You Go Boy, Drop That Pump
Maria McClory, 38, drove 10 miles out of her way to buy a diet soda from Pollack's station after seeing local television coverage of the protest.
"I just wanted to support them and thank them for making a statement," said McClory, who drives about 100 miles a day for work in her sport utility vehicle.
Schwartz called that [price] "outrageous" and said even he can't fill up his SUV at that price.
Boo hoo.
Schwartz called that "outrageous" and said even he can't fill up his SUV at that price.
"If it keeps going like this, my kids will never be able to afford to drive," said Schwartz, who has an 18-year-old son and 15-year-old daughter.
Poor Mr. Schwartz. He's got the pieces, but can't seem to put them together. :headshake
It is hard serving people who earn so much more money than you. Poor chap can't afford to fill up his SUV and yet one of his customers can afford to drive 10 miles out of her way just to buy a soda. Must be tough.
He's trying to make a point, shame so many are missing it. Or are you willing to pay higher prices just to see suv owners get fucked?
"Somebody out there is making money at these prices, but not me," said Pollack, 57. "So I just thought: What can I do to help the consumer?"
What he's doing (did) won't help in itself. But if he makes an impression on enough people, people that will say fuck this, I'm going to make a conscious effort to buy (use) less gas. Then he's a hero.
What's amazing is that the system is geared to his disadvantage. Everyone else in the chain, the government, the credit card companies, etc, works on a percentage. His markup is probably the same 8-12 cents a gallon whether gas is $2 or $4 per gallon. However, if there is such a thing as shrinkage, the loss of gas through evaporation (hopefully not), theft, etc, then those costs will continue to rise. He may end up making the same flat price on a more and more expensive product.
Making a $4 markup on a $20 watch is not too bad. Making a $4 markup on a $400 watch is a reason to walk away.
He's trying to make a point, shame so many are missing it. Or are you willing to pay higher prices just to see suv owners get fucked?
Yes.
What he's doing (did) won't help in itself. But if he makes an impression on enough people, people that will say fuck this, I'm going to make a conscious effort to buy (use) less gas. Then he's a hero.
Buying less gas means buying less
everything - which can be really hard when everything is shipped from china, over-packaged, and designed to break 2 days after the warranty expires. The gas you put in your vehicle is a small part of a huge picture. Buying a prius is a finger in the dyke solution.
Yes.
Brilliant. Really. :rolleyes:
People who have issues with SUVs crack me up. Ill informed and narrow minded.
People who have issues with SUVs crack me up. Ill informed and narrow minded.
We loved our H2's. Great truck. Great tax break as well!
And our H3 gets better mileage then our van and truck... people are idiots.
I don't have issues with SUVs, myself. I do have issues with people who buy gas-guzzlers and then complain about the price of gas. In the grand scheme of the middle class budget, as well as compared to the rest of the world, our gas prices are irrelevantly low. When people change their buying habits because of the price of gas--not bitch and moan about how they'll have to change soon, but actually change them--then gas prices will be relevant.
Gas costs what it costs. Paying too close attention to the day-to-day fluctuations is just going to give you high blood pressure. The price will forever continue to go up because of inflation, while the inflation-adjusted price will most likely cycle downward in another 4 or 5 years when our relationship with the mideast hits another stride. Meanwhile, alternative energies will continue to be refined, and even in the absence of innovation may eventually become more affordable by comparison if nothing else.
This guy may have a legitimate point, especially in regards to how small gas station owners get screwed by tiny margins while the oil suppliers get rich, but his protest had about as much effect as a car ribbon.
Gas is still cheaper than Coke. Which is water. From a hose. And some other stuff that costs about three cents.
Buying less gas means buying less everything - which can be really hard when everything is shipped from china, over-packaged, and designed to break 2 days after the warranty expires. The gas you put in your vehicle is a small part of a huge picture. Buying a prius is a finger in the dyke solution.
Brilliant. Really. :rolleyes:
I assumed, jinx, that you wanted an honest response. That was about as straight an answer as I could give.
I'm certainly willing to listen to someone who can explain why increasing fuel consumption isn't a significant factor in high gas prices. Refineries are running at capacity; oil output from most of the world's oil fields is running near capacity; American average fuel efficiency has been declining for many years - largely due to increased use of SUVs, vans and trucks - meaning more fuel use. So, if the drivers of high consumption vehicles (which I would arbitrarily say would be anything that gets less than 20 mpg) are a major contributing factor in high gas prices, they should suffer the effects of those high prices.
If you are concerned about the price of gas, the simple solution is to use less - either by driving less or by driving a vehicle that doesn't need as much gas. To drive 15,000 miles in a car getting 67 miles per gallon requires 224 gallons. To drive the same 15,000 miles in a car getting 15 mpg would use 1000 gallons. At $3.30/gallon, the SUV cost an extra $2500 to drive that same distance. Alternatively, the SUV could go 3,360 miles on the amount of gas that the Insight used to go 15,000 miles.
Below, I've quoted some of the responses from SUV owners, which are, so far, defensive, and don't explain why high consumption vehicles aren't responsible for the increased prices.
People who have issues with SUVs crack me up. Ill informed and narrow minded.
We loved our H2's. Great truck. Great tax break as well!
And our H3 gets better mileage then our van and truck... people are idiots.
I didn't quote Clodfobble or Beestie, but I thought that they made some good points.
[In the interest of full disclosure - I worked as an engineer in the automotive industry for 14 years. I became frustrated that they had no interest in fuel-efficient vehicles, so I left and started over in renewable energy.]
If you are concerned about the price of gas, the simple solution is to use less - either by driving less or by driving a vehicle that doesn't need as much gas.
The obvious American solution is to
add yet another vehicle to the family's fleet.
