What Saves You
I saw a church marquee on the way to work this morning, something like: IT'S NOT WHAT YOU DO THAT SAVES YOU, IT'S WHAT YOU BELIEVE JESUS DID. Well, that raises a few red flags for me.
I think that religion should try to make the world a better place. To make the world a better place, people need to behave better. To encourage people to behave better, I think they need the message: IT'S WHAT YOU DO THAT MATTERS. Instead, the message is: it doesn't matter what you do. Do whatever you want. You have a free pass, courtesy of God himself. How does this benefit anybody?
Now it's clear that making the world a better place is not the goal here (although I really think it should be); because the stated goal is what "saves" you. I think that's a selfish fucking goal. Do whatever you want, and here's how to save your own ass. I don't think encouraging people to "look out for number one" is the best cure for what ails the world. Again, how does this benefit anybody?
I can understand how people would be attracted to this idea, because it clearly appeals to the base instincts. What I don't get is: who the hell spawned this horrific idea in the first place, and why? I can't imagine it could possibly have any good intentions.
I think all religions share the same basic principles, and all of them are trying to achieve the same goal. The good parts of religion are a beautiful thing. But messages like what I saw on this marquee, they take a steaming dump right in God's face, and it disgusts me that people fall for this evil shit.
My take on their choice of wording in the marquee is to get the Emergency Cover Christians. You know, the ones who believe in heaven, and cross themselves for luck, and say that their pets and elderly relatives are with Jesus when they die, but don't step over a church threshold from one year to the next. They believe that all you have to do to go to heaven is "like, be a good person".
Well it's not, not according to the Bible.
I don't think the marquee is saying - it doesn't matter what you do. It's saying what you do is not enough, you need to worship too. And no, you don't end up just looking after number one if you follow Christ's teachings either.
They believe that all you have to do to go to heaven is "like, be a good person".
The sign in question seems to suggest that being a good person counts for nothing.
And no, you don't end up just looking after number one if you follow Christ's teachings either.
I didn't say a word about Christ's teachings. I have nothing but the deepest innermost respect, down to the core of my being, for Christ's teachings. The exploitative teachings of Christianity, which use Jesus as a recruitment tool, and bear little resemblence to his actual message, are an entirely different subject. Conflating the two is deeply troubling to me, on a personal level. It is disrespectful to Jesus.
The sign in question seems to suggest that being a good person counts for nothing.
They were trying to fit it all into a snappy slogan.
The sign in question seems to suggest that being a good person counts for nothing.
I didn't read it that way, but I think it was deliberately worded to make people think.
I didn't say a word about Christ's teachings. I have nothing but the deepest innermost respect, down to the core of my being, for Christ's teachings. The exploitative teachings of Christianity, which use Jesus as a recruitment tool, and bear little resemblence to his actual message, are an entirely different subject. Conflating the two is deeply troubling to me, on a personal level. It is disrespectful to Jesus.
Fair enough.
I assume that if the message is outside a Christian church then the people who respond to the message will be Christians, or looking to become Christians. And the central tenet of Christianity is not "look out for number one"
They were trying to fit it all into a snappy slogan.
It's more than a snappy slogan. I've heard sermons on this, I've been to Bible studies about this (remember, I played drums in a church band for years). The idea of "not through good works alone" can be over-extended into truly disturbing areas. I've had serious discussions with Christians (at Bible study, which was between band practice and the actual service) tyring to get to the heart of this issue: if making you into a better person is not the goal of religion (and they say it isn't, the goal is praising the greatness of God or whatever) then religion has a serious problem justifying it's existence.
And the central tenet of Christianity is not "look out for number one"
The central tenet of Christ's teachings, or any religious teaching, is not that. But, the way people actually interpret Christianity easily can be.
This is a big point of contention between Catholics and redemptionists. RC's are supposed to believe that there needs to be a combination of works and beliefs. FWIW
i was astonished when i saw this:
but then, a little further down the road, i saw this one:
Who wrote the Bible? That should answer most of the problems of today.
http://www.angelfire.com/pa/greywlf/links.htmlHahahahah. Hahahahah. Shit I just choked on my PotNoodle.
Hahaha.
Who wrote the Bible?
If there is a Satan, I believe he might have been the one to take something so beautiful and twist it into what it is today.
Did somebody fart?
I get annoyed at church signs a lot. My suspicion is that the messages are written to appeal to the people who already go to the church, or make a reference to something said in a sermon, etc, and don't really take into account that other people see them too.
