A Town Willing To Enforce The Law
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/08/21/AR2006082101484.html
Pa. City Puts Illegal Immigrants on Notice
'They Must Leave,' Mayor of Hazleton Says After Signing Tough New Law
By Michael Powell and Michelle García
Washington Post Staff Writers
Tuesday, August 22, 2006; Page A03
HAZLETON, Pa. -- An immigrant's grandson, Louis J. Barletta, the mayor of this once-sleepy hill city, leans forward behind the desk in his corner office and with an easy smile confides his goal.
Barletta wants to make Hazleton "the toughest place on illegal immigrants in America."
"What I'm doing here is protecting the legal taxpayer of any race," said the dapper 50-year-old mayor, sweeping his hands toward the working-class city outside. "And I will get rid of the illegal people. It's this simple: They must leave ."
Last month, in a raucous meeting, the mayor and City Council passed the Illegal Immigration Relief Act. (Barletta wore a bulletproof vest because, he says, Hazleton is menaced by a surge in crime committed by illegal immigrants.) The act imposes a $1,000-per-day fine on any landlord who rents to an illegal immigrant, and it revokes for five years the business license of any employer who hires one.
The act also declares English to be the city's official language. Employees are forbidden to translate documents into another language without official authorization.
The law doesn't take effect for another month. But the Republican mayor already sees progress. "I see illegal immigrants picking up and leaving -- some Mexican restaurants say business is off 75 percent," Barletta says. "The message is out there."
So another fire is set in the nation's immigration wars, which as often burn most fiercely not in the urban megalopolises but in small cities and towns, where for the first time in generations immigrants have made their presence felt. In these corners, the mayors, councils and cops cobble together ambitious plans -- some of which are legally dubious -- to turn back illegal immigration.
Last year two New Hampshire police chiefs began arresting illegal immigrants for trespassing, a tactic the courts tossed out. On New York's Long Island, the Suffolk County Legislature is expected to adopt a proposal next month prohibiting contractors from hiring illegal immigrants.
Hazleton has upped that ante, and four neighboring municipalities in Pennsylvania and Riverside, N.J., already have passed identical ordinances. Seven more cities, from Allentown, Pa., to Palm Beach, Fla., are debating similar legislation.
"The ideas that these things are happening spontaneously would be mistaken," said Devin Burghart, who tracks the immigration wars for the nonprofit Center for New Community in Chicago. "What is driving folks is fear of change and changing demographics."
German, Italian and Japanese television crews have interviewed Barletta. He has received 9,000 favorable e-mails and has raised thousands of dollars for the city's legal defense on a Web site called Small Town Defenders. (Two staffers from Sen. Rick Santorum's staff prepared the site; Santorum, a Republican who is in a tight reelection race, has pushed for immigration crackdowns.)
But Barletta and the council just might walk off a legal cliff. The American Civil Liberties Union and the Puerto Rican Legal Defense and Education Fund have sued to block the ordinance, saying it could ensnare many who are here legally.
Even the Federation for American Immigration Reform, which organizes cities and towns to push for tighter immigration quotas and much tougher enforcement, says Hazleton's ordinance is overly broad.
"If you are going to use the word 'illegal immigrant,' you have to be very careful when you are defining that term that it corresponds to federal immigration classification," said Michael Hethmon, a lawyer with FAIR. "You can't use terminology that mixes and matches illegal immigrants and legal immigrants."
Hispanic demonstrators outside the Hazleton, Pa., city hall protest a law that makes it illegal to rent to or hire an illegal immigrant. (By Rick Smith -- Associated Press)
The Immigration Debate
The Washington Post's coverage of the immigration issue, from the politics of revising the nation's immigration laws to the impact of illegal immigration on the U.S.-Mexico border and the Washington region.
Life Along 'La Linea'
The U.S.-Mexico border is at the forefront of a growing debate over U.S. immigration and border security reform.
High in coal country, Hazleton sits perched on a rocky mountain ridge, and more than once immigration has been the agent of the city's deliverance.
Hazleton (it was supposed to be "Hazelton," but a clerk misspelled the name at incorporation) was founded in the early 1800s atop a thick vein of anthracite coal -- "black diamonds" -- and immigrants arrived by the thousands to mine it. The Irish came first, then Italians and Tiroleans, Poles and Slavs. There were mine disasters, and for decades bosses and workers fought pitched wars. Always there were complaints that the most recent arrivals didn't speak English or understand American customs.
Hazleton's city fathers, though, tended to be progressive. In 1891, the city became the third in the nation to electrify. And they helped silk and garment mills open. Not all of this was wholesome -- worthies from Murder Inc., not least mafia boss Albert Anastasia, owned a few mills. Sometimes politics was settled with fists or a carefully aimed pistol.
In the 1930s the coal mines closed, and then the mills moved south. Barletta was elected mayor in 2000, and he's credited with working hard at Hazleton's revival.
But the big change came half a decade back when Latinos -- Puerto Ricans, who are citizens of the United States, and Dominicans -- began driving west on Interstate 80, fleeing the high housing prices and cacophony of inner-city New York, Philadelphia and Providence. They found in Hazleton a city with an industrial base and cheap housing (an old Victorian could be had for $40,000 five years ago).
Latino-owned markets, restaurants and clothing stores sprang up along Wyoming Street, and property values tripled. Hazleton's population has jumped from 23,000 to 31,000 in the past six years.
Daniel Diaz stands behind the cash register in his supermarket filled with plantains and tamales and Goya products. The gray-haired grocer was born in the Dominican Republic but spent 31 years in New York City. He moved here in 2000. He loved the mountain air and bought properties and invited friends to move here, too.
"Five years ago?" He's incredulous you might think it was better then. "It was d-e-a-d. It's gotten better and better.
"Now? Business is down. I don't get it -- they don't like this revival?"
Barletta says it's not that simple. He says his epiphany came in May, when several illegal immigrants walked up to a local man at 11 o'clock one night and shot him in the forehead. One suspect had four false identity papers. "It took us nine hours of overtime just to run down who he was," Barletta said.
This, he said, came on the heels of crack dealing on playgrounds and pit bulls lunging at cops.
"I lay in bed and thought: I've lost my city," he recalls. "I love the new legal immigrants; they want their kids to be safe just like I do. I had to declare war on the illegals."
In truth, the crime wave is hard to measure. Crime is up 10 percent, but the population has risen just as fast. Violent crime has jumped more sharply, but on a small statistical base. Barletta insists there's no whiff of racial antagonism. "This isn't racial, because 'illegal' and 'legal' don't have a race," he says.
It's not hard, however, to discern a note of racial grievance. Many whites who attended the council vote serenaded Latino opponents with chants of "Hit the road, Jack!" A prominent Hispanic leader said Hazleton had become a "Nazi city."
But it's a complicated tapestry. To walk Sixth Street, near the ridge line, is to hear white old-timers warn about the gang graffiti and drug dealing on playgrounds, and then listen as Latino homeowners echo those complaints. A Puerto Rican metal worker and a ponytailed white truck driver swap stories about Mexican laborers driving down construction wages.
Connie and David Fallotovich sit on their porch on a cool summer evening. They sort of miss their sleepy old white city, and they favor a crackdown -- why should an illegal immigrant get a break? They also see their new Dominican neighbors as a big improvement.
David, a custodian, jerks his head at the house next door. "The couple now is really nice. Tell you the truth, buddy, a white family lived there for 20 years and they were a . . . nightmare."
On Lou Dobbs today it was stated that eleven legal immigrants have opened businesses in Hazelton since the law was enacted... it does
not harm immigrants, just law breakers.
Right, and Lou Dobbs is such a reliable, unbiased source on this subject.
How many fucking "illegal immigration" threads do we need here on the Cellar, anyway?
Until it goes away it is a viable subject, especially until people start realizing that it is not a race issue and is simply a legal one.
Don't like it, don't read it, don't post, you have free will.
Deporting them won't solve anything. The best thing we can do is help them become citizens. It maybe unfair to the legal immigrants but leaving the illegals unchecked will hurt us a lot more than it helps.
Hmm. Maybe we should, in the interest of fairness, enforce other federal laws, while we're at it. Don't you think it's fair to require tax records of previous years to verify that the potential customers haven't committed tax evasion? Better get an audit while you're at it. Oh, and to prevent the appearance of discrimination, submit *all* such customers to this scrutiny.
And while we're being so evenhanded, why restrict your deputization of landlords and construction contractors? It seems fair that all other commercial transactions should be subject to exactly the same scrutiny. Make grocery stores and gas stations liable at $1000 per transaction for food or fuel sold to illegals. And strip them of their business license to prevent recidivism.
That'll show them. They won't be able to work, have no place to live, can't buy food to eat or fuel to drive. They'll be sitting ducks! Round them up, easy as pie! Don't deport them, though, they'll just come right back. And since we don't want them consuming any of our resources, putting them in prison is really expensive, so just dig a big hole, shoot them all and send the bill for the excavation to one of those brown countries down there. Don't forget the cost of the bullets, eh?
Valley Park, MO (a small suburb of St. Louis) had its Hazleton-style law
thrown out yesterday. It looks like there are still going to be more legal battles, though.
"It's impossible to make anything foolproof because fools are ingenious."--unknown
The act also declares English to be the city's official language. Employees are forbidden to translate documents into another language without official authorization.
Good to see that they're enacting this. We wouldn't want to allow everyone to understand the word of the law unless they speak English, legal or not.
"Illegal" and "legal" may not have a race, but they do have a language?
Given the complexity of many laws, I don't quite understand them when they are in English.
They can always hire an interpreter until they can learn English.
