The Legislative Branch has no oversight responsibility over the White House.

Happy Monkey • Mar 22, 2007 5:22 pm
Here's the new talking point. [video]

The State Department seems to disagree a bit:
Congressional oversight prevents waste and fraud; protects civil liberties and individual rights; ensures executive compliance with the law; gathers information for making laws and educating the public; and evaluates executive performance. It applies to cabinet departments, executive agencies, regulatory commissions, and the presidency.

Congress's oversight function takes many forms:
— Committee inquiries and hearings;

via
BigV • Mar 22, 2007 6:38 pm
Please supply the video-challenged among us with some suitable con-text, if you please.
Happy Monkey • Mar 22, 2007 7:55 pm
The thread title is a direct quote from Tony Snow, and he's been saying it on news shows throughout the day. More context is in the "via" link.
BigV • Mar 22, 2007 8:34 pm
Thanks.

Tony Snow, and Alberto Gonzales, among others were selected more for their loyalty and devotion to the President, than for their loyalty and devotion to anything else, like the truth or the Constitution. I take his remarks with a grain of salt. I do accept the unfortunate truth that practically anything said long enough and loud enough is more likely to be scrutinized less, given more credit as "fact", despite the objective truth of the matter. :sigh:
Griff • Mar 22, 2007 8:54 pm
What bums me out are all the impeachable offenses that are going unaddressed while they screw around with this.
tw • Mar 22, 2007 10:27 pm
Griff;325431 wrote:
What bums me out are all the impeachable offenses that are going unaddressed while they screw around with this.
So how many were critical when America installed an Attorney General that advocated torture? Outright advocated torture and we stayed silent or endorsed him - same difference.

Congress is dealing with what they can because so many Americans - including a majority in The Cellar - remain so quiet about a George Jr administration that would even suspend writ of Habeas Corpus. How many voiced contempt for that in The Cellar. Only a tiny minority.

Welcome to days of Nixon when so many Americans completely denied what Woodward and Bernstein were publishing. Those who learned from the movies (ie Watergate) would never understand. Almost no one was complaining about Watergate because ... well, just like today, many only stated a dislike. Dislike is akin to support of George Jr. A large majority in The Cellar - both domestic and foreign - post clear support of George Jr because their comments are not sufficiently negative. I see same active support of George Jr as during Watergate when a 'silent majority' also strongly supported Nixon and the Vietnam war - by so much silence.

Same support for Nixon that kept America in Nam for seven more years is support of George Jr today. Exactly why impeachable crimes cannot even be considered. Even posters in Britain and China post what is strong support for George Jr. Silence is support.
TheMercenary • Mar 22, 2007 11:52 pm
tw;325445 wrote:
So how many were critical when America installed an Attorney General that advocated torture? Outright advocated torture and we stayed silent or endorsed him - same difference.

Congress is dealing with what they can because so many Americans - including a majority in The Cellar - remain so quiet about a George Jr administration that would even suspend writ of Habeas Corpus. How many voiced contempt for that in The Cellar. Only a tiny minority.

Welcome to days of Nixon when so many Americans completely denied what Woodward and Bernstein were publishing. Those who learned from the movies (ie Watergate) would never understand. Almost no one was complaining about Watergate because ... well, just like today, many only stated a dislike. Dislike is akin to support of George Jr. A large majority in The Cellar - both domestic and foreign - post clear support of George Jr because their comments are not sufficiently negative. I see same active support of George Jr as during Watergate when a 'silent majority' also strongly supported Nixon and the Vietnam war - by so much silence.

Same support for Nixon that kept America in Nam for seven more years is support of George Jr today. Exactly why impeachable crimes cannot even be considered. Even posters in Britain and China post what is strong support for George Jr. Silence is support.

Exactly how old are you? I was around for Nixon and his fall from grace. Those were crimes. This is politics. Nothing more, nothing less. You are a Bush Basher. Please bring something to the table that has substance.
rkzenrage • Mar 23, 2007 2:23 am
Lying to Congress is nothing right?
Griff • Mar 23, 2007 7:18 am
tw;325445 wrote:
So how many were critical when America installed an Attorney General that advocated torture? Outright advocated torture and we stayed silent or endorsed him - same difference.


You are, of course, correct. Unfortunately, sometimes people need to be lead.
glatt • Mar 23, 2007 8:43 am
tw;325445 wrote:
So how many were critical when America installed an Attorney General that advocated torture? Outright advocated torture and we stayed silent or endorsed him - same difference.

Congress is dealing with what they can because so many Americans - including a majority in The Cellar - remain so quiet...


This is the Cellar thread in which we discussed the Gonzales appointment. I don't see anyone supporting Gonzales, and many people strongly criticized him.
warch • Mar 23, 2007 5:59 pm
I was also around for Nixon's fall and pardon....granted a young thing yet....but this adminstration's constellation of unprecedented power consolidation, manipulation and strategery- from signing statements, to political favors, to secret tapping, to torture, to haliburton, to abramoff, to plame, to misinformation and press manipulation, mismanagement, to secret prisons, to message leakage, to justice firing, to CIA tinkering and executive privilege... is making the break-in and Nixon taped arrogance look like the junior varsity. Many of the same crooks all grown up.

It may seem I am bashing Bush, but I am merely paying attention.
Griff • Mar 23, 2007 7:22 pm
warch;325707 wrote:

It may seem I am bashing Bush, but I am merely paying attention.


The Nixon Gang were pikers compared to this crowd.
tw • Mar 24, 2007 3:14 am
glatt;325519 wrote:
This is the Cellar thread in which we discussed the Gonzales appointment. I don't see anyone supporting Gonzales, and many people strongly criticized him.
I don't see strong condemnation of Gonzales. In that thread, I see Ashcroft resigns, Gonzales is selected, and Gonzales justified torture. Then the discussion goes into length about whether torture and 'enemy combatants' is justified. Eventually Powell resigns. Where is all this condemnation of Gonzales? One that approaches a strong condemnation is a post from glatt.

Over the past two years, Gonzales has been quietly approved when this is a guy who even refuses to close Guantanamo - as both Rice and Gate (Secretary of State and Secretary of Defense) - want. Why? This guy even condones unrestricted wire tapping. He even approves of international wire tapping without judicial review of when they even had a secret court to approve such spying.

Well maybe this entire administration is so corrupt that no one bothers to speak out. Words like scumbag and mental midget would be routine if people were truly opposed. Such mild criticism is so little as to be approval.

I don't see widespread condemnation of Gonzales, George Jr, "Mission Accomplished", wild and uncontrolled government spending, encouragement for war by the Israelis, intent to end the Nuclear Test Ban treaty, efforts to undermine the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty, Cheney's need for more presidential powers, corporate welfare to keep drug prices high, prosecution of those responsible for the CA energy crisis, destruction of science (ie stem cell research), White House lawyers rewriting science papers, America's poor relations through out the world - even with Mexico and Canada, etc. And then we have criminal after criminal activity among George Jr's closest supporters. Why so much quiet?
bluesdave • Mar 24, 2007 3:39 am
tw, just out of interest, do Americans listen to any of the NPR radio stations, or watch Jim Lehrer on PBS? Sometimes I think that we get better coverage of US politics than you guys do. In spite of what you have said to me in the recent past, I do not watch Fox News (I cannot - I do not have cable). The great thing about NPR, and Jim Lehrer, is that they show *both* sides of an argument. They do not just "Bush bash", they try to tell a balanced story. They have been very critical of Gonzales, and he is one of the few cases where neither forum has been able to find anything positive to say.

GWB has had his problems, but you have to live with him until Jan 2009. I disagreed with the invasion of Iraq in the first place, but I fully support both of our governments in keeping our troops in there for the foreseeable future. Not everything that Bush does is wrong. That does not mean that you can't criticise him, but a blanket "bagging" of everything to do with the White House, is not productive.
TheMercenary • Mar 24, 2007 11:21 am
bluesdave;325851 wrote:
tw, just out of interest, do Americans listen to any of the NPR radio stations, or watch Jim Lehrer on PBS? Sometimes I think that we get better coverage of US politics than you guys do. In spite of what you have said to me in the recent past, I do not watch Fox News (I cannot - I do not have cable). The great thing about NPR, and Jim Lehrer, is that they show *both* sides of an argument. They do not just "Bush bash", they try to tell a balanced story. They have been very critical of Gonzales, and he is one of the few cases where neither forum has been able to find anything positive to say.

GWB has had his problems, but you have to live with him until Jan 2009. I disagreed with the invasion of Iraq in the first place, but I fully support both of our governments in keeping our troops in there for the foreseeable future. Not everything that Bush does is wrong. That does not mean that you can't criticise him, but a blanket "bagging" of everything to do with the White House, is not productive.

And that about sums it up. I find it interesting, and somewhat of a national talking point, that if you don't bash Bush you must get your information from Fox News. It has become a national response amongst the libs. I don't watch it much my self, except for O'Reilly, whom is not a newscaster as many like to paint him. He is a commentator. Same goes for Lehrer, which is a great show. But back to Fox, I never really considered Mara Liasson and Juan Williams to be very conservative.
TheMercenary • Mar 24, 2007 11:23 am
warch;325707 wrote:
I was also around for Nixon's fall and pardon....granted a young thing yet....but this adminstration's constellation of unprecedented power consolidation, manipulation and strategery- from signing statements, to political favors, to secret tapping, to torture, to haliburton, to abramoff, to plame, to misinformation and press manipulation, mismanagement, to secret prisons, to message leakage, to justice firing, to CIA tinkering and executive privilege... is making the break-in and Nixon taped arrogance look like the junior varsity. Many of the same crooks all grown up.

