Religion Topics

monster • Mar 27, 2007 8:25 pm

There seem to be an awful lot of them recently -particularly anti-religion ones. I don't have a problem with this, but I was wondering if it would be beneficial if they were all directed to the same forum -maybe philosophy or current events? Only it seems there something on this topic in every forum right now. If you are interested in debating the topic, all relevant threads would be in the same place, and if you're not, then it's easier to avoid them?

I just checked back and saw that religion was included in the description of the philosophy forum, so maybe that would be good place? Or am I suggestiong something that would be considered curtailment of freedom of expression in the cellar? Do mods move posts here?

Just wondering is all, please don't shoot me!

Spexxvet • Mar 27, 2007 10:07 pm

God damn you! :D

Bullitt • Mar 27, 2007 10:13 pm

I think the spurt of religion threads is more due to current event threads that slide into some kind of religion debate.
Just roll with it I guess.

Ibby • Mar 27, 2007 10:16 pm

Well considering religion has permeated just about every aspect of society, it seems only fitting it's permeated just about every aspect of the forum.

rkzenrage • Mar 31, 2007 12:08 am

I have no issue with religion.
The degrading of the separation of church and state and the stepping-up of the bigotry against non-christians and the non-religious and one aspect of religion, teaching children that if they sin they will go to hell, which is child abuse, and using religion to further other forms of bigotry like racism/homophobia/misogynism are things I am against and enjoy discussing.
As long as someone does not use their religion to harm others... no sweat.

monster • Mar 31, 2007 1:01 am

rkz, I agree with you on many counts -I have been enjoying your posts, but they seem related to one another and yet scattered throughout the forums which are generally differentiated by subject matter. I appreciate that your posts are not about religion in itself, but yours are not the only posts I wanted clarification about, and religion seemed the common denominator, hence the thread title.

Personally, I would find it easier if related topics were in the same forum, but I appreciate that more people can be reached and the wide-ranging nature of the issue can be highlighted by posting in many forums. Hence the reason for my question/post.

xoxoxoBruce • Mar 31, 2007 2:58 am

rkzenrage;328858 wrote:
I have no issue with religion.
The degrading of the separation of church and state and the stepping-up of the bigotry against non-christians and the non-religious and one aspect of religion, teaching children that if they sin they will go to hell, which is child abuse, and using religion to further other forms of bigotry like racism/homophobia/misogynism are things I am against and enjoy discussing.
As long as someone does not use their religion to harm others... no sweat.

And as soon as you see something YOU think is wrong, you bring out the firehose and condemn every Christian in the world.

That ain’t the way religion works. There’s more flavors of Christians than you can count. It doesn’t make any difference what you think a particular flavor should or shouldn’t do. Christ couldn’t do it, who the hell do you think you are?

The Roman’s said the pope is the cat’s ass. The Greeks said bullshit we’re doing it our way, and still are.

The Romans said you gotta follow our rules, viola...Protestants.

Some said the Romans were only slightly wrong....Church of England.

It kept splitting and splitting, not because God said so, not because the bible changed, because people wanted their religion to reflect their beliefs not the other way around. Kids grew up being taught one way, although that way might change even in their childhood span. If they couldn’t get comfortable with that way, they either followed their own conscience within it or left that sect. They might even leave Christianity or religion entirely.

Pompous asses that Try to define strict rules and boxes for any flavor of Christianity, just don’t get it. They don’t have a clue how it works, can’t comprehend the people shape the religion not the other way around.

Don't tell me you studied them all, I'm not even beginning to buy that. All you find in textbooks is a snapshot of a living, breathing, seething mass. Memorize that book and you still don’t know shit.

Christianity isn’t the only religion of many flavors. Guess what, millions of people believe, and practice Buddhism as their religion. They worship the Dali Lama as a deity. You can claim they are wrong, they say you’re wrong. Their will shapes their beliefs and you don’t get tell them why they have to believe.

Islam seems to be broken down in to Sunni and Shia, but thats only the beginning. It depends on the school, the area, maybe village. They women wearing western dress, working in offices or shops aren't Muslim? The women in villages stoned for letting an ankle show aren't Muslims? Many flavors shaped by the opinions and prejudices of the people, not any god.