Deporting them won't solve anything. The best thing we can do is help them become citizens. It maybe unfair to the legal immigrants but leaving the illegals unchecked will hurt us a lot more than it helps.
It is not unchecked... the idea is to make the US inhospitable to illegals. They just will not want to be here and will decide to comply with the law.
What should have been happening from the beginning. The idea of law enforcement.
Hmm. Maybe we should, in the interest of fairness, enforce other federal laws, while we're at it. ~snip
If the feds insure that everyone is here legally you don't need any of that. Nothing. Nada. All they have to enforce is ONE law. The one that says you have to come through check points. :p
I noticed a bit on TV the other day, it seems in one section of the Mexican border, they have gotten tougher. Instead of just putting them on a bus home, they are jailed. Prints, mugshots, indentity positively established, then sent home, which takes from a day to two weeks waiting in jail. The Mexicans are very upset the processing has changed, but border crossing attempts in that sector have dropped on the order of 80%.
That and that they are checking to see if they are wanted in the US or in Mexico. The percentage of those who were criminals in the special that I saw was unnerving.
That and that they felt that it was wrong and "unfair"... nuts.
Why should they HAVE to learn English? The whole point of not having an official language is so we can SUPPORT immigrants of all types, among other reasons.
If they dont want to learn english, they don't have to - but at the same time, can't complain that they didnt.
Similarly, integration into society should be neither forbidden nor mandatory; integration is optional, but if you refuse to americanize yourself, don't complain about the consequences.
It is not unchecked... the idea is to make the US inhospitable to illegals. They just will not want to be here and will decide to comply with the law.
What should have been happening from the beginning. The idea of law enforcement.
Come on, do you really think that won't majorly backfire?
They won't leave...they will resort to crime.
I see nothing wrong with a stiff fine against those caught hiring illegals - be they citizens or businesses. Not only would it curb illegal immigration but it would promote better working conditions.
It's a band-aid, Jebediah. A band-aid on a sore caused by blood poisoning. It's shouldn't be necessary and distracts resources from the real problem. :cool:
Why should they HAVE to learn English? The whole point of not having an official language is so we can SUPPORT immigrants of all types, among other reasons.
If they dont want to learn english, they don't have to - but at the same time, can't complain that they didnt.
Should we HAVE to support their refusal to learn the english (american) language? Should we provide translations for all the worlds languages in all forms of communications and media? Should we HAVE to train emergency personnel in the worlds languages (at our expense) so they can get the emergency care or services the refusers need? Should we HAVE to train everyone in heavy industry, so that those who refuse to learn the language, can be warned of a dangerous or possibly lethal situation?
This is Brian R,s home turf. Weigh in, sir.
Should we HAVE to support their refusal to learn the english (american) language? Should we provide translations for all the worlds languages in all forms of communications and media? Should we HAVE to train emergency personnel in the worlds languages (at our expense) so they can get the emergency care or services the refusers need? Should we HAVE to train everyone in heavy industry, so that those who refuse to learn the language, can be warned of a dangerous or possibly lethal situation?
Please re-read what he wrote. He said if they refuse to learn the language they should expect not complain about the consequences.
When you read the whole post I can't figure out what he stand for, having English as the standard language or not?
Why should they HAVE to learn English? The whole point of not having an official language is so we can SUPPORT immigrants of all types, among other reasons.
If they dont want to learn english, they don't have to - but at the same time, can't complain that they didnt.
Similarly, integration into society should be neither forbidden nor mandatory; integration is optional, but if you refuse to americanize yourself, don't complain about the consequences.
What he means is if you don't learn the language you just don't get the same service as you would without. That is, no automatic interpretation at tax payers expense for example. So, if you choose not to learn the language, it's on your own head, but we're (you're) not going to subsidise your ignorance.
What I got out of it is that we should not force someone to learn English but we should also not go out of our way to accommodate them if they choose not too.
That is my view too so maybe I misread it to satisfy my bias.
That is my view as well. Our documents, schools, signs, courts, etc, should all be in/conducted in English alone.
If someone chooses to spend their life with their personal interpreter at their side... have at it.
I think government functions - except maybe signs, just for simplicity - should be pan-lingual on demand. End of story.
Businesses, on the other hand, can make the choice for themselves. Immigrants can't complain if a business decides to internally conduct business only in english (though the business may suffer for it).
Standardizing a language for your business is NOT discrimination. Standardizing a language for a country that intentionally and deliberately has no official language just so the 'damn dirty mexicans' wont come over, is.
Pan-lingual for simplicity? Suuuuuurrrre.
Who said Mexicans? Why is everyone who is Latino a Mexican? Why are all non-English speaking immigrants Mexicans?
I can never figure this out?
What?
I said english signs for simplicity, panligualism on demand for all other government functions.
And I was making fun of stupid bigoted rightwingers who only want to make english the official language to spite immigrants, especially illegal ones from mexico - like the article.
How many languages are going to be on those sign? You going to let people drive that can't read the signs or the rules? Can you say 6 pound traffic ticket? :smack:
How many piles of instructions at the IRS? Or the Post Office? Motor Vehicle Department? Hospital? Menus?
Chinese? Portuguese (which is as common as Spanish in the Americas)? French? Italian? Hindi? German?
Be big signs/piles, methinks.
A common language gives people something is common instead of the division that's eating away Canada.
It's not bigoted to make the country function like a country instead of like the ineffectual UN. Start thinking beyond a hypothetical situation, a classroom exercise in what would be desirable in a perfect world.
The world doesn't work that way, when you look at the realities of execution. When you start putting up the poles and painting signs people can read without stopping in the middle of the road. When you have to take the neighbors house by eminent domain, just to house the piles of instructions.
And pay for it.
Bruce, as long as I'm not allowed to vote, and dont have to pay taxes, I can be as unrealistic and utopian as I wish. Thats the great thing about being outside the system; you arent bound by it.
True, but best to understand it before getting there, because it will crush you in a most painful way if you don't know how, or when,to play it. :thepain:
How many languages are going to be on those sign?
I'd say two: English and Spanish. They're the most prevalent languages in our country right now.
How many piles of instructions at the IRS? Or the Post Office? Motor Vehicle Department? Hospital? Menus?
My workplace has all the legally required signs in both English and Spanish. Its not that big of a deal. But, IRS forms? That'd be crazy! Think of the hell it would be if they had to put IRS information in Spanish--
oh, wait, here it is.
Chinese? Portuguese (which is as common as Spanish in the Americas)? French? Italian? Hindi? German?
If you fly into Hartsfield International Airport in Atlanta, you'll notice that the digital signs on the tram scroll through at least eight languages, including the ones you've listed as well as Japanese and Korean. This change, made during the 1996 Olympic games, probably isn't entirely needed, but is helpful to people navigating the airport. Another major international destination, Disney World, has a monorail that makes announcements in English and Spanish, as studies done by Disney show that guests to the park that speak other languages are highly likely to also speak English as a second language. Spanish was the only exception, statistically, so it made sense to provide two announcements. No chaos broke out from either of these changes.
The world doesn't work that way, when you look at the realities of execution. When you start putting up the poles and painting signs people can read without stopping in the middle of the road.
Admittedly, I had trouble "inspection", but
road signs in Mexico aren't that difficult for non-Spanish speakers. I probably wouldn't speed through the red octagon marked 'ALTO' so, somehow, I don't think most English road signs are much more difficult for Spanish speakers in the US.
When you have to take the neighbors house by eminent domain, just to house the piles of instructions.
Agreed -- we can't translate
everything into
every language in the world. Now, what happens in our future when a US city/county/state becomes so populated with Spanish speakers that English becomes the minority? (For some cities and counties, I'm sure this already applies.) Will your suggestions still follow and will the dual signs come down in favor of Spanish only instructions? How would you feel navigating without the aid of English signs in one of these cities/states? Luckily, you won't be forced to learn Spanish, but...
Whatever our governments do, I'm strongly suggesting no one remove the required sign that reads "Lavarse Las Manos!" from any of the restaurants I dine in. :greenface
I said english signs for simplicity, panligualism on demand for all other government functions.
How many languages are going to be on those sign?
One?
Yeah you got me, HM. But you know as well as I do, that won't last. :lol:
To clarify, "that" refers to one language signs.
It's not bigoted to make the country function like a country instead of like the ineffectual UN. Start thinking beyond a hypothetical situation, a classroom exercise in what would be desirable in a perfect world.
The UN should really work on creating a new language, and no, not Esperanto or whatever that was called. We need something simple that everyone can learn easily.
I'd say two: English and Spanish. They're the most prevalent languages in our country right now.
Would that stand up to constitutional scrutiny?
My workplace has all the legally required signs in both English and Spanish. Its not that big of a deal. But, IRS forms? That'd be crazy! Think of the hell it would be if they had to put IRS information in Spanish-- oh, wait, here it is.
That's not right, shouldn't be a legal requirement. If a business wants to go to the trouble and expense as a business decision, fine. Go for it. If I don't want to pay for it I can take my business elsewhere.
If you fly into Hartsfield International Airport in Atlanta, you'll notice that the digital signs on the tram scroll through at least eight languages, including the ones you've listed as well as Japanese and Korean. This change, made during the 1996 Olympic games, probably isn't entirely needed, but is helpful to people navigating the airport. Another major international destination, Disney World, has a monorail that makes announcements in English and Spanish, as studies done by Disney show that guests to the park that speak other languages are highly likely to also speak English as a second language. Spanish was the only exception, statistically, so it made sense to provide two announcements. No chaos broke out from either of these changes.
Business decisions, fine.