With gas prices well over $3 a gallon nationwide, many drivers are lining up to buy small cars.
But hundreds of thousands of consumers aren't giving up anything to downsize. Instead, they are simply adding pint-sized transportation to their driveways, parked alongside their SUV or pickup.
In households that own a small car, the family fleet is close to an average of three vehicles, according to CNW Marketing Research, which tracks industry trends (the national average is just over two cars per household, and America was a one-car-per-family nation a generation ago).
These growing fleets suggest an approach to conservation that is more addition than subtraction. "Small cars are like a fashion statement," said Art Spinella, president of CNW Marketing.
The obvious American solution is to add yet another vehicle to the family's fleet.
Kitsune, that's exactly what I did 4 years ago when I bought the Insight. I kept my truck for those days when we get 2 feet of snow and I have to go to work. I put an average of about 1,000 miles a year on the truck and 9,000 on the Insight.
Do you disagree with the article that it doesn't really make financial sense?
"From a dollars and cents point of view, it doesn't make sense," said Jesse Toprak, director of industry analysis for Edmunds.com, a Web site that offers car-buying advice. "There's no way you're going to drive it enough to justify the purchase, so it's more of a psychological decision."
Depending on one's driving habits, it might make sense. Really, though, if you have a car, what is the point of also owning an SUV?
Kitsune - when I bought my Insight in 2003 I went through the financial analysis and figured that I wouldn't be saving any money (at least during the first five years while I was paying off the loan), unless gas went to $4/gallon. If I sold my truck (a Ford Ranger) the economics would have been positive at about $3/gallon, and I was planning to do that, but we have too many days where I wouldn't be able to get to work in the Insight. (I live in the foothills west of Denver at 7,800 feet.)
As you mentioned, the economic analysis really depends on what you're comparing. It might be tough to justify purchasing a new Prius versus keeping an existing SUV, but if your choice is purchase a new Prius vs. purchase a new SUV, the Prius will save money both in the purchase cost and in the operational costs. If you're putting 20,000 miles per year on a truck that gets 15 mpg at $3.30 per gallon, you'll spend $4400 per year on gas. If you drive the same mileage in a Prius getting 55 mpg, you'll spend $3200 per year less. If the incremental cost of the Prius over some period of time (say 10 years), including fuel and insurance costs, is less than the comparable costs in the SUV, then it makes economic sense.
But there might be other reasons, beyond economics, to switch to a small car. They're easier to drive, easier to park, and handle better. One thing that I like about the Insight is that it can go 600 to 800 miles on a tank of gas, so I spend less time at the gas station.
A Corvette driver once made a comment to me that the Insight wouldn't pay for itself, and I said "But the Corvette will?" I didn't understand his logic, because he didn't have any.
2 years into truck ownership I do wish I had a car half the time. Commuting, the city, short trips, it's much easier to get around. But when I had the car, I wished I had a truck half the time. Hauling my bass gear, hauling big loads, running over rough terrain, 4x4 in bad conditions.
I think the answer would be to get a small car and an old used truck. Barring that, a really cool ute like the Infiniti FX.
I've always had a van or an SUV for the purpose of hauling drum equipment and/or construction materials. I have found, however, that I can pack a full kit into my wife's Honda.
Construction materials are trickier; folding the rear seat down and using the trunk and cab together, or running 2x4s diaganolly across the cab can get some jobs done in a pinch, for others I have to borrow my dad's truck (my jeep isn't running).
My dad's truck, btw, is an extended cab, duallie Dodge w/ the Cummings turbo diesel. He has it specifically because he is moving back to the country when he retires and he actually needs it to haul tractors, bulldozers, etc.
Flint, I think that you have the right idea - own a small car and borrow a truck when you need it. I occasionally lend mine to friends who are moving or need to pick up some large or dirty object that they don't want to put in their car.
Does anyone still make something like the El Camino? I know that Subaru was selling something along that line (the Justy?). That might be a good option for Undertoad.
I will be leasing a Chevrolet Avalanche come fall. I will need the extra room and power and 4x4 since I will be living in the desert, fighting flash floods, high winds and drifting sand. I will be hauling trailers, large items and sometimes several passengers.
I chose leasing over buying because of the low miles I intend to be driving, lower payments, new truck every few years instead of the same old one, (hopefully) better dealer service and improvement of my credit rating. The last is told to me by my accountant who seems to know what he's talking about but I fail to see how. But what the heck do I know about financial stuff? All I do is balance my checkbook now and then, plan a monthly budget and watch my savings account.
My loved one likes the option of having the truck in cetain cases as well as having the spare around for when hers needs to go in for repairs. But she's more happy with her minivan. I hide when we drive in it. LOL
BrianR, not to get off-topic, but what will you be doing in the desert? It sounds interesting.
Barring that, a really cool ute like the Infiniti FX.
"What's a ute?"
People who have issues with SUVs crack me up. Ill informed and narrow minded.
Nonsense. You need to connect the dots. The issue I have is with people who whine about paying a small fraction of the true costs of their vehicle at the pump. Next time you get pissed when some hippie flips you off in traffic, remember that your POS Hummer is a powerful symbol of your support for the Bush agenda. I am being subsidized in blood and taxes as well, but at least I acknowlege it and would prefer not to pass the cost on to someone else.
A vehicle is not a symbol of support of any administration. Gas hogs have been around for much, much longer than the current one. They are status symbols for some, mere transportation for others. I know people on both sides. A single buddy who drives a Mercedes G-class to his office job everyday - serious gas sucker - doesn't give a rat's ass about the EPA numbers on his baby. To him, it just states "I make more money than you." I also have friends with large families. 5 kids and 2 adults will not fit into a Prius no matter how much one wants it to happen.