It may seem I am bashing Bush, but I am merely paying attention.
I guess we just have to disagree, no problem there. But you certainly seem smarter than to lump all of the problems and events listed above to be "Bush's Fault"?
xoxoxoBruce • Mar 24, 2007 2:01 pm
Then Who's fault is it? The buck stops at the top. The one that sets the precedent, the one that controls his administration. If you say he doesn't control his administration, then that's another failure that's his fault. :eyebrow:
Happy Monkey • Mar 24, 2007 5:32 pm
tw;325845 wrote:
I don't see strong condemnation of Gonzales. In that thread, I see Ashcroft resigns, Gonzales is selected, and Gonzales justified torture. Then the discussion goes into length about whether torture and 'enemy combatants' is justified. Eventually Powell resigns. Where is all this condemnation of Gonzales? One that approaches a strong condemnation is a post from glatt.
And me. And Beestie.
TheMercenary • Mar 24, 2007 6:12 pm
xoxoxoBruce;325914 wrote:
Then Who's fault is it? The buck stops at the top. The one that sets the precedent, the one that controls his administration. If you say he doesn't control his administration, then that's another failure that's his fault. :eyebrow:
And that is the beat of the mantra of the Left. I don't view the interdependent and complicated relationships of national and international politics in a such a simplistic manner. If it simplifies things for you by all means use "Bush's Fault" as your mantra. Many problems which surfaced in this administrations tenure have festered for more than 7 years including the events on 9/11/01. Congress carries much of the burden for current events either through action or non-action. Individuals in the administration carry responsibility for events, just because the worked for Bush does not mean "Bush did it!". The actions of a few misfit soldiers does not mean the General in charge did it, condoned it, or approved it. I am not absolving Bush of anything. He is an idiot. But he is not always responsible for the idiots under him. Persecute him in the annals of public opinion if it makes you feel better but it does not mean any of the problems are going to go away.
tw • Mar 24, 2007 11:26 pm
Happy Monkey;325955 wrote:
And me. And Beestie.
The Cellar is more than a handful of fingers. This silence is overwhelming. So many posters. So few viciously condemn a man who openly advocates torture, wire tapping without judicial review, firing US Attorneys to promote Republican extremists - and repeatedly lie about it. Where is this widespread defamation for a man with so much anti-American morals as to publicly advocate torture and to suspend habeas corpus to promote torture?

Crickets....
tw • Mar 24, 2007 11:30 pm
TheMercenary;325964 wrote:
The actions of a few misfit soldiers does not mean the General in charge did it, condoned it, or approved it.
Just like in Nam when the president openly lied, then massacres and other criminal actions by US soldiers increased - became far more common than is publicly acknowledged. Let's just leave it to many peers who acknowledge actions by 'fellow soldiers'. It was widespread because the president was a liar. So much a liar that mail TO the troops was censored.
Happy Monkey • Mar 24, 2007 11:55 pm
TheMercenary;325964 wrote:
And that is the beat of the mantra of the Left. I don't view the interdependent and complicated relationships of national and international politics in a such a simplistic manner.
No need to simplify. It's Bush's fault and the fault of everyone else involved. It's not coincidence that Bush hired so many bad apples. He intended to spoil the barrel.

Heck, most of the things on warch's list aren't even denied by the administration anymore. They intend it to be the way things are done.
tw • Mar 25, 2007 1:35 am
bluesdave;325851 wrote:
tw, just out of interest, do Americans listen to any of the NPR radio stations, or watch Jim Lehrer on PBS? Sometimes I think that we get better coverage of US politics than you guys do.
NPR and PBS (Jim Lehrer) advocate presenting facts and statements from all sides. But that is only part of it. Another is to provide more than superficial (executive) summaries. For example, we took a same story from two newspapers. The first from a tabloid. Then after a conclusion was reached, we had the same story from a serious newspaper. Second story was provided with details - longer report. Everyone then had a 180 degree different conclusion.

It’s not just 'balanced' that is required. In depth is also essential.

Some giants who did this were Walter Cronkite (CBS), Peter Jennings (ABC), and Ted Koppel (ABC). A news service that was completely gutted when Tisch(?) decided to increase profits rather than improve the product. As a result, Dan Rather had few if any good journalists. Another that is still doing good stuff is Charlie Rose (PBS) whose reports every night this week (and next) are chock full of facts - the details. That stuff costs money if obtained on the net.

Curious is what happened to two ABC News journalists who did good and balanced reporting - Chris Wallace and Jeff Greenfield. Both went to Fox News. Neither reports anything like what they did for ABC which demonstrates how much top management makes that happen. Both Wallace and Greenfield report so completely one sided that I would not recognize them without their byline (names).

I got curious recently about one month after the Walter Reed scandal were repeatedly front page news. Randomly asked 20 and 30 year olds what they knew about Walter Reed. None even knew what Walter Reed was. Then I asked if they know about wounded American soldiers lying in hospital beds even in their own urine. Some literally got indignant because they should not know about this - insisting because they don't watch news.

Zero for 29 is the number of 20 and 30 year olds that knew zero about the news. My surprise was how some were indignant when I asked about soldiers lying in their urine. It explains why so many believe myths about illegal immigrants creating crime waves and living on welfare - as one might expect from those who only read tabloids. It explains why so many are so silent about "Mission Accomplished" and Gonzales. So many don't even hear 22 minutes of network news since Entertainment Tonight (Hollywood gossip and Britney's underwear?) apparently has more interest. As one foolishly said, "The news is so depressing." (She said it without a Valley Girl accent.)

Getting both balanced and in depth news domestically is not easy especially with the loss of both Peter Jennings and Ted Koppel's Nightline. I cannot say enough about what Charlie Rose is doing both this past week and next.
uryoces wrote:
tw, you have a particular slant on things, a bit left-leaning. It sounds like you are reading from someone's political playbook. I like to think I have a centered world view, but my view's pragmatic tendencies lean to the right. Hell I'm the guy that gets his war coverage from Comedy central's "Daily Show with John Stewart".

What I'm saying is that you don't have a privileged view, no matter how many times you bring up the Pentagon Papers. You've got a lot of great knowledge on subjects political, and I spend a great deal of time Googling the facts you bring to bear, but a lot of what you are stating is opinion.
Repeatedly heard is a significant number who get their news from "Daily Show" - a comedy show. Well time is a definer. uryoces posted that back in Mar 2003 back when I was suggesting things like an Iraqi insurgency, looting of the Iraqi museums (they lost 60% of their treasures and are still missing most of it), BBC reporter who found town after town unsafe to keep asking questions (people who welcomed liberation?), Al Qaeda not allies with Saddam, Saddam's missiles did not violate UN limitations, and how Saudis may have been inadvertently financing Al Qaeda. This stuff reported back in Mar 2003 by responsible news sources has proven accurate. That's why responsible and balanced news sources are so essential.

Is everything George doing wrong? No. For example, he wants to lift some ridiculous restrictions on immigration. But when it comes to big things such as what is killing American soldiers, he is wrong more times than anyone has fingers and toes; because decisions are based totally in political agendas. One information source that is 100% suspect everytime? George Jr government whose job is to spin rather than solve.

Let's demonstrate what responsible news sources are currently noting. About 2 million Iraqis have fled the country due to a country made so unsafe by Americans. Another 1.8 million that cannot leave may be hiding out in extreme regions of the country. These people need help. But Americans - even in the Green Zone - can only impede such help. Why? Help would acknowledge facts that are contrary to George Jr spin. Administration would have to admit Iraq has never been worse. So 3.8 million Iraqis are abandoned with the US even impeding UN assistance. Official US spin is that these massive refugee numbers do not exist. How many news sources bother to report such fundamental details? But it again demonstrates the contempt that this administration has for people due to their political agendas.
bluesdave • Mar 25, 2007 4:19 am
Thanks tw (I mean that).
TheMercenary • Mar 25, 2007 6:18 am
tw;326058 wrote:
The Cellar is more than a handful of fingers. This silence is overwhelming. So many posters. So few viciously condemn a man who openly advocates torture, wire tapping without judicial review, firing US Attorneys to promote Republican extremists - and repeatedly lie about it. Where is this widespread defamation for a man with so much anti-American morals as to publicly advocate torture and to suspend habeas corpus to promote torture?

Crickets....


"openly advocates torture"; really??? Where? please provide proof.

"wire tapping without judicial review"; Of phone calls from overseas, hell yea, good idea. Sorry if you were on the receiving end.

"firing US Attorneys to promote Republican extremists - and repeatedly lie about it"; Really where is the proof that Bush did any of this? Gonzales and Bush are not one in the same. Blame someone else cause I doubt you find a single shred of evidence leading back to Bush.

" to publicly advocate torture and to suspend habeas corpus to promote torture"; See first statement.
TheMercenary • Mar 25, 2007 6:22 am
Lost from the Baghdad museum: truth


David Aaronovitch
Tuesday June 10, 2003
The Guardian


Civilians inspect Torah scrolls stored in the vault of the National Museum in Baghdad

When, back in mid-April, the news first arrived of the looting at the Iraqi National Museum in Baghdad, words hardly failed anyone. No fewer than 170,000 items had, it was universally reported, been stolen or destroyed, representing a large proportion of Iraq's tangible culture. And it had all happened as some US troops stood by and watched, and others had guarded the oil ministry.
Professors wrote articles. Professor Michalowski of Michigan argued that this was "a tragedy that has no parallel in world history; it is as if the Uffizi, the Louvre, or all the museums of Washington DC had been wiped out in one fell swoop". Professor Zinab Bahrani from Columbia University claimed that, "By April 12 the entire museum had been looted," and added, "Blame must be placed with the Bush administration for a catastrophic destruction of culture unparalleled in modern history." From Edinburgh Professor Trevor Watkins lamented that, "The loss of Iraq's cultural heritage will go down in history - like the burning of the Library at Alexandria - and Britain and the US will be to blame." Others used phrases such as cultural genocide and compared the US in particular to the Mongol invaders of 13th-century Iraq.

