a criminal investigation." Both agents retired before telling their story. When wacko extremist government officials have a reputation of taking revenge for telling the truth (ie Abm Wilson), one can understand why those agents waited.

Meanwhile, TheMercenary automatically knew that a plot on a JFK pipeline was clearly thwarted by a Patriot Act power. His political agenda told him so. He knew and could not bother to first learn facts? That the difference between Americans located high on that political rope verses extremists who reside on that rope's bottom flaying edges.

The Mercenary has become as extremist as to demonstrate routine how George Jr supporters think. Bottom of a political rope is where those who use their feelings and a political agenda also know that torture is also good - in the glory of a right wing extremist god?

Nobody expected the Spanish Inquisition either. So how did we get George Jr and his wacko extremist supporters? There is no way but to be blunt honest when talking about why wacko extremists also created "Mission Accomplished". So how many American soldiers have died today – a number that will only increase do to those who *know* just like TheMercenary.

Is this post based in emotion? Not for one minute. It makes the same hard fact message I have posting here even in 2002. This post is dripping with hard logical contempt for dumb people who always know using their political agenda - "reality be damned". Hard logic contempt for those who have even harmed the American soldier.

TheMercenary is invited to stop posting based in wacko extremist rhetoric. He (et al) is invited to first learn reality before posting.

When do we go after bin Laden? Now that is a simple question that any reformed or recovering right wing wacko extremist should be asking. Notice not one extremist has even dared to touch that question. Why do only American patriots ask that question? Suddenly we know immediately from TheMercenary that the Patriot Act stopped terrorism by some guys who probably couldn’t even give themselves a hot foot.

I do enjoy picking on those with low intelligence only when they deserve it - by supporting George Jr and having so much contempt for America's soldiers. TheMercenary automatically knew the Patriot Act must have stopped JFK terrorism because he has a political agenda - reality be damned.

Aliantha;350569 wrote:

If there were really anything substantial in it, I think we'd be hearing a lot more about it.

Appreciate for the first 12 hours, all local news was hyping this story as if bin Laden had just been captured. You would be too far to appreciate administration hype of a mythical attack by Florida residents on the Sears Tower in Chicago. How terrorist were planning to blow up the Golden Gate Bridge. How the NY Stock Exchange was to be hit next. But this attack was hyped even more - especially by the local ABC "Action News" station.

Local broadcasting was flooding news snippets with "JFK to be attacked" and "most chilling imaginable". Remember, almost one third of Americans are so extremist as to still support George Jr. and to advocated more "war on terrorism". The rhetoric is still excessively profound via channels such as Rush Limbaugh, Pat Robertson, and TheMercenary. He is far from unusual. So many American still believe we should unilaterally attack Iran and N Korea because they are the axis of evil. They still say so publicly – but only in low tones. They still know that Guantanamo is still full of terrorist who should be tortured.

Ironically, America is little different from what is sometimes called the German mentality. When Zimbarto did his famous experiment where people were ordered to shock a ‘subject’ with hundreds of volts - even with the screaming - they would obey orders and crank up the voltage. Many Americans are no different from those who became Hitler's brown shirts. They know only from their political agenda – be it hate of Muslims or ‘niggers’. Hate by race, nationality, or religion – does not matter if that is the political agenda.

Demonstrated here is TheMercenary who always knows only because his political agenda tells him it is so. He is convinced that the Patriot Act - more power for Pres Cheney - stopped an attack on JFK. So much hype in those first 12 hours as demonstrated by TheMercenary’s first post in this thread. Local gossip was aggressively feeding those who still see Al Qaeda hiding everywhere just waiting to strike.

Tw, it appears, is in the grip of a belief Cheney is President, not Vice President. He can explain it, but his explanation will expose his error also, as surely as the sun shall rise tomorrow.

The anti-Republican fruitcakes have a persistent, and as persistently disproven, trope that all Republican Presidents must by definition be unintelligent.

Thing is, they do smarter stuff than the Democratic Presidents can gin up. They recover the economy, they win wars. History shows it.

Urbane Guerrilla;350931 wrote:

Tw, it appears, is in the grip of a belief Cheney is President, not Vice President.