The gas prices may stay up and the public and automakers will adjust. Or, they could drop again. Compare gas prices of the late 70's and early 80's with those in the early 90's. Big difference. Either way, those who care about their care are going to drive what they want to drive and make adjustments in other areas of their lives.
The whining won't be permanent and it is not always from the SUV owners. I drive a car which gets 26 miles to the gallon and I complain about the price.
... I drive a car which gets 26 miles to the gallon and I complain about the price.
Yes, but you're a Cantankerous Incantonator.
Nonsense. You need to connect the dots. The issue I have is with people who whine about paying a small fraction of the true costs of their vehicle at the pump. Next time you get pissed when some hippie flips you off in traffic, remember that your POS Hummer is a powerful symbol of your support for the Bush agenda. I am being subsidized in blood and taxes as well, but at least I acknowlege it and would prefer not to pass the cost on to someone else.
Pissed? Hardly, I just pity them for being stupid, uninformed and deluded.
Because the manufacturing was already in place for it, the H3 has a smaller carbon footprint, per mile, than any hybrid SUV.
Read that little fact in an article in here.
Because the manufacturing was already in place for it, the H3 has a smaller carbon footprint, per mile, than any hybrid SUV.
Read that little fact in an article in here.
That's a weird way to compare them. Manufacturing costs should be amortized over the life of the factory. They don't count just for the first generation of vehicles to come out of the factory. Using that standard, you could just as easily say that the first vehicle out of the plant cost billions and the second was just the cost of materials and labor.
Because the manufacturing was already in place for it, the H3 has a smaller carbon footprint, per mile, than any hybrid SUV.
I don't see your link, but I hope it isn't to that
faulty CNW "research" everyone always talks about.
Because the manufacturing was already in place for it, the H3 has a smaller carbon footprint, per mile, than any hybrid SUV.
I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about people driving gas hogs and whining about the price of gas, while good folks die in the sand. You must be having a different argument.
newguy- Everybody has their reasons, I have a gas sucking 4x4 pickup for farm stuff and a life endangering Echo for town driving. I just can't see whining about the price of gas when the only squeeze you (not you in particular) feel is because you chose poorly at the car lot. Folks need to align their vehicle choice with their reality. If rage can't afford a status only vehicle like a hummer he should park it. If we continue to subsidize gas, we are putting innovation on the back burner.
Griff - I certainly agree with you there.
I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about people driving gas hogs and whining about the price of gas, while good folks die in the sand. You must be having a different argument.
newguy- Everybody has their reasons, I have a gas sucking 4x4 pickup for farm stuff and a life endangering Echo for town driving. I just can't see whining about the price of gas when the only squeeze you (not you in particular) feel is because you chose poorly at the car lot. Folks need to align their vehicle choice with their reality. If rage can't afford a status only vehicle like a hummer he should park it. If we continue to subsidize gas, we are putting innovation on the back burner.
Status only? You have no idea why we have the vehicle. Speak of what you know.
It still gets better mileage than our truck, the truck before, our van and the SUV we used to have and our neighbor's SUV... speak of what you know.
Again, people who bitch about Hummers are clueless and good to laugh at.
UT's cartoon made me wonder, so here's some thread drift:
Beef Production myths. And it's from an unbiased source*.
Myth: Sixteen pounds of grain and soybeans are needed to produce 1 pound of beef.
This estimate is based on the false assumption that beef cattle are fed grain diets from birth to market weight. According to the Council for Agricultural Science and Technology (CAST) 1999 Animal Agriculture and Global Food Supply Report, an average of 2.6 pounds of grain is used to produce a pound of beef in developed countries and 0.3 lb. in developing countries. Animals don’t steal grains destined for the world’s hungry; instead they consume large amounts of feedstuffs not suitable for human consumption. This includes forage from marginal land that can’t be cultivated for human foods and food processors’ byproducts such as citrus pulp brewers’ grains, almond hulls and tomato pomace. The soybean product fed to cattle is a meal made of the bean flakes, which remain after the soy oil is extracted for human consumption. In addition, corn fed to cattle is feed corn grown specifically for use as livestock feed and of lower quality than corn grown for human consumption.
Tonight I'll eat a double bacon cheeseburger.
The Hummer is an easy target because the original ones were huge and simply a status symbol with little or no real need. Now, it is a different story. I would hope people are only using it as a type. If not, they should visit a site with the consumption numbers and use something more relevant.
Personally, I think they are ugly. That is not a crime against the environment. Only my eyes. But, there are many who think the same of my Camry.
UT's cartoon made me wonder, so here's some thread drift:
Beef Production myths. And it's from an unbiased source*.
Tonight I'll eat a double bacon cheeseburger.
We feed ours all kinds of stuff, none of which humans eat, a lot of industrial leftovers, pulp from orange juicing and beer mash, stuff like that.
Status only? You have no idea why we have the vehicle. Speak of what you know.
Again sorry, didn't realize you were fighting jihadists in sunny Florida. I want to make it clear that people can drive what they want, just quit it with the waaa waaa when Exxon bends you over the hood of your eyesore.
The one one whining is you about other people's vehicles.
Shame you can't read, our gas mileage improved over the last vehicles we replaced with it and our current ones. You might try hooked on phonics.
That's a weird way to compare them. Manufacturing costs should be amortized over the life of the factory. They don't count just for the first generation of vehicles to come out of the factory. Using that standard, you could just as easily say that the first vehicle out of the plant cost billions and the second was just the cost of materials and labor.
Not exactly, the factory can be amortized over the life of the factory, but the tooling for each specific model is amortized for that model. I think the tooling costs far exceed the factory cost.
When I say tooling, I'm including all the costs to design, refine and test the model prior to production as well as the specific tooling to manufacture it. The factory is just a box to keep the weather off the expensive shit.