Back in Baghdad there was anger. On April 14, Dr Donny George, the museum's director of research, was distraught. The museum had housed the leading collection of the continuous history of mankind, "And it's gone, and it's lost. If Marines had started [protecting the museum] before, none of this would have happened. It's too late. It's no use. It's no use."

A few weeks later - in London to address a meeting at the British Museum - George was interviewed for this newspaper by Neal Ascherson. George, said Ascherson, did not throw blame around, but did remark that most of the looters responsible for the damage were not educated.

On June 1, George was reported in the German newspaper Welt am Sonntag as reiterating that witnesses had seen US soldiers enter the museum on April 9, stay inside two hours and leave with some objects. When asked whether he believed that the US military and international art thieves had been acting in concert, George replied that a year earlier, at a meeting in a London restaurant, someone (unnamed) had told him that he couldn't wait till he could go inside the National Museum with US soldiers and give it a good pillage - ie, yes.

So, there's the picture: 100,000-plus priceless items looted either under the very noses of the Yanks, or by the Yanks themselves. And the only problem with it is that it's nonsense. It isn't true. It's made up. It's bollocks.

Not all of it, of course. There was some looting and damage to a small number of galleries and storerooms, and that is grievous enough. But over the past six weeks it has gradually become clear that most of the objects which had been on display in the museum galleries were removed before the war. Some of the most valuable went into bank vaults, where they were discovered last week. Eight thousand more have been found in 179 boxes hidden "in a secret vault". And several of the larger and most remarked items seem to have been spirited away long before the Americans arrived in Baghdad.

George is now quoted as saying that that items lost could represent "a small percentage" of the collection and blamed shoddy reporting for the exaggeration.

"There was a mistake," he said. "Someone asked us what is the number of pieces in the whole collection. We said over 170,000, and they took that as the number lost. Reporters came in and saw empty shelves and reached the conclusion that all was gone. But before the war we evacuated all of the small pieces and emptied the showcases except for fragile or heavy material that was difficult to move."

This indictment of world journalism has caused some surprise to those who listened to George and others speak at the British Museum meeting. One art historian, Dr Tom Flynn, now speaks of his "great bewilderment". "Donny George himself had ample opportunity to clarify to the best of [his] knowledge the extent of the looting and the likely number of missing objects," says Flynn. "Is it not a little strange that quite so many journalists went away with the wrong impression, while Mr George made little or not attempt to clarify the context of the figure of 170,000 which he repeated with such regularity and gusto before, during, and after that meeting." To Flynn it is also odd that George didn't seem to know that pieces had been taken into hiding or evacuated. "There is a queasy subtext here if you bother to seek it out," he suggests.

On Sunday night, in a remarkable programme on BBC2, the architectural historian Dan Cruikshank both sought and found. Cruikshank had been to the museum in Baghdad, had inspected the collection, the storerooms, the outbuildings, and had interviewed people who had been present around the time of the looting, including George and some US troops. And Cruikshank was present when, for the first time, US personnel along with Iraqi museum staff broke into the storerooms.

One, which had clearly been used as a sniper point by Ba'ath forces, had also been looted of its best items, although they had been stacked in a far corner. The room had been opened with a key. Another storeroom looked as though the looters had just departed with broken artefacts all over the floor. But this, Cruikshank learned, was the way it had been left by the museum staff. No wonder, he told the viewers - the staff hadn't wanted anyone inside this room. Overall, he concluded, most of the serious looting "was an inside job".

Cruikshank also tackled George directly on events leading up to the looting. The Americans had said that the museum was a substantial point of Iraqi resistance, and this explained their reticence in occupying it. Not true, said George, a few militia-men had fired from the grounds and that was all. This, as Cruikshank heavily implied, was a lie. Not only were there firing positions in the grounds, but at the back of the museum there was a room that seemed to have been used as a military command post. And it was hardly credible that senior staff at the museum would not have known that. Cruikshank's closing thought was to wonder whether the museum's senior staff - all Ba'ath party appointees - could safely be left in post.

Furious, I conclude two things from all this. The first is the credulousness of many western academics and others who cannot conceive that a plausible and intelligent fellow-professional might have been an apparatchiks of a fascist regime and a propagandist for his own past. The second is that - these days - you cannot say anything too bad about the Yanks and not be believed.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,974193,00.html
TheMercenary • Mar 25, 2007 6:26 am
More facts on the Iraqi looting which dispell TW's statement that 60% of the artifacts were looted:

http://www.culturekiosque.com/art/news/baghdadmuseum.html

I could go on but it is pretty clear that the number of 60% is total BS.
Undertoad • Mar 25, 2007 10:48 am
In May 03 I posted a NY Times story that thoroughly debunked the museum looting but it didn't suit tw's imagination of events so he ignored it.
tw • Mar 26, 2007 2:57 am
Undertoad;326165 wrote:
In May 03 I posted a NY Times story that thoroughly debunked the museum looting but it didn't suit tw's imagination of events so he ignored it.
I ignored what was not true. Museum has recently summarized its situation. They lost about 60% of their treasures. Of that, only 20% have been recovered. But back then, UT was posting anything to deny realities in Iraq - even the looting. Rumsfeld was denying looting. Amazed me back in 2003 were the number of otherwise responsible people who believed outright Rumsfeld lies.

That museum looting was massive in direct contradiction to what UT believes. They lost about 60% which numbers tens of thousands of artifacts. But Rumsfeld said looting did not exist. Therefore it must have been true? If Rumsfeld said it, then it is probably a lie until proven otherwise.

Iraqi curators believe they will never find most of what was looted (but is still there according to UT). Facts posted about looting then are still accurate today. Why did I cite that museum looting from 2003? Because the BBC reported on it again last night – complete with numbers.
xoxoxoBruce • Mar 26, 2007 7:34 am
TheMercenary;325964 wrote:
snip~ But he is not always responsible for the idiots under him.
The fuck he's not. He picked 'em and he's most certainly responsible for their and the rest of his administrations actions. Especially when this shit becomes public knowlege and he does nothing about it.

If a few soldiers go nuts the General is most definitely responsible and if he does not correct the situation, he's going down.... especially if he tries to keep it a secret. That football player that got fragged by his own men is the perfect example of Generals going down.......4, IIRC.:apistola:
Undertoad • Mar 26, 2007 8:23 am
I couldn't find any such recent BBC story on the BBC website.

I did find that according to the BBC,
Only the museum staff knows what was in the galleries when the war started. The claim that 170,000 items were destroyed or looted has long been abandoned, and reduced considerably. Also, many items have been recovered. Museum staff say that only 33 major items, and around 2,100 minor items, are missing, while 15 major items in the galleries were seriously damaged. These include the famous 4,500-year-old-harp from Ur, with its fabulous golden bull's head.
...
The storerooms tell a different story again. For many weeks outside observers were kept from seeing them. Dr Jabir would only say they had been looted. Even Matthew Bogdanos, the New York District Attorney and US Marine colonel based at the museum, and heading an investigation into its looting, had trouble gaining access, as US policy was to co-operate with the Iraqi museum authorities, and not to behave in too heavy-handed a manner. Bogdanos operated with admirable restraint, considering the US Army was being increasingly held responsible for what had happened at the museum, but it was clearly in his interest to establish how much had been destroyed, who had conducted the thefts, and how to track down and recover stolen items.

Having persuaded museum staff to allow me access to the five on-site storerooms, we all had something of a surprise. Three were still locked, and looked untouched. The remaining two had been entered, with one not even having been locked. These storerooms were generally not ransacked, but clearly some items had been stolen. It seems that the thieves knew where the most precious objects were, and had made straight for them.


BBC November 03
Artefacts looted from the Baghdad museum following the fall of Saddam Hussein's regime have been recovered in London, police have confirmed for the first time.

The discovery of the items follows enduring images from the museum of smashed display cases, empty vaults and crying staff, when reporters gained access for the first time.

First estimates of the looting suggesting that more than 150,000 items were missing were wildly inaccurate.

The most recent figures indicate all but 10,000 have been recovered.


The Cellar awaits your cites.
xoxoxoBruce • Mar 26, 2007 9:07 am
TheMercenary;326140 wrote:
More facts on the Iraqi looting which dispell TW's statement that 60% of the artifacts were looted:

http://www.culturekiosque.com/art/news/baghdadmuseum.html

I could go on but it is pretty clear that the number of 60% is total BS.
That link shows pretty clearly what the most likely scenario of what actually happened is. Plus believable numbers. Good find. :thumbsup:
TheMercenary • Mar 26, 2007 1:22 pm
xoxoxoBruce;326511 wrote:

If a few soldiers go nuts the General is most definitely responsible and if he does not correct the situation, he's going down.... especially if he tries to keep it a secret. That football player that got fragged by his own men is the perfect example of Generals going down.......4, IIRC.:apistola:
That is because they proved that the generals had known about the event and were part of the supression of the truth. They should go down. In the other cases you can't prove that, so no they were not sacked.

Do you think it was fair to sack the coach of the Lacrosse team at Duke on the now totally unfounded charges of rape on the 4 players? When and where does personal responsibility start and whole scale slaughter of an organization end because of the actions of a few? Our country has a huge problem with personal responsibility, it is always someone elses fault.
Happy Monkey • Mar 26, 2007 1:37 pm
TheMercenary;326606 wrote:
Our country has a huge problem with personal responsibility, it is always someone elses fault.
That's Bush's claim at least.
Beestie • Mar 27, 2007 1:17 am
The FBI which couldn't figure out how to stop 22 known Islamic radicals even after their presence and intentions were repeatedly brought to their attention NOW all the sudden can't stick their collective noses far enough up Joe American's ass as seen here and here.

And this and this and this is what's going on in attorney general Torquemada's office.