Telling a kid he's going to hell is child abuse? I suppose mom telling him she'll break his arm if he doesn't stay out of the cookies is too? Oh boo hoo, if that's the most traumatic thing that happens to him, he's doing better than most. Well, actually worse because he won't be able to handle the real world and will get his ass handed to him.

So when you start that broad brush you're full of shit.

rkzenrage • Mar 31, 2007 3:52 am

every Christian in the world

Quite the opposite.
My definition was quite narrow. Try actually reading it.
The AU is owned and run by Christians, it is the largest organization promoting the separation of church and state and MANY christians do not believe in hell, and many who do don't use it as mental torture on kids.
Yes, if you tell a kid that you will break their arm it is no different than telling anyone else the same thing, it is assault.
You don't want to believe I've studied religions, all of them, for over twenty years and went to seminary prep... good for you.
I'm sorry you are so angry and in pain and need to share it, I am.
If the religious want to believe what they want and be bigoted, cool, as long as they don't act on it.
[youtube]i3iGVS0vuCQ[/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3YOIImOoYM

TheMercenary • Mar 31, 2007 9:33 am

xoxoxoBruce;328922 wrote:

So when you start that broad brush you're full of shit.

that has to be a Hall of Fame statement. :biggrinba

elSicomoro • Mar 31, 2007 11:26 am

Folks, the only sensible worship is that of the whale penis. Someday, you'll all finally get it.

xoxoxoBruce • Mar 31, 2007 12:28 pm

rkzenrage;328858 wrote:
I have no issue with [COLOR="Red"]religion.[/COLOR]
The degrading of the separation of church and state and the stepping-up of the bigotry [COLOR="Red"]against non-christians [/COLOR]and the non-religious and one aspect of religion, teaching children that if they sin they will go to hell, which is child abuse, and using religion to further other forms of bigotry like racism/homophobia/misogynism are things I am against and enjoy discussing.
As long as someone does not use their religion to harm others... no sweat.

rkzenrage;328933 wrote:
?
[Quite the opposite.
My definition was quite narrow. Try actually reading it.

Religion and against non-Christians, is pretty narrow? Yeah, right.

The AU is owned and run by Christians, it is the largest organization promoting the separation of church and state and MANY christians do not believe in hell, and many who do don't use it as mental torture on kids.
Yes, if you tell a kid that you will break their arm it is no different than telling anyone else the same thing, it is assault.

Show me AU in your post? Assault? mental torture? your theatrical training shines through, is that what it is when you don't allow your kid to touch you?

You don't want to believe I've studied religions, all of them, for over twenty years and went to seminary prep... good for you.

I didn't say you didn't study them, I said you're fooling yourself if you think you understand every flavor of any religion. Seminary prep? how does that differ from acting prep?

I'm sorry you are so angry and in pain and need to share it, I am.

You're sorry I'm sick of your bigotry? Acting again I see.

If the religious want to believe what they want and be bigoted, cool, as long as they don't act on it.

That's great advice, why don't you follow it?

elSicomoro • Mar 31, 2007 12:57 pm

Wow...I don't think I've ever seen Bruce go at a particular person like this before. It's kinda weird.

rkzenrage • Mar 31, 2007 5:54 pm

I love it when people bring acting up, as though those who have training in acting are immoral or automatically liars and/or incapable of speaking plainly.
It is very telling and shows that they cannot address the argument directly. It is a "look over here" tactic and sad.

I know sycamore, I think he has a crush on me... I'm flattered.

It is not PC to "respect" religious thinking over reason... makes no sense. It should be held to the same standard as anything else.
If someone states anything else that is equally difficult to show no one hesitates to call them on it. Why religion? Makes no sense.
When someone states that the holocaust did not happen, it is a belief of theirs... why not "respect their beliefs"? Is it not wrong to question that and "take it away from them"? Big bad meanies!
No, reason over PC BS, teach the next generation to question everything.

xoxoxoBruce • Apr 1, 2007 3:15 pm

rkzenrage;329103 wrote:
I love it when people bring acting up, as though those who have training in acting are immoral or automatically liars and/or incapable of speaking plainly.
It is very telling and shows that they cannot address the argument directly. It is a "look over here" tactic and sad.