UT's observation about needing two types of vehicles and often wishing you had worn the other one on that day, has led to the popularity of the short bed, 4 door, pickups. If you can't afford two vehicles that do their alloted tasks well, get one that does neither well.
Don't overlook the value of a utility trailer for occasional hauling, although most people would have to learn how to use it.
Not exactly, the factory can be amortized over the life of the factory, but the tooling for each specific model is amortized for that model. I think the tooling costs far exceed the factory cost.
When I say tooling, I'm including all the costs to design, refine and test the model prior to production as well as the specific tooling to manufacture it. The factory is just a box to keep the weather off the expensive shit.
Yes, but just as you can reuse some of the tooling from a previous version of the Hummer, you can reuse some of the tooling you come up with for the new hybrid in future hybrids. And there is plenty of new stuff in the H3 that isn't carried over from older versions, just as there will be in future hybrids.
What I was saying is that it's silly to penalize hybrids for being at the beginning of their amortization terms. Using that logic, we should still be in Model-Ts, to avoid the costs of retooling the factories.
Whether the cost is measured in dollars or carbon, it's expensive to bring in a new technology.
awesome mileage:rolleyes:
You are a joy to bait rage. Anyway your other vehicles must've been pretty poor performers if the .gov numbers are reliable.
Fuel Type Regular
MPG (city) 14
MPG (highway) 18
MPG (combined) 16
Please just take one thing from this exchange. We are laying claim to someone else's production every time we fill our gas tanks. We are not making a free exchange, we are taking, by force, the results of their labor.
Your numbers are off, ours is an 07, Hwy it gets 27, city 17. We have tested it several times.
I am buying gas from the person behind the counter.
You cannot bait someone who could care less about you.
Which is not what our actually gets.
Man, you really gotta work on that reading.
I bet there are programs in your area.
Which is not what our actually gets.
Man, you really gotta work on that reading.
I bet there are programs in your area.
For the 2003 Insight, fueleconomy.gov lists the mileage as 48 city, 59 highway, 53 combined, but I have consistently averaged 66 mpg or higher in mixed driving, with lots of up and down (altitude, I mean - home is about 2500 feet higher than work).
The "MPG Estimates from Drivers Like You" section lists mileage of 68 in real-world driving, but it might be that only those with very high mileage are likely to enter their data.
A point to rkzenrage.
The Hummer is an easy target because the original ones were huge and simply a status symbol with little or no real need. Now, it is a different story.
Of course. Today, the lives of Americans are so dramatically different from twenty years ago that the average family cannot get by with a mid-size car as the previous generation was once able to do with ease. The commutes of 2007 are nothing like our predecessors could have dreamed! The smooth, paved roads of the 1980s that once ferried families out for a comfortable drive to the grocery store for weekly shopping are now a driver's battlefield of washouts, boulders, and other off road trials that only an H2 can handle.
Of course, I'm kidding -- H2s and their low Tahoe chassis have as much to do with off roading as, well, Chevy Tahoes.
This is all besides the point, however, and the real story is about a dense gas station owner that shut down to "help the consumer" by, uh, removing one more piece of local competition so other stations can raise their prices. Good job, dumbass. That'll show 'em!
Maybe he is right. We can only hope that prices continue to go up, now, to encourage some alternatives so we can cut away from this addiction that has only one possible end. Sick of high gas prices? Tired of paying out a chunk of your paycheck so you can drive your car thirty-five miles, alone, to your job downtown from your beautiful suburbs? Shut up and ditch the SUV, move closer to town, start conserving, or all of the above. It's only going to get worse.
Of course. Today, the lives of Americans are so dramatically different from twenty years ago that the average family cannot get by with a mid-size car as the previous generation was once able to do with ease. The commutes of 2007 are nothing like our predecessors could have dreamed! The smooth, paved roads of the 1980s that once ferried families out for a comfortable drive to the grocery store for weekly shopping are now a driver's battlefield of washouts, boulders, and other off road trials that only an H2 can handle.
Excellent first paragraph. Point to Kitsune.
BrianR, not to get off-topic, but what will you be doing in the desert? It sounds interesting.
Not really interesting as such. My future wife lives in a desert due to severe arthritis and flatly refuses to move to me and get hooked on painkillers again. Women! Go figure! :lol:
This is all besides the point, however, and the real story is about a dense gas station owner that shut down to "help the consumer" by, uh, removing one more piece of local competition so other stations can raise their prices. Good job, dumbass. That'll show 'em!
No, no, no, he was trying to make a statement, but nobody got it.
2007 14/18mpg
You're mileage may vary.
H2s and their low Tahoe chassis have as much to do with off roading as, well, Chevy Tahoes.
As I understand it from pros that test these things, the H-2 is as capable off road, as any vehicle on the market including the CJ, except the H-1.
For the 2003 Insight, fueleconomy.gov lists the mileage as 48 city, 59 highway, 53 combined, but I have consistently averaged 66 mpg or higher in mixed driving, with lots of up and down (altitude, I mean - home is about 2500 feet higher than work).
How heavy a trailer will it tow?
How many kegs of beer and cases of chips will it hold?
How many suitcases can a family of 4, take to Wally World?
How far up the fire trail, to the hunting/fishing lodge, will it climb?
How many surf fishing rod holders will the front bumper handle.
Does bringing 500 lbs of salt home, as I did today, effect the mileage?
At the price of vehicles these days, very few can afford a complete set of them. That means most have to find the Crescent (adjustable) Wrench or Vice-Grips, that will do what they want to do, the best.
A two car family has the luxury of splitting the duties between vehicles, but the reality is, in many families both get driven to work. Even when only the husband works, unless you marry Jinx, the wife wants the lighter duty, more mileage vehicle for her kid taxi.*
To me, the Prius looks like a one-trick pony that wouldn't serve my needs(wants) very well. Besides, it doesn't look good on me.
