Amnesty In America

I am confused about this bill that is going to pass the Senate.
I have alot of questions. Please comment on your vote. Thank you

Too confusing. A point system is very stupid way to handle an issue like this. There is only one way to solve this problem and no one is even considering it.

Well, the bill doesn't involve amnesty for one thing. There's a large fine proposed, along with a few other things. What are your questions?

can you both elaborate a little?

What is the point system?
What is the one way to solve this no one is considering?
Why dosn't the bill involve amnesty?
What are the other things besides the fine?

thanks for answers in advance...

The point system is a way of telling who can get into the country and who can't. Like if you have a child or something you get a certain amount of points, if you can speak English you get a certain amount of points, etc. I don't know exactly how it works but point systems never work so this one won't either, especially when it comes to immigration.

How to solve our immigration problem.... I am probably going to take fire from this but I the immigration rush is a direct result of capitalism and imperialism. The US goes to countries installs a system which keeps the people in that country poor and the American companies and puppet regimes of that country keep the profit.

Now, the immigration debate is usually split into two parts. One side wants to kick them out and one side wants to let them in. Basically the pro and con from each side are that immigrants are taking our jobs, creating a population explosion, and robbing people of their tax money put kicking them out is unrealistic, unethical, and very expensive while the other sides is that they help us with economy by taking undesirable, low paying jobs, we are a nation of immigrant so it is hypocritical to kick them out, and they do pay taxes while they are overrunning our country etc.

To get to the point neither side is good and while finding a balance between the two will help, it won't solve anything. Those two solutions are just solving the result of the problem while doing nothing to solve the initial problem.

The initial problem is that they have very tough lives in Mexico and Central and South America and they want to live a better life in America. We only accept a very few amount of people in and many can't wait that long since the waiting lists is years long.

Instead of stopping immigration we should focus on what causes these people to immigrate to America and solve that. Allowing all the immigrants in America will only encourage more to come and banning them from coming will drastically hurt relations and bottle the problem up to a revolution status similar to Iran's Islamic Revolution.

Neither of these is desirable so of course the best solution is to solve the problem at its start. The way to solve this is to help Mexico and the rest of the Americas to get on their feet and support their economy instead of taking advantage of them. This will bring them up to us instead of us pushing them down to raise our level.

This article helps explain the point system.

As for the punishments/conditions and how it is not amnesty, this will help.

Everything americans do is confusing so why is this different? Half of you think it is acceptable to be invaded and the other half does not.

duck_duck;346703 wrote:

Everything americans do is confusing so why is this different? Half of you think it is acceptable to be invaded and the other half does not.

That's the way we are on every issue.:crazy:

duck_duck;346703 wrote:

Everything americans do is confusing so why is this different? Half of you think it is acceptable to be invaded and the other half does not.

That's a big part of our charm, duck. When do you go away again? I can't wait.

Spexxvet;346716 wrote:

That's the way we are on every issue.:crazy:

blame the religious right for that.

skysidhe;346740 wrote:

blame the religious right for that.

Or, just blame the entire nation--that seems reasonable.

Amnesty will cost us more than deportation.

No amnesty, close the borders. Tight.

MASHfreak, you talk of two sides, but you only seem to deal with one type of immigrant? What about the highly skilled immigrants? The people who are brought in because there is not available USC with the desired skills. They come here legally, but are also affected by laws made to deal with illegal immigration. You need these immigrants, if only to replace the skilled Americans who emmigrate out. Entire different ball game but same ball field.

monster;346920 wrote:

MASHfreak, you talk of two sides, but you only seem to deal with one type of immigrant? What about the highly skilled immigrants? The people who are brought in because there is not available USC with the desired skills. They come here legally, but are also affected by laws made to deal with illegal immigration. You need these immigrants, if only to replace the skilled Americans who emmigrate out. Entire different ball game but same ball field.

What I hear is that American business wants the opposite - unskilled laborers who will work for next to nothing, doing jobs that "Americans don't want to do" (translate: business doesn't want to pay Americans enough to do those jobs). I don't have a problem with these folks becoming US citizens, and play by the same rules that we do. They must make minimum wage, and pay taxes, and businesses must be penalized for paying "under the table".

monster;346920 wrote:

What about the highly skilled immigrants? The people who are brought in because there is not available USC with the desired skills. They come here legally, but are also affected by laws made to deal with illegal immigration.

Not so, this has no effect on people that are here legally, that I can see.

bluecuracao;346668 wrote:

This article helps explain the point system.

As for the punishments/conditions and how it is not amnesty, this will help.

The law says people that have entered this country illegally are to be deported. If they are not, it is amnesty.

and hmm... what are the odds that someone's going to pay 5k as a fine when they are already here and more or less integrated? I treid to emigrate to canada and/or ireland and lt me tell you.. canada's a beeyotch... ireland (when I was looking anyway) wasn't so bad, but they were dealing with a bad emigration problem at the time.. nowadays? dunno. I was willing to go thru the proper channels... then again.. my life here isn't so bad... in a few more years I may try again...

on the above note, yeah... sorry... the 'american way' is not supposed to be deception etc. (yeah yeah yeah.. i know... but it's the ideal that we are dealing with. not the reality). I think that if you are here illegally, yes. you ought to be deported and billed for the transit costs... heh.. then again if you can't bill someone for medical costs (with the evil machine that that is) then.. well... the above is kinda moot.. huh?.. or for being able to find someone after they have committed vehicular manslaughter.. heh... suppose it's asking too much to ask them to pay the bill...then again I think I need a nap since I've been doing a job most americans don't want to do all day.

monster;346920 wrote:

MASHfreak, you talk of two sides, but you only seem to deal with one type of immigrant? What about the highly skilled immigrants? The people who are brought in because there is not available USC with the desired skills. They come here legally, but are also affected by laws made to deal with illegal immigration. You need these immigrants, if only to replace the skilled Americans who emmigrate out. Entire different ball game but same ball field.

I thought we were specifically talking about illegal immigrants.

Either or, I am in favor of keeping these highly skilled immigrants, who wouldn't? Unless you are getting at something different.

Eventually a movie will be made about this and it will be called ... The Amnestyville Horror. :worried:

None of the four answers provided are what I think of the matter.

I'm really not very interested in any of the provisions of this Act. It does nothing to address the root cause of the problem: that other nations lack a middle class into which the mass of the poor may bootstrap themselves, either within or between generations. Searching for a solution, they come to a place that basically started out entirely as middle-class smallholders: the United States.

