Discrimination?
Is it discrimination and sexism to say that, in the dance unit for PE, you will get a worse grade for not dancing with the opposite sex, or simply be forced to pair with people of the opposite sex?
Nope.
Do you think it's discriminatory when they make you spell words the same way they appear in the dictionary?
No. It's dancing not sex.
Although dancing leads to sex.
It depends on what their reasoning is for it. At the least, it sounds like a silly rule to me.
Well as long as you both don't want to 'lead'... ;)
Why should a person have to dance with the opposite sex if they don't like the opposite sex?
And dont even get me started on 'The GUY has to lead, while the girl has to follow...' and all that shit.
Dancing doesnt have to be sexist; why does the school get to enforce a sexist code for dancing?
Schools shouldnt be able to discriminate by gender for any reason.
I remember when I was in school the girls often had to dance together because there was always an abundance of us.
I don't see what the challenge is really.
Did you ask the teacher why there's such a requirement? :confused:
Why should a person have to dance with the opposite sex if they don't like the opposite sex?
And dont even get me started on 'The GUY has to lead, while the girl has to follow...' and all that shit.
Dancing doesnt have to be sexist; why does the school get to enforce a sexist code for dancing?
Schools shouldnt be able to discriminate by gender for any reason.
Would you object if the partner the school picked for you was ugly?
The dance taught in schools should not be sexual. In a way you are bringing sex into it if you refuse and you are discriminating if you refuse.
But let's approach this practically. Say the school allowed people to dance with the partner of their choice. Then the "couples" would dance together, the single girls would dance together and the single boys would refuse. mostly. That's just the way it is. This rule is probably the most practical way for the school to get the stuff done. And for that reason, I wouldn't say it's discriminatory.
I might question why the school feels it's necessary to make paired dancing compulsory (as it sounds it is).
Would you claim it's discrimination if you are not allowed in the ladies locker room? Even if you have no interest in the girls? Would you think that their request that you not be allowed in unreasonable? Or discrimination? If so, I think you'd be in the minority.
Why should a person have to dance with the opposite sex if they don't like the opposite sex?
Because half the world is the other half, and you better learn to live in it. Dancing is a social skill (as well as a joy), and learning to live with your fellow people is what growing up and being a human is all about.
Don't be ridiculous. After all, they have to dance with
you. It's only
social intercourse.
If you are being graded on your ability to dance, the gender of who you dance with should not effect that grade. If it does, something is not right. If you were being graded on your ability to play basketball, would it matter which gender you played against?
Could, would, should. It's a damn high school, in China, you do what you're told. If you think high school sucks, wait till you get a whiff of the real world.
Jeez, bruce, cool it. I dont really mind dancing with the girls - notice my comment on the 'whats making you happy?'thread - but it bothers me that it's mandatory that you HAVE to dance with the opposite sex.
That's exactly what I was talking about, it's high school. They don't give a rats ass if you think it's fair. High school is not a democracy, so it doesn't matter if you like it or not. You do what you're told or pay the penalty. Simple as that.
High school is not a democracy
Right, so it's the perfect place for the rebellious amongst us to cut our teeth. :D
Is it discrimination and sexism to say that, in the dance unit for PE, you will get a worse grade for not dancing with the opposite sex, or simply be forced to pair with people of the opposite sex?
That's exactly what I was talking about, it's high school. They don't give a rats ass if you think it's fair. High school is not a democracy, so it doesn't matter if you like it or not. You do what you're told or pay the penalty. Simple as that.
His question is not whether he should do it or not, it is whether it is discrimination to get a lower grade?
Attitude is part of any class's grade. If you are not cooperating with your instructor, in any way, it is reasonable to assume you will get a lower grade.
I don't think it is discriminatory in PE because that is how the class is set-up. I don't like certain kinds of math, but I had to do it.
However, it is discrimination to disallow same sex couples to dance at school functions and the schools should be prosecuted for discrimination for interfering with them.
Who the kid's dance with is none of their business.
I think it's a pretty stupid rule. What harm is done by two dudes dancing together?
They offer dancing for gays in high school. They call it wrestling.
His question is not whether he should do it or not, it is whether it is discrimination to get a lower grade?
Duh, it doesn't matter, it's high school. You do what you are told or you pay the price, there's nothing new about that.