*Yeah, I know, sexist stereotyping. It's just an example, deal with it.
To me, the Prius looks like a one-trick pony that wouldn't serve my needs(wants) very well. Besides, it doesn't look good on me.
Why on earth
wouldnt you want one?!
How heavy a trailer will it tow?
How many kegs of beer and cases of chips will it hold?
How many suitcases can a family of 4, take to Wally World?
How far up the fire trail, to the hunting/fishing lodge, will it climb?
How many surf fishing rod holders will the front bumper handle.
Does bringing 500 lbs of salt home, as I did today, effect the mileage?
Why don't people who buy these vehicles and use them 99.99% of the time to haul their sole ass to and from work everyday ask themselves this question after asking all of those:
How often will I really do those things and would it be cheaper to rent a vehicle when I need to?
How heavy a trailer will it tow?
How many kegs of beer and cases of chips will it hold?
How many suitcases can a family of 4, take to Wally World?
How far up the fire trail, to the hunting/fishing lodge, will it climb?
How many surf fishing rod holders will the front bumper handle.
Does bringing 500 lbs of salt home, as I did today, effect the mileage?
xoB, sorry for the confusion, I wasn't very clear. I was just saying that it is possible to get mileage significantly better than indicated by the EPA numbers.
But I have taken it to the top of the highest paved road in the US.
It sounds like you have a very active lifestyle. But you might want to work on reducing your salt intake. I hear it's bad for your blood pressure.
Gas is still cheaper than Coke. Which is water. From a hose. And some other stuff that costs about three cents.
But...it doesn't take me about five or six gallons of Coke a day just to earn a living and discharge my other duties and activities.
UT's observation about needing two types of vehicles and often wishing you had worn the other one on that day, has led to the popularity of the short bed, 4 door, pickups. If you can't afford two vehicles that do their alloted tasks well, get one that does neither well.
Yes, and that's why I ended up with... uh... um...
aw crap
Next time you get pissed when some hippie flips you off in traffic, remember that your POS Hummer is a powerful symbol of your support for the Bush agenda.
What a load of crap. When people flipped me off in my H2 I just ran em off the road. Idiots. That is some screwed up logic assumptions there...
xoB, sorry for the confusion, I wasn't very clear. I was just saying that it is possible to get mileage significantly better than indicated by the EPA numbers.
No apology necessary, no confusion either. I just snagged your post to comment, while big mileage numbers sound desirable...especially now... it's only one of the criteria most people are up against. People can cut their fuel bill, and be politically correct, by trading their ride for a super mileage vehicle.... piece of cake. But, it's best to be aware of lifestyle changes necessitated by such a move. Better than doing it,
then having the, "OH shit" moment.
That said, if they're getting 12mpg chances are they can't afford to do that stuff anyway. Everyone has to find their balance of priorities
But I have taken it to the top of the highest paved road in the US.
Mount Evans?
It sounds like you have a very active lifestyle.
Not me, I live vicariously through the adventures posted here in the Cellar.
But you might want to work on reducing your salt intake. I hear it's bad for your blood pressure.
You'll be eating those words when the giant slug invasion starts.
Yes, and that's why I ended up with... uh... um...
aw crap
Without excess family, or rampant home handy man urges,
it was a good choice for you.
It cracks me up when people want to bitch and whine about a difference of 5 miles per gallon between vehicles. When we start to look at the amount of energy used by 18 wheelers and gas/oil powered factories the amount of gas used by an SUV is a drop in the bucket. If I can afford to buy the gas at $5 a gallon and want to drive an H2 that is my business. Many parts of the Hummers use recycled parts. But the Hummer is not really the issue. It is all these supposed liberally minded anti-government people turning around and telling others what they can and cannont spend their money on all the while bitching about government interference in their lives...
The other great thing is watching someone who drives a 20 year old car that leaks oil all over the road and burn gas much less efficiently than any new engine flipping off someone in a truck that is 5 times the weight of their little car. That's a brain surgeon right their, not.
Mount Evans?
Yes, exactly. 14,264 feet (but you have to walk those last few feet).
Have you been there?
You'll be eating those words when the giant slug invasion starts.
That depends. I might rather eat the slugs. Giant slugs. I'm sure we have a recipe, at home or in the Cellar.
Mount Evans is beautiful. Been there a few times. Use to live in Aurora when I was stationed at Fitz in the late 1980's. Use to love that drive because it was easy to see the heards of mountain goats/sheep that lived up on the top.
Yes, and the whistle pigs, too. I have lots of pictures of the goats, as we usually go up whenever we have visitors in town in the summer. We can almost see Mt. Evans from the house.
Yes, exactly. 14,264 feet (but you have to walk those last few feet).
Have you been there?
No, Pike's a couple times but not Evans.
That depends. I might rather eat the slugs. Giant slugs. I'm sure we have a recipe, at home or in the Cellar.
Don't be silly, you don't eat giant slugs.... giant slugs eat you.
A point to rkzenrage.
Sure. I acknowleged the .gov figures are dubious. The only bitches I have with rage on this is that he thinks he's paying his own way and he's whinning about the price of gas.
we did our bit for the environment and downsized, giving up our larger car for a smaller 4 cylinder. We don't even pay for fuel or the car. It's part of hubby's salary package.
We just felt it was one thing we could do to help. It means we need to buy a trailer for the times we need to carry more stuff, but for general day to day living, we don't need a big car.
I don't like all the big cars on the road. They shit me to tears because more than half the people driving them don't know what the fuck they're doing and they are a hazard to other drivers, aside from the fact that they're wasting resources.
What a load of crap. When people flipped me off in my H2 I just ran em off the road. Idiots.