We aren't going to solve our immigration problem. The solution is in Mexico and the rest of Latin America homegrowing a middle class. They need to lose the culture of corruption that is pretty much the retirement plan for minor officialdom -- I've no clear idea how many times this multiplies, in effect, the tax burden on the people and their economy, but multiply it it clearly does. They need to secure property rights from rapaciousness public or private, and they're not too good at that yet, witness Chavez's antics in Venezuela. He'll buy them a depression yet before he's ousted.

Large Landowners vs. Everybody Else There is no way to keep things, as land-reform revolutions demonstrate. Ownership of all descriptions must be generally spread around, not exclusively concentrated, and with it, the wealth. North America got this right; Latin America needs to.

I agree, Mexico and southward, grew out of the Spanish system of masters and peons. Every time they had a revolution, they ended up with a different master, rather than a changed system. It seems to be the nature of the people to accept masters until they become too cruel to suffer anymore.

It is NOT, however, our job to change things there, because it will just bite us in the ass again, as it has everywhere else.

Brianna;346743 wrote:

Or, just blame the entire nation--that seems reasonable.

I don't know about that. I am pretty sure Al Gore won the popular vote. The people voted Democrates to lead both the House and the Senate so things should be going our way.

I guess we need to be sticking more than a flimsy twig in that Republican cog.

No truly effective comprehensive immigration reform bill passed in the 109th Congress because the entire immigration debate was saddled by proposals to enact a mass amnesty and reward those who have broken the law. Thus, the 109th Congress yet again missed an opportunity to pass an immigration reform agenda that will truly serve our national interest.

Last year, there were some gains in the enforcement arena. Congress authorized the construction of 700 miles of fencing along the southern border, the hiring of more law enforcement agents, and the creation of more detention space. In addition, Congress passed the REAL ID Act to improve the uniformity and integrity of driver's licenses issued throughout the United States. These were all reforms that FAIR advocated and fought for on Capitol Hill.

Unfortunately, while the passage of these measures suggests progress, it is entirely uncertain whether they will bear fruit. First, the funding for these reforms is by no means certain. For example, Congress only authorized about $1.2 billion needed for fencing, an amount proponents say will actually only build about 390 miles. Ongoing funding is also needed for the creation of detention space and the hiring and training of law enforcement agents. And, even if lawmakers are dedicated to funding these reforms, it will take at least a couple of years to see results. Finally, the incoming Congress and the election of many new members creates further uncertainty with respect to these enforcement reforms and any others on FAIR's agenda. Some members of Congress have publicly stated they intend to revisit immigration-related legislation passed in the 109th Congress (specifically the Secure Fence Act) and make adjustments where deemed necessary. This does not bode well for reformers who supported their passage in the first place.

In the area of legal immigration, the 109th Congress can claim no progress whatsoever. No action was taken on the urgent need to limit and roll back immigration, no action was taken to eliminate abuse in the refugee and asylum program, and an immense backlog still exists in processing immigration applications due to slow-moving background checks. Meanwhile, in the last waning hours of the session, Congress managed to pass special interest language extending three guest worker programs. These programs allow nurses, doctors, and certain skilled individuals to work in the United States and compete with U.S. workers.

In short, while the 109th Congress did not pass a comprehensive immigration reform package, a handful of smaller immigration-related measures passed via other bills. These measures were:


http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=leg_110_reform_agenda

wolf;346884 wrote:

Amnesty will cost us more than deportation.

No amnesty, close the borders. Tight.

Exactly, I was wondering why there was not a "no amnesty, we have a right to enforce our perfectly reasonable laws" option.

duck_duck;346703 wrote:

Everything americans do is confusing so why is this different? Half of you think it is acceptable to be invaded and the other half does not.

Especially the part where posts are based on invented facts. Invaded? They are here because we need workers, they need the work, and the law is written to undermine free market principles. 1.8 million needed just for agriculture. So the law only permits 29,000. An intelligent person would say the law is wrong. But no-o-o-o. We must enforce an unenforceable law only because it is a law.

Another outright lie - illegal immigrants cost us more money. A complete myth. They pay taxes and don't apply for refunds. They are some of the best employees in town. When removed in mass, the region then goes into economic downturn. 60 Minutes in June 2006 demonstrated this myopia when we complain about the illegals. Federal agents were invited into Nebraska to sweep illegals from meat processing plants. Federal sweep was so successful that the region suffered a massive economic downturn. The Feds were strongly invited to leave so that the illegals would come back.

As if the lessons of prohibition can be forgotten, suddenly we blame porous borders. More bull by those who only know because they can shit?

In the Silicon Valley, ICs are important. That's not integrated circuits. ICs now account for more than 50% of the employees: Indians and Chinese. Even there, H1-B government approval has been limited by stupid laws causing some companies to move operations out of America. More immigration problems solved - by driving businesses out of the country. Blame those evil Indians and Chinese by passing more legal restrictions.

Illegal immigration problem only exist where wacko extremist wants to blame the people and not blame draconian and myopically inspired laws. 29,000 visas for an industry that needs 1.8 million immigrants? That is justification for blaming those immigrants.

Pass a law that bans kissing anyone named Monica. That will solve all sex problems - in the same spirite of current immigration laws. Only problem with illegal immigrants are those who know answers by denying the real problem - the law.

From outside the country, everything would appear confusing. They are not us. Therefore they must be evil. Ban them from the country. 29,000 visas for an industry that needs to employ 1.8 million immigrants. Therefore the law could never be wrong.

Urbane Guerrilla;347190 wrote:

We aren't going to solve our immigration problem. The solution is in Mexico and the rest of Latin America homegrowing a middle class. They need to lose the culture of corruption that is pretty much the retirement plan for minor officialdom -- I've no clear idea how many times this multiplies, in effect, the tax burden on the people and their economy, but multiply it it clearly does. They need to secure property rights from rapaciousness public or private, and they're not too good at that yet,

I agree with a lot of this except the anti-socialization part but do you think the US has anything to do with this?

witness Chavez's antics in Venezuela. He'll buy them a depression yet before he's ousted.

Besides the dip in the early 2000's, Chavez has done decently well for Venezuela. They are in a slow but steady rise since the dip, which mainly had to do with oil prices.

xoxoxbruce wrote:

It is NOT, however, our job to change things there, because it will just bite us in the ass again, as it has everywhere else.

I wouldn't say that. Just because all of our modern way of changing things in other countries has bitten us in the ass doesn't mean that if we do it right, it can't perform miracles. The biggest problem we've had is that we try to force other countries to our way of thinking and do to take matters into our own hands.