Fuck you, nice try, but that diversion won't work any more than the Seminary prep fools anyone into thinking you have any credentials on religion.

I know sycamore, I think he has a crush on me... I'm flattered.

Excellent idea..... crush would be appropriate treatment for a bigoted asshole like you.

It is not PC to "respect" religious thinking over reason... makes no sense. It should be held to the same standard as anything else.
If someone states anything else that is equally difficult to show no one hesitates to call them on it. Why religion? Makes no sense.
When someone states that the holocaust did not happen, it is a belief of theirs... why not "respect their beliefs"? Is it not wrong to question that and "take it away from them"? Big bad meanies!
No, reason over PC BS, teach the next generation to question everything.

You want to teach the next generation what you believe, but deny the parents to do the same.
You want to use your logic because you're such a self centered asshole you think only your conclusions are true. You're such a bigot nobody else is smart enough to question your position.
Love the way you brought up questioning the existence of the Holocaust, which 99% of the know is true, to back up your bullshit rants on religion. But alas, people aren't as stupid as you treat them, they'll see through that diversion, too.

Dagney • Apr 1, 2007 4:39 pm

While I don't disagree with the discussion of religious topics here, I certainly think some folks would get better mileage with the creation of their own blog, or perhaps the re-establishment of the 'blog-type' area we had a few years ago.

DanaC • Apr 1, 2007 6:32 pm

You must have missed the Marichiko debacle then Syc. bruce seems very happy as long as he has at least one person he can be a total bastard with.

xoxoxoBruce • Apr 1, 2007 8:22 pm

What the fuck are you talking about? Mari and I agreed on some things not on others, but she always gave as good as she got.
I'm a bastard because I don't back down? Or am I not genteel enough for you?

elSicomoro • Apr 1, 2007 11:51 pm

Bruce has his moments...don't we all? But I've rarely seen him go after anyone with such fervor. I haven't read all the back and forth between him and rkz, so I don't know who started what or "who is in the wrong" or whatever. Just commenting on how unusual it is to me to see it.

Aliantha • Apr 2, 2007 2:42 am

I think religion is very important for some people, and so it is a big part of their lives. They talk about it. It's their yardstick.

Besides, the end is coming. Of course everyone's talking about Godly stuff. ;)

xoxoxoBruce • Apr 2, 2007 4:42 pm

You're right, Aliantha. And when a minority of them do something stupid, that's no reason to hammer all of them or all religions that aren't your* own.
Blanket assertions and unjust accusations are never all right.

*Not your, your own, they're, your own.

rkzenrage • Apr 2, 2007 4:43 pm

xoxoxoBruce;329328 wrote:
Fuck you, nice try, but that diversion won't work any more than the Seminary prep fools anyone into thinking you have any credentials on religion. Excellent idea..... crush would be appropriate treatment for a bigoted asshole like you.You want to teach the next generation what you believe, but deny the parents to do the same.
You want to use your logic because you're such a self centered asshole you think only your conclusions are true. You're such a bigot nobody else is smart enough to question your position.
Love the way you brought up questioning the existence of the Holocaust, which 99% of the know is true, to back up your bullshit rants on religion. But alas, people aren't as stupid as you treat them, they'll see through that diversion, too.

Bigot? Man, I sure am curious as to your definition of that word.
Religon is a choice and I never said religious people were bad people. I just said some made bad decisions based on it and it was a delusion.
Also, I think the Celler is a group of some of the smartest people out there, you are an elitist jerk.
But, since you are so much smarter than everyone... show me your stuff.
Sure, I think my position is true, show me it is not and I will happily recant & thank you for showing me the error of my ways.
Bigot... man, that is a good one.:D

xoxoxoBruce • Apr 2, 2007 5:02 pm

Yeah bigot, against all religions except your own, which you won't even admit is a religion, even though millions say your wrong.