Good job reinforcing the negative stereotype, there.
But the Hummer is not really the issue. It is all these supposed liberally minded anti-government people turning around and telling others what they can and cannont spend their money on all the while bitching about government interference in their lives...
You are right: the H2 really isn't the issue, here, although I have no idea what anti-government liberals have to do with it, either. (?) Gas guzzling SUVs are a drop in the bucket compared to the overall excessive American lifestyle and the refusal to live efficiently -- high gas prices are going to bite people in many more aspects besides their commute. The vehicle is the most easily noted example in people's lives and the easiest to see a direct connection. Environmental issues aside, a switch for many would be good. Even in this most obvious aspect, people aren't doing it despite the tax on their bank account and the stubbornness bewilders the rest of us.
I'm really interested as to why so many people, especially the complainers, are so resistant to switching. I have a whole crew of people at my office that exclusively drive pickup trucks and will not consider switching to a small vehicle. They:
...are not contractors or construction workers.
...do not regularly haul equipment or supplies.
...do not haul a trailer.
...are most often the only thing the truck is hauling.
Despite all of these points, each of them notes they have no plans to drive anything other than a pickup now or in the future. The high cost of gasoline has been enough to push several of them into financial difficulty because of long commutes to the point that one has been lamenting that he might "actually have to switch to a closer church" rather than the one he prefers. Do people think the soaring cost of fuel is temporary? Are all of these deluded drivers waiting for the impossible day the government does something to reduce the price of gas?
Good job reinforcing the negative stereotype, there.
You are right: the H2 really isn't the issue, here, although I have no idea what anti-government liberals have to do with it, either. (?) Gas guzzling SUVs are a drop in the bucket compared to the overall excessive American lifestyle and the refusal to live efficiently -- high gas prices are going to bite people in many more aspects besides their commute. The vehicle is the most easily noted example in people's lives and the easiest to see a direct connection. Environmental issues aside, a switch for many would be good. Even in this most obvious aspect, people aren't doing it despite the tax on their bank account and the stubbornness bewilders the rest of us.
I'm really interested as to why so many people, especially the complainers, are so resistant to switching. I have a whole crew of people at my office that exclusively drive pickup trucks and will not consider switching to a small vehicle. They:
...are not contractors or construction workers.
...do not regularly haul equipment or supplies.
...do not haul a trailer.
...are most often the only thing the truck is hauling.
Despite all of these points, each of them notes they have no plans to drive anything other than a pickup now or in the future. The high cost of gasoline has been enough to push several of them into financial difficulty because of long commutes to the point that one has been lamenting that he might "actually have to switch to a closer church" rather than the one he prefers. Do people think the soaring cost of fuel is temporary? Are all of these deluded drivers waiting for the impossible day the government does something to reduce the price of gas?
The "stereotype" goes both ways. The one giving the finger is making assumptions (big assumptions) about the said driver of the Hummer by flipping the finger. The said driver feels the idiot should be driven off the road for flipping the finger and making assumptions.
We got rid of our H2 after 2 years more for practical reasons than because we did not like the truck. I have driven a PU since 1998 and will never be without one. I need it mostly to pull a boat and trailer with a combined weight of nearly #5000. There really is no incentive to drive anything else. They are comfortable and useful for numerous things. I have a Crew Cab so it can take my whole family or kids and friends or me and the wife or just me when I drive to and from work. We are not deluded drivers (another assumption). The price of gas is painful but an extra $20 or $30 a week is really not that much for me so I am not about to trade in the truck I love to drive because of a increase in gas by $1 per gallon. When it gets to $8 or $10 I may re-consider, but maybe not. If someone is stretching the cash flow to put food on the table because a small increase in gas I would suggest they have a priority problem.
I am thinking about trading in for a new truck now but may wait as in 08 they are coming out (finally) with some F-150's with diesel engines, or I may just go with the full sized Toyota.
I am not contractors or construction workers.
I do not not regularly haul equipment or supplies.
I do haul a trailer a few times each month.
Most often the only thing the truck is hauling is me.
It all comes back to my original point, how is it that a fairly liberal minded mass of people want to bitch and moan about everything government and how their liberties are being effected then turn right around and tell me what I can or cannot buy and spend my money on in a truck I choose to drive?
It all comes back to my original point, how is it that a fairly liberal minded mass of people want to bitch and moan about everything government and how their liberties are being effected then turn right around and tell me what I can or cannot buy and spend my money on in a truck I choose to drive?
I've not heard of much push for legislation banning certain vehicles other than for safety reasons. Even the notion that the national speed limit of fifty-five miles per hour should return to save gasoline isn't uttered on the house floor without return of death threats. We're going to see more push for government involvement to get oil profits questioned (again, yawn) and suggested increases in government subsidizing of consumer gasoline. Hopefully, none of this will happen and the market will be left to continue its march upward in price.
People can drive whatever they want, I could care less, and I'd like to see less attitude from
both sides of the SUV/anti-SUV crowd, especially regarding actions that would endanger lives on the road. I have no sympathy for fools that buy vehicles they can afford now but make no allowment for gasoline price increases in the future. Their mistakes are their own.
In Colorado we've been in a drought for several years (this seems to be a common theme around the world), and water restrictions are very common - when you can water your lawn, how much water, etc. Some houses in my area aren't permitted to use water outside of their houses for any reason, not even for their horses or to wash their car.
One homeowner who was interviewed by the local paper said, "I'm paying for it, so I should be able to use all the water I want."
This is similar to the gasoline/oil debate. If there is a limited resource that everyone is depending on, are you entitled to use a disproportionately large share just because you can afford it?
To me, this is what it all comes down to.