We can't forget how well the Marshall Plan did for European countries after WWII. There are ways of helping countries get out of poverty, but we just haven't been exercising them lately.

tw;347330 wrote:

Especially the part where posts are based on invented facts. Invaded? They are here because we need workers, they need the work, and the law is written to undermine free market principles. 1.8 million needed just for agriculture. So the law only permits 29,000. An intelligent person would say the law is wrong. But no-o-o-o. We must enforce an unenforceable law only because it is a law.

OK, keep the 1.8 million working in agriculture and send the other 15 million home.

Another outright lie - illegal immigrants cost us more money. A complete myth. They pay taxes and don't apply for refunds.

You still don't think the ones not working for cash, are too stupid to fill out a W-4 form with a bunch of dependents, so they not only don't have to apply for a refund they end up delinquent before they move on.

There are a slew of websites with tons of charts and numbers saying you're wrong, but you'll say they are bias and lying.
OK, lets take the state of Minnesota which would be far below the states with big impact like CA, TX, etc. This report by the The Office of Strategic Planning & Results Management, Minnesota Department of Administration, to Governor Tim Pawlenty.
Federal cost per household headed by an illegal alien... $2736 each
Minnesota deports most of the illegal alien criminals, but the really serious criminals cost $13 million to incarcerate.
Medical care? Minnesota ate $36 million on illegals.
K-12 education has two categories;
Illegal alien kids = $118 million
legal kids of illegal aliens = $39 million

Again, this is Minnesota, faaaaaaar from the border, with a relatively small population of Illegals.

They are some of the best employees in town.

Now that's an anecdotal generalization that can't be applied to ANY single group

When removed in mass, the region then goes into economic downturn. 60 Minutes in June 2006 demonstrated this myopia when we complain about the illegals. Federal agents were invited into Nebraska to sweep illegals from meat processing plants. Federal sweep was so successful that the region suffered a massive economic downturn. The Feds were strongly invited to leave so that the illegals would come back.

The greedy meat packing plants hired a raft of cheap illegals to boost their profits in violation of Federal law, and when they got caught red handed, all of a sudden they are short handed. Boo hoo for them, they deserve much worse.
So we should let the robber barons have their way? Go back a hundred years in human and workers rights? Going back to the days when people didn't know if they would still be employed at the end of the day? Jobs weren't made any safer than would save the company money, which wasn't much, because there's plenty of cheap labor waiting outside the door if you get killed on the job? Back to the days when if you get sick and miss a day, you are permanently replaced? Fuck that shit.

As if the lessons of prohibition can be forgotten, suddenly we blame porous borders. More bull by those who only know because they can shit?

Your slinging bull. The lesson of prohibition is that the government can't stop the people from something if they want it. The war on drugs proves it all over again. None of that applies to this situation because the people don't want illegals running around the country. Even the ones that want them here want the government to know who they are. Only an idiot would want anyone that feels like it, waltzing across the border unchecked.

In the Silicon Valley, ICs are important. That's not integrated circuits. ICs now account for more than 50% of the employees: Indians and Chinese. Even there, H1-B government approval has been limited by stupid laws causing some companies to move operations out of America. More immigration problems solved - by driving businesses out of the country. Blame those evil Indians and Chinese by passing more legal restrictions.

Substitute cheap labor for ICs. The robber barons are international and China is subcontracting to Africa for cheaper labor. They will work real cheap and hopefully their mud hut won't wash away next time it rains. But hey, it's a step up from cardboard, so they should be grateful.
tw & co, want the US to be a third world country, figuring engineers will be OK, and maybe even respected. If they succeed they are more likely to be lynched.

Illegal immigration problem only exist where wacko extremist wants to blame the people and not blame draconian and myopically inspired laws. 29,000 visas for an industry that needs 1.8 million immigrants? That is justification for blaming those immigrants.

See UG is wrong, you're not a communist, you're an anarchist. The law is strangling business, don't change the law, just let everybody do what they damn well please. Ignore laws that cut into the robber barons profits. One bad quarter and they'll have to exercise that multi-million dollar golden parachute. Oh, the humanity

Pass a law that bans kissing anyone named Monica. That will solve all sex problems - in the same spirite of current immigration laws.

Careful there, it's the dry season and that strawman might burst into flames.

Only problem with illegal immigrants are those who know answers by denying the real problem - the law.

No the only real problem is people disregarding the law instead of changing it. It's too easy for that to become a habit... drivers license, insurance, good tires and brakes, he doesn't, why should I?

From outside the country, everything would appear confusing. They are not us. Therefore they must be evil. Ban them from the country. 29,000 visas for an industry that needs to employ 1.8 million immigrants. Therefore the law could never be wrong.

Change the law if it doesn't work. Are you trying to convince me the robber barons don't have the suck to do that? Bullshit. They want the illegals to be illegal so they can turn back the clock 100 years and they've got you shilling for them. They love employees they can harrass and intimidate, employees that can't say shit or they'll be turned in.

piercehawkeye45;347387 wrote:

snip~ I wouldn't say that. Just because all of our modern way of changing things in other countries has bitten us in the ass doesn't mean that if we do it right, it can't perform miracles. The biggest problem we've had is that we try to force other countries to our way of thinking and do to take matters into our own hands.

Yes, aiding will help many countries but unilaterally deciding another country has to change is pretty arrogant.

We can't forget how well the Marshall Plan did for European countries after WWII. There are ways of helping countries get out of poverty, but we just haven't been exercising them lately.

Well, the Marshall plan took the ashes of Europe and reconstructed it in our own image. Whether that was best for the people there is up for debate. Sure it made them economically successful but what was the social and cultural cost?

xoxoxoBruce;347403 wrote:

Sure it made them economically successful but what was the social and cultural cost?

Very expensive, as it has been for our social, health, and judicial systems.

xoxoxoBruce;347403 wrote:

Sure it made them economically successful but what was the social and cultural cost?

No matter what they do their culture will most likely be lost. Its sad but it has happened to basically every first-world country that exists today.

TheMercenary;347469 wrote:

Very expensive, as it has been for our social, health, and judicial systems.

What does that have to do with the Marshall Plan?

Brianna;346738 wrote:

That's a big part of our charm, duck. When do you go away again? I can't wait.

Please don't blame me because your nation is too lazy or decadent to deal with your current invasion problem.

duck_duck;347668 wrote:

Please don't blame me because your nation is too lazy or decadent to deal with your current invasion problem.

Oh shiiiiet, my nemesis is back!

Forever fighting against American policies forever, duck_duck! :D
Where've you been?

Hahaha, and there she goes using "your nation" against us Americans. Vintage ducky.
Relating to the current issue of the thread of amnesty, I'm not really sure or enlightened enough to generate a good response.

duck_duck;346703 wrote:

Everything americans do is confusing so why is this different? Half of you think it is acceptable to be invaded and the other half does not.