Prove your hate mongering is wrong? It's always wrong, asshole. But of course you wouldn't understand that, being contrary to your personal dogma.

Elitist? Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Probably most of the people here have more education and definitely more knowledgeable in their field(s) than I am. That's why I'm always asking questions, trying to learn more.

That said, I can still recognize a shit throwing monkey like you by the way it's targeted, rather than just a general shit stirrer like LJ.

Flint • Apr 2, 2007 5:07 pm

rkzenrage;328858 wrote:
I have no issue with religion.
The degrading of the separation of church and state and the stepping-up of the bigotry against non-christians and the non-religious and one aspect of religion, teaching children that if they sin they will go to hell, which is child abuse, and using religion to further other forms of bigotry like racism/homophobia/misogynism are things I am against and enjoy discussing.
As long as someone does not use their religion to harm others... no sweat.

rkzenrage • Apr 2, 2007 5:13 pm

Religion? Please tell me how something that has no belief in anything supernatural, an afterlife or set dogma is a religion to anyone but a government for designation purposes?

I agree, the above was a poor choice of words on my part... thank you for pointing that out for me. I recant that statement.
However, one is far harder pressed to change being a rational thinker than someone who chooses to believe in something with no evidence.
Being someone who is only 3% of a population where the opposition is represented by everyone, but one, in the House and Senate, the Judicial branch and all of the Executive branch (God talks to our illustrious leader, whooooo!) and is the most powerful lobby while laws in many states still keep you from holding office does smack of that word or, at least, institutionalized marginalization.

Hate? I don't hate anyone, I dislike certain ideas being pushed on children, I dislike any break in the separation of church and state... I hate no one.

xoxoxoBruce;329739 wrote:

Elitist? Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Probably most of the people here have more education and definitely more knowledgeable in their field(s) than I am. That's why I'm always asking questions, trying to learn more.
That said, I can still recognize a shit throwing monkey like you by the way it's targeted, rather than just a general shit stirrer like LJ.

xoxoxoBruce;329328 wrote:

You want to use your logic because you're such a self centered asshole you think only your conclusions are true. You're such a bigot nobody else is smart enough to question your position.

Aliantha • Apr 2, 2007 6:05 pm

Flint;329744 wrote:

I'm with you on that one Flint.

I think some of the things said in this thread are particularly vile and one eyed. Such a shame.

Aliantha • Apr 2, 2007 6:09 pm

xoxoxoBruce;329728 wrote:
You're right, Aliantha. And when a minority of them do something stupid, that's no reason to hammer all of them or all religions that aren't your* own.
Blanket assertions and unjust accusations are never all right.

*Not your, your own, they're, your own.

While I respect your right to your own opinion Bruce, I don't see rkz as hammering all religions that aren't his own. I see him arguing the case for separation of state and church. Yes he does it all over the place, and yeah it can be tiresome sometimes (even though I agree with him totally) but this forum has touted itself on allowing people the right to state their views as long as it's not to the detrimet of other members.

As has been said to many others here before, if you don't like it, put him on ignore or simple disregard his posts. It's pretty simple.

xoxoxoBruce • Apr 2, 2007 7:06 pm

Flint wrote:
If this is bigotry, count me in!

Quote:
Originally Posted by rkzenrage
I have no issue with religion.
The degrading of the separation of church and state and the stepping-up of the bigotry against non-christians and the non-religious and one aspect of religion, teaching children that if they sin they will go to hell, which is child abuse, and using religion to further other forms of bigotry like racism/homophobia/misogynism are things I am against and enjoy discussing.
As long as someone does not use their religion to harm others... no sweat.

Me too, if it stopped there and didn't make outrageous claims about child abuse.

xoxoxoBruce • Apr 2, 2007 7:21 pm

rkzenrage;329753 wrote:
Religion? Please tell me how something that has no belief in anything supernatural, an afterlife or set dogma is a religion to anyone but a government for designation purposes?

Who says those are the qualifications for religion? A lot of people worship things or concepts without those qualifications, and feel their's is valid religion.