We have a small SUV (Isuzu rodeo), and I kind of hate it. Daniel got it when he was living in Tennessee and driving three hours through the Blue Ridge mountains to visit his family almost every weekend, and frequently using it to ferry around his huge family and/or their stuff. That makes sense to me. Now that we live in the suburbs, it spends a lot of time collecting dust while we take the metro everywhere because it's cheaper than gas and parking. We've already decided that our next car is going to be a hybrid, since our current lifestyle pretty much requires stop-and-go city driving and not much else.
I don't like the idea of judging people based on their purchases and lifestyle choices, since everyone has different needs and situations. I have to admit that huge SUVs annoy me, though, because there are so many of them here that a lot of the time, when you park a regular-sized car like my parents' Camry or even the Rodeo in a garage or lot, two Escalades or H2s will park on either side of you so you have no visibility when you back out of the space. Grrr! :p
In Colorado we've been in a drought for several years (this seems to be a common theme around the world), and water restrictions are very common - when you can water your lawn, how much water, etc. Some houses in my area aren't permitted to use water outside of their houses for any reason, not even for their horses or to wash their car.
One homeowner who was interviewed by the local paper said, "I'm paying for it, so I should be able to use all the water I want."
This is similar to the gasoline/oil debate. If there is a limited resource that everyone is depending on, are you entitled to use a disproportionately large share just because you can afford it?
To me, this is what it all comes down to.
Busybody.
You have no idea why people own the vehicles they do... you just want to tell people what to do.
You live in the wrong kind of nation... must suck to hate freedom and live where it is protected.
In Colorado we've been in a drought for several years (this seems to be a common theme around the world), and water restrictions are very common - when you can water your lawn, how much water, etc. Some houses in my area aren't permitted to use water outside of their houses for any reason, not even for their horses or to wash their car.
One homeowner who was interviewed by the local paper said, "I'm paying for it, so I should be able to use all the water I want."
This is similar to the gasoline/oil debate. If there is a limited resource that everyone is depending on, are you entitled to use a disproportionately large share just because you can afford it?
To me, this is what it all comes down to.
Tell ya what. When the govenment starts to ration gas because of a shortage and issue some kind of quota on how much you can use then it might be an issue. Till then gas is not being rationed as water is in time of a drought. You cannot really think that water as a finite resource is comparable to gasoline.
... When the govenment starts to ration gas because of a shortage and issue some kind of quota on how much you can use then it might be an issue. Till then gas is not being rationed as water is in time of a drought. You cannot really think that water as a finite resource is comparable to gasoline.
TheMercenary - I agree with you completely: water isn't really used up, it just gets recycled. Oil, as you said, is a finite resource. Once it's gone, it's gone. It's not going to rain more oil.
So perhaps there should be steps to limit consumption. I'll support you on this. But is it best implemented through a quota system, or through a significantly increased gas tax, or something else?
This is similar to the gasoline/oil debate. If there is a limited resource that everyone is depending on, are you entitled to use a disproportionately large share just because you can afford it.
Water is required for life, gasoline is not. Many people think gas is a necessity, but you're not going to die without it.
Down here when a hurricane comes, they only laws enacted on gas are anti price gouging ones intended for emergencies. Even though everyone needs gasoline for generators or evacuations and shortages abound, the state doesn't ration it and everyone still seems to do just fine.
Tell that to someone on a respirator.
Tell that to someone on a respirator.
I had no idea there were gasoline powered respirators. For those that need power during a storm for life sustaining equipment, I'd highly suggest installing a natural gas powered system that runs off the local supply. Being that power outages in hurricane prone areas can last for weeks, there's no way I'd trust my life to an unleaded gas generator since it is so difficult to stock the stuff or find it before, during, and after a storm hits.
The best plan for people that require power for their life sustaining equipment: have enough gasoline in your car and a decent evacuation plan. Don't stick around if your life is in danger. It isn't worth it.
TheMercenary - I agree with you completely: water isn't really used up, it just gets recycled. Oil, as you said, is a finite resource. Once it's gone, it's gone. It's not going to rain more oil.
So perhaps there should be steps to limit consumption. I'll support you on this. But is it best implemented through a quota system, or through a significantly increased gas tax, or something else?
I don't think a tax is the answer. I think when Congress grows some balls and tells all auto makers that sell trucks and cars in the US to raise the cafe' standards to a minimum of 30 mpg for all cars, not an average, we really will not see any changes. We need to eliminate special interest lobbying and go to a bi-cameral legislation. My pipe dream... There is no shortage of oil. I don't think all the sources have been properly exploited yet. No way even near. But that does not mean that we should not begin a smooth transition to alternative sources. It will happen.
Exactly, punitive taxes are for socialists... not Americans..
I had no idea there were gasoline powered respirators. For those that power during a storm for life sustaining equipment, I'd highly suggest installing a natural gas powered system that runs off the local supply. Being that power outages in hurricane prone areas can last for weeks, there's no way I'd trust my life to a gas generator since it is so difficult to stock the stuff or find it before, during, and after a storm hits.
The best plan for people that require power for their life sustaining equipment: have enough gasoline in your car and a decent evacuation plan. Don't stick around if your life is in danger. It isn't worth it.
What do you think we use to run electricity after a hurricane?
How will that natural gas get delivered after the second week of downed services?
I live in this place, you do not... speak of what you know. It is a
lot easier to stock and run a gas gen than natural gas here. There are no in ground lines, and where there are, most of the times service is interrupted after a storm, tree roots pull them up.
What do you think we use to run electricity after a hurricane?
How will that natural gas get delivered after the second week of downed services?
I live in this place, you do not... speak of what you know. It is a lot easier to stock and run a gas gen than natural gas here. There are no in ground lines, and where there are, most of the times service is interrupted after a storm, tree roots pull them up.