Well if you had half a brain you would realize that only half of America is confusing. Since independent thought is not permitted in your country, I can understand your difficulty in grasping the concept that reasonable citizens can disagree on complex issues. Or maybe its the complexity that your single-track mind can't navigate.

duck_duck;346703 wrote:

Please don't blame me because your nation is too lazy or decadent to deal with your current invasion problem.

We are neither lazy nor decadent as the more enlightened of your Chinese countrymen who sacrifice everything to come to America can attest. But, being born with a silver chopstick up your ass, I wouldn't expect you to understand that either.

Lazy? That is why other nations are always coming to us with their hands out?
Yeah, WE are the lazy ones?
LMAO!!!!

Yeah it's been proven ducky that America is DEFINITELY the hardest working, overworked country in the world.

And, where were you guys when I was dueling her in the VT gun thread? The fudge was my American support?

xoxoxoBruce;347402 wrote:

You still don't think the ones not working for cash, are too stupid to fill out a W-4 form with a bunch of dependents, so they not only don't have to apply for a refund they end up delinquent before they move on.

Bruce forgets one cannot even hire a nanny without filing those forms. The illegal immigrants we are discussing - this large majority who hold full time or other jobs that require SS numbers and withholding - do file W-4 forms. As long as those forms can be filed, then these illegal immigrants have jobs.

How were they finding so many illegals? Look for all the invented or borrowed SS numbers. Why? Bruce assumes they are all working only for cash. Business cannot do that and have employees. Even where ever I consult, they still want those numbers and forms. I may only do a job for a couple of weeks. They still want those numbers and forms - just like they want from their immigrant workers.

What happens to all that withheld pay? Nobody files to reclaim it. And so we have a problem with amnesty. Suddenly massive amounts of government tax dollars can be refunded to millions of workers.

The one requirement every employer has when he inadvertantly hires illegal immigrants. They must provide SS numbers and forms for the withholding - in direct opposition to what Bruce has posted. Yes, there are exceptions. But those exceptions are not the millions of workers who work illegally and make America greater.

Beestie;347679 wrote:

Well if you had half a brain you would realize that only half of America is confusing. Since independent thought is not permitted in your country, I can understand your difficulty in grasping the concept that reasonable citizens can disagree on complex issues. Or maybe its the complexity that your single-track mind can't navigate.

We are neither lazy nor decadent as the more enlightened of your Chinese countrymen who sacrifice everything to come to America can attest. But, being born with a silver chopstick up your ass, I wouldn't expect you to understand that either.

Nice but you still do nothing about being invaded. You argue about it while more rush across your borders. Wake up! Quit trying to pretend to be intellectual and do something already.

freshnesschronic;347684 wrote:

Yeah it's been proven ducky that America is DEFINITELY the hardest working, overworked country in the world.

And, where were you guys when I was dueling her in the VT gun thread? The fudge was my American support?

You can't even defend yourselves anymore so what are you now?

tw;347690 wrote:

Bruce forgets one cannot even hire a nanny without filing those forms. The illegal immigrants we are discussing - this large majority who hold full time or other jobs that require SS numbers and withholding - do file W-4 forms. As long as those forms can be filed, then these illegal immigrants have jobs.

tw forgets that the W-4 form determines the amount of taxes taken out of each paycheck. If you lie about the number of dependents, when you file your taxes, the government wants proof of those deductions. No proof = fraud = the IRS up your butt forever. But tw claims these illegals are overpaying because they can't file for a refund. That means tw feels these illegals are too stupid to overstate the number of dependents on the W-4 to lower the tax bite, knowing they can't file anyway. How arrogant.

How were they finding so many illegals? Look for all the invented or borrowed SS numbers. Why? Bruce assumes they are all working only for cash. Business cannot do that and have employees. Even where ever I consult, they still want those numbers and forms. I may only do a job for a couple of weeks. They still want those numbers and forms - just like they want from their immigrant workers.

tw claims I assume all the illegals are working for cash because he can't read for comprehension when I actually said;

You still don't think [COLOR="DarkOrchid"]the ones not working for cash[/COLOR], are too stupid to fill out a W-4 form with a bunch of dependents, so they not only don't have to apply for a refund they end up delinquent before they move on.

in post #27.

tw also claims that all illegals have to provide a SS number and fill out a W-4, for every job, because he does for his consulting. Of course tw is being engaged as an independent, self employed, contractor (think company) which most likely pays at least ten times the hourly rate these illegals are earning (think employee) for actually doing some work.
tw needs an MBA to straighten out his warped perspective.

What happens to all that withheld pay? Nobody files to reclaim it. And so we have a problem with amnesty. Suddenly massive amounts of government tax dollars can be refunded to millions of workers.

Aw fer Pete's sake, do you take us for idiots? Do you file to reclaim the taxes withheld from your pay? Do they give it to you? They keep mine along with everyone else's, unless we happen to give them a little too much. Since you have trouble with comprehension, once more, they don't give the government money that would be refunded if they were legal. They are NOT leaving claimable monies unclaimed. That is a complete and utter myth. And if you keep repeating it, knowing it's bullshit, it becomes a lie.

The one requirement every employer has when he inadvertantly hires illegal immigrants. They must provide SS numbers and forms for the withholding - in direct opposition to what Bruce has posted. Yes, there are exceptions. But those exceptions are not the millions of workers who work illegally and make America greater.

Now tw claims I said they don't fill out the W-4 forms, which is an outright lie, unless he didn't read my numerous posts in this and other threads describing how they can manipulate the W-4 forms.
I'm inclined to believe he's not lying, he just responds with his horseshit, without reading any other posts.

But that said, if you have any questions on power supplies, tw's your man.
Tell him Nixon sent you.

duck_duck;347705 wrote:

Nice but you still do nothing about being invaded.

Define invaded.

Don't mind her, she's got the rag on.

xoxoxoBruce;347732 wrote:

Don't mind her, she's got the rag on.

She's got the 25 hours-a-day/eight-days-a-week/366-days a year rag on.

and the chinese---let's see---all those human rights violations against their own people. Yeah, nice. Great place. Go back, duck, quick-quick, like a good girl.

duck duck isn't from China. She's from Hong Kong.

duck_duck;347668 wrote:

Please don't blame me because your nation is too lazy or decadent to deal with your current invasion problem.

I could use a little lazy and decadent right now. :yelsick:

DanaC;347756 wrote:

duck duck isn't from China. She's from Hong Kong.