I agree, the above was a poor choice of words on my part... thank you for pointing that out for me. I recant that statement.
However, one is far harder pressed to change being a rational thinker than someone who chooses to believe in something with no evidence.
Being someone who is only 3% of a population where the opposition is represented by everyone, but one, in the House and Senate, the Judicial branch and all of the Executive branch (God talks to our illustrious leader, whooooo!) and is the most powerful lobby while laws in many states still keep you from holding office does smack of that word or, at least, institutionalized marginalization.

Get real, most of those scumbags in Washington only affiliate themselves with any religion, to get elected. You can't possibly be naive enough to think religion plays any part in their day to day behavior.

Hate? I don't hate anyone, I dislike certain ideas being pushed on children, I dislike any break in the separation of church and state... I hate no one.

When you broad brush religion, you're painting billions of people outside the US, that have nothing to do with church and state.

xoxoxoBruce • Apr 2, 2007 7:34 pm

Aliantha;329778 wrote:
While I respect your right to your own opinion Bruce, I don't see rkz as hammering all religions that aren't his own. I see him arguing the case for separation of state and church. Yes he does it all over the place, and yeah it can be tiresome sometimes (even though I agree with him totally) but this forum has touted itself on allowing people the right to state their views as long as it's not to the detrimet of other members.

As has been said to many others here before, if you don't like it, put him on ignore or simple disregard his posts. It's pretty simple.

You still don't get it do you? This isn't Speakers Square when anyone can take a turn on the soapbox and state views then toddle off home.

It you want to expound your philosophy write a book. If you bring it here, expect reaction and action in proportion to how off the wall your claims are.
No, you don't get to decide proportion, that's up to the offended.

TheMercenary • Apr 2, 2007 8:20 pm

Aliantha;329778 wrote:
While I respect your right to your own opinion Bruce, I don't see rkz as hammering all religions that aren't his own. I see him arguing the case for separation of state and church. Yes he does it all over the place, and yeah it can be tiresome sometimes (even though I agree with him totally) but this forum has touted itself on allowing people the right to state their views as long as it's not to the detrimet of other members.

As has been said to many others here before, if you don't like it, put him on ignore or simple disregard his posts. It's pretty simple.

Please Ignore me and do not respond to any of my posts. Thanks.

Aliantha • Apr 2, 2007 9:32 pm

lol...you don't get to tell me not to respond to you Merc. You do however have the choice to ignore me. :)

See Bruces last post for clarification.

Aliantha • Apr 2, 2007 9:34 pm

xoxoxoBruce;329831 wrote:
You still don't get it do you? This isn't Speakers Square when anyone can take a turn on the soapbox and state views then toddle off home.

It you want to expound your philosophy write a book. If you bring it here, expect reaction and action in proportion to how off the wall your claims are.
No, you don't get to decide proportion, that's up to the offended.

I do get it Bruce.

The bit I don't get is why you're so upset. There's plenty of people on this forum with their own agenda. I don't understand why you consistantly attack the same people and let others go their own merry way. That's all.

TheMercenary • Apr 2, 2007 10:18 pm

Aliantha;329873 wrote:
lol...you don't get to tell me not to respond to you Merc. You do however have the choice to ignore me. :)

See Bruces last post for clarification.

Thank you for failing to follow directions and not respond to me. I can tell you anything I want, including don't respond to me. Now follow directions and ignore me before I send a big wave down there to wash you away!

Flint • Apr 2, 2007 10:28 pm

Can he do that?! :worried:

Aliantha • Apr 2, 2007 10:33 pm

I suspect he thinks he can. ;)

monster • Apr 2, 2007 11:31 pm

Flint;329899 wrote:
Can he do that?! :worried:

Yes, but it might be a semi-permanent wave, so be prepared to curl up and dye, sweetie, but after an hour under the blower you'll be a right as rain!

God • Apr 3, 2007 3:23 am

I've been following your posts Bruce and you'll be happy to know that there are 72 very beautiful virgins waiting for you up here...