Admittedly, I had trouble "inspection", but road signs in Mexico aren't that difficult for non-Spanish speakers. I probably wouldn't speed through the red octagon marked 'ALTO' so, somehow, I don't think most English road signs are much more difficult for Spanish speakers in the US.
I wasn't worried about traffic control signs, the international signs are pretty clear. I'm concerned with the signs like accident ahead, next gas 28 miles, and Slaussen cutoff. How about, " No stopping or standing 3 pm to 6:30 pm on weekdays, and Saturdays, during school year, except holidays." OK, that's not a real common sign, I admit.
But my problem is the people who think it's a yard sale sign and stop in the middle of the road to look around, get out a map, and/or argue about what it says. Two language signs have to be twice as big or reduce the lettering by half. That makes it more confusing, so they slow down more and make mistakes that can turn deadly when they realize it and try to recover with an outrageous maneuver. I've seen it too many times with just English signs and more so in Canada..... or maybe that was me?
Agreed -- we can't translate everything into every language in the world. Now, what happens in our future when a US city/county/state becomes so populated with Spanish speakers that English becomes the minority? (For some cities and counties, I'm sure this already applies.) Will your suggestions still follow and will the dual signs come down in favor of Spanish only instructions? How would you feel navigating without the aid of English signs in one of these cities/states? Luckily, you won't be forced to learn Spanish, but...
That wouldn't be a problem if they weren't doing what they are doing now, now would it? There is no reason for a kid born in this country not to read, write and speak English. Go ahead, ask about the ones that aren't, go ahead. :lol:
Whatever our governments do, I'm strongly suggesting no one remove the required sign that reads "Lavarse Las Manos!" from any of the restaurants I dine in. :greenface
No comprendi.
The UN should really work on creating a new language, and no, not Esperanto or whatever that was called. We need something simple that everyone can learn easily.
The UN should move to Africa where I'm sure they would bring some improvement if they had to live and work there. :earth:
That's not right, shouldn't be a legal requirement. If a business wants to go to the trouble and expense as a business decision, fine. Go for it. If I don't want to pay for it I can take my business elsewhere.
The signs are government required and in some cases are produced by the government. "Wash your hands. Lavarse las manos." You'll see this one in any workplace that deals with food. Minimum wage and disability signs are all dual language. It is common sense to provide your taxpayers with information they can understand.
The forcing of private businesses to have signs in a specific language can get tricky. In Gwinnett County, GA, the issue came up some years ago because emergencies at some Asian businesses couldn't be responded to since emergency workers were unable to read the signs along crowded highways populated by international businesses and restaurants. The measure to have all private business signs have readable English as well as the Asian characters was defeated. You might not agree these businesses should be forced to have dual language signs, but there is a public safety factor involved.
But my problem is the people who think it's a yard sale sign and stop in the middle of the road to look around, get out a map, and/or argue about what it says.
Confusing street signs for yard sale signs? Stopping in the middle of the road to argue? This sounds more like bad driving habits than anything language-related.
Two language signs have to be twice as big or reduce the lettering by half.
City/county/state/federal signs all have regulations on lettering size for visibility reasons, so this simply isn't an issue.
That makes it more confusing, so they slow down more and make mistakes that can turn deadly when they realize it and try to recover with an outrageous maneuver.
...so, you want to clear up confusion about what signs mean by making them unreadable by a significant percentage of the population? :confused: In many other countries, the signs are in two languages and I've not heard of any traffic issues related to that aspect. Important signs are usually simple, internationally understood symbols. Everything else, not a big deal.
There is no reason for a kid born in this country not to read, write and speak English. Go ahead, ask about the ones that aren't, go ahead.
We're talking about Spanish speakers, right? ;)
But, alright, I will ask about them. What of the children that grow up surrounded by families that don't speak English? What of the children that grow up in a community that doesn't speak English and interact with businesses that speak only Spanish? Have you ever sat in on an ESOL class and spoken with the kids that come out of it?
No comprendi.
"No comprend
o." :)
I understand the need for clear communication between people, but it can't be forced, especially in many communities across the country. Passing a law that makes English the standard language and removes Spanish from documents and signs is simply going to put people in the dark. You might think isolating groups of people like that would force them to learn English, but the effect is exactly the opposite.
The signs are government required and in some cases are produced by the government. "Wash your hands. Lavarse las manos." You'll see this one in any workplace that deals with food. Minimum wage and disability signs are all dual language. It is common sense to provide your taxpayers with information they can understand.
Yeah, I noticed all the janitorial supplies are almost entirely in Spanish. If I checked them closely, I'm sure there would be a small panel in English. Six years ago it was exactly the opposite.
The forcing of private businesses to have signs in a specific language can get tricky. In Gwinnett County, GA, the issue came up some years ago because emergencies at some Asian businesses couldn't be responded to since emergency workers were unable to read the signs along crowded highways populated by international businesses and restaurants. The measure to have all private business signs have readable English as well as the Asian characters was defeated. You might not agree these businesses should be forced to have dual language signs, but there is a public safety factor involved.
Do they make them clearly number them? Most businesses I drive by, around here, I couldn't find the number without stopping. Must be hell for EMTs.
Confusing street signs for yard sale signs? Stopping in the middle of the road to argue? This sounds more like bad driving habits than anything language-related.
Around here and in New England, I've seen it too. Driving down the street the car in front of you stops dead because they've seen a yard/garage sale. Usually the passenger will then get out and bee-line for the sale then the driver looks for a place to park. Thats what I was referring to with the yard sale sign. My bad, I though that was universal.:haha:
But my point was when people get confused by signs the natural reaction is to slow down and sometimes full stop...right in the damn road. I've even seen a woman on the Cross-Bronx Expressway (I-95 near the George Washington Bridge) stop and when the horns started, she rolled her window down and waved me around her, while she looked at the map. Unusual? Yes, but an example how dangerous confused people can be.
City/county/state/federal signs all have regulations on lettering size for visibility reasons, so this simply isn't an issue.
Of course it's an issue. If they say x by y maximum, you have to squeeze twice the information on it. If they state the minimum lettering then the sign has to be twice as big, as do the supports. Bigger signs, less visibility if you have many in the same area. Some urban intersections can have dozens of official signs competing for your attention.
...so, you want to clear up confusion about what signs mean by making them unreadable by a significant percentage of the population? :confused:
No, I want to clear up the confusion by not issuing licenses to people that can't read the goddamn signs or rules.
In many other countries, the signs are in two languages and I've not heard of any traffic issues related to that aspect. Important signs are usually simple, internationally understood symbols. Everything else, not a big deal.
like in Paris where the cars are burning? Or Canada? Mexico has all the signs in English,too....right?
We're talking about Spanish speakers, right? ;)
Only because they are the one making the demands. Every other ethnicity that came here learned English, because they wanted to be Americans.
But, alright, I will ask about them. What of the children that grow up surrounded by families that don't speak English? What of the children that grow up in a community that doesn't speak English and interact with businesses that speak only Spanish? Have you ever sat in on an ESOL class and spoken with the kids that come out of it?
If they were born and raised here and go to public schools here, English should not be a second language. That's what I was referring to in my last answer,
they wanted to be Americans.
I refuse to believe they are coming into this country legally, at a rate they can't assimilate, but they don't want to. They want to recreate back home, right here. They don't want to be Americans. Why should they be catered to? No other group ever was, were they?
Of course it's not only a familiar surroundings, it makes it easier to hide illegals, Even employ them in the underground economy. I don't remember hearing about any other group coming here and taking down the flag at the post office to put up there own, either.
"No comprendo." :)
I understand the need for clear communication between people, but it can't be forced, especially in many communities across the country. Passing a law that makes English the standard language and removes Spanish from documents and signs is simply going to put people in the dark. You might think isolating groups of people like that would force them to learn English, but the effect is exactly the opposite.
What, they'll gather in enclaves, hoods, and only speak their own language? Do business, and interact with each other in Spanish? Create their own underground economy, hide and employ illegals? Run their flag up at the Post Office permanantly? :smack:
btw, I said nothing about passing a law making English the official language.
Instead of just putting them on a bus home, they are jailed. Prints, mugshots, indentity positively established, then sent home, which takes from a day to two weeks waiting in jail.
So how much does that cost us per person, $500?
So how much does that cost us per person, $500?
Does it matter if they are catching fugitives from justice and cutting the influx of illegals? :question:
Especially considering the other expensive schemes that didn't work.
Yes it matters and is what we should be doing, enforcing the law.
The UN should really work on creating a new language, and no, not Esperanto or whatever that was called. We need something simple that everyone can learn easily.
'
Genesis 11:6 comes to mind.
Would there be a benefit? Even with all speaking the same technical language, do we really understand or care to understand one another?
What I got out of it is that we should not force someone to learn English but we should also not go out of our way to accommodate them if they choose not too.
That is my view too so maybe I misread it to satisfy my bias.
I agree with you but he was unclear.
I'd say two: English and Spanish. They're the most prevalent languages in our country right now.
Is spanish a most prevalent language because of legal or illegal immigration? I don't know but it would be interesting to see some figures.
My point about about english in industry jobs was about safety issues and being able to communicate with other workers who do not speak english. In an emergency situation, they cannot be warned of a toxic spill, chemical fume release or some other situation that requires them to leave the area quickly. In the event of one of those situations, I won't hang around to get the idea across. I have no inclination to be a hero. And if serious injuries or deaths occur to the "refusers" that can impact MY employment.
No, I want to clear up the confusion by not issuing licenses to people that can't read the goddamn signs or rules.
I agree with this. Whether or not you can read or speak English doesn't bother me usually but once you get into a car you are putting everyone else in danger if you cannot read the signs. This doesn't mean to have to be fluent, just that you can read the signs (for example, having dead end on a stop sign and knowing that it says dead end).