Nah, we got nuttin to worry about right, Mercenary? The next lucky bastard who gets shipped off on an all-expense paid year-long trip to the glorious Syrian penal system for some much needed "dental work" could be you.
Griff • Mar 27, 2007 7:14 am
Three years ago, I received a national security letter (NSL) in my capacity as the president of a small Internet access and consulting business. The letter ordered me to provide sensitive information about one of my clients. There was no indication that a judge had reviewed or approved the letter, and it turned out that none had. The letter came with a gag provision that prohibited me from telling anyone, including my client, that the FBI was seeking this information. Based on the context of the demand -- a context that the FBI still won't let me discuss publicly -- I suspected that the FBI was abusing its power and that the letter sought information to which the FBI was not entitled.

Rather than turn over the information, I contacted lawyers at the American Civil Liberties Union, and in April 2004 I filed a lawsuit challenging the constitutionality of the NSL power. I never released the information the FBI sought, and last November the FBI decided that it no longer needs the information anyway. But the FBI still hasn't abandoned the gag order that prevents me from disclosing my experience and concerns with the law or the national security letter that was served on my company. In fact, the government will return to court in the next few weeks to defend the gag orders that are imposed on recipients of these letters


Wow. Just friggin wow. Pretty hard to bring public pressure to bear, when they do this to you.
TheMercenary • Mar 27, 2007 2:57 pm
Beestie;326790 wrote:
The FBI which couldn't figure out how to stop 22 known Islamic radicals even after their presence and intentions were repeatedly brought to their attention NOW all the sudden can't stick their collective noses far enough up Joe American's ass as seen here and here.

If you think that the situation was a simple ID by certain groups around the US and the world you are deluded. But thanks to a previous administration the agencies were prevented from talking to each other and sharing that info. Luckily we now have The Patriot Act which fixed some of those problems.:rattat:
Beestie • Mar 27, 2007 3:38 pm
Luckily we now have The Patriot Act which fixed some of those problems.
What problem? The problem the government has when rights granted us under the Constitution and Bill of Rights impedes their ability to do police work even a moron could do within the parameters of our civil rights?

Fine. Effective immediately, judicial approval of search warrants is no longer required. Warrants will be issued by and executed by local law enforcement without judicial review therefore the entire legal principal of illegal search and seizure has been nullified - no searches can be characterized as illegal since searches are now conducted at the discretion of the police force. Seized property cannot be deemed illegally seized since seizures are conducted at the discretion of local law enforecement.

Now with that pesky requirement out of the way, LET'S GO GET US SOME CRIMINALS!!! WOOOHOOOO!!!!

"Pardon me, miss but I'm going to need to search your house."
"Why?"
"There might be something illegal going on in there which, under the new 'Patriot Act' is a supposition which cannot be legally challenged since there is no threshold for making such a determination."

Tell you what, Mercenary, I'll be in charge of deciding who to apply the provisions of the Patriot Act to. Since the requirement for judicial approval has been voided and since there is no recourse to citizens because their rights against search, seizure and habeus corpus can be suspended at the sole discretion of the government then technically your rights haven't been violated (the right itself has been revoked).

I'll decide who is spied upon. I'll decided who's records are requested without a warrant and I'll prohibit the parties providing the records from acknowledging that they were provided. I'll review them in secret and decide what police action shall be taken against you and I am accountable to no judicial authority.

Is this the world you want to live in? That's what the Patriot Act provides for. And as if that weren't bad enough, the FBI, the CIA, the NSA and other agencies are acting in flagrant violation of it and no one can do anything about it except tell them to stop.

That's not America and anyone who foolishly supports such unchecked revocation of rights afforded us under the Constitution is no American.
Spexxvet • Mar 27, 2007 3:59 pm
TheMercenary;326941 wrote:
... But thanks to a previous administration the agencies were prevented from talking to each other and sharing that info...


I think that was Reagan, IIRC.
TheMercenary • Mar 27, 2007 4:11 pm
Beestie;326963 wrote:

That's not America and anyone who foolishly supports such unchecked revocation of rights afforded us under the Constitution is no American.

I don't buy that hype. It is not unchecked.
TheMercenary • Mar 27, 2007 4:14 pm
.C. Dispatch | April 19, 2005

Legal Affairs | by Stuart Taylor Jr.

Patriot Act Hysteria Meets Reality


The emerging expert consensus contradicts the hype: for the most part, the Patriot Act is a good law
.....

When the Bush administration says it wants to make permanent the freedom-stealing provisions of the PATRIOT Act, they're telling those of us who believe in privacy, due process, and the right to dissent that it's time to surrender our freedom."

So screams the first sentence of a recent fundraising letter from the American Civil Liberties Union. This and countless other overheated attacks—from conservative libertarians and gun-rights activists as well as liberal groups—have scared some 375 local governments and five states into passing anti-PATRIOT Act measures, while sending earnest librarians into a panic about Big Brother snooping into library borrowers' reading habits.

But consider what the ACLU says when it is seeking to be taken seriously by people who know something about the issues: "Most of the voluminous PATRIOT Act is actually unobjectionable from a civil-liberties point of view, and ... the law makes important changes that give law enforcement agents the tools they need to protect against terrorist attacks."

That's right: That was the ACLU talking, in an April 5 press release. To be sure, the release goes on to stress that "a few provisions ... unnecessarily trample civil liberties, and must be revised." Well, perhaps. And with 16 provisions of the USA PATRIOT Act scheduled to sunset on December 31, it is surely time to give the entire 342-page, 156-section law the careful scrutiny that it has not received from most of the legislators who passed it in October 2001.

This is not to deny that the Bush administration has engaged in grave abuses, both at home and abroad, beginning with its unduly prolonged post-9/11 detention and (in many cases) abuse of hundreds of visitors from the Muslim world. Most alarming have been the administration's claims of near-dictatorial wartime powers to seize and interrogate—even to the point of torture—anyone in the world whom the president labels an "enemy combatant."

But contrary to many a newspaper account, these abuses and overreaching claims of power had nothing to with the PATRIOT Act, about which so many people have cried wolf that the real wolves have received less attention than they deserve.

The good news is that with the December 31 sunset approaching, serious thinking has penetrated the previously shallow debate. Anyone interested in reading the best arguments for and against the more controversial provisions can find them at www.PatriotDebates.com, a collection of mini-debates among an ideologically diverse group of 17 experts. The "sourceblog" was put together by Stewart Baker, chair of the American Bar Association's Standing Committee on Law and National Security.

"In several cases, the civil libertarians we recruited to find fault with particular provisions have ended up proposing modification rather than repeal," writes Baker. And amid numerous suggestions for modest tinkering, it turns out that only about six provisions have provoked very spirited debate. This should not be surprising: Much of the act consists of long-overdue amendments—which were on the Clinton Justice Department's wish list well before 9/11—to give government agents pursuing terrorists and spies the same investigative tools that are available to those pursuing ordinary criminals, and to counteract the bad guys' use of new technologies such as e-mail and disposable cellphones.

The most widely denounced provision is Section 215, one of the 16 that will sunset unless re-enacted. It is commonly known as the "library" provision because it might someday be used to obtain library records—even though, as the Justice Department reported on April 5, it never has been so used and does not even contain the word "library." Section 215 authorizes the FBI to obtain an order from a special court, established under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, to require any business or other entity to surrender any records or other "tangible things" that the FBI claims to be relevant to an intelligence investigation.

This power is undeniably sweeping. But it is almost certainly constitutional under Supreme Court rulings that allow, for example, the government to see your credit card records. And it is far less invasive of privacy than, say, a wiretap. What many critics ignore is that for decades, prosecutors have had even more-sweeping powers to issue subpoenas requiring businesses and organizations, including libraries and medical facilities, to hand over any records that are arguably relevant to ordinary criminal investigations. Such subpoenas have been routinely issued without prior judicial scrutiny for many years.

Critics complain that a Section 215 order can apply to records pertaining to people not suspected of being foreign agents. (The same is true of an ordinary subpoena.) But this is as it should be. A key technique for catching terrorists is to trace their activities through those of associates who are not themselves engaged, or known to be engaged, in terrorist activities.

This is not to say that Section 215 is flawless. Most obviously, it fails to specify any way for a recipient of an unwarranted or overly broad order to ask a court to reject or narrow the order. Even Attorney General Alberto Gonzales has conceded that this is a defect that should be cured.

Gonzales, in this and other ways, including his April 13 meeting with ACLU Executive Director Anthony Romero, has responded to critics far more constructively than his predecessor, John Ashcroft, ever did.

Critics, including Peter Swire, a law professor at Ohio State University who is the Section 215 critic on PatriotDebates.com, also make a strong case that a gag-order provision in Section 215 is unduly sweeping. This provision automatically bars recipients from disclosing Section 215 orders to the media or to anyone else, ever. The purpose is to prevent terrorists from learning that the government is on their trail. But the absolute and perpetual nature of the gag orders eliminates a key check on possible abuse. Swire proposes several limitations. At least one seems worthy of adoption: The gag orders should expire after six months unless extended by the FISA court.

he other major target of civil libertarians is Section 213, which authorizes so-called "sneak-and-peek" warrants for what the government calls "delayed-notice" searches. Ordinarily, search warrants must be served on the subjects at the time of a search. Section 213, which is not among the provisions scheduled to sunset, recognizes several exceptions, allowing judges to delay notice of a search until after a search is already completed, when the government shows that delay may be necessary to avoid: 1) endangering life or physical safety, 2) flight from prosecution, 3) tampering with evidence, 4) intimidation of witnesses, or 5) "otherwise seriously jeopardizing an investigation or unduly delaying a trial." This last is the so-called catch-all provision.

Amid a deluge of misleading scare rhetoric about FBI agents rummaging through bedrooms and covering their tracks, most critics have ignored the fact that Section 213's main impact is to codify what courts have done for decades when necessary to avoid blowing the secrecy that is critical to some investigations.