Ummm....That's what Allah told me anyway. :blush:

xoxoxoBruce • Apr 3, 2007 7:14 pm

God;329952 wrote:
I've been following your posts Bruce and you'll be happy to know that there are 72 very beautiful virgins waiting for you up here...

Ummm....That's what Allah told me anyway. :blush:

Fuck you, you don't exist. Guess who told me.

xoxoxoBruce • Apr 3, 2007 7:18 pm

Aliantha;329876 wrote:

The bit I don't get is why you're so upset. There's plenty of people on this forum with their own agenda. I don't understand why you consistantly attack the same people and let others go their own merry way. That's all.

Whom do I consistantly attack?

Aliantha • Apr 3, 2007 7:23 pm

well there's obviously rkz.

My point in asking this question is that by now we all know you two disagree on the subject of religion. I just wonder why you keep going at it.

I gave up arguing about gun topics because I figured I'd made my position fairly clear, and also because I just got sick of arguing the same arguments over and over.

I just wonder what the point is, and I'm not trying to be rude or confrontational. I just wonder what the point of continuing is.

xoxoxoBruce • Apr 3, 2007 8:10 pm

Aliantha wrote:
I don't understand why you consistantly attack the same people and let others go their own merry way. That's all.

Aliantha wrote:
well there's obviously rkz. My point in asking this question is that by now we all know you two disagree on the subject of religion. I just wonder why you keep going at it.

How do you expect to get an answer if you keep changing the fucking question?

Aliantha wrote:
I gave up arguing about gun topics because I figured I'd made my position fairly clear, and also because I just got sick of arguing the same arguments over and over.

Quitter...just kidding. If you make a statement and I disagree, I make a counter statement. Then if, "I'd made my position fairly clear," why make another statement? Do you really expect not to be challenged the second, or third, or whatever time?
Listen to yourself, you get sick of arguments when you're part of them?
It'd very simple, if you don't want to argue, don't.

Now, you want to know why I'm pissed at your buddy, is that it?
He finally broke the camels back. Maybe it's my own fault for letting it slide, trying to be tolerant, looking the other way. If so, so be it. But now I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to let it slide anymore.
I think you are the one.... ah here, "I see him arguing the case for separation of state and church.". If you really mean that, you've really got to get your head out of your ass. I suggest you go back and read his posts for the last few months. See how many shots he takes at any and all religions except his own. Saying they are all bad, people following them are fools, insulting most of the people in the world. I dumped on Flint for the same generalizations, albeit sooner, but he was baiting.

bluecuracao and I argued about Indians. She stood up for her beliefs and made good points. I learned things from her and have the deepest possible respect for her..... even though we don't see eye to eye on some things.

On the Shakespeare thing, Cloud scolded me for questioning any performance and accused me of hating Shakespeare. That was total bullshit, so I told her to go to hell. That doesn't mean I dislike her, not at all. I just rebuffed her untrue attack.

I respect people that are willing to stand up for their beliefs. But I will never, ever, ever, accept I'm wrong, just because you say so. Never.

Aliantha • Apr 3, 2007 8:16 pm

Whatever you say Bruce. I have just been wondering that's all. You don't seem to be the same person you were when I first started comming here. I never saw you talk to people the way you do now when I first arrived. Maybe it's just my perception. I've just been wondering if there's something wrong that's making you less tolerant that you once were.

TheMercenary • Apr 3, 2007 9:07 pm

Bruce, you intolerant prick. Have a drink already. :D

xoxoxoBruce • Apr 3, 2007 9:20 pm

Aliantha;330213 wrote:
I've just been wondering if there's something wrong that's making you less tolerant that you once were.

Simple, the intolerance of others.

Aliantha • Apr 3, 2007 9:22 pm

Well if that's all it is then that's good.

rkzenrage • Apr 4, 2007 4:45 am

God;329952 wrote:
I've been following your posts Bruce and you'll be happy to know that there are 72 very beautiful virgins waiting for you up here...

Ummm....That's what Allah told me anyway. :blush:

Hey!... ask Kali if she wants my neighbor's dog's head for me, ok?

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