Would there be a benefit? Even with all speaking the same technical language, do we really understand or care to understand one another?
Yes, it would save over a million dollars (or billion, I forget which one) a year for the UN and it will make discussions a lot easier to understand and we won't misinterpret each other. It will make things go a lot smoother even if we choose not to look from their viewpoints.
The language would also be good for civilians too. I won't have to worry about learning a native language if I travel when I can just speak an international language. We are already connected as a planet, we should have an international language as well.
Yes, it would save over a million dollars (or billion, I forget which one) a year for the UN and it will make discussions a lot easier to understand and we won't misinterpret each other. It will make things go a lot smoother even if we choose not to look from their viewpoints.
The language would also be good for civilians too. I won't have to worry about learning a native language if I travel when I can just speak an international language. We are already connected as a planet, we should have an international language as well.
I'm certain God would not allow it. Genesis 11:7-9.
...So would he hurl thunderbolts or send floods to stop us?
Sorry I forgot, God wants war and disagreements.
Sorry I forgot, God wants war and disagreements.
Can you think of any earthly interests that would like that, as well?
A Nazi in conservatives clothing.
I don't think requiring people who want to rent to register with the government is a 'conservative' idea.
Prior to the injunction, municipal workers set up an office on the third floor of City Hall from which they planned to issue occupancy permits required under the landlord tenant act.
To obtain a permit, renters were to pay $10 and submit identification such as a U.S. Passport or birth certificate to prove that they are United States citizens. Non-citizens were to show resident cards proving that they are in the country legally.
If residents move to a new rental dwelling, they are to obtain a new permit.
A city is certainly within it's rights from a public safety perspective to have property owners register their properties as rentals, so that fire safety inspection, etc, can be performed. But forcing renters to register possibly violates the commerce clause, depending on how loosely you want to define it, as well as interfering with individuals attempts to procure a basic need such as housing. It's almost like requiring a permit to buy food or medicine.
What commerce clause, Rich? :question:
What commerce clause, Rich? :question:
Commerce clause of the Constitution. Forcing people to register with the government in order to rent housing would interfere in the 'channel of commerce'.
Other challenges would be the 14th, the 4th, and the 9th.
The city is forcing individuals to register and pay a fee in order to prove their citizenship in order to rent housing. If it doesn't request the same of individuals buying property, it fails the equal protection test. Since individuals are being forced to prove their citizenship, in effect proving their innocence, it fails a due process test and possibly constitutes an unreasonable search.
I'm not a lawyer. I'm just guessing on what grounds it will be challenged.
Read the use of 'penumbras' in
Griswold vs. Conn.
Commerce clause of the Constitution.
OH,
interstate commerce. ;)
Send them all home or lock them up in camps until they apply for a guest worker program (which we don't have yet). It is not fair to all the other legal immigrants who went through the process, which often takes years, and did it the right way. We are paying out the ass for these people while they send home the majority of what they earn. This problem needs to be fixed asap.
That would solve anything but just cause more problems. They will know that we going to come after them and then resort to an exile status life of crime. If we do not accept them they will turn against us instead of working with us.
Of course it isn't fair for the legal immigrants but life isn't fair and this is one of the problems that you have to make moral sacrifice for the greater good.
I still don't get so-called small government conservatives burdening landlords like this.
Actually, the mayor is a Democrat, and I would suspect that most of the aldermen are as well. There are a lot of Dems in St. Louis that hate Republicans and their general agenda, but don't like minorities. I don't know what you'd call them, other than "fucked up." :)
The following is from the current front page of Valley Park's
website:
The City of Valley Park has passed an ordinance making it illegal for businesses to hire illegal aliens and for landlords to rent to illegal aliens. The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) and the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund (MALDEF) and others have brought together a team of 22 lawyers to sue the City and halt the enforcement of the ordinance. Their lawsuit, brought on behalf of three landlords and a business, argues that the City's ordinance violates numerous federal and state constitutional provisions and discriminates against classes of tenants and employees illegally. The suit seeks compensation for attorney fees and seeks to fine the City Officials for violations of state open meetings laws. Valley Park has denied the allegations and has assembled a legal team to defend it's ordinance and it's officials.
The City has retained the services of a law professor at the University of Missouri who was the chief advisor to former U.S. Attorney General Ashcroft on immigration matters. Prof. Kobach is a nationally known expert in immigration and constitutional law. Valley Park has a limited budget and is a small city, with the population less than 7,500 citizens, whereas the litigants in the suit against the City have counsel who are providing their services to them free from charges. The City has experienced much legal expenses and would appreciate the financial support of like minded persons or businesses that believe our country and way of life is threatened by unrestricted illegal immigration and the presence of illegal aliens in the community at a time when our nation is in a global war against terrorism.
Please consider donating to our cause.
Sincerely,
Jeffery Whitteaker,
Mayor
Translation by sycamore:
I, along with a handful of other idges, are so hellbent on passing this shit, that we're essentially willing to bankrupt our backwater piece of shit suburb. Please save us from ourselves.
If only the floods of 1982 and 1993 had truly wiped the city off the map...
How about racist?
Nope, the mayor is the son of two
legal immigrants.
They are quite open about how welcoming they are to their legal immigrant community and eleven immigrant businesses have opened since the ordinance has passed.
This is not about race, it is about the law and the law alone. An illegal Brit or Scott is just as illegal.
[soviet]I can't wait for this to go national, so we can encourage folks to spy on their neighbors private activities. This will be awesome.[/booster]
BTW- We're gonna need a national id card now.
Nope, the mayor is the son of two legal immigrants.
They are quite open about how welcoming they are to their legal immigrant community and eleven immigrant businesses have opened since the ordinance has passed.
This is not about race, it is about the law and the law alone.
Having lived in the St. Louis area most of my life, and having a good sense of the type of people that live in Valley Park, I'm gonna call "bullshit" on this...no offense to you, rk.
Griff was actually referring to the type of Democrats that are popular here in the area, not just Whitteaker.
:eek:
Of course it isn't fair for the legal immigrants but life isn't fair and this is one of the problems that you have to make moral sacrifice for the greater good.
Which is why my proposal is sound. The "moral sacrifice for the greater good" is for the people of the US, not for the minority of illegals that represent the masses. Nor for the section of the greater mass of all immigrants. They are illegal, they need to go and come back another day under a supervised plan of monitoring and a more just form of financial contribution to this country. Most border cities hospitals are heavily burdened with the debt these people have placed on the institutions for their "free indigent" care. The educational systems are burdened. The criminal justice system is burdened. The list goes on.
Oh yeah, and letting them out in the streets will be sooooo much better. We cannot just send them back to whatever country they come from because there are too many, most we wouldn't be able to find anyways, and even if we did they would come back just as fast. So, we are stuck with them. Now, let’s just ignore and disrespect them and hope they go away, right? Lets let them starve on the street, they are illegals anyways, why should we care about them?
Now, look at the consequences of these actions. They are illegals, they have no way to get money. How do you think they will survive? A life a crime. They will hurt innocent Americans because we brushed them off to the side instead of working with them to make it better for everyone. That is why helping illegals is a "moral sacrifice for the greater good" and why we should work with illegals to make them legal and DOCUMENTED.
No, you round them up and send them home. As we are slowly starting to do. No one said anything about letting them out on the streets, not me anyway. It is not just Mexicans or people of spanish/south american origin. There are huge groups of people here illegally. Send them out and make them come back registered. Give everyone of them a fair shake to comeback as a documented alien. The current plan turning a blind eye and just letting them fade into our communities is a bad policy.
snip~ and why we should work with illegals to make them legal and DOCUMENTED.
Of course that's the way it always is, now isn't it? We have to work with them because they refused to work with us. They ignored our laws, now we're being black mailed into crumbling to their demands or innocent people will get hurt?
Well, like you said, life ain't fair, so kill 'em if they prey on people. Hunt them down like the criminals that they are. It's got nothing to do with race, it's about enforcing the laws the rest of us have to live by. Either enforce them or rescind them. Don't tell me I must and they don't....that's unacceptable.:mad:
No, you round them up and send them home. As we are slowly starting to do. No one said anything about letting them out on the streets, not me anyway.
I can't see how this will work. They are hiding from the law and are blending in with the civilian population. Also, if you read my post, I said that if we did send them out they would just come back. Even if you don't plan on sending them out on the streets, that is where they will go.
It is not just Mexicans or people of spanish/south american origin.
When did I say anything about how all illegals are just from Mexico or Latin America?
There are huge groups of people here illegally. Send them out and make them come back registered.
How much money and time would this cost? How are we suppose to keep them out?
Give everyone of them a fair shake to comeback as a documented alien. The current plan turning a blind eye and just letting them fade into our communities is a bad policy.
The reason they are coming here is because their life is so shitting they are willing to take the risk of coming here illegally to have a better life. This won't solve anything except wasting money. Accepting them is a lot cheaper and it makes it doesn't cause hatred between two cultures.
Of course that's the way it always is, now isn't it? We have to work with them because they refused to work with us. They ignored our laws, now we're being black mailed into crumbling to their demands or innocent people will get hurt?
We have had no fault in this? Maybe we shouldn't have raped their country in the first place and they wouldn't be here illegally.
I'm pretty sure we never actually raped Spain.
I love how people try to make is seem like this is about one nation.
Immigration law is just law, that is correct on both levels and has nothing to do with race.
Our immigration laws are the most liberal in the world, it is harder to become a Chinese, Indian, Mexican, or any other citizen, 90% of the time than a US citizen... but they don't like to talk about that.