You don't own it anymore, China does, which I'm sure you know. They've decided it's in their interest to keep it as a decadent, westernized, tool. That, however, could be revoked in a heartbeat, because they own it lock, stock and barrel.

piercehawkeye45;347537 wrote:

What does that have to do with the Marshall Plan?

What does the Marshall Plan have to do with our current situation?

NoBoxes;347165 wrote:

Eventually a movie will be made about this and it will be called ... The Amnestyville Horror. :worried:

lol :lol:

Why don't we just let car thieves just use the cars after a while... perhaps just charge them a fine? I mean, if they are going to be driving them to work and all, why not?

tw wrote:

Even where ever I consult, they still want those numbers and forms. I may only do a job for a couple of weeks. They still want those numbers and forms - just like they want from their immigrant workers.

You live in a dream world. On a more concrete note, you live nowhere near the Mexican border.

The illegal immigrants that everyone is arguing over are not consulting for engineering firms. They are installing insulation and cutting hedges and painting buildings. And yes, they are paid in cash, both by small business owners and by individuals. I have personally hired a total of five people I strongly suspect to be illegal immigrants to do work for me on 3 different occasions that I can think of in just the last year. I paid cash. They don't really work any cheaper than the American laborers, the only difference is they don't have a general contractor standing in between us taking a cut.

Clodfobble;347958 wrote:

You live in a dream world. On a more concrete note, you live nowhere near the Mexican border.

Those who hate illegal immigrants must now condemn you with same vigor. You have done things illegal. In the eyes of those who fear immigrants, you are now no different than those immigrants. Both have violated 'the laws'.

Shame on you for so hating America as to pay them in cash - according to the same logic used to hate illegal immigrants.

Or maybe illegal immigrants were never the problem. Problem is found in laws that have little relationship to reality. Reality - we need those immigrants by the millions - both in labors from Latin America, students from the Middle East, AND the many from India and China in the Silicon Valley. What do some of us advocate? Hate them all even thought 'they' are more important to America's future than many current Americans. Send them back where they come from. Screw free market principles. Screw those who would otherwise make America so productive. That is Bruce's reasoning.

Makes no difference if the worker is a corporate worker, engineer, hedge trimmer, or a nanny. If they are employed, then the employer must collect government paper work - or also be illegal. Bruce, et al conveniently forget that to justify hate of immigrants.

I have no problem with Clodfobble paying regular employees in cash. But those with a draconian allegiance to laws must now hate you for acting in the tradition of free markets - hiring anyone and paying them in cash. "Because it is the law" justifies hate of immigrants. The law is so screwed up that we need 1.8 mllion illegals just for agriculture. And millions more for installing insulation and cutting hedges and painting buildings. The solution? Fix the laws and ignore the hate promoted by Bruce.

So what is this dream world? It is also called reality. The only way a regular employee can be paid in cash - no withholding or no government filings - is when the employer is also acting illegal. Even homeowners with nannies must file government tax forms for that employee - if all laws must be imposed and justify Bruce's draconian attitude.

Where illegals are employed regularly, then taxes are withheld. Where illegals are not paying taxes, well, we only have stupid laws (and those who love those stupid laws) for creating that problem. In every case, its not the illegal immigrants that are the problem. The problem are so many who just hate immigrants and the hide behind phony reasoning such as "because it is the law". More important should be "because we need them". Anything less is the 'dream world' reasoning that Bruce is posting.

Drive out the illegal immigrants - and the local economy goes recessionary. Why? Those illegals represent a most productive part of America's economy and the source of America's most productive future workers.

Why do we not let car thieves use the cars? Because unlike illegal immigrants, car thieves are not some of America's most productive workers and most important for America's future.

How do you know who car thieves are? Perhaps they need it to get to work.
I love how obeying the law is draconian... too funny.

skysidhe;346656 wrote:

I am confused about this bill that is going to pass the Senate.
I have alot of questions. Please comment on your vote. Thank you

Lots of questions about this bill.

How will this bill be implemented?

---if given legal status, how will we know that they are really who they say they are, even if they have to provide a birth certificate which many will not have or produce? What does “legal status” mean?

—most of them have used fraudulent documents, some stolen, doesn’t this make them a felon and will they be pardoned or forgiven?

—how will a background check be done and what will be credible if we do not know who they really are. What will happen those who do not pass the background check, will they be deported and “separated from their families?” I am sure that their home countries will not cooperate.

—national ID care will not be credible.

—tax invasion is a crime, will those who owe back taxes be pardoned and forgiven and how will it be determined how much taxes is owe and by whom?

—if the cut-off date is 5 years, what is going to happen to them, deportation?

–-the $5,000 fine will never happen because down the line it will be disposed of.

This is going to be a nightmare to implement.
I got the feeling that many will not come out of the “shadows.”
If it can be implemented, it will not be easy and it is not going to be credible.
I don’t see how it will pass. But with corporate American owning our government it very well might.
The senate has a lot of debating to do for it to get to the house and Palosi is not comfortable with it and neither are many democrats and republicans.


I just heard Carlos Gueiterrez say the cut off date to qualify for the “Z Visa” is January1, 2007. The date keep going up. What will happen to those who come in after Jan 1,2007? Will they be rounded up and deported? And what will happen to those who do not pass the background check. They will not come forward out of the shadows. Will we have to look for them and when they are found, what will we do with them.. This can become expensive for the tax payer.
It would be so much easier and cheaper if we just go after the employer that hire them and stop them for hiring illegals. They will go home or immigrate elsewhere.

bluecuracao;346663 wrote:

Well, the bill doesn't involve amnesty for one thing. There's a large fine proposed, along with a few other things. What are your questions?

Legal status is instant amnesty. Legal status means they will have all the rights and benefits as a citizen.
$5,000 is not a fine. Citizenship is not for sale and there is only one way to get it and they is by following the same laws that every one else does.
They have 8 years to pay the fine. Back taxes is forgiven. Why would they want citizenship if they already have legal status?
Nothing will happen if this bill is passed but amnesty through legal status. We will never see the fine implemented, work place enforcement or the border secure.
It did not happen in 1986. Why would we believe it would happen today.
This bill will never pass with a so called path to citizenshp.
There is not one set of laws for one group of people and another set for another. We all play by the same rules.

I'm curious--what is your definition of a fine, halley?

According to the bill, it would be a fine. There would be no "instant amnesty;" temporary legal status would only be obtained by acknowledgement of law-breaking and paying a $1000 fine, and passing a background check.

tw;348010 wrote:

snip~
Screw those who would otherwise make America so productive. That is Bruce's reasoning.

tw lies. That is neither what I think or what I wrote. Bring in what we need, but DOCUMENT them. Is that so fucking hard to comprehend?