When you went to school, didn't you expect to get a lower grade if you didn't do what the teacher said he/she wanted you to do? There's no discrimination, EVERYONE has to do what they are told. You can't whine you're being discriminated against because you don't want to do what they say, that's bullshit.
Just because that's the way it is doesn't mean it's right does it? I mean that question to be considered from a philosophical viewpoint. For example, if we all rested on our laurels and said, "the way it is is good enough", would we still be living in caves? (metaphorically speaking of course. I recognise the right of those that don't believe in evolution to change that to habitation provided by God)
Duh, it doesn't matter, it's high school. You do what you are told or you pay the price, there's nothing new about that.
When you went to school, didn't you expect to get a lower grade if you didn't do what the teacher said he/she wanted you to do? There's no discrimination, EVERYONE has to do what they are told. You can't whine you're being discriminated against because you don't want to do what they say, that's bullshit.
Duh, so when black kids in Mississippi were forbidden to go to "white" schools, it was just school, it wasn't discrimination - according to your definition.
Would it be discrimination if the teacher made everyone dance with a partner of the same race, or suffer a lower grade?
They offer dancing for gays in high school. They call it wrestling.
What do they call it when I wrestle with your [insert loved female relative]? :boxers:
Duh, so when black kids in Mississippi were forbidden to go to "white" schools, it was just school, it wasn't discrimination - according to your definition.
This ain't gona be PC.
So you have years of knowledge about schools in the south? I went to school in the 50s. Black kids got the new schools, new books. No one asked us kids about shit.
Drop by and spend a few days with me and I'll show you just what you got for you tax money, if you pay any. :bolt:
There shouldn't be a problem if two guys or two girls want to dance with eachother. You should not force a gay person to dance with someone of the opposite sex just as you shouldn't force a straight person to dance with someone of the same sex. If you are forcing people to do one, you should do the other. If you are not willing to do one, do not expect everyone to do the other as well
Just because that's the way it is doesn't mean it's right does it? I mean that question to be considered from a philosophical viewpoint. For example, if we all rested on our laurels and said, "the way it is is good enough", would we still be living in caves? (metaphorically speaking of course. I recognise the right of those that don't believe in evolution to change that to habitation provided by God)
It's a moot point. High school is not a democracy, it's training. The inmates do not run the asylum.
Duh, so when black kids in Mississippi were forbidden to go to "white" schools, it was just school, it wasn't discrimination - according to your definition.
Would it be discrimination if the teacher made everyone dance with a partner of the same race, or suffer a lower grade?
that strawman has nothing to do with it, the class is not split. EVERYONE has to do the same thing... follow instructions or risk a lower grade.
Considering I'm paying large sums of mone-- er, considering youre paying large sums of money on my behalf to go to the school, I think I'm completely entitled to demand not to be discriminated against.
Horseshit, I pay large sums to keep the schools operating and I can't even go in and walk around. You are not being discriminated against until you have to do what others don't.
So by that argument, a gay marriage ban is not discriminatory.
That's complete and utter bullshit.
ewwww, I gotta dance with gurrls? They have cooties!
What are, you 8 years old?
Sorry, but this is just ridiculous. Be an adult and learn to be polite to the other half of the human race.
Yes it's discrimination. Yes it's a stupid rule. Yes it's a good thing to dance with the opp. sex just for the socialization skills, BUT it should be optional.
ewwww, I gotta dance with gurrls? They have cooties!
What are, you 8 years old?
Sorry, but this is just ridiculous. Be an adult and learn to be polite to the other half of the human race.
I've already been over this. I dont
personally have any problem dancing with girls as such - in fact, in my PE class, there're quite a few more girls I'd like to dance with than boys - but I think it's ridiculous and wrong to make it a RULE that you HAVE to dance with the opposite sex.
However, it is discrimination to disallow same sex couples to dance at school functions and the schools should be prosecuted for discrimination for interfering with them.
Frivolous Lawsuit Alert!
I've already been over this. I dont personally have any problem dancing with girls as such - in fact, in my PE class, there're quite a few more girls I'd like to dance with than boys - but I think it's ridiculous and wrong to make it a RULE that you HAVE to dance with the opposite sex.