Mexico treats their illegals terribly, then complains about us not just letting their citizens walk into the US with no immigration law to protect us. Poor babies... I don't think so.
I thought this was an interesting video on immigration. The speaker is Roy Beck.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265&q=numbersusa&hl=en
His web site
http://www.numbersusa.com/index
It seems his facts stand up to scrutiny also. Click on "advisors" on the web site.
I can't see how this will work. They are hiding from the law and are blending in with the civilian population. Also, if you read my post, I said that if we did send them out they would just come back. Even if you don't plan on sending them out on the streets, that is where they will go.
When did I say anything about how all illegals are just from Mexico or Latin America?
How much money and time would this cost? How are we suppose to keep them out?
The reason they are coming here is because their life is so shitting they are willing to take the risk of coming here illegally to have a better life. This won't solve anything except wasting money. Accepting them is a lot cheaper and it makes it doesn't cause hatred between two cultures.
The current plan is not working, and that is a fact.
1. Close the Southern border tight.
2. Begin deportations. Go to the prisons and deport the offenders who are illegal to their host nations prisons. Refuse care for illegals at hospitals except in an emergency. Force all law enforcement agencies to notify the ICE everytime an illegal is arrested or stopped for minor offenses, allow them to be detained for deportation.
3. Set up check points where anyone who wants to enter on a work visa has the chance to get one with a picture ID, finger prints, and an iris scan, develop an extensive national data base and and enforcement personnel to use it. Insist on compliance and those who do not comply would be permanantly banned.
4. I stated thier origin because I wanted to be clear that this is not about race.
5. Time and money??? That is the problem. We have never devoted the time or the money.
6. WOW! they are comming here because thier life is so shitty in their home?!?!? Who would have thunk it!:eek: Not my problem. :violin: :thepain: We are wasting money having them here not the otherway around.
:lame:
PM me your name if you ever run for public office in a jurisdiction in which I am registered to vote.
1. Close the Southern border tight.
...
4. I stated thier origin because I wanted to be clear that this is not about race.
Ugh, will someone turn on a fan or something?
Then we provide something that extremists never bother to provide - the numbers. America need 1.8 million immigrants to work the farms. America only issues 29,000 permits to do the work of 1.8 million. Therefore we must let the crops rot. Funny how once we include numbers, well TheMercenary advocated the destruction of American farming. Why? All laws must be right.
The current plan is not working, and that is a fact.
I never knew we even had a plan...
1. Close the Southern border tight.
How do you plan to do this? Build a big fence?
2. Begin deportations. Go to the prisons and deport the offenders who are illegal to their host nations prisons. Refuse care for illegals at hospitals except in an emergency. Force all law enforcement agencies to notify the ICE everytime an illegal is arrested or stopped for minor offenses, allow them to be detained for deportation.
So you will find a few illegals, what about the ones that don't do anything illegal once they are in the country?
3. Set up check points where anyone who wants to enter on a work visa has the chance to get one with a picture ID, finger prints, and an iris scan, develop an extensive national data base and and enforcement personnel to use it. Insist on compliance and those who do not comply would be permanantly banned.
How does this solve anything?
4. I stated thier origin because I wanted to be clear that this is not about race.
And if they lie?
5. Time and money??? That is the problem. We have never devoted the time or the money.
Which is a problem for me. I would much rather spend the time and money into education, not kicking people out of our country.
6. WOW! they are comming here because thier life is so shitty in their home?!?!? Who would have thunk it!:eek: Not my problem. :violin: :thepain: We are wasting money having them here not the otherway around.
:lame:
So you are completely uncapable of seeing life in someone else's shoes. Do you think your life is more valuable then their's or do you not have a soul?
Ugh, will someone turn on a fan or something?
:comfort:
TheMercenary advocated the destruction of American farming. Why? All laws must be right.
:eyebrow:
I never knew we even had a plan...
How do you plan to do this? Build a big fence?
So you will find a few illegals, what about the ones that don't do anything illegal once they are in the country?
How does this solve anything?
And if they lie?
Which is a problem for me. I would much rather spend the time and money into education, not kicking people out of our country.
So you are completely uncapable of seeing life in someone else's shoes. Do you think your life is more valuable then their's or do you not have a soul?
1. The current plan is to do nothing.
2. The border could easily be shut tight. Troops, fences, and electronic counter measures. Look around the world plenty of places have done it.
3. We will find most of them. Get them properly registered for a guest worker program and the can go back to doing what they were doing. They are doing something illegal by
being here illegal, certainly that is not to hard to understand.:rolleyes:
4. If you don't think it solves anything then you don't think there is a problem. :borg:
5. Time and TAXPAYERS money for thier education! Now you are on to something. How much do you think we spend for the education of all of these children of illegals? What impact do you think that illegal aliens have on the border cities of say El Paso, TX or Southern Calif or LA???
6. I am completely capable of understanding the plight of illegal aliens, I just don't think that my taxes should bear the burden of their illegal acts or pay for their health care and education.:fumette:
Get them properly registered for a guest worker program and the can go back to doing what they were doing.
Hey! We agree on something.
Time and TAXPAYERS money for thier education! Now you are on to something. How much do you think we spend for the education of all of these children of illegals?
Public education is often lacking in resources, so, not nearly enough.
This 'us vs. them' mentality is bizarre and pointless. Maybe someday, those like you will realize that they ARE us, for your own peace of mind, anyway. :rolleyes:
This 'us vs. them' mentality is bizarre and pointless. Maybe someday, those like you will realize that they ARE us, for your own peace of mind, anyway. :rolleyes:
I am quite at peace with my views on the subject, have no doubt about that. They will become
us the day they become US citizens subject to all the rights and responsibilities of the US Constitution. Untill then they are illegal aliens and by being here are breaking our laws and sucking off the hind tit of what our society has to offer. If they come here legally I have no problem at all. We need LEGAL immigrants, but we don't need people circumventing the system for their personal gain so they can send the money out of the country. We already have enough corporate crooks doing that, that is another subject.
High Cost of Medical Care for Illegal Immigrants
Michael Arnold Glueck, M.D., & Robert J. Cihak, M.D., The Medicine Men
Tuesday, Dec. 27, 2005
We don't want to be thought of as Scrooges post-Christmas – particularly with the dashing approach of New Year 2006 – but we did want to make some comments regarding the consequences of illegal immigration on medicine and health care. This has certainly been one of the most important and far-reaching issues of 2005. We have received many letters from readers asking us to "Please say something" on this emotional and fractional issue.
An old axiom states that what happens in California is a precursor to what happens in the rest of the nation. Unfortunately, this is true. So look for these issues to be coming to a capital in your state soon – if they haven't arrived already.
According to the Department of Homeland Security, in 2000 the population of California had the highest percent of illegal immigrants in the country. The estimate by the Immigration and Naturalization Service was that 2,209,000 aliens resided illegally in the state, which was 31.6 percent of the estimated national total. Current 2005 illegal estimates vary between 14 million and 22 million nationwide.
A study by the Federation for American Immigration Reform estimated that in 2004 the annual uncompensated cost of medical care for illegal immigrants in California was $1.4 billion. Total uncompensated educational, health care and incarceration costs were estimated to be 10.5 billion.
Care is frequently provided to illegal immigrants by emergency rooms and is provided when a crisis exists rather than as preventive practice. Both phenomena add to the high cost of health care.
For 12 states, the government pays hospitals for providing emergency services to illegal aliens. In 2005, the state of California got $70 million to help with dismal shortfalls. California's San Diego County was about $100 million in the red and Los Angeles County about $140 million.
Many California hospitals cannot afford to absorb costs and many are forced to close due to financial mandates for treating illegal immigrants. As recently reported, 84 California hospitals are closing their doors forever. Hospital closure degrades health care to all in the community and results in job losses.
Federal laws provide states incentives to provide Medicaid coverage to illegal immigrants. All state Medicaid programs offer an endless list of services, with some states, such as Florida, literally including the kitchen sink if home repairs and maintenance are needed. Only four states check for citizenship before awarding Medicaid. California escalated – in one year – from 450,000 illegal aliens on Medi-Cal (California's version of Medicaid) in 2002 to 750,000 in 2003.
Medi-Cal covers well-baby maternity care, delivery expenses and long-term care that are incurred for children born to illegal immigrants. Thus "anchor babies" become medical insurance policies.
Noted medical lawyer Madeleine Cosman, J.D., Ph.D., wrote in her online journal on August 27, 2005, "Promoters of open borders and elevating the status of Illegal Aliens brilliantly use Americans' medical compassion against ourselves." The medical literature reports that many undocumented immigrants sequester within their bodies infectious and fatal diseases that long ago were fought and eliminated by American medicine Now illegals may carry drug-resistant strains of tuberculosis, malaria, polio, leprosy, plague, dengue fever and Chagas disease.
Are there Potential Solutions?
A number of potential solutions to reducing uncompensated health care costs require federal participation, which means that senators and congressmen from California and elsewhere must introduce federal legislation while state legislators and administrators do what is within their power to improve state laws and regulations.
Some potential solutions include:
Adopt measures to systematically collect information on undocumented alien use of taxpayer-funded services. Health care providers and civil libertarians have blocked past attempts to collect such information.
Withhold foreign aid to the country of origin in the amount spent providing uncompensated medical care and refund these moneys to providers that granted services.
Require graduates of U.S. medical schools who are citizens of foreign countries to spend community service time treating illegal immigrant patients in the U.S. as contribution in kind to defray expenses billable to that country of origin.
Provide transportation to cities in country of origin where that country is able to provide medical care.