Makes no difference if the worker is a corporate worker, engineer, hedge trimmer, or a nanny. If they are employed, then the employer must collect government paper work - or also be illegal. Bruce, et al conveniently forget that to justify hate of immigrants.

Earth to tw, you are stating what the rules are, which are routinely ignored. If they all followed the rules, they wouldn't be here in the first place. And stick the hate card up your ass, it is not your prerogative to tell me who I hate.

Fix the laws and ignore the hate promoted by Bruce.

Hey, what did I tell you about that? Strike two.

So what is this dream world? It is also called reality. The only way a regular employee can be paid in cash - no withholding or no government filings - is when the employer is also acting illegal. Even homeowners with nannies must file government tax forms for that employee - if all laws must be imposed and justify Bruce's draconian attitude.

Bruce - tw, I'm taking your car... and your wallet.
tw - But, but, (17 paragraphs/Nixon/Vietnam/mental midget) it's against the law!
Bruce - Don't be so draconian. After all, your stuff isn't something important... like the country.

Where illegals are employed regularly, then taxes are withheld. Where illegals are not paying taxes, well, we only have stupid laws (and those who love those stupid laws) for creating that problem.

Yeah, I'm not paying any more taxes, because it's a stupid law.

In every case, its not the illegal immigrants that are the problem. The problem are so many who just hate immigrants and the hide behind phony reasoning such as "because it is the law". More important should be "because we need them". Anything less is the 'dream world' reasoning that Bruce is posting.

The only thing phony is you, and your 'dream world', where if the law is inconvenient just ignore it. Don't bother to change the law to a better one, we can trust everyone to only ignore laws that are stupid. Sure Tinkerbell, you and Peter come back and visit sometime.

Drive out the illegal immigrants - and the local economy goes recessionary. Why? Those illegals represent a most productive part of America's economy and the source of America's most productive future workers.

I'd be pretty productive, if I had to work under 1907 conditions, where the bossman has my balls in his vest pocket. And I'm not sure if I'll get them back and the end of the day. No, your name is not Jose, it's Toby now.

Why do we not let car thieves use the cars? Because unlike illegal immigrants, car thieves are not some of America's most productive workers and most important for America's future.

Don't worry about the car thieves, they are allowed to ignore any laws they feel are stupid.

When a Nation of Laws, selectively enforces those Laws for corporate gains, the rest of the nation will follow suit in losing all respect for the law. Then, no longer ruled by law, what will fill that void? A King? A dictator? Your crazy Uncle tw? You better hope not.

tw;348010 wrote:

Those who hate illegal immigrants must now condemn you with same vigor. You have done things illegal. In the eyes of those who fear immigrants, you are now no different than those immigrants. Both have violated 'the laws'.

Shame on you for so hating America as to pay them in cash - according to the same logic used to hate illegal immigrants.

Or maybe illegal immigrants were never the problem. Problem is found in laws that have little relationship to reality. Reality - we need those immigrants by the millions - both in labors from Latin America, students from the Middle East, AND the many from India and China in the Silicon Valley. What do some of us advocate? Hate them all even thought 'they' are more important to America's future than many current Americans. Send them back where they come from. Screw free market principles. Screw those who would otherwise make America so productive. That is Bruce's reasoning.

Makes no difference if the worker is a corporate worker, engineer, hedge trimmer, or a nanny. If they are employed, then the employer must collect government paper work - or also be illegal. Bruce, et al conveniently forget that to justify hate of immigrants.

I have no problem with Clodfobble paying regular employees in cash. But those with a draconian allegiance to laws must now hate you for acting in the tradition of free markets - hiring anyone and paying them in cash. "Because it is the law" justifies hate of immigrants. The law is so screwed up that we need 1.8 mllion illegals just for agriculture. And millions more for installing insulation and cutting hedges and painting buildings. The solution? Fix the laws and ignore the hate promoted by Bruce.

So what is this dream world? It is also called reality. The only way a regular employee can be paid in cash - no withholding or no government filings - is when the employer is also acting illegal. Even homeowners with nannies must file government tax forms for that employee - if all laws must be imposed and justify Bruce's draconian attitude.

Where illegals are employed regularly, then taxes are withheld. Where illegals are not paying taxes, well, we only have stupid laws (and those who love those stupid laws) for creating that problem. In every case, its not the illegal immigrants that are the problem. The problem are so many who just hate immigrants and the hide behind phony reasoning such as "because it is the law". More important should be "because we need them". Anything less is the 'dream world' reasoning that Bruce is posting.

Drive out the illegal immigrants - and the local economy goes recessionary. Why? Those illegals represent a most productive part of America's economy and the source of America's most productive future workers.

Why do we not let car thieves use the cars? Because unlike illegal immigrants, car thieves are not some of America's most productive workers and most important for America's future.

What planet are you from tw? You really do believe this tripe. The only thing I can figure out is that you are either an illegal, the child of an illegal, or are making money on the back of illegals and are fearful of our country finally getting a handle around this problem and regulating the flow of people across our currently pourous borders. Those illegals do not represent the productive part of our economy and there is no way for you to back up such assertions. The only way they could be a source of future workers is if they brought over their illegal wife's and girlfriends and made more babies to tax our health care system with. What? wait 16 years as they are on the dole raising their spawn, paying for their health care and educating them on the back of our tax system? The hard earned tax dollars of those with legit jobs are paying for all of this, not the tiny bit they contribute buying IPods and other goodies as a sales tax. There is no way at their income level that collectively they contribute enough to our tax system to pay for the costs associated with paying for their health care, their educations, and the cost to house them in our jails when they screw up. You truely live in a fantasy world there tw...:sniff:

TheMercenary;347887 wrote:

What does the Marshall Plan have to do with our current situation?

We loan out money and help in other ways to jumpstart the Mexican and Central and South American economy.

It is one way that we might be able to solve the immigration problem and help our neighbors while we're at it.


Also, Americans are as hard-working as ever. The idea that Americans are lazy come from misleading statistics, hollywood, and a way to motivate people to work harder for less money. Everyone I work with except me and a 70+ year guy has two jobs.

piercehawkeye45;348601 wrote:

We loan out money and help in other ways to jumpstart the Mexican and Central and South American economy.

It is one way that we might be able to solve the immigration problem and help our neighbors while we're at it.


Also, Americans are as hard-working as ever. The idea that Americans are lazy come from misleading statistics, hollywood, and a way to motivate people to work harder for less money. Everyone I work with except me and a 70+ year guy has two jobs.

The Marshall Plan was a post -WW2 reconstruction plan for a war torn society of Europe. I don't think we need to more more US Tax payer money down the pit of third world countries to prop up their economies when that money could be spent better here at home on our own social programs and border security. The first idea would be just another failed crap shoot, the later is more secure.