I always thought it was a stupid irony that school is supposed to prepare you for life but goes out of it's way to make it the least like real life as possible.
I always thought it was a stupid irony that school is supposed to prepare you for life but goes out of it's way to make it the least like real life as possible.
Who said it's supposed to prepare you for life? It's supposed to give you basic knowledge that will make you useful to society and keep you someplace where your folks won't have to keep track of you until you're old enough to move into their basement.
I've already been over this. I dont personally have any problem dancing with girls as such - in fact, in my PE class, there're quite a few more girls I'd like to dance with than boys - but I think it's ridiculous and wrong to make it a RULE that you HAVE to dance with the opposite sex.
if you don't sound like an 8 year old boy, then you sound like a whining misogynist. Either way, it's a very unappealing quality. In my opinion, you should concentrate your efforts on getting along with people, rather than disruptive divisiveness.
I'm certainly extremely tired of hearing you snivel about it.
Why not take a different tack and learn to dance like a dream, and make everyone, male and female, squeal with happiness? Be a fabulous gay man who has better social skills than the clueless hets.
Who said it's supposed to prepare you for life? It's supposed to give you basic knowledge that will make you useful to society and keep you someplace where your folks won't have to keep track of you until you're old enough to move into their basement.
In that case it failed miserably. Most of what I know I learned AFTER school.
And anything I learned in school I forgot. I DO remember the humiliation and abuse though.
I like you Ibram (not that you need approval for anything, esp. my approval!- just sayin') but sometimes, just sometimes, it seems that you kinda like creating controversy where none exsists.
What if the school policy said this: " A student will dance with another student of a differing race or ethnic group. If student does not comply, student will have grade lowered by one letter grade"--? Would you feel upset about this?
if you don't sound like an 8 year old boy, then you sound like a whining misogynist. Either way, it's a very unappealing quality. In my opinion, you should concentrate your efforts on getting along with people, rather than disruptive divisiveness.
I'm certainly extremely tired of hearing you snivel about it.
Why not take a different tack and learn to dance like a dream, and make everyone, male and female, squeal with happiness? Be a fabulous gay man who has better social skills than the clueless hets.
I have to say, this post bugs me. Gay men shouldn't be expected to be "fabulous," and there is very little to be gained from it except for people's polite toleration, which IMO isn't really worth much. A person growing up in a society that does not provide him with the same basic civil rights as everyone else shouldn't be expected to just "get along" with people.
As to this particular issue, it is a stupid rule. As a dancer, I don't see dance as necessarily referring to sexual partnership -- for instance, one of the most famous tango pairs is a brother and sister -- but I believe that the policy itself is making that connection. If the person who made the rule saw no connection between dance and sex, then why would they need to specify the sex of the participants?
I think that this is an issue worth raising, to a certain extent, although not worth suing over or getting suspended for. Maybe an op-ed piece or letter in the school paper would be appropriate.
I don't want to speak for him, but my impression of Ibram's point is not "should I do this?" It's "is it discrimination?"
you're right, gay men shouldn't have to be "fabulous"--I don't believe that, but the comment was meant to be somewhat tongue in cheek antidote to his pathetic mysoginist whining.
Gay men SHOULD, however, learn to deal in social situations with women.
I don't want to speak for him, but my impression of Ibram's point is not "should I do this?" It's "is it discrimination?"
Okay. IMHO, it's not discrimination. It's like being resentful that you have to do your class project with someone you don't want to do it with--you just do it and move on.
Here's a little gem of truth: Life is a Shit Sandwich and you've only had a nibble.
xoBruce---was that little moral directed at me?
Gay men SHOULD, however, learn to deal in social situations with women.
I don't understand where you're coming from with this statement, Cloud. Is it because you think gay men in general are lacking in this particular social skill?
In my experience, the opposite is too often true--many straight people should learn to deal in social situations with gay men and women.
This stupid rule in Ibram's school may not seem like a big deal to most of you, especially if you're straight, because it seems "normal" to you,
from your perspective. But it's the wrong environment for kids who are discovering their true identities, and are forced to conform to rules that imply that they are "not normal." Actually, it's wrong for all kids, regardless of sexual identity, because they all are being taught the same message.
no, I don't think gay men lack social skills; that's far too general a statement. I think children lack social skills, however, and that's what is being taught here.