What is technically true is not necessarily reality. George Jr only has the abilities to be a front man. Even Lee Iacocca (once a supporter of George Jr and now one of his strongest critics - I believe Lee used the word incompetent) believes Cheney makes the decisions.

While Cheney was in the Middle East trying to figure out what to do as the surge was not working, where was George Jr? Selectively visiting Latin American nations - to show face in hope to patch up strained relations. One makes decisions. The other is a figure head.

George Jr is not smart enough to make decisions. He did not even know the nations that border Israel. Those who use reality - not a political agenda - could see who really was president.

Brown shirts will believe anything they are told - including that George Jr is smart and makes decisions. Even Colin Powell made it obvious who makes the decisions. Even Sec of Treasury Paul O'Neill demonstrated George Jr's did not even read his memos. Cabinet meeting were really stage shows - decisions had already been made elsewhere.

When General Garner started to tell George Jr how bad things were becoming in Iraq, Garner suddenly realized that George Jr had been told nothing by Rumsfeld and Cheney. So he stopped. No sense telling a figurehead who has no idea what was happening what is happening. With Rumsfeld sitting right there, Garner and Rumsfeld then immediately knew what the other knew. Rumsfeld had been lying to Garner all along. George Jr had no idea what was happening in Iraq. Rumsfeld was working for Pres Cheney.

David Kay left a meeting with George Jr shocked at Bush's lack of inquisitiveness. Cheney and Libby later asked probing and challenging questions when not in the room with George Jr including possible Syrian connections, WMDs in the Bekka Valley, and details of raw NSA intercepts. Which one is the leader and which one is the front man?

Numerous examples – all well published - require Urbane Guerrilla to grasp reality - to ignore his political agenda. Urbane Guerrilla is not capable of grasping realities that contradict a political agenda. So UG actually believes George Jr makes decisions? Brown shirts believe what they are told; will even deny reality. Reality was long ago that Cheney has long been the president.

Cheney’s big complaint? The presidency does not have enough power.

As I said: your answer will expose your error.

Izat right?

Hey, tw hewed to type, sticking to the how-many-times-disproven story that Republican + President Is Supposed To Equal 76 IQ.

When will he learn he can't sell that one to me? I don't do anything with fertilizer. I don't live in that kind of house.

The Republican-haters frankly cannot see straight, and don't recognize the success of this Presidency. This is evidence of willful and collossal Stooooooooooooooooooooooooopiiiddddityyyyyyy, to give it the emphasis it should have, capital S and all.

And for the wilful ones, a short and irrefutable list: 13500 Dow Jones, 4.5% unemployment, no successful terr attacks on US soil since 9-11, Ghaddafi gave up WMD quite simply because of the Iraq campaign, Saddam dead, Taliban out.

But noooo... this isn't enough for the Republican-haters, those wannabe paragons of righteousness. So fuck you guys with a splintery shovel handle lubed up with Dave's After Death Sauce (tm). The Republicans work in the Republic's interest. What do you bleaters do?

tw;350894 wrote:

1) TheMercenary 2) TheMercenary 3) The Mercenary 4) TheMercenary 5) TheMercenary 6) TheMercenary

tw.... pssssssssssttttt. It ain't about me. :lol: :D :D :D :king:

Hold the phone tw - your lack-of-conspiracy theory weakens a little here:

Official Says JFK Terror Probe Widening

The investigation into the thwarted plot to bomb Kennedy International Airport is widening beyond the four men in custody, with more suspects sought outside the U.S. for their suspected roles, a law enforcement official said Friday.

The defendants identified last weekend were "just a piece of it," the official told The Associated Press on the condition of anonymity because of not being authorized to speak publicly. "We are definitely seeking more players. We are targeting others overseas."

...

According to court documents, the men sought the help of Jamaat al Muslimeen, or JAM, a group based in Trinidad that is known to be violent and involved in killings, kidnappings and weapons trafficking over the past two decades. The group staged a coup attempt in 1990, storming the Trinidad Parliament building and taking the prime minister hostage.

Some experts have called the plot far-fetched, saying it would have been virtually impossible to achieve the kind of destruction the suspects envisioned. But the official said that if the men had lined up with people who had the right resources, the plans could have been carried out in a short period of time.

heh.