How is Mexico our problem?

If it wasn't, we wouldn't have this thread.

Oh, illegals are our problem and THAT needs dealing with, DIRECTLY.
But, that is for all illegals, not just one nation's.

Illegals aren't a problem that can be fixed on just one side of the border, and most illegals are from, or come through, Mexico.

TheMercenary;348352 wrote:

What planet are you from tw? You really do believe this tripe. The only thing I can figure out is that you are either an illegal, the child of an illegal, or are making money on the back of illegals and are fearful of our country finally getting a handle around this problem and regulating the flow of people across our currently pourous borders. Those illegals do not represent the productive part of our economy and there is no way for you to back up such assertions.

The fact was stated just so that those who know using political agendas (rather than facts) would respond. Throughout the world, the most productive economies are those who import and employ immigrants. And the most productive person is typically the third generation immigrant. Who are the lazy bastards on the dole? Mostly the lazy citizens who also worry more about their rights than their responsiblities.

The most productive people in a nation are its immigrants. Why are most American engineers (more than 50%) now immigrants and foreigners? It says much about Americans who believed Barbie: "Math is hard". George Jr also uses that work harrrd also as an excuse. Immigrants instead do the work. And TheMercenary makes accusations because he never bothered to learn basic facts - such as regional recessions created by a major crackdown on illegal immigrants.

I have no problem with immigrants. Everyone tends to be a better worker. Many can even understand the math I might be working on. It is the legacy Americans - those from a long line of American citizens - who tend to be more lazy and are lesser educated. But that last part is only my observation. Facts are that immigrant children are among the most productive Americans.

piercehawkeye45;348601 wrote:

We loan out money and help in other ways to jumpstart the Mexican and Central and South American economy.

It is one way that we might be able to solve the immigration problem and help our neighbors while we're at it.

Easier said than done. Money won't do it, the Mexican oil industry proved that when the huge windfall was sucked up by corruption with no improvement for the masses.

Sending them jobs won't help. NAFTA was supposed to help them but it only exported jobs without helping the average Mexican.

The only way Mexico is going to get 'jumpstarted' is reform and short of invasion, we can't do it for them.

I know, I am not trying to claim that this is the solution but that we should be looking in this direction for a possible solution. I was using the Marshall Plan as an example on how we can make change in other countries in a positive way.

The best thing I can think an individual can do is microfinance.

For our country as a whole, assuming we decide to help, is much more complicated because it needs to be a plan that will go through without corruption which is almost laughable.

In order to implement a Mexican Marshall Plan we have to first win a war. Hmmmm

Did you read what I said? I used the Marshall Plan as an example on how something like that could work, I am not saying we actually bring it back.

Hello, did you read what I wrote? There is nothing we can do for Mexico without invading and changing their whole system.

tw;348756 wrote:

The fact was stated just so that those who know using political agendas (rather than facts) would respond. Throughout the world, the most productive economies are those who import and employ immigrants. And the most productive person is typically the third generation immigrant. Who are the lazy bastards on the dole? Mostly the lazy citizens who also worry more about their rights than their responsiblities.

The most productive people in a nation are its immigrants. Why are most American engineers (more than 50%) now immigrants and foreigners? It says much about Americans who believed Barbie: "Math is hard". George Jr also uses that work harrrd also as an excuse. Immigrants instead do the work. And TheMercenary makes accusations because he never bothered to learn basic facts - such as regional recessions created by a major crackdown on illegal immigrants.

I have no problem with immigrants. Everyone tends to be a better worker. Many can even understand the math I might be working on. It is the legacy Americans - those from a long line of American citizens - who tend to be more lazy and are lesser educated. But that last part is only my observation. Facts are that immigrant children are among the most productive Americans.

Be clear, I have no problem with immigrants either... legal ones. My problem is with illegal ones. I am pro-LEGAL immigration, through current legal processes, applications, and processing.

Did anyone here about the town in California-go figure-that is offering sanctuary to illegals? They actually stopped their DUI traffic sites because they were catching too many illegals. Eventually, they shut down more things because too many illegals were involved. So, if we let them break one law, we have to let them break many more. What don't we understand about "ILLEGAL?" This is killing the U.S. Bush needs out.
We need Tom Tancredo to clean up the mess. Bush and the Dems are selling us all out for diversity. What happened to being an American, not a black American, or latino American, or this or that type of American, but just an American. Diversity sucks when it comes to the culture of a nation.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/newsom.asp

The animals pictured below; car-jacked, then raped Christopher Newsom, cut off his penis, then set him on fire and fatally shot him several times while they forced his girlfriend, Channon Christian, to watch. An even more cruel fate awaited her!

Channon Christian, was beaten and gang-raped in many ways for four days by all of them, while they took turns urinating on her. Then they cut off her breast and put chemicals in her mouth ... and then murdered her.

Dozens of New Charges in Double Murder Case Announced
Posted: 5:05 PM Feb 1, 2007. Last Updated: 11:40 AM Feb 8, 2007.
Reporter: Whitney Daniel, WVLT Staff

Knoxville (WVLT) - The District Attorney General of Knox
County announced the list of charges facing now five suspects in the double murder of Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom.

The District Attorney General Randy Nichols is not saying whether or not he will seek the death penalty, but he does say the State will seek conviction for all charges filed in a 24-page indictment from the Knox County Grand Jury.

Lemaricus Davidson, 25, faces a total of 46 charges. Davidson was indicted on 16 counts of Felony Murder growing out of rape, robbery kidnapping and theft of Channon Christian and Chris Newsom, 2 counts premeditated murder of Christian and Newsom, 2 counts especially aggravated robberies from Christian and Newsom, 4 counts especially aggravated kidnapping of Christian and Newsom, 20 counts aggravated rape of Christian and Newsom, and 2 counts of theft from Christian and Newsom.

Letalvis Cobbins, 24, faces a total of 46 charges. Cobbins was indicted on 16 counts of Felony Murder growing out of rape, robbery kidnapping and theft of Channon Christian and Chris Newsom, 2 counts premeditated murder of Christian and Newsom, 2 counts especially aggravated robberies from Christian and Newsom, 4 counts especially aggravated k! idnappi ng of Christian and Newsom, 20 counts aggravated rape of Christian and Newsom, and 2 counts of theft from Christian and Newsom.

George Thomas, 24, faces a total of 46 charges. Thomas was indicted on 16 counts of Felony Murder growing out of rape, robbery kidnapping and theft of Channon Christian and Chris Newsom, 2 counts premeditated murder of Christian and Newsom, 2 counts especially aggravated robberies from Christian and Newsom, 4 counts especially aggravated kidnapping of Christian and Newsom, 20 counts aggravated rape of Christian and Newsom, and 2 counts of theft from Christian and Newsom.