Well, I guess you're taking your chances, then. There's absolutely no way I'd do it. I'm not even a native and I've seen enough shortages and hoarding during the last four years of storms to know I wouldn't trust a generator if my life depended on it. I'd get the hell out.
The state repeatedly tells people they're on their own for at least 48 hours following hurricane landfall. Defense, food, water, everything is up to you. I don't think rationing has ever happened due to a hurricane, here, nor would I trust the government when simply getting gasoline supplies into the state is damn near impossible for many days after the catastrophe.
What do you think we use to run electricity after a hurricane?
How will that natural gas get delivered after the second week of downed services?
I live in this place, you do not... speak of what you know. It is a lot easier to stock and run a gas gen than natural gas here. There are no in ground lines, and where there are, most of the times service is interrupted after a storm, tree roots pull them up.
And you need power to run the pumps that pump the gas. The key is to have your own stock and run a generator sparingly. I would say most should plan for 2 to 3 weeks of no power in a worst case senerio. I live right on the coast and have no doubt that I can hold out for that long. I have a boat that holds 135 gal. That is a great resource for a generator that holds 4 gallons of gas.
We have a hand pump... people keep forgetting that we own a ranch and many groves.
On our own for 48hrs, LOL, what a genius! Try weeks.
During season we keep military gas cans stored behind each home... there are several, remember?
I don't think a tax is the answer. I think when Congress grows some balls and tells all auto makers that sell trucks and cars in the US to raise the cafe' standards to a minimum of 30 mpg for all cars, not an average, we really will not see any changes. We need to eliminate special interest lobbying and go to a bi-cameral legislation. My pipe dream... There is no shortage of oil. I don't think all the sources have been properly exploited yet. No way even near. But that does not mean that we should not begin a smooth transition to alternative sources. It will happen.
You're right. The biggest problem with a tax is that it hurts the poor the most.
The thing that I'm really afraid of is government monitoring of vehicle travel, which has been proposed in some countries - using electronic tags on vehicles to measure vehicle miles travelled and tax based on that.
P.S. Good word, bi-cameral. You sure you were in the military? (I was in the SeaBees.)
You're right. The biggest problem with a tax is that it hurts the poor the most.
The thing that I'm really afraid of is government monitoring of vehicle travel, which has been proposed in some countries - using electronic tags on vehicles to measure vehicle miles travelled and tax based on that.
P.S. Good word, bi-cameral. You sure you were in the military? (I was in the SeaBees.)
Very cool. Thanks for your time of service. My dad (was) and brother are both Navy Vets. The latest thing I heard about was London talking about taxing vehicles that came into the city, with those going to the most congested areas at peak times the highest. I see the purpose in the thought process, it just sounds so punitive.
We have a hand pump... people keep forgetting that we own a ranch and many groves.
On our own for 48hrs, LOL, what a genius! Try weeks.
During season we keep military gas cans stored behind each home... there are several, remember?
I find the "48 hour rule" to be pretty unreasonable, too. Especially for people out your way, I'd plan on not hearing anything from authorities for...yeah, week
s. Even out here I'd plan on not getting help for four or more days. Really sad.
It took a week when we lived in a regular residential neighborhood one year.
Look at the Katrina survivors. That ought to be a pretty good example of a worst case situation.
So. Why in the hell don't you move?
Hurricanes where I live are very rare, until the four hit in one year, we had not had a direct hit since 1968 and that was only a light 3.
A Cat 4 would take out my house. Til then I'm staying on the water.
this might be a possible solution in the future........
water-to-fire
"You could take plain salt water out of the sea, put it in containers and produce a violent flame that could heat generators that make electricity, or provide other forms of energy," Kanzius said.
But I see the oil companies buying this invention up so that it could never be duplicated...
this might be a possible solution in the future........
water-to-fire
But I see the oil companies buying this invention up so that it could never be duplicated...
Very interesting. Did you read the
other article linked at the bottom?
I'm going to buy stock in salt water.
You could take plain salt water out of the sea, put it in containers and produce a violent flame that could heat generators that make electricity, or provide other forms of energy
...by using a machine that requires more energy than it produces just like the other method people keep banking on that uses water to produce fuel, electrolysis.
Filling a test tube with salt water from a canal in his back yard, Kanzius placed the tube and a paper towel in the machine and turned it on. Suddenly, the paper towel ignited, lighting up the tube like it was a wax candle.
Backyard canal? Remember the Cuyahoga River fire?
Yes, and the whistle pigs, too. I have lots of pictures of the goats, as we usually go up whenever we have visitors in town in the summer. We can almost see Mt. Evans from the house.
I just found these Mt. Evans pictures while cleaning my hard drive: goats and whistlepig.
Both pictures were taken right along the road that goes to the top of Mt. Evans, somewhere around 14,000 feet ASL.
Wild. I just commented about these on the other thread.
Kitsune, that's exactly what I did 4 years ago when I bought the Insight. I kept my truck for those days when we get 2 feet of snow and I have to go to work. I put an average of about 1,000 miles a year on the truck and 9,000 on the Insight.
Ya I drive my L4 mini almost all the time but I still need my stake body dually a dozen or so times a year.
Does anyone still make something like the El Camino? I know that Subaru was selling something along that line (the Justy?). That might be a good option for Undertoad.
A minivan is a better bet. You essentially can't beat them for semi secure cargo carrying in a small relatively decent fuel economy package.
A minivan is a better bet. You essentially can't beat them for semi secure cargo carrying in a small relatively decent fuel economy package.
Undertoad? Drive a soccer mom minivan? Oh, the humanity!
Naw, I wouldn't mind getting a beater soccer mom van just to haul stuff around, but then I would have to have a regular car for daily driving.
The key is too not get a soccer mom minivan. Something that say runs
13s.