Critics complain that Section 213 was enacted under a false flag, because sneak and-peek searches in terrorism investigations had already been authorized by FISA. The provision's main impact, they say, has been to make it easier for agents to obtain sneak-and-peek warrants in ordinary criminal investigations. This is true. It's also true that a strong case can be made for revising Section 213 to require notice of an ordinary criminal-investigation search within, say, seven days unless the court authorizes further delay. And it's arguable that the catchall provision makes it too easy to get a sneak-and peek warrant.

But on the scale of threats to liberty, Section 213 ranks far, far below such widely ignored laws as, for example, the five-year mandatory minimum prison sentence for possessing five grams of crack cocaine.

The debates over the other four most controversial provisions—which cover three subject areas: "roving wiretaps," information-sharing between criminal and intelligence investigators, and prosecutions of people for providing terrorists with "material support"—also boil down to plausible arguments for and against relatively modest adjustments in the liberty-security balance.

Many libertarians have united behind the proposed SAFE Act, a package of revisions that would probably be of no great harm to the war on terrorism and no great benefit to civil liberties. But at a time of domestic security threats more dire than in any period since the Civil War—threats posed by jihadists who have a chillingly realistic hope of buying or making doomsday weapons that could kill us by the millions—most of these proposals strike me as small steps in the wrong direction.

But even if I'm incorrect about that, the big news is that for all the Sturm und Drang, we may be seeing the emergence of a remarkable expert consensus: For the most part, the USA PATRIOT Act is a good law.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200504u/nj_taylor_2005-04-19
Happy Monkey • Mar 27, 2007 4:30 pm
TheMercenary;326987 wrote:
I don't buy that hype. It is not unchecked.

The current "check" appears to be "congressional investigation if and only if Democrats are in power" (this morning). Something more systematic is called for.

Like, for example, warrants.
BigV • Mar 27, 2007 4:45 pm
So, it was
"a few provisions ... unnecessarily trample civil liberties, and must be revised."
overreaching,

Critics complain that Section 213 was enacted under a false flag, because sneak and-peek searches in terrorism investigations had already been authorized by FISA. The provision's main impact, they say, has been to make it easier for agents to obtain sneak-and-peek warrants in ordinary criminal investigations. This is true.
redundant,
Amid a deluge of misleading scare rhetoric (:lol2: --sorry, couldn't help myself) about FBI agents rummaging through bedrooms and covering their tracks,
ripe for abuse,
April 19, 2005
TWO YEARS AGO, and yet you're still straining and failing to justify its usefulness and benevolence?! Are you incapable of learning? My God, man, use your head. Look around you. Read a little more.

The strength of our systems, governmental and judicial, among others, is drawn largely from the twin virtues of checks and balances and openness. These two pillars of our national heritage are squarely in the crosshairs of the misleadingly titled "PATRIOT" Act. How can we say we've protected America by becoming what America is not--secretive, closed, arbitrary?
TheMercenary • Mar 27, 2007 8:58 pm
BigV;327001 wrote:
So, it was overreaching,redundant,ripe for abuse, TWO YEARS AGO, and yet you're still straining and failing to justify its usefulness and benevolence?! Are you incapable of learning? My God, man, use your head. Look around you. Read a little more.

The strength of our systems, governmental and judicial, among others, is drawn largely from the twin virtues of checks and balances and openness. These two pillars of our national heritage are squarely in the crosshairs of the misleadingly titled "PATRIOT" Act. How can we say we've protected America by becoming what America is not--secretive, closed, arbitrary?
Sorry my friend, changes needed to be made. I don't think that I or our system have anything to worry about.
Happy Monkey • Mar 27, 2007 9:40 pm
"Changes needed to be made! These are changes! Therefore these needed to be made!"
TheMercenary • Mar 27, 2007 9:56 pm
Happy Monkey;327106 wrote:
"Changes needed to be made! These are changes! Therefore these needed to be made!"

You are from Monty Python aren't you? I knew I had seen you somewhere.
:celebrat:
richlevy • Mar 27, 2007 10:33 pm
Well, in theory anyone served with a national security letter can tell their congressman since the law states that Congress will be kept informed.

This however, is probably not the case since the reality is that the law is designed to keep everyone in the dark.
tw • Mar 27, 2007 11:30 pm
Always remember why a Patriot Act was created. Because so many ongoing investigations that could have stopped 11 September were quashed by George Jr administration people. That is a fact as even demonstrated by a picture on the front cover of Time Magazine AND where this nation's #1 anti-terrorist investigator died.

Rather than fix the wackos in George Jr's adminstration, we created Fatherland Security provisions, wiretapping of anyone, suspended writ of Habeas Corpus, and orange alerts for terrorists that never existed.

When the president had intelligence, current laws were more than sufficient to stop every terrorist attack. So why does the Patriot Act exist?
TheMercenary • Mar 27, 2007 11:43 pm
tw;327193 wrote:
Always remember why a Patriot Act was created. Because so many ongoing investigations that could have stopped 11 September were quashed by George Jr administration people.
Conspiracy Theory Bull Shit Alarm

TW, I found your picture.
Image
tw • Mar 28, 2007 12:25 am
Always remember why a Patriot Act was created. Because so many ongoing investigations that could have stopped 11 September were quashed by George Jr administration people. That is a fact as even demonstrated by a picture on the front cover of Time Magazine AND where this nation's #1 anti-terrorist investigator died.

Rather than fix the wackos in George Jr's adminstration, we created Fatherland Security provisions, wiretapping of anyone, suspended writ of Habeas Corpus, and orange alerts for terrorists that never existed.

When the president had intelligence, current laws were more than sufficient to stop every terrorist attack. So why does the Patriot Act exist?
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 12:38 am
tw;327205 wrote:
Always remember why a Patriot Act was created. Because so many ongoing investigations that could have stopped 11 September were quashed by George Jr administration people.

BS till you post an original source citation. Get off your conspiacy theory horsey.

Image
Spexxvet • Mar 28, 2007 9:32 am
TheMercenary;327069 wrote:
Sorry my friend, changes needed to be made. I don't think that I or our system have anything to worry about.


The next change will be rectal searches with a pitchfork. You first, Mercy.
Sundae • Mar 28, 2007 9:40 am
I have tears running down my face at the picture of the man on the horse.
I've had to come out of the thread and come back in again because it made me laugh so much first time.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Now, carry on.
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 10:14 am
Spexxvet;327275 wrote:
The next change will be rectal searches with a pitchfork. You first, Mercy.


Sorry, I'm the one that owns the pitch fork. So that will never happen.:blush:
Happy Monkey • Mar 28, 2007 11:11 am
Not after it's removed from your premises without a warrant, and then introduced to your gluteus without a trial.
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 11:27 am
Happy Monkey;327332 wrote:
Not after it's removed from your premises without a warrant, and then introduced to your gluteus without a trial.


I knew those liberals were going to pass pitch fork registration and seziure sooner or later. They did pass anti-pitch fork attachment legislation for my rifle once already, so I am really not surprised they would try to take them away eventually. Thank God I have more than one.
BigV • Mar 28, 2007 5:26 pm
TheMercenary;327346 wrote:
I knew those liberals were going to pass pitch fork registration and seziure sooner or later. They did pass anti-pitch fork attachment legislation for my rifle once already, so I am really not surprised they would try to take them away eventually. Thank God I have more than one.
So you believe you have the right to your pitchfork. You probably justify this opinion with this:
The Constitution of the United States of America wrote:

Amendment II (1791)
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
I agree that this one is important, but why would you believe that warrantless searches are ok? Isn't that covered in the same document:
The Constitution of the United States of America wrote:
Amendment IV (1791)
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
How can you say the first one is worthy and this one's not?! Who are you to decide which parts of the Constitution are worthy of respect and obedience and which are not?

I have another news flash for you. You can't delegate it away from me either. Just because *you* wish to surrender your rights, doesn't mean you surrender *my* rights. Here's why:
The Constitution of the United States of America wrote:
Amendment IX (1791)
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Amendment X (1791)
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.


The Mercenary wrote:
I don't buy that hype. It is not unchecked.

What part of warrantless searches do you not understand?
The Mercenary wrote:

I don't think that I or our system have anything to worry about.
You've identified the root cause of the problem.
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 5:37 pm
"unreasonable searches" key word here... I don't find them to be unreasonable at this point.

"How can you say the first one is worthy and this one's not?! Who are you to decide which parts of the Constitution are worthy of respect and obedience and which are not?" Who are you to say they are or are not? No better than me in that respect, eh?

"What part of warrantless searches do you not understand?" What part of 9/11 do you not understand? What part of terrorism do you not understand? Exactly how often have you traveled to parts of the world where your life is in danger because you are an American before 9/11? What do you do for a living that you feel soooo protected by the ills of people who really do want to kill you and your family and everything about you? It is people that think like you that got us into this mess in the first place and now that concrete steps are taken to change that and prevent future loss you want to dial back the clock. I got news for ya, it ain't happening. Well unless of course Hitlery Clit on is elected and then the Dems will certainly have all the control they desired, and all of the responsibility to keep you safe. Good luck on that last one. :rolleyes:
Happy Monkey • Mar 28, 2007 5:49 pm
TheMercenary;327582 wrote:
"What part of warrantless searches do you not understand?" What part of 9/11 do you not understand? What part of terrorism do you not understand?
So the feds were waiting on a warrant when the planes took off on 9-11? If only they had some way to act immediately and get a retroactive warrant 72 hours later...
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 6:00 pm
Happy Monkey;327587 wrote:
So the feds were waiting on a warrant when the planes took off on 9-11? If only they had some way to act immediately and get a retroactive warrant 72 hours later...


My friend. If you think that 9/11 was the first time we were engaged in trying to find, hunt down, capture, or kill terrorists around the world you have some schooling to do.
Ibby • Mar 28, 2007 6:01 pm
If the terrorists have you in such dire fear for your safety that they are changing your actions, making you give up rights, making you do things that you shouldn't, making you terrified...