I got really annoyed by one that said "Be ye fishers of men: you catch them, He'll clean them." My SO (who is a Christian) explained that Jesus told his disciples to be "fishers of men," meaning that they should convert people to Christianity. The phrasing really bothers me, though, in that just because I do not view the world through the teachings of Christianity, doesn't mean to me that I'm dirty and need to be "cleaned" (or have my head cut off, which is what "cleaning" a fish means!). He didn't understand why it bothered me, because it's an idiom that he's used to, but the me it really seemed overly hostile to non-Christians.
I don't think it necessarily occurs to the people who write the signs that people who see them might feel bad about being referred to in that way.
Several people have commented on who exactly the intended audience of these signs might be, so let me weigh in on that point...
...by observing that the signs are placed way out, as close as possible to a busy roadway, so that all passing motorists see them in their normal field of vision while driving by. If I wasn't intended to see it, or understand it enough to make intelligent comments about it, then they should have just printed it up in the church bulletin and handed it out to their members on Sunday morning.
If, however, they stick it in my face, so that I see it on the way to work, then I am the intended audience, by definition.
I see countless adverts on television that so obviously aren't aimed at me. For example the Febreeze ad that features a dog - nope, no dog smell to cover up in my flat. I bought Febreeze because my sofa had been in storage.
Just because you see it, doesn't mean it is targeted to appeal to you.
but then, a little further down the road, i saw this one:
I'm on my knees ready for the service to begin!!!
I was saved by an ice hockey goalie. I must be a puck.
wait, we're wrecking this thread.
i like it though.....
Just because you see it, doesn't mean it is targeted to appeal to you.
I didn't say it was targeted to appeal to me, I said it was targeted for me
to see it.
I didn't say it was targeted to appeal to me, I said it was targeted for me to see it.
But what would be the point of a sign that no one could see?
"the bible" is a load of horse shit.
"the bible" is a load of horse shit.
I'm not sure I understand your intent. I've read quite a bit of it and can represent that it is far from a load of horse manure.
There's a lot of substance in the Bible even for those who do not consider themselves Christian, Jew or Muslim.
I'm not sure I understand your intent. I've read quite a bit of it and can represent that it is far from a load of horse manure.
There's a lot of substance in the Bible even for those who do not consider themselves Christian, Jew or Muslim.
Ahh I just finished reading "misquoting jesus" by bart ehrman and listening to about twelve hours of lectures on the origins of christianity.
There have been so many mistakes, falsifications, plagiarisms, misattributions, political jockeying involved in what we now have as the KJV that to think there is an iota of veracity requires a great suspension of logic.
What the council of Nicaea perpetrated alone is enough to make me seriously question what was included in the bible.
So by horseshit I mean in terms of its being anything more than a collection of often conflicting moral aphorsims, parables, and rhetoric designed to dis-empower the believer.
Those are legitimate concerns.
Exactly why we should be seeing other people...
;)
If, however, they stick it in my face, so that I see it on the way to work, then I am the intended audience, by definition.
Just because you see it, doesn't mean it is targeted to appeal to you.
I didn't say it was targeted to appeal to me, I said it was targeted for me to see it.
But what would be the point of a sign that no one could see?
There would be no point to a sign that nobody could see.
And the point of a sign that can be seen is for it to be seen by those who can see it.
how many signs must a seeing man see,
Before he walks in the sea?
What the council of Nicaea perpetrated alone is enough to make me seriously question what was included in the bible.
So by horseshit I mean in terms of its being anything more than a collection of often conflicting moral aphorsims, parables, and rhetoric designed to dis-empower the believer.
And to that end, empower and enrich the church. One only look back on the history of the role of The Church in power and control over people of past to see the same situation in todays society. The Good Book was written by
man and passed off as written by some fantasy fairtail alien in the sky. Fear and Loathing in modern religious teachings...
This isn't really part of the topic but I feel like commenting on it anyways.
IT'S NOT WHAT YOU DO THAT SAVES YOU, IT'S WHAT YOU BELIEVE JESUS DID
This is my main beef against the more liberal versions of Christianity. What is the point of religion if you don't have to work for it. Where in The Bible does it say that as long as I believe in Jesus I will go to heaven or is this just a way for Christians to justify themselves?
This way of thinking is just like having a teacher that at the end of the semester hands out a piece of paper with one question, "Do you think I was a good teacher?" All the kids that answered "yes" would get an A in the class no matter how good or bad they did while the kid who worked his or her ass off to get a 100% would fail because he answered "no".