Just last night, police in Lebanon , Kentucky , arrested 18-year-old Vanessa Coleman. She faces 40 Tennessee state charges. Coleman was indicted on 12 counts Felony Murder growing out of rape, robbery kidnapping and theft of Channon Christian and Chris Newsom, 1 count Premeditated Murder of Christian only, 1 count Especially Aggravated Robbery of Newsom only, 4 counts especially aggravated
kidnapping of Christia n and Newsom, 20 counts of aggravated rape of Christian and Newsom and 2 Counts of theft from Christian and Newsom.

Eric Boyd, 24, also arrested in connection with the fatal carjacking, only faces federal charges as an accessory after the fact. He was not indicted by Knox county grand jury.

Felony Murder carries a possibility of death, life without the possibility of parole and life with parole. Especially Aggravated Robbery is a Class A felony that carries a possibility of 15 to 60 years in prison. Aggravated Rape is a Class A felony that carries a possibility of 15 to 60 years of prison.

At a news conference Thursday, Nichols commended the cooperative efforts between several departments and credits that cooperation for the fast pace this case is moving through the court system.

Nichols says he hopes to move the case to trial on the first day it's set.

The four are expected to make their first court appearance within ten to fifteen days.

This is certainly a case garnering a lot of public interest, Nichols recognizes that and says he expects all kinds of requests filed in this case, including a change of venue in order to receive a fair trial. But he says he does hope 12 Knox County jurors will be able to determine the guilt or innocence of these suspects.


Where be the Revs Al and Jesse? Are they providing counsel and help to the families of the victims?

Of course not - the victims were white

Why hasn't this received National coverage by the news media like the Duke "rape" case?

Oh, that's right - the victims were white

Why hasn't the NAACP, ACLU, New York Times etc., called for an investigation?

Must be cause the victims were white

Why hasn't the FBI been called in to investigate this as a hate crime?
Oh, t hat's right - the victims were white"


victims




perps



So, if a white news radio jock uses the phrase "Nappy headed", it gets 2 weeks of constant news coverage.



If two white people are tortured, raped, and murdered by a group of black people, it barely gets a blip in the news.



Pass this around, and maybe, just maybe, it will land in the hands of someone in the media or politics, that has the b???s to stand up for the white people!!!



This happened on Jan, 6, 2007 at Knoxville, Tenn..

http://www.snopes.com/politics/crime/newsom.asp

TheMercenary;348911 wrote:

Be clear, I have no problem with immigrants either... legal ones. My problem is with illegal ones. I am pro-LEGAL immigration, through current legal processes, applications, and processing.

The only immigration problem we have is due to draconian laws. 1.8 million immigrants needed just for agriculture. Only 29,000 visa permited due to stupid laws.

What did 1770 American do when tax laws were stupid? They openly committed crimes. We call those people "great and patriotic Americans". Why? Because only the laws were to blame. Do we become smart - or be so stupid as to demand enforcement of rediculous laws?

American immigration laws are the problem. Illegal immigrants are simply the symptom of stupid laws that are just as stupid as prohibition. We need them and they need the work. That does not change whether laws make them legal or illegal.

1.8 million needed? OK, why are there 10 times that here? Openly commiting crimes.


Welcome to the Cellar, TheEdge44. :D
Shame about your state not having an entrant in the Miss America contest, because none of the girls wanted to say....






Idaho.

tw;349006 wrote:

The only immigration problem we have is due to draconian laws. 1.8 million immigrants needed just for agriculture. Only 29,000 visa permited due to stupid laws.

What did 1770 American do when tax laws were stupid? They openly committed crimes. We call those people "great and patriotic Americans". Why? Because only the laws were to blame. Do we become smart - or be so stupid as to demand enforcement of rediculous laws?

American immigration laws are the problem. Illegal immigrants are simply the symptom of stupid laws that are just as stupid as prohibition. We need them and they need the work. That does not change whether laws make them legal or illegal.

Our laws are easier to navigate and more liberal the most in the world. Draconian? Not by a long-shot.

Our immigration laws may or may not be easier than in other countries, but the fact is, they're not working. I think if the laws were actually easier (and less draconian), they would work better.

If the laws had been enforced from the git go, they would have been updated as needed, and we wouldn't have this mess. This is what happens when the laws are just ignored and it becomes a free-for-all.

Exactly, and illegal is illegal, they, and those who help them, are criminals.

xoxoxoBruce;349389 wrote:

If the laws had been enforced from the git go, they would have been updated as needed, and we wouldn't have this mess. This is what happens when the laws are just ignored and it becomes a free-for-all.

They haven't been enforced (completely anyway), because they are unrealistic laws. There aren't, and never will be, adequate resources to enforce laws that try to go too far, just to keep otherwise law-abiding people out of the U.S.

I agree. My complaint is, instead of fixing laws that don't work, they just ignored them. Ignoring laws for one's own convenience is habit forming, and a very bad habit at that.

When everybody ignored the laws, they completely lost control of the border. The problem is not just Mexicans, but the people entering through Mexico.

Up until fairly recently, I don't think there's ever been much of an effort to control the border(s).

Exactly, everybody ignoring the law, looking the other way, caused this shit.

xoxoxoBruce;349825 wrote:

I agree. My complaint is, instead of fixing laws that don't work, they just ignored them.

Immigration laws have gone through quite a few changes over the years, in attempts to "fix" them, I guess. It seems to me, though, that whenever the Gov't tries to make them more restrictive, they are less effective.

rkzenrage;349768 wrote:

Exactly, and illegal is illegal, they, and those who help them, are criminals.

When 14 million people come over illegally I don't think it is a morality issue. They may be considered a criminal but to actually think most of them can not be good citizens except for the inital push here is foolish. They are being put in a lose lose situation and this is the best way to feed their families and give their kids the best chance in life.

piercehawkeye45;349847 wrote:

They are being put in a lose lose situation and this is the best way to feed their families and give their kids the best chance in life.

Not my problem or my responsibility.

It is now that they are crossing the border.

piercehawkeye45;349890 wrote:

It is now that they are crossing the border.

I have no responsibility to figure out to to take care of them, only how to kick them out, get them registered, and get them to pay income taxs on all the money they send home before they send it.

Theyre making less than minimum wage, mostly; you dont pay income tax on that anyway!

I guess you missed the thread on the ones in NYC sending home, after living expenses, $500 to $1000 a month. That ain't minimum wage.