They've won.
Happy Monkey • Mar 28, 2007 6:02 pm
TheMercenary;327593 wrote:
My friend. If you think that 9/11 was the first time we were engaged in trying to find, hunt down, capture, or kill terrorists around the world you have some schooling to do.
Relevance?
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 6:06 pm
Ibram;327594 wrote:
If the terrorists have you in such dire fear for your safety that they are changing your actions, making you give up rights, making you do things that you shouldn't, making you terrified...

They've won.


Where did you gather those conlusions. If you are not a little more worried since 9/11 then you are complacent. I am quite comfortable, relaxed, and know that there are a lot of things going on in the world outside our borders by very dedicated individuals who are making sure that we never have a repeat.;) My actions have not changed and my rights have not been taken away. On the contrary you have been sold a bill of goods that have made you fear and become terrified that you have lost something you have not. Answer me this, any of you, specifically what has happened DIRECTLY to you where you have lost a right? Anything. Anybody.
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 6:06 pm
Happy Monkey;327595 wrote:
Relevance?

Your ignorance about the world around you outside your current life.
Happy Monkey • Mar 28, 2007 6:14 pm
Incorrect.

But what is the relevance of the prior terrorist investigations? Were they too busy to get a FISA warrant, too?
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 6:17 pm
Happy Monkey;327603 wrote:
Incorrect.

But what is the relevance of the prior terrorist investigations? Were they too busy to get a FISA warrant, too?


I have no idea and neither do you. I know that they were conducted and actively chased, and in many cases captured. The dicotomy here is that people whine because of 9/11 and then they whine because actions were taken to prevent another 9/11, you can't have it both ways.
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 6:18 pm
So HM, specifically what has happened DIRECTLY to you where you have lost a right? Anything.
Happy Monkey • Mar 28, 2007 6:19 pm
I need legal standing to discuss a political issue?
Spexxvet • Mar 28, 2007 6:19 pm
...How can you say the first one is worthy and this one's not?! ...


*cough*he'sahypocrit*cough*
Happy Monkey • Mar 28, 2007 6:20 pm
TheMercenary;327604 wrote:
I have no idea and neither do you. I know that they were conducted and actively chased, and in many cases captured.
And they did it with warrants. Great! Let's go back to that.
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 6:23 pm
Happy Monkey;327609 wrote:
And they did it with warrants. Great! Let's go back to that.


No, lets not deviate. HM, specifically what has happened DIRECTLY to you where you have lost a right? Anything. Come on, your rights are so under attack, describe your personal loss.
Spexxvet • Mar 28, 2007 6:26 pm
TheMercenary;327611 wrote:
No, lets not deviate. HM, specifically what has happened DIRECTLY to you where you have lost a right? Anything. Come on, your rights are so under attack, describe your personal loss.


That's silly. It's like asking you "what terrorism has specifically happened to you, that you're willing to give up these rights?"
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 6:26 pm
Spexxvet;327612 wrote:
That's silly. It's like asking you "what terrorism has specifically happened to you, that you're willing to give up these rights?"


9/11. Direct loss.
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 6:28 pm
Spexxvet;327612 wrote:
That's silly. It's like asking you "what terrorism has specifically happened to you, that you're willing to give up these rights?"

Same for you SPEX, specifically what has happened DIRECTLY to you where you have lost a right? Anything. Come on, your rights are so under attack, describe your personal loss. Anything??? I really want to know how you have been personally affected. Come on, I am open to hear your stories.
Spexxvet • Mar 28, 2007 6:29 pm
TheMercenary;327613 wrote:
9/11. Direct loss.


You died?
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 6:32 pm
Spexxvet;327615 wrote:
You died?
You are so funny!:rotflol:
Spexxvet • Mar 28, 2007 6:35 pm
TheMercenary;327614 wrote:
Same for you SPEX, specifically what has happened DIRECTLY to you where you have lost a right? Anything. Come on, your rights are so under attack, describe your personal loss. Anything??? I really want to know how you have been personally affected. Come on, I am open to hear your stories.


How can I know? They're doing it in SECRET! That's the point. No justification, no probable cause, no court approval, nothing. For all I know, they've gotten all my records about everyfuckingthing I've done through my entire life. After all, I am impotent....er...important.

Why don't you ask the lawyer in the northwest US who was arrested for the Madrid bombings.:banghead:
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 6:35 pm
Come on fellas, nothing. No personal loss of any kind? :eek:
Happy Monkey • Mar 28, 2007 6:38 pm
TheMercenary;327611 wrote:
No, lets not deviate. HM, specifically what has happened DIRECTLY to you where you have lost a right? Anything. Come on, your rights are so under attack, describe your personal loss.


Happy Monkey;327607 wrote:
I need legal standing to discuss a political issue?
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 6:38 pm
Spexxvet;327617 wrote:
How can I know? They're doing it in SECRET! That's the point. No justification, no probable cause, no court approval, nothing. For all I know, they've gotten all my records about everyfuckingthing I've done through my entire life. After all, I am impotent....er...important.

Why don't you ask the lawyer in the northwest US who was arrested for the Madrid bombings.:banghead:

Well I would say that you are guessing, that in some way you are just "terrified" that something has happened to you, but you really don't know if something has or not. But because you heard that the government was evesdropping on calls that originated from outside the US into the US, on suspected terrorist activity that now you are worried. Hmmmmmm.....:rolleyes:
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 6:39 pm
Happy Monkey;327619 wrote:


So you basically have nothing and are just "terrified" as well that something has happened and you really just don't know it. Ok. :rolleyes:
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 6:40 pm
:violin:

:violin:


:violin:



:violin:




:violin:
Happy Monkey • Mar 28, 2007 6:40 pm
Whether it happens to me is irrellevant. It is happening. It has been admitted.
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 6:45 pm
Happy Monkey;327625 wrote:
Whether it happens to me is irrellevant. It is happening. It has been admitted.


It is most rellevent because it is not happening you. It is happening to others who are under suspicion . What is rellevent is that you are not and have not been affected. Have you? But you fear it. The big bad brother is coming after you and your terrorist friends right??? I doubt it. The point is you are not and have not been affected by any of this. You are drinking way to much of the electric kool aid. Go back to water.;) Your fears are unfounded.
Happy Monkey • Mar 28, 2007 6:46 pm
I never said they were after me. I said they are breaking the law.
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 6:47 pm
Happy Monkey;327630 wrote:
I never said they were after me. I said they are breaking the law.


And I say you can't prove that, nor can anyone else.
Happy Monkey • Mar 28, 2007 6:47 pm
They admitted it.
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 6:52 pm
Happy Monkey;327632 wrote:
They admitted it.


Original source citation please.
Happy Monkey • Mar 28, 2007 7:01 pm
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14393611/

Warrantless wiretaps are illegal inside the US. They admitted using warrantless wiretaps inside the US. There are emergency workarounds in the form of the FISA court. They did not follow that law.

http://www.postchronicle.com/news/breakingnews/article_21271655.shtml

Warrantless/subpoenaless searches are illegal. They have an end-run around this in the form of "national security letters" which are supposed to be used for emergencies. But they broke the law even in their workaround.
BigV • Mar 28, 2007 7:14 pm
Ibram;327594 wrote:
If the terrorists have you in such dire fear for your safety that they are changing your actions, making you give up rights, making you do things that you shouldn't, making you terrified...

They've won.
You're goddamn skippy!
BigV • Mar 28, 2007 7:21 pm
Hey, TheMercenary--

I have to leave for a while, but please don't go away. You and I disagree completely on this subject, and I want to talk with you about it here in this forum. I'd love to hear your side of the story, your reasoning. Because I do not understand how an otherwise reasonable sounding person can be convinced of some of the postitions you've stated here. But tomorrow for me. Y'all keep on tawkin amongst yourselves, m'kay? But don't drive him off.
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 7:22 pm
Ok now we are finally at the meat of the matter. The ACLU got one judge to stop the wiretaps. This does not make them illegal because it would need to go to the Supreme Court for that final ruling. Only the ACLU, through one judge, said so. Do you follow the appeals of the 9th Circuit Court out on the Left Coast much? Do you know how many of those rulings are overturned?

Your "they" is the ACLU???

So Muller appears on Capitol Hill under fire from the Dems. Ok, no problem there. Mistakes in the issuing of letters by the FBI for information were made. Nothing to do with wire taps there sparky.

The difference is that you are willing to let a few, say 9 or 10, terrorists slip through the cracks because you feel your rights are being violated, even though we have pretty much proven that none of your personal rights have been violated, while I am willing to let the Federal Government snoop around the people they suspect of wrong doing at the chance that a few people may be inconvenienced, and capture the 9 or 10 terrorists.
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 7:22 pm
BigV;327650 wrote:
Hey, TheMercenary--

I have to leave for a while, but please don't go away. You and I disagree completely on this subject, and I want to talk with you about it here in this forum. I'd love to hear your side of the story, your reasoning. Because I do not understand how an otherwise reasonable sounding person can be convinced of some of the postitions you've stated here. But tomorrow for me. Y'all keep on tawkin amongst yourselves, m'kay? But don't drive him off.

Nobody will be driving me off skippy.
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 7:32 pm
Oppppssss... I guess they are back in business after all! :D

US DOJ: Surveillance program now court-approved
NSA wiretapping program to be replaced by a FISA program that requires court approval



By Grant Gross, IDG News Service

January 17, 2007


A controversial surveillance program to wiretap telephone and Internet communications in and out of the U.S. will now fall under the jurisdiction of a U.S. court, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) said Wednesday.



A judge with the secret U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA) on Jan. 10 authorized the U.S. government to wiretap phone or Internet communications involving suspected members of al Qaeda or other terrorist organizations, the DOJ said. The FISA-approved surveillance would replace the Terrorist Surveillance Program at the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA), authorized by U.S. President George Bush in 2002 to create wiretaps without court-issued warrants.