How about if the school "compromised" and stated that all straight students must dance with a gay student as well?
but wouldn't that force people to come out when they're not ready? Or even sure? We are talking teenagers here. And why make labels at all? Learning how to social dance is immaterial to your sexual orientation.
Then, they shouldn't give kids worse grades for not dancing with the opposite sex.
Okay. IMHO, it's not discrimination. It's like being resentful that you have to do your class project with someone you don't want to do it with--you just do it and move on.
Here's a little gem of truth: Life is a Shit Sandwich and you've only had a nibble.
But the more bread you have the less shit you taste.
xoBruce---was that little moral directed at me?
I don't know which one you are referring to but the only thing I have directed at you, no one can see but me.
Sure they should, because being uncooperative and disruptive means they are not learning the social skills which is the whole point of the class
Then, they shouldn't give kids worse grades for not dancing with the opposite sex.
Then if the teacher says draw a map of Germany and you draw a map of France because you're Jewish, you shouldn't get a lower grade. High School, follow orders or pay the price.
Frivolous Lawsuit Alert!
Would it be frivolous if they disallowed couples of different races or nationalities?
Sure they should, because being uncooperative and disruptive means they are not learning the social skills which is the whole point of the class
I don't think questioning the rules necessarily equals being uncooperative and disruptive--it's part of the learning process. And if the kids aren't given worse grades for not dancing with the opposite sex in the first place, then they're not even put in the position of having to question the rules.
Then if the teacher says draw a map of Germany and you draw a map of France because you're Jewish, you shouldn't get a lower grade. High School, follow orders or pay the price.
That's not a good comparison by any stretch. And I think you must have had a different high school experience than I had, and/or misinterpreted the "price."
Then if the teacher says draw a map of Germany and you draw a map of France because you're Jewish, you shouldn't get a lower grade. High School, follow orders or pay the price.
That's not his point. He's gonna dance with a girl. It's more like the teacher tells you to write the "N" word. You do it, but it's racist.
It's a moot point. High school is not a democracy, it's training. The inmates do not run the asylum.
They're not inmates. They're students. If they're in training and they're not allowed to ask questions, then does that mean they're in training to become clones?
Damn this thread has evolved.
I'll keep it simple.
The public schools (at least in the States) strip you of many of your civil rights. And there's nothing you can do about it. Just dance with a girl, I loved social dance in high school.
OK. Is it discrimination?
Are they giving you a lower grade because you danced with a partner of the same sex, or are they giving you a lower grade because you disobeyed the instruction to dance with a partner of the opposite sex?
If you're learning formal ballroom dancing, then your gender matters to how you dance. The man leads, the woman follows (yes yes, backwards and in heels, yadda yadda yadda.) As a man, learning to dance means learning to lead. If you dance with another man, either you or he is not learning the skill you are supposed to be learning.
They can easily take turns, whether it's girls or boys dancing together.
No, no, no. High School isn't about altering the things to accommodate individual preferences. High School is about learning, go along to get along so you'll be ready to kiss ass in the corporate world.
That said, it's not discrimination if everyone has the same orders.
Muahahaha...that's the price I paid then. Learning how to kiss corporate ass never took with me.
No, no, no. High School isn't about altering the things to accommodate individual preferences. High School is about learning, go along to get along so you'll be ready to kiss ass in the corporate world.
That said, it's not discrimination if everyone has the same orders.
Its this type of thinking that is killing American youth and turning them off of school. America school's are absolutely horrible and are only going to get worse because they make it boring so you can prepare for the "real world" instead of actually learning and making the material interesting.
It is pathetic.
Pathetic maybe, but not new. They've been that way for about 60 years. I believe it was the boomers flooding the system that started it and the rush to the burbs sealed the deal, for the cities and burbs.
Before WW II going to college was rare and if the job you were shooting for only required an 8th grade education that's when you quit school. Parents felt that was normal. Post war GI Bill parents saw education would bring more wealth and wanted their kids to go that route.
Child labor was more universally frowned upon in most areas and plus there was initially a shortage of jobs. Keep the kids in school through 12th grade and see if they could make the cut for college, buck up the local sports teams and keep them out from underfoot.
I personally think we should redo the education system to stop producing drones and start making free thinking individuals.