Where in The Bible does it say that as long as I believe in Jesus I will go to heaven or is this just a way for Christians to justify themselves?
Its in the new testament.
Throughout his life Jesus preached the importance of service to one's fellow man. The "it doesn't matter what you do" idea is a slight misrepresentation of what Jesus taught since it fails to acknowledge the requirements he set forth for those who would follow. He was making the point that one could not "earn" their way into heaven with good works but also made the point that good works were at most a requirement and at least strongly encouraged and expected.
While modern Christianity is rife with decay and self-serving distortion - I'm a former Catholic and have chosen not to raise my children Catholic - too many problems, issues, unanswered questions, etc. - the direct teachings of Jesus - as best we know them from the effects of revisionist history - are quite complete and, as far as I can tell, lacking any instance of internal contradiction or internal inconsistency. This cannot be said of formalized Christianity which doesn't really come as a big surprise.
Muahahaha I love that link!
wait, we're wrecking this thread. i like it though.....
Oh, oops. I'll go over there.
I have heard many other Christians say that it is very hard to get into heaven and you do have to earn it.
Church signs have between three and five seconds (unless they are at a traffic light) to make an impact on the viewer. The primary audience is really people who are already associated with that church. I do think that the cutesy sayings are taking over from the upcoming sermon topic variety.
I'm just letting my thoughts wander here, and I may have come up with something. You know how today parents strive to be their kids "friends" rather than actually doing things like setting limits and parenting? I think we're seeing the same effect in religion. God's your buddy now, rather than the rageful, jealous being that will rain down His wroth upon your unworthy head when you sin. Things that are traditional sins are either okay to do now, or at the very least overlooked.
I see countless adverts on television that so obviously aren't aimed at me. For example the Febreeze ad that features a dog - nope, no dog smell to cover up in my flat. I bought Febreeze because my sofa had been in storage.
Just because you see it, doesn't mean it is targeted to appeal to you.
But what made you think it would get rid of that storage smell? Well if it works for doggie smells..... ;)
I'm just letting my thoughts wander here, and I may have come up with something. You know how today parents strive to be their kids "friends" rather than actually doing things like setting limits and [i]parenting]/i]? I think we're seeing the same effect in religion. God's your buddy now, rather than the rageful, jealous being that will rain down His wroth upon your unworthy head when you sin. Things that are traditional sins are either okay to do now, or at the very least overlooked.
I reckon you're bang on there.
Things that are traditional sins are either okay to do now, or at the very least overlooked.
"Get your sins here! Fresh, hot sins! Get 'em while they last!" :doit:
does anyone think it's possible that nobody's right? I've never met anyone who I would trust enough to tell me what's best for me, how I should live my life, but thousands or millions of people listen to some random guy every Sunday just because he's got a title "preacher", or "pastor" or whatever. I'm pretty sure god gave me a mind so I would use it, not wait for someone else to use it for me.
does anyone think it's possible that nobody's right? I've never met anyone who I would trust enough to tell me what's best for me, how I should live my life, but thousands or millions of people listen to some random guy every Sunday just because he's got a title "preacher", or "pastor" or whatever. I'm pretty sure god gave me a mind so I would use it, not wait for someone else to use it for me.
or doctor.
church signs are basically the same as billboards, advertisements to get you to come in and help pay the electricity bill and the salary of some people who don't think they need to work for a living because they are smarter than the rest of us. ...I need to get my own direct line to God so I can start telling people what they're doing wrong...
I'm pretty sure the doctor can actually fix something that's wrong with me, like a broken arm. Most preachers just make shit up as they go along, or better yet, read some famous guy's book and then re-shit it out of their mouth into my ears
well, some preachers prolly do make it up....but then there are undoubtedly some that are very in touch with spirituality in general, and have wisdom to share that can help those of us that don't have the time to ponder it all out on our own.
likewise...doctors get treated like they're automatically superhuman, where the truth is that most of them are maladjusted asswipes just like the rest of us.
there are definitely doctors who only practice to hoc the latest prescription medicine so they can get $$$ paid by the phamacuticals <sp> and there are preachers who spout bullshit so they'll get $$$ paid by the ignorant. In my experience there are many many more good doctors than preachers. And more good of both than lawyers and politicians.
agreed.
welcome to the cellar.
what do cows drink?
I need to get my own direct line to God so I can start telling people what they're doing wrong...
Toy has a direct line to God. Though, it's always dead on the other end.
Hey, Flint. I like what you are saying here. Right on! Well put.