The FISA ruling will allow the surveillance program to essentially continue as it has, only with court approval, a senior DOJ official said. Under the NSA program, U.S. agents were allowed to wiretap Internet and telephone communications into and out of the U.S. in which one participant was suspected to be linked to al Qaeda.

Civil liberties groups had protested the NSA program, saying its lack of court oversight violated the U.S. Constitution. The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) has filed a lawsuit against AT&T for allegedly participating in the NSA program, and in August, a U.S. district judge in Michigan ruled the NSA program was illegal.

Bush is "committed to using all lawful tools to protect our nation from the terrorist threat," U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales wrote in a Wednesday letter to members of the U.S. Congress. "Although ... the Terrorist Surveillance Program fully complies with the law, the orders the government has obtained will allow the necessary speed and agility while providing substantial advantages," Gonzales wrote.

Bush will not reauthorize the old NSA program when it expires sometime in the next 45 days, the senior DOJ official, who requested anonymity, said Wednesday. But the FISA-authorized program will have the same capability as the old program, the official said.

The FISA court will approve wiretap requests for 90 days at a time, the DOJ official said. The court will have authority to review individual wiretap requests, but the DOJ official declined to provide specific information about how the FISA program will work.

Bush administration officials denied that the FISA court acted to provide political and legal cover for the NSA program, but the DOJ official said the FISA ruling will allow Congress to step back and look at the wiretap program without legal questions hanging over it. The FISA ruling "should take some of the political heat off the debate," the DOJ official said.

The EFF didn't have an immediate comment on the FISA decision.

http://www.infoworld.com/archives/emailPrint.jsp?R=printThis&A=/article/07/01/17/HNsurveillanceapproved_1.html
Happy Monkey • Mar 28, 2007 7:38 pm
TheMercenary;327651 wrote:
Ok now we are finally at the meat of the matter. The ACLU got one judge to stop the wiretaps. This does not make them illegal because it would need to go to the Supreme Court for that final ruling.
No, warrantless wiretaps are inherently illegal. The judge just confirmed it.
So Muller appears on Capitol Hill under fire from the Dems. Ok, no problem there. Mistakes in the issuing of letters by the FBI for information were made. Nothing to do with wire taps there sparky.
I never said it was, as you could discover by reading the paragraph I wrote immediately after the link. They have not confined their illegal activities to wiretaps.
The difference is that you are willing to let a few, say 9 or 10, terrorists slip through the cracks because you feel your rights are being violated,
Nope.
even though we have pretty much proven that none of your personal rights have been violated,
Nope. Nothing of the sort has been proven. It is, however, irrelevant.
while I am willing to let the Federal Government snoop around the people they suspect of wrong doing at the chance that a few people may be inconvenienced, and capture the 9 or 10 terrorists.
Suspicion is enough to negate the need for warrants and subpoenas? Why have warrants and subpoenas at all, then?
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 7:46 pm
Happy Monkey;327657 wrote:
No, warrantless wiretaps are inherently illegal. The judge just confirmed it.
I never said it was, as you could discover by reading the paragraph I wrote immediately after the link. They have not confined their illegal activities to wiretaps.
Nope.
Nope. Nothing of the sort has been proven. It is, however, irrelevant.Suspicion is enough to negate the need for warrants and subpoenas? Why have warrants and subpoenas at all, then?


You need to read the above article. The wiretaps go on. They found away around it. The letters from the FBI are perfectly legal. None of it is irrelevent and you have not been affected. I do suspect that acts have been thwarted, and I may not be able to prove it, I trust that it has.
Happy Monkey • Mar 28, 2007 8:06 pm
TheMercenary;327655 wrote:
Oppppssss... I guess they are back in business after all! :D

US DOJ: Surveillance program now court-approved
NSA wiretapping program to be replaced by a FISA program that requires court approval



By Grant Gross, IDG News Service

January 17, 2007


A controversial surveillance program to wiretap telephone and Internet communications in and out of the U.S. will now fall under the jurisdiction of a U.S. court, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) said Wednesday.



A judge with the secret U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court (FISA) on Jan. 10 authorized the U.S. government to wiretap phone or Internet communications involving suspected members of al Qaeda or other terrorist organizations, the DOJ said. The FISA-approved surveillance would replace the Terrorist Surveillance Program at the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA), authorized by U.S. President George Bush in 2002 to create wiretaps without court-issued warrants.

The FISA ruling will allow the surveillance program to essentially continue as it has, only with court approval, a senior DOJ official said. Under the NSA program, U.S. agents were allowed to wiretap Internet and telephone communications into and out of the U.S. in which one participant was suspected to be linked to al Qaeda.

Civil liberties groups had protested the NSA program, saying its lack of court oversight violated the U.S. Constitution. The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) has filed a lawsuit against AT&T for allegedly participating in the NSA program, and in August, a U.S. district judge in Michigan ruled the NSA program was illegal.

Bush is "committed to using all lawful tools to protect our nation from the terrorist threat," U.S. Attorney General Alberto Gonzales wrote in a Wednesday letter to members of the U.S. Congress. "Although ... the Terrorist Surveillance Program fully complies with the law, the orders the government has obtained will allow the necessary speed and agility while providing substantial advantages," Gonzales wrote.

Bush will not reauthorize the old NSA program when it expires sometime in the next 45 days, the senior DOJ official, who requested anonymity, said Wednesday. But the FISA-authorized program will have the same capability as the old program, the official said.

The FISA court will approve wiretap requests for 90 days at a time, the DOJ official said. The court will have authority to review individual wiretap requests, but the DOJ official declined to provide specific information about how the FISA program will work.

Bush administration officials denied that the FISA court acted to provide political and legal cover for the NSA program, but the DOJ official said the FISA ruling will allow Congress to step back and look at the wiretap program without legal questions hanging over it. The FISA ruling "should take some of the political heat off the debate," the DOJ official said.

The EFF didn't have an immediate comment on the FISA decision.

http://www.infoworld.com/archives/emailPrint.jsp?R=printThis&A=/article/07/01/17/HNsurveillanceapproved_1.html

It's not perfect, but it's better. The court ought to have the obligation, not the authority, to review requests. Hopefully it's sloppy reporting.
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 9:10 pm
And the beat goes on....
richlevy • Mar 28, 2007 9:31 pm
Happy Monkey;327668 wrote:
It's not perfect, but it's better. The court ought to have the obligation, not the authority, to review requests. Hopefully it's sloppy reporting.
Actually, from the article I'm not clear if the judge just hasn't given blanket approval, such as "I approve of you wiretapping anyone you think is a terrorist".
TheMercenary • Mar 28, 2007 9:36 pm
richlevy;327693 wrote:
Actually, from the article I'm not clear if the judge just hasn't given blanket approval, such as "I approve of you wiretapping anyone you think is a terrorist".


That is how I read it. The difference being that it is for 90 days and the agency just needs to come back and reapply.
tw • Mar 29, 2007 12:50 am
TheMercenary;327582 wrote:
do you not understand?" What part of 9/11 do you not understand? What part of terrorism do you not understand? Exactly how often have you traveled to parts of the world where your life is in danger because you are an American before 9/11?
The only reason Americans were in danger is because the president had the same grasp and intelligence you are posting. Good Americans know of the so many FBI investigations quashed by the George Jr administration - in AZ, MN, IL, NY, and the international one lead by O'Neill. All were quashed by people who knew no such threat existed. Why does TheMercenary deny this? He had a political objective that also advocates Nazi like "Where are your papers".

Meanwhile Maine, Wyoming, and (forgot the third state) have passed laws in rebellion to what TheMercenary now requires.

Whether you drive or not, you must have these papers. No access to airlines, government offices, etc without these new mandated papers. Is an officer stops you one the street and you don't have your papers, then the office can take you in for an identity check. This is the new laws now being instituted because THEY see enemies everywhere ... just like TheMercenary.

Four separate FBI investigations on the trail of 11 September actors were quashed by the George Jr administration. That's not conspiracy. That's published facts.

And the Chicago agents were not told to stop investigating. They were yelled at, "You will not open an investigation." Both agents waited to retire before they would take interviews on how their investigation was terminated.

Meanwhile TheMercenary calls this a conspiracy theory only because it exposes his political agenda as Nazi like "Where are your papers" mentality. Those threats only exist in his fears.

BTW, did you know that horse you were riding was not real? Just asking because of your love for George Jr.
tw • Mar 29, 2007 12:55 am
Wiretapping without judicial review is illegal. And that is what was happening startig when the Attorney General that advocates torture also fears all these mythcal terrrorists. Why is he there? Notice the denials from another that fears - TheMercenary. No wonder he so likes the same things that Dick Cheney advocates including more Executive powers and freedom to kidnap anyone anywhere in the world.
TheMercenary • Mar 29, 2007 8:46 am
tw;327740 wrote:
The only reason Americans were in danger is because the president had the same grasp and intelligence you are posting. Good Americans know of the so many FBI investigations quashed by the George Jr administration - in AZ, MN, IL, NY, and the international one lead by O'Neill. All were quashed by people who knew no such threat existed. Why does TheMercenary deny this? He had a political objective that also advocates Nazi like "Where are your papers".

Meanwhile Maine, Wyoming, and (forgot the third state) have passed laws in rebellion to what TheMercenary now requires.

Whether you drive or not, you must have these papers. No access to airlines, government offices, etc without these new mandated papers. Is an officer stops you one the street and you don't have your papers, then the office can take you in for an identity check. This is the new laws now being instituted because THEY see enemies everywhere ... just like TheMercenary.

Four separate FBI investigations on the trail of 11 September actors were quashed by the George Jr administration. That's not conspiracy. That's published facts.

And the Chicago agents were not told to stop investigating. They were yelled at, "You will not open an investigation." Both agents waited to retire before they would take interviews on how their investigation was terminated.

Meanwhile TheMercenary calls this a conspiracy theory only because it exposes his political agenda as Nazi like "Where are your papers" mentality. Those threats only exist in his fears.