I personally think we should redo the education system to stop producing drones and start making free thinking individuals.
Ooh, Open School Time :D
[SIZE="1"](my kids go to an Open School)[/SIZE]
Open schools are great--I went to one for elementary school. I could never understand why more schools didn't use the same model.
I don't either. i have noticed that several of the local charter schools are adopting an open schooling approach.
Before WW II going to college was rare and if the job you were shooting for only required an 8th grade education that's when you quit school. Parents felt that was normal. .
I know you're not that old, so I'm not sure where you come up with this. Too sweeping a statement, perhaps. It certainly is not true for my family--both my parents (Mom, too), had college degrees before WWII. Perhaps they were in the minority, and I don't think it really makes much difference for the discussion here in the thread, but be careful of absolute statements.
There's no question that our school system sucks, though.
Yes, they were in the minority. Prior to the GI bill created a ton of college grads, the expense of college was far beyond most families unless the really set their mind to it and made sacrifices.
It was the exception, not the norm, partially because we didn't live in a technical society and there weren't that many jobs that required a college degree. Teaching, some scientific positions, lawyers, Doctors, maybe some accountants. Cities had separate High Schools for teaching trades, commerce and those headed for higher education.
By the late 50's all these grads had a dream of their children doing better and college became a more common goal. Tremendous leaps in technology meant more jobs for chemists, engineers, and scientists plus a surge in the number of lawyers and Doctors to service all the boomers.
By the time you get up to the eighties, companies wanted people they were going to train to have a bachelors degree before they would even consider them. There's a lot of college grads waiting tables and selling used cars
Yes I'm talking generalities and I can cite exceptions to, but I know I've got the trends right.
I'm confused. Are you the same Ibram who posted this in the why I'm happy today thread?
Dance in PE yesterday. First we did swing, which was fun - its impossible to be anything other than hyper and happy listening to swing - and then we waltzed, and I danced with the cutest girl in the entiiiire school.
Unfortunately, shes also the most in-love girl in the entire school - with the most popular kid in the grade.
Girls aren't so bad as dance partners anymore, eh?
I think it's discriminatory to refuse to dance with a partner of the opposite gender. Or the same gender.
Now, please, Louise, pull me up from my knees. I'm getting too old for this.
I'm confused. Are you the same Ibram who posted this in the why I'm happy today thread?
Girls aren't so bad as dance partners anymore, eh?
I think Ibram mentioned earlier in this thread that he had posted that, and that he enjoys dancing with girls.
The question is about the policy.
If at least 51% of the people are doing it then it's considered "normal".
That's the rumor, but I don't think he's getting any from either side, so it's tough to tell.
I'm not getting any from ANYONE, bruce, but I do know who I am and am not attracted to - and gender does not have any bearing on attraction for me.
I know, but as you gain more experience you may find your desire to form a close relationship, especially a physical one, shifting to one or the other rather than both.
Well I'll openly admit that, as a bi person, I favor women a bit over men...
This is about how it goes.
An ugly man is a lot uglier than an ugly woman.
A REALLY ugly man is not as ugly as a REALLY ugly woman.
An average man is worse-looking than an average woman.
A hot man is worse-looking than a hot woman.
A REALLY hot man is a lot hotter than a REALLY hot woman.
It's kinda complicated. The top tier of hotness is almost all men, but under it its all women for a long way.
And as for closeness and non-physical attraction, I also favor women - only because I think most men are simply assholes, too concerned with machismo and ridiculous shit like that.
It's not all that complicated, simply personal preference as to what you find attractive, in order of preference.
But when it comes to dealing with a personal and sexual relationship, (which I'll bet money you will eventually do), with another person, it's a different ballgame then attraction or even social friendship.
Trust me, it will get complicated when that special someone thrusts their hand into your chest, rips out your heart, dribbles it around the floor, then slam dunks it into a Cuisinart.
But anyway, you may find your attraction shifting one way or the other when it comes to relationships. Just hang loose and let nature take it's course.
Trust me, it will get complicated when that special someone thrusts their hand into your chest, rips out your heart, dribbles it around the floor, then slam dunks it into a Cuisinart.
<sniff...sniff> I am truly moved by this. I MUST engrave this on a plaque and place over my monitor first thing in the morning.