Let's resolve, this New Year 2006, to promote a respectful exchange of ideas and opinions aimed at achieving a sane, safe and sensible solution to the immigration and medicine dilemma. With this goal our citizens, legal immigrants, illegal immigrants and those who desire to come to America and play by the rules will have a better quality of life.
It is far easier to make progress within a win-win, rather than a win-lose or lose-lose overture.
Such said, An uplifting New Year to you all!
Editor's Note: Michael Arnold Glueck, M.D., wrote this week's commentary. Contact Drs. Glueck and Cihak by e-mail.
Robert J. Cihak, M.D., is a Senior Fellow and Board Member of the Discovery Institute and a past president of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons. Michael Arnold Glueck, M.D., is a Visiting Fellow in Economics and Citizenship at the International Trade Education Foundation of the Washington International Trade Council. He comments regularly on medical-legal-ethical issues.
I agree that we should make it harder to get into the country because we can't have people coming into this country undocumented but those aren't the people we should be focusing on. There are many illegal aliens that have lived honest lives despite the fact that they have come into the country illegally.
I believe that any illegals that we have in prison should be deported and then encourage the rest of the illegals to gain citizenship. Hunting the illegals down like dogs will result in great consequences and personally, I think they help us more than they hurt. You can show how much they hurt our economy but how many stats do we hear that show how much they help since they are working long hours (80+ a week) on very low paying salaries.
You can show how much they hurt our economy but how many stats do we hear that show how much they help since they are working long hours (80+ a week) on very low paying salaries.
Ok, I don't have much time but let me give you a short answer. In the South we are experiencing a phenomenal building boom. The illegals dominate the labor force. Why? You pay them min wage, no taxes for the builders, no workman's comp is paid, no insurance. Guess who is loosing out on all those jobs. Legal citizens. The work force is dominated by these people. All the builders have to do is pay them cash, if they get hurt or injured on the job they don't have to pay them anything. The idividual is not going to complain, they are illegal and fear deportation. The builder gets a break on his costs of hiring workers and the legal laboror is locked out of the work force. Happens all the time. Same for yard workers, construction, and small businesses in food service. Guess who pays for the illegals health care. Guess who pays when they show up at the ER with pneumonia or a pregnant wife. Guess who pays when they fall off a roof. You, me, and the taxpayers.
TheMercenary, show me a legal documented worker whos willing to work those hours for that pay and do as good a job.
Whats that? There arent enough?
Whatever happened to laissez-faire conservatism anyway?
TheMercenary, show me a legal documented worker whos willing to work those hours for that pay and do as good a job.
Whats that? There arent enough?
Whatever happened to laissez-faire conservatism anyway?
You are ignoring the market forces. There are plenty of people in this area that would do the work. Think of it like this. If you have 25 people willing to do the job but only 10 jobs are available, who sets the price for their pay? The employer. And further costs are cut because of the fact that the employer does not have to pay all the other things that are required by law.
Now if you have 15 people for 10 jobs who benifits? The worker. Because the employer will need to compete with other employeer for that work force and the pay will go up. With the best workers getting the most money.
I believe that any illegals that we have in prison should be deported
Please tell me you are only referring to the ones who are in prison simply for being here illegally (of which there are very few, we don't have the resources to just hold onto them like that.)
"Okay, Jose AggravatedRobbery, instead of serving your 25 year sentence, we're going to free you and--dun dun DUN--deport you! Now don't come back, and we really mean it this time. And for really
reals don't come back and try to commit any crimes again."
Please tell me you are only referring to the ones who are in prison simply for being here illegally (of which there are very few, we don't have the resources to just hold onto them like that.)
"Okay, Jose AggravatedRobbery, instead of serving your 25 year sentence, we're going to free you and--dun dun DUN--deport you! Now don't come back, and we really mean it this time. And for really reals don't come back and try to commit any crimes again."
No, I mean transfer the violent felons directly to their capitol cities. Put them on a plane fly them down and drop them off. If their cops want to meet and put them in their prisons, if not put them back on
THEIR streets and off of our tax burden. Do you know what this country could do for it's people with 10 billion more dollars??? We could fix Social Security, we could assist the states with their programs for the under insured, the list is endless.
A study by the Federation for American Immigration Reform estimated that in 2004 the annual uncompensated cost of medical care for illegal immigrants in California was $1.4 billion. Total uncompensated educational, health care and incarceration costs were estimated to be 10.5 billion.
Care is frequently provided to illegal immigrants by emergency rooms and is provided when a crisis exists rather than as preventive practice. Both phenomena add to the high cost of health care.
I've posted about this several times ... including the recent verbiage from the back of a fake social security card ... with which, incidentally, the illegal in question used to successfully apply for medical assistance benefits, which were cancelled once his status was discovered. Just for this guy's treatment alone ... 11 days on the first admission (not including the costs of his having bitten off a chunk of the thumb of one of my coworkers, as well as the costs of medical treatment for the patient), then he was readmitted for attacking his family and stayed with us for another 8 days. 19 days of treatment at $1,000 day that will not be covered by any insurance or by the county which funds treatment for the indigent mentally ill. I don't expect him to show back up with $19K in a greasy paper bag, either. I have no doubt that he'll be back, and he's also not the only person we see without a genuine Cartas Verdes. This is part of why we won't be getting raises this year. Again.
Could this be why medical costs are climbing twice as fast as anything else? :eyebrow:
Could this be why medical costs are climbing twice as fast as anything else? :eyebrow:
I would consider it a contributing factor, among other things.
How does everyone know TheMercenary is posting lies? He cannot even touch a damning number. His solution: ignore those realities.
Then we provide something that extremists never bother to provide - the numbers. America needs 1.8 million immigrants to work the farms. America only issues 29,000 permits to do the work of 1.8 million. Therefore we must let the crops rot. Funny how once we include numbers, well TheMercenary advocated the destruction of American farming.
Hold TheMercenary's feet to that fire and he will run. He has to. 1.8 million are necessary; cannot be found elsewhere - unless we take in the 2 million Iraqi refugees that America created. But again TheMercenary let slip his fears and hate of others. Those 2 million Iraqi refugees are also evil. We must keep them out of America – as we did with so many Vietnamese boat people.
Crops rotting because TheMercenary advocates wacko extremists laws rather then fix a problem. 29,000 permits when 1.8 million are needed means one who fears anyone of a different color, race, or religion must protect those wacko extremist restrictions.
Why do we have an immigration problem? Notice how TheMercenary will do anything to avoid reality - America desperately needs those 1.8 million workers. People who pay taxes (withheld in their pay) and never get a refund because they are immigrants - therefore enrich governments. Just another fact that TheMercenary forgets to mention. People who mostly avoid all social services for fear of being caught. Just another reason to maintain wacko extremist restrictions; to pervert the rights of 1.8 million necessary workers. Notice how he also forgets to mention that illegal immigrant workers mean even more government funds - not less.
How does that explain the 16 million already here, tw? Your numbers say we can send 14 million home and you still won't have to pay more for your precious veggies ...... or is it fruits and nuts?:p
I just noticed the "mostly avoid social services", talk about blatent lies, as the NUMBERS presented in this thread have already proven.
People who pay taxes (withheld in their pay) and never get a refund because they are immigrants - therefore enrich governments.
Come on, you really think that a million migrant workers are all using fake Social Security numbers instead of just getting paid in cash? A very small number of illegals have proper paychecks and have taxes withheld (under someone else's valid SSN--which, incidentally, doesn't mean the government gets the money for free, it just means someone else gets the credit and the extra refund); the vast majority are paid in cash.
How does that explain the 16 million already here, tw? Your numbers say we can send 14 million home and you still won't have to pay more for your precious veggies ...... or is it fruits and nuts?:p
I just noticed the "mostly avoid social services", talk about blatent lies, as the NUMBERS presented in this thread have already proven.
He is talking out his ass Bruce. Ignore him, he has no plan.
How does everyone know TheMercenary is posting lies? He cannot even touch a damning number. His solution: ignore those realities. Hold TheMercenary's feet to that fire and he will run. He has to. 1.8 million are necessary; cannot be found elsewhere - unless we take in the 2 million Iraqi refugees that America created. But again TheMercenary let slip his fears and hate of others. Those 2 million Iraqi refugees are also evil. We must keep them out of America – as we did with so many Vietnamese boat people.
Crops rotting because TheMercenary advocates wacko extremists laws rather then fix a problem. 29,000 permits when 1.8 million are needed means one who fears anyone of a different color, race, or religion must protect those wacko extremist restrictions.
Why do we have an immigration problem? Notice how TheMercenary will do anything to avoid reality - America desperately needs those 1.8 million workers. People who pay taxes (withheld in their pay) and never get a refund because they are immigrants - therefore enrich governments. Just another fact that TheMercenary forgets to mention. People who mostly avoid all social services for fear of being caught. Just another reason to maintain wacko extremist restrictions; to pervert the rights of 1.8 million necessary workers. Notice how he also forgets to mention that illegal immigrant workers mean even more government funds - not less.
TW why the personal attacks? You don't like the message do you. Facts are facts. Illegal immigrants are breaking the back of our economy. Many aspects of our society have integrated thier role in field work and other jobs where employers get out of paying fair wages and insurance to legal workers, sure enough. We need to establish a firm policy and get these people on a work visa program where everyone is documented and monitored for compliance with our laws. All the rest need to go and go now. All illegal felons need to be kicked out and sent back to their country of origin now. These people are feed off the hind tit of our societies social programs and the are talking entitlements away from legal residents who deserve them. They have no rights under our Constitution. Illegals go home, come back when you are fully registered. There should be NO free rides.