BTW, did you know that horse you were riding was not real? Just asking because of your love for George Jr.


What bullshit. You really need to stop getting your news from PrisonPlanet.com or AntiWar.com. Get off your conspiracy horse and come back to reality. Now show me your papers!

Image
TheMercenary • Mar 29, 2007 8:48 am
tw;327742 wrote:
Wiretapping without judicial review is illegal. And that is what was happening startig when the Attorney General that advocates torture also fears all these mythcal terrrorists. Why is he there? Notice the denials from another that fears - TheMercenary. No wonder he so likes the same things that Dick Cheney advocates including more Executive powers and freedom to kidnap anyone anywhere in the world.
I think you are an illegal alien. So since I think that your opinion of what goes on in this country is mute.
Griff • Mar 29, 2007 9:39 am
TheMercenary;327628 wrote:
It is most rellevent because it is not happening you. It is happening to others who are under suspicion . What is rellevent is that you are not and have not been affected. Have you? But you fear it. The big bad brother is coming after you and your terrorist friends right??? I doubt it. The point is you are not and have not been affected by any of this. You are drinking way to much of the electric kool aid. Go back to water.;) Your fears are unfounded.


Please read what you've written as if it is 1933.

The reason it is different from 1933 is that people are willing to stand up for everybodies' rights, not just their own. The Bush administration got in the fear business after 911 and started to roll back Constitutionaly protected rights. They are being stopped. If you are still scared, get a dog.
TheMercenary • Mar 29, 2007 9:48 am
Griff;327802 wrote:
Please read what you've written as if it is 1933.

The reason it is different from 1933 is that people are willing to stand up for everybodies' rights, not just their own. The Bush administration got in the fear business after 911 and started to roll back Constitutionaly protected rights. They are being stopped. If you are still scared, get a dog.


Once again, I am not afraid of anything because I know that some really dedicated people are out there doing the good work hunting down the people who want to harm us. I will not support hamstringing their good work.
TheMercenary • Mar 29, 2007 9:48 am
Oh, and I have 4 dogs.
Griff • Mar 29, 2007 9:52 am
TheMercenary;327808 wrote:
Oh, and I have 4 dogs.


It appears you need a bigger one.
TheMercenary • Mar 29, 2007 10:05 am
Griff;327810 wrote:
It appears you need a bigger one.

Bigger is not always better. :shotgun::shocking:

:D :D
Happy Monkey • Mar 29, 2007 11:14 am
TheMercenary;327807 wrote:
Once again, I am not afraid of anything because I know that some really dedicated people are out there doing the good work hunting down the people who want to harm us. I will not support hamstringing their good work.
So why not eliminate warrants altogether? Or is the NSA the only organization made up entirely of saints, requiring no oversight?
TheMercenary • Mar 29, 2007 11:24 am
Happy Monkey;327876 wrote:
So why not eliminate warrants altogether? Or is the NSA the only organization made up entirely of saints, requiring no oversight?


Makes no difference to me, really I don't care. The NSA should not be feared by the American public.
Happy Monkey • Mar 29, 2007 11:26 am
OK, so you just don't see a need for the concept of a warrant. I guess that's as far as this conversation can go.
elSicomoro • Mar 29, 2007 11:31 am
April's uncle used to work for the NSA in the 80s. Then he flipped out when his wife left him and disappeared. Apparently, the FBI and CIA came here looking for him. Eventually, they found him on the side of a road in Virginia, naked, his car ablaze. He now collects disability and lives in a small apartment near April's mom's house.
piercehawkeye45 • Mar 29, 2007 11:41 am
TheMercenary;327807 wrote:
Once again, I am not afraid of anything because I know that some really dedicated people are out there doing the good work hunting down the people who want to harm us. I will not support hamstringing their good work.

What makes you think they want to hurt us? A good versus evil world is just an illusion. If they do anything to hurt us it is probably because we did something very bad to them.
TheMercenary • Mar 29, 2007 11:44 am
piercehawkeye45;327903 wrote:
What makes you think they want to hurt us? A good versus evil world is just an illusion. If they do anything to hurt us it is probably because we did something very bad to them.
Haven't travelled much have you.
:rolleyes:

If that is your fantasy world of the nice big old world have at it.
Undertoad • Mar 29, 2007 11:44 am
What an awesome way to collect disability! That's using yer head.

Naked is good, too, that way when they take you, they won't shoot you thinking you're concealing something.

The car fire seems a bit over the top though.
glatt • Mar 29, 2007 11:46 am
Happy Monkey;327888 wrote:
OK, so you just don't see a need for the concept of a warrant. I guess that's as far as this conversation can go.


He will change his tune when the Executive branch flips back to the Democrats. Then it will be like the old days when all you heard about was the horrors of Ruby Ridge and Waco.
TheMercenary • Mar 29, 2007 11:49 am
glatt;327913 wrote:
He will change his tune when the Executive branch flips back to the Democrats. Then it will be like the old days when all you heard about was the horrors of Ruby Ridge and Waco.


I don't see how that fits into a discussion of warrentless searches. I would bet that they had all thier ducks in a row... well at least until that sniper shot and killed the mother holding her baby or the match was lit. :eek:
piercehawkeye45 • Mar 29, 2007 11:50 am
TheMercenary;327910 wrote:
Haven't travelled much have you.
:rolleyes:

If that is your fantasy world of the nice big old world have at it.

No, I haven't traveled much but I know, except for rare cases, people won't attack me as long as I repect them and their culture.

Also, how does traveling have any relevance to people coming here and attacking me at my house?
elSicomoro • Mar 29, 2007 11:53 am
Undertoad;327911 wrote:
What an awesome way to collect disability! That's using yer head.

Naked is good, too, that way when they take you, they won't shoot you thinking you're concealing something.

The car fire seems a bit over the top though.


He wanted to kill himself, so he set the car on fire...but he got scared of the flames.
TheMercenary • Mar 29, 2007 11:56 am
piercehawkeye45;327921 wrote:
No, I haven't traveled much but I know, except for rare cases, people won't attack me as long as I repect them and their culture.


You are delusional.
glatt • Mar 29, 2007 12:04 pm
TheMercenary;327917 wrote:
I don't see how that fits into a discussion of warrentless searches. I would bet that they had all thier ducks in a row...


That's because you needed warrants back then. The next Democratic President won't need them. Ruby Ridge and Waco are examples of times that many conservatives think a Democratic executive branch was overstepping its authority. In the future, there won't even be warrants involved.
TheMercenary • Mar 29, 2007 12:08 pm
glatt;327939 wrote:
In the future, there won't even be warrants involved.

And how in the world do you come to that conclusion? Are you afraid of something?
Sundae • Mar 29, 2007 2:32 pm
piercehawkeye45;327921 wrote:
No, I haven't traveled much but I know, except for rare cases, people won't attack me as long as I repect them and their culture.


TheMercenary;327932 wrote:
You are delusional.

I disagree. I'm not the most extensively travelled person on this board (there are some real globetrotters here) but I have travelled reasonably.

I have never been attacked, nor do I believe I am likely to be for reasons that I wouldn't be attacked in my own country (wrong place, wrong time, robbery or sexual motives).

If you mean verbally attacked, the only places that has happened to me were in my own backyard - figuratively soeaking. I left a pub in Essex (a county south of London) because I felt uncomfortable with the way people at the bar mocked my accent. I wasn't what they thought I was (over-privileged and slumming it) but I didn't stay to explain it. I also had my English accent commented on derisively in Belfast - which made me very uncomfortable.
Griff • Mar 29, 2007 4:17 pm
sycamore;327927 wrote:
He wanted to kill himself, so he set the car on fire...but he got scared of the flames.


You really took all the fun out of the story with that. Since this is a thread about believing whatever we want, despite contrary evidence, I'm going to continue thinking this was a brilliant disability scam.
TheMercenary • Mar 29, 2007 4:20 pm
Griff;328116 wrote:
You really took all the fun out of the story with that. Since this is a thread about believing whatever we want, despite contrary evidence, I'm going to continue thinking this was a brilliant disability scam.


Maybe the guy was just an asshole and he wanted to make a fire to keep warm. No harm no foul, well except for being naked.:eek:
Griff • Mar 29, 2007 4:23 pm
put on a sweater
TheMercenary • Mar 29, 2007 4:25 pm
Griff;328123 wrote:
put on a sweater


I can't, it will not fit over my helmet.
elSicomoro • Mar 29, 2007 7:56 pm
Griff;328116 wrote:
You really took all the fun out of the story with that. Since this is a thread about believing whatever we want, despite contrary evidence, I'm going to continue thinking this was a brilliant disability scam.


I was telling April about this thread earlier...she reminded me that before he set the car on fire, he tried to jump off a bridge into a river to kill himself. But he didn't like being in wet clothes and could swim. So he went back to the car and set it on fire.
xoxoxoBruce • Mar 29, 2007 11:00 pm
Undertoad;327911 wrote:

The car fire seems a bit over the top though.
You can't collect insurance on a blown motor or trans.
warch • Mar 30, 2007 8:00 pm
Once again, I am not afraid of anything because I know that some really dedicated people are out there doing the good work hunting down the people who want to harm us. I will not support hamstringing their good work.


That's alot of blind trust, I kinda think its a bit naive, too. You said you *did* get out much?
I'm gonna stick with the framers and demand a bit of accountabilty and oversight. I have a sinking feeling that mixed in with the hardworking heroes are a few bad apples. Some have surfaced (see the Abu kids, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, see Brownie, see Libby, Rove, Feith, see Tillman, see Gonzales, Miers, Goodling, Samson), and perhaps even, say, due to a ill-considered political appointment of a unqualified adminstrator by a weak CEO (Bush) who puts political gain before country, cause harm to the safeguarding efforts.

How have I personally been effected? I pay taxes.