Isa, he was actually a sexy tantric lovelord.xo
...likewise...doctors get treated like they're automatically superhuman, where the truth is that most of them are maladjusted asswipes just like the rest of us.
Let's face it: becoming a doctor takes a lot of commitment, focus, and dedication. While normal young people are out playing sports, dating, partying, and what-not (ESPECIALLY the what-not), future doctors are home studying and reading (not watching) Grey's Anatomy.
Let's face it: becoming a doctor takes a lot of commitment, focus, and dedication.
But not necessarily brilliance. Dedication and smarts don't always go hand-in-hand.
that's what I'm saying. The last thing I want is an overacheiver doctor.
If I could just find a doctor who could help me with my boogie fever I think I'd be saved.
Being a good preacher takes a deep understanding of literature and psychology as well as strong communications skills, like being a professor.
My sister-in-law's cousin is a pastor who provided guidance, comfort and wisdom to the community until recently, when he was hospitalized for cancer. Now his son has mostly taken over for him. When I went to a service there, after not going to church for years, I was impressed by how well the young man took a story with which I was vaguely familiar -- the Prodigal Son -- and interpreted it to explain the story's relevance to contemporary life and from there, go into the Bible's perspective on family, love and loyalty. He incorporated movement and speaking techniques to create a strong stage presence and hold attention, just like good lecturers do. It was clearly a skilled performance.
I went to college because I am able to think on my own, but need to be exposed to new ideas and perspectives in order to grow intellectually. I imagine that going to church with a good pastor/priest offers similar benefits.
This isn't really part of the topic but I feel like commenting on it anyways.
Where in The Bible does it say that as long as I believe in Jesus I will go to heaven or is this just a way for Christians to justify themselves?
You asked...
Romans 10:9 If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Saved does not equal go to heaven, however.
what about those poor poor folks that have never heard of jesu or yaweh? damned for eternity?
Its just that I have heard other quotes saying that it will be hard to get into the kingdom of heaven.
No contradictions though...
try this:
http://www.new-life.net/faq211.htm
answer #4 should probably be #1
A fourth answer to your question is that people who bring up this question are seldom interested in unreached people. It is usually raised as an objection to Christianity, so that the person doesn’t have to personally deal with their decision about God. If unreached people aren’t accountable to God, then there is probably hope for the person asking the question to get by without dealing with Jesus. If a person is so concerned about people knowing Jesus, then why are they debating God's fairness when they should be telling others about His Son. Two thousand years ago Jesus said, "Go into all the nations and proclaim the good news" (Matthew 28:19). After two thousand years that mission is still unaccomplished. Why? Because men and women have been too self centered to fulfill the mission. After all this time it's really not God's fault that people don't know. It's ours.
i admit that i am not actually interested in unreached peoples. that does not change the fact that they exist. nor does it change the implication. and if it is the fault of the believer's that have 'failed' to bring god's message to them......should those unreached people suffer for it? this 'reason' is just spin. obfuscation.
that whole ultimatum thing xtians bow before is flawed. if you truly and elementally believe that jesus is god and that he died for your sins and that you will go to heaven if you confess your sins with your lips.......
bullllll shiiiiiit.
if you do fucked up stuff to other people.....and confess it....you still fucking did it. you are still gonna pay. maybe in this life, maybe in the next. maybe you'll suffer at the hands of others. maybe you'll torture yourself.
You asked...
Romans 10:9 If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Now we know where it is written...how do we know it is *true*? I mean, I've got a book about a guy who was raised on Mars that says a lot of interesting stuff about religion, but I'm pretty sure I'm not going to go out and conquer a bunch of backwards nations to bring people around to the book's way of thinking.
A fourth answer to your question is that people who bring up this question are seldom interested in unreached people. It is usually raised as an objection to Christianity, so that the person doesn’t have to personally deal with their decision about God. If unreached people aren’t accountable to God, then there is probably hope for the person asking the question to get by without dealing with Jesus. If a person is so concerned about people knowing Jesus, then why are they debating God's fairness when they should be telling others about His Son. Two thousand years ago Jesus said, "Go into all the nations and proclaim the good news" (Matthew 28:19). After two thousand years that mission is still unaccomplished. Why? Because men and women have been too self centered to fulfill the mission. After all this time it's really not God's fault that people don't know. It's ours.
This is a perfect example of taking a preposterous position based on cherry picking a couple verses out of context. This man does a great disservice to mankind and God.
Heh, the whole idea is preposterous.