Hold TheMercenary's feet to that fire and he will run. Notice how TheMercenary will do anything to avoid reality - America desperately needs those 1.8 million workers. People who pay taxes (withheld in their pay) and never get a refund because they are immigrants - therefore enrich governments. Just another fact that TheMercenary forgets to mention.
What a load of crap. Employers
do not withhold taxes from their pay if they a re illegal. Where the hell did you get that little ditty??? Are you illegal??? Taxes withheld and then passed on the the government??? You want us to believe that an employer is going to withhold taxes, send them to the govenment so they can tell the govenment that the are employing undocumented workers??!?!?! are you off your rocker. No one is going to do that and no one does it.
Ok lets compromise, 1.8 million go on an guest worker program immediatly and all the rest go home including their families, grandmothers, aunts, uncles, and brothers sisters cousins. That would be fair. And then get their employers to start to pay for their health insurance.
Illegals work other jobs too, not just on fields.
Also, even though I would guess that illegals are paid in cash (no idea), they still have sales tax and that so isn't like they are getting away with everything. This is also the reason why we should encourage them to become citizens. They already have jobs so if they become legal citizens, we will be able to tax them fairly.
Illegals work other jobs too, not just on fields.
Also, even though I would guess that illegals are paid in cash (no idea), they still have sales tax and that so isn't like they are getting away with everything. This is also the reason why we should encourage them to become citizens. They already have jobs so if they become legal citizens, we will be able to tax them fairly.
I don't want them to become citizens until the do all the things currently required by the system. I want them to be guest workers. A sales tax
is not a replacement for income tax. I wish it were. And I wish all I had to pay was the current sales tax and not tax on my earnings. Fed, state, medicare/medicade, and sales tax. Ad valorum tax on cars, and other toys. The list goes on. They get to send all those earnings home out of the country and out of the economy. There is no comparison. None.
Actually, at their wages they wouldn't be paying income tax even if they were legal. And they do pay sales tax and property tax (via rent). And, as mentioned before, the ones with fake SSNs pay payroll tax.
For starters, TheMercenary, you DO know that advocating that the government interfere in business by making the businesses not hire illegal immigrants is the very definition of not-conservative, right?
Make up your mind. Are you conservative or not?
What a load of crap. Employers do not withhold taxes from their pay if they a re illegal. Where the hell did you get that little ditty??? Are you illegal??? Taxes withheld and then passed on the the government??? You want us to believe that an employer is going to withhold taxes, send them to the govenment so they can tell the govenment that the are employing undocumented workers??!?!?! are you off your rocker. No one is going to do that and no one does it.
Ok lets compromise, 1.8 million go on an guest worker program immediatly and all the rest go home including their families, grandmothers, aunts, uncles, and brothers sisters cousins. That would be fair. And then get their employers to start to pay for their health insurance.
What we did (I grew-up working for a company the used illegals) was worked several illegals, up to ten or twelve, under one fake, sometimes real, SS# and hid most of what we paid them, so only a tenth or less of what we paid them would show and get taxed. Hell, then only half the time.
Health ins. LOL!!!!
I know why it is so bad because I have been in it first hand. If we had to find and pay legal workers decent wages we would have and could have. That we could not have is a lie, it is that simple.
I don't want them to become citizens until the do all the things currently required by the system. I want them to be guest workers.
Then TheMercenary wants wacko laws removed so that 1.8 million farm workers can work legally. But that is exactly the opposite of hate posted by TheMercenary previously. Why the sudden change of heart? Is extremism that difficult to maintain? Or maybe TheMercenary wants it both ways?
Meanwhile, this nation has 1.8 million illegal farm workers because it only issues 29,000 visas. Illegal immigration is not the problem. The problem are the same laws that also leave 2 million 'American created' Iraqi refugees with no place to go.
Problem is not the illegals. Problems are laws that people such as TheMercenary want.
Meanwhile what does America do with more immigrants that wacko extremists Americans created. One in five people now in Jordan is an Iraqi refugee. America created them. Instead, our wacko administration dumps our refugees onto other nations. We should be taking in 2 million Iraqis - if a compassionate conservative was not lying.
WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER 14 MILLION, tw?:eyebrow:
What a load of crap. Employers do not withhold taxes from their pay if they a re illegal. Where the hell did you get that little ditty???
From the IRS, maybe? Look up ITIN on their website. Millions of immigrants have them. Our own government estimates that BILLIONS of dollars are paid in taxes by undocumented immigrants.
Did you get that article you posted from NewsMax.com? That's like me posting an opinion piece from Mother Jones. And excuse me if I don't trust any numbers that come out of the "Federation for American Immigration Reform"--they aren't exactly unbiased.
You're complaining about 'your' tax dollars paying for this and that, but what do you think would pay for all this 'action' you're calling for?
They get to send all those earnings home out of the country and out of the economy.
Last I checked, money that any worker earns belongs to him/her, to do with what he/she sees fit. Undocumented immigrants are far from being the only workers who send money out of the country, anyway.
I don't blame them. They are working with what they got. The only way to solve this is to find a way that will help both of us, which doesn't seem like the kind of answer America is looking for right now.
For starters, TheMercenary, you DO know that advocating that the government interfere in business by making the businesses not hire illegal immigrants is the very definition of not-conservative, right?
Make up your mind. Are you conservative or not?
I am NOT a conservative on each and every issue. I will not and I don't think most people are pigeon-holed into this and that. I want the government to hold all businesses that hire illegals collective feet to the fire.
I don't blame them. They are working with what they got. The only way to solve this is to find a way that will help both of us, which doesn't seem like the kind of answer America is looking for right now.
I think, generally, America does want that. They just don't rant and rave about it. :)
In many jurisdictions, employers are required to have SS and other tax information for employees. Phony numbers are necessary to get a job and pay withholding tax. The illegal immigrant never gets that withholding back.
We even had the scandal of undocumented nanny's. Employers who don't withhold money from their employees can be prosecuted which is why government makes so much more money on illegal immigrant workers.
In many jurisdictions, employers are required to have SS and other tax information for employees. Phony numbers are necessary to get a job and pay withholding tax. The illegal immigrant never gets that withholding back.
Poor fellas.
:stickpoke
Poor fellas.
Which is why we must double the numbers of illegal immigrants. Oh. There's 2 million American created refugees. Good. More illegal immigrants. Deficiet solved.
Which is why we must double the numbers of illegal immigrants.
Can we eat them for food? :shotgun:
WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER 14 MILLION, tw?
WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER 14 MILLION, tw?
He stated he wants it to be 28 million. Maybe he is illegal or hires them for his business. It is cheaper for the business to do so. A huge savings on anyones bottom line.
WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER 14 MILLION, tw?
The 1.8 simply demonstrate a similar problem that all 28 million will have because too many of us fear rather than act like Americans.
One in three Silicon Valley companies is founded by Indian and Chinese immigrants. What is their largest problem? Why are so many moving operations out of America where possible? America so hates all immigrants that these companies cannot even obtain correct forms to save their people from immigration agents. Remember, it is the immigrants (legal and illegal) that are both some of America's most productive workers AND the source of most future productive workers. So what do we do now that we promote hate and fear? We even drive out of America the high tech standards conferences, research, etc simply because less productive 'citizens' and an equally dumb president would promote myths and fear.
Problem is not the immigrants - legal and illegal - that so many citizens want to drive out (intentionally or by ignorance). Problem is the citizens so fearful and so full of myths (ie they have come for the welfare) as to undermine America's future.
How to solve America's immigrant problem? Get rid of silly restrictions and make them legal. But then government will have to pay tax refunds. Better to promote hate.
What is a more common reason for immigrants who leave America voluntarily? America is too hard. America demands too much work. The immigrants that leave go back to countries where life is easier. But again, those who *know* using myths will completely ignore this reality.
The illegal immigrant problem is really hate promoted by extremist wings of political parties. As was demonstrated in one mid west state, when illegal immigrants were driven out, that entire part of the state then went into recession. Finally the residents demanded Immigration agents leave – so they could save their economy - rehire illegal immigrants. That history has also been repeated in Europe. Realities that those who promote hate and fear also forget to learn.
28 million, day-am. Thats one hell of a social services bill. I wonder how many are on welfare? Probably about the same proportion as the general population. Medical services are really expensive, though..... just for the kids born here that are legal.
Hey, that's an idea...tell 'em when they are caught they will be deported and banned forever, but were keeping the kids for farm labor. heh, heh, heh.
No I'm not serious, but I'll bet I raised some hackles, right Blue?
Yeah, I've heard the mid-western state thing before, but never seen any evidence it's not an old wives tale. You know, it wouldn't hurt to have a peer reviewed study proving there were no factors other than rounding up the criminals, had any effect?
Bet you haven't either.
Oh, bwa ha ha...'specially the part about the welfare. ;)
28 million, day-am. Thats one hell of a social services bill. I wonder how many are on welfare? Probably about the same proportion as the general population.
Social services are mostly spent on American citizens. Immigrants are here because they want to work. Social services do more for less money in other countries. Why would they come here for social services when, as illegals, they risk being deported. And yet still, the common myth is they are stealing social services.
How do reduce America's tax burden for social services? Double the number of illegal immigrants. Then governments get richer. Then the percentage of people dependent on social services goes down. Then companies who supply social services can find people to do that work.
Social services are mostly spent on American citizens. Immigrants are here because they want to work. Social services do more for less money in other countries. Why would they come here for social services when, as illegals, they risk being deported. And yet still, the common myth is they are stealing social services.
The hospitals are essentially prevented from calling ICE. The few doctors that I know who have called are ignored. If you don't think that they come here to have thier babies you are wrong. Once the baby is born it is a naturalized citizen. Part of the grand plan.:neutral:
If you don't think that they come here to have thier babies you are wrong. Once the baby is born it is a naturalized citizen. Part of the grand plan.:neutral:
Like cats who sneak into other people's sheds to have their kittens...?
Like cats who sneak into other people's sheds to have their kittens...?
The same, but thank God multiple birth in humans is less common. :D
--snip--Once the baby is born it is a citizen. Part of the grand plan.:neutral:
corrected.
corrected.
Correct, thanks. Naturalized is what the parents should want to be, but I am not convinced that many do.
Social services are mostly spent on American citizens. Immigrants are here because they want to work. Social services do more for less money in other countries. Why would they come here for social services when, as illegals, they risk being deported. And yet still, the common myth is they are stealing social services.
Oh... you missed post 87 and a hundred similar articles that have been posted or linked in the threads on immigration. tw, you're eyes are brown.
This is a fairly long thread, so maybe someone has already said this, but to be certain, the simple, most direct solution to the illegal immigration problem is to improve conditions in the illegal immigrants' native country. In other words, remove the reason for immigrating to begin with. If this requires aid and/or dropping the hammer on a few foreign government officials, so be it.
This is a fairly long thread, so maybe someone has already said this, but to be certain, the simple, most direct solution to the illegal immigration problem is to improve conditions in the illegal immigrants' native country. In other words, remove the reason for immigrating to begin with. If this requires aid and/or dropping the hammer on a few foreign government officials, so be it.
Well dumping taxpayers money into the World Bank and on impoverished nations has been pretty unsuccessful so far, I doubt dumping more money from the US will improve conditons. So why not tighten things up a bit and control movement better?
This is a fairly long thread, so maybe someone has already said this, but to be certain, the simple, most direct solution to the illegal immigration problem is to improve conditions in the illegal immigrants' native country. In other words, remove the reason for immigrating to begin with.
It was discussed extensively previously. Only round of WTO to fail would be directly traceable to the two nations who so want to skew trade unfairly. As a result, then entire world, angry at France and the US, walked out three days early in Cancun. This was widely reported throughout the world and little reported in America were a Rush Limbaugh mentality had so taken control.
United States so massively subsidizes agriculture as to make it impossible for people in other nations to create jobs in industries such as citrus, sugar, wheat, maize (corn), cotton, soybeans, etc The list of jobs better performed in those other nations is long. And those people cannot succeed because America perverted free trade prices with massive government welfare.
For example, prices of Oranges are up 50% due to bad orange crops in CA and FL. Brazil has more than enough to fill this need. America's massive tariffs keep Brazilian oranges out even with a 50% price increase on domestic crops.
American ethanol is a joke. It consumes more energy than is created. But Brazil has pioneered superior solutions long ago that can provide useful ethanol. So America puts a $0.54 per gallon surcharge on Brazilian ethanol. We are free traders?
Sugar is best grown in places such as Africa. 50% of American sugar is paid for by US government subsidizes. Yes, half the sugar in a container is paid for by the the US government. Therefore Africans cannot start sugar businesses. And so it goes
The Doha round of WTO will be a first trade conference ever to fail. World is quite blunt about whose government welfare makes it impossible for other countries to compete in agriculture products best suited in their nations. So their people must go where the jobs are - in America. That's 1.8 million just for agriculture.
WTO was put into stasis in a hope that the Doha round could be restarted after George Jr is gone. World has no illusions who is the anti-free trader here. By putting talks into stasis, it was hoped the accomplishments of those discussions could be saved and implemented.
Meanwhile, jobs created by socialism in America mean we need far more immigrants that permitts by draconian laws.
Oh... you missed post 87 and a hundred similar articles that have been posted or linked in the threads on immigration. tw, you're eyes are brown.
I only ignore silly lies and personal biases posted as if fact. Facts are otherwise. When illegal immigrants are removed, an economy goes into recession. Why? Most productive people in regional econmies include the illegals.
Most severe drain on social services are Americans. Illegals are only a drain where "I feel" gets perverted as if fact. Facts in NE were blunt. As soon as immigration cracked down on illegals, the resulting recession was so bad that local governments asked immigration agents to leave. That is reality. Illegals are only a drain on social services when emotionals see what they want to see. Meanwhile illegals are some of the most product members in local economies.
I only ignore silly lies and personal biases posted as if fact. Facts are otherwise. When illegal immigrants are removed, an economy goes into recession. Why? Most productive people in regional econmies include the illegals.
Most severe drain on social services are Americans. Illegals are only a drain where "I feel" gets perverted as if fact. Facts in NE were blunt. As soon as immigration cracked down on illegals, the resulting recession was so bad that local governments asked immigration agents to leave. That is reality. Illegals are only a drain on social services when emotionals see what they want to see. Meanwhile illegals are some of the most product members in local economies.
Good propaganda from an illegal alien point of view. It serves them to make people fear that their absence will somehow cause the economy to collapse. Fear mongering does not change the fact that they are breaking the law and draining our nation of vital opportunities to repair our over stretched social systems straining to support these people at great cost to the US taxpayers.
Immigration Issue Centers : Illegal Immigration
Social Security Funds for Illegal Aliens?
“Adding millions of lawbreakers to the Social Security system would be a slap in the face to our retirees. Why should we bend over backwards for those who broke our laws to work in this country while shortchanging the needs of hardworking Americans and legal immigrants who have put money into the Social Security system for decades? With Social Security in financial trouble, it is totally insane even to think about adding millions and millions of alien lawbreakers into the system. Congress must act now to pass H.R. 1631 and keep this travesty from happening."
— Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-CA) [1]
http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServer?pagename=iic_immigrationissuecenters3acf
A significant portion of rising health premiums is due to subsidizing the medical costs of uninsured illegal aliens.
As detailed in Illegal aliens threaten U.S. medical system between 1993 and 2003, 60 California hospitals closed because half their services were unpaid. Another 24 California hospitals are on the verge of closure. Both PA and NJ hospitals recently reported that they provided almost $2 billion in free emergency and short term care services, in large part to illegal aliens. Minnesota county commissioners say that the cost of medical care for uninsured immigrants is too high for local governments to bear and they expect a $4.2 billion budget shortfall over the next two years. NC has about $1.4 billion in un-reimbursed hospital expenses annually. The Texas Hospital Association directly spent $393 million treating illegal aliens in 2002. One third of the patients treated by the LA County Health System are illegal aliens and the system is facing a $300 million deficient. In AZ, the Southeast Arizona Medical Center had a $1 billion shortfall and recently filled for bankruptcy.
http://www.smalltowndefenders.com/public/node/114
For American farmers, the answer has been to keep importing workers—which has now made the farmers more vulnerable to foreign competition, since even minimum-wage immigrant workers can’t compete with produce picked on farms in China, Chile, or Turkey and shipped here cheaply. A flood of low-priced Turkish raisins several years ago produced a glut in the United States that sharply drove down prices and knocked some farms out of business, shrinking total acreage in California devoted to the crop by one-fifth, or some 50,000 acres. The farms that survived are now moving to mechanize swiftly, realizing that no amount of cheap immigrant labor will make them competitive.
As foreign competition and mechanization shrink manufacturing and farmworker jobs, low-skilled immigrants are likely to wind up farther on the margins of our economy, where many already operate. For example, although only about 12 percent of construction workers are foreign-born, 100,000 to 300,000 illegal immigrants have carved a place for themselves as temporary workers on the fringes of the industry. In urban areas like New York and Los Angeles, these mostly male illegal immigrants gather on street corners, in empty lots, or in Home Depot parking lots to sell their labor by the hour or the day, for $7 to $11 an hour.
That’s far below what full-time construction workers earn, and for good reason. Unlike the previous generations of immigrants who built America’s railroads or great infrastructure projects like New York’s bridges and tunnels, these day laborers mostly do home-improvement projects. A New York study, for instance, found that four in ten employers who hire day laborers are private homeowners or renters wanting help with cleanup chores, moving, or landscaping. Another 56 percent were contractors, mostly small, nonunion shops, some owned by immigrants themselves, doing short-term, mostly residential work. The day laborer’s market, in other words, has turned out to be a boon for homeowners and small contractors offering their residential clients a rock-bottom price, but a big chunk of the savings comes because low-wage immigration has produced such a labor surplus that many of these workers are willing to take jobs without benefits and with salaries far below industry norms.
Because so much of our legal and illegal immigrant labor is concentrated in such fringe, low-wage employment, its overall impact on our economy is extremely small. A 1997 National Academy of Sciences study estimated that immigration’s net benefit to the American economy raises the average income of the native-born by only some $10 billion a year—about $120 per household. And that meager contribution is not the result of immigrants helping to build our essential industries or making us more competitive globally but instead merely delivering our pizzas and cutting our grass. Estimates by pro-immigration forces that foreign workers contribute much more to the economy, boosting annual gross domestic product by hundreds of billions of dollars, generally just tally what immigrants earn here, while ignoring the offsetting effect they have on the wages of native-born workers.
http://www.city-journal.org/html/16_3_immigrants_economy.htmlPart of the grand plan.
The same, but thank God multiple birth in humans is less common.
propaganda...Fear mongering...
You really need to listen to yourself. And again, your sources are too biased to be credible.
You really need to listen to yourself. And again, your sources are too biased to be credible.
Ok.:guinness: If you say so. I thought their original source references were pretty good.
For example:
Article 1:
The Social Security Administration
“Congressional Response Report: Social Security Administration Benefits Related to Unauthorized Work,” Social Security Administration, Office of the Inspector General, March 2003
Harvard economists George Borjas and Lawrence Katz
Article 2 and 3:
A study of the impact of immigration on New York City’s restaurant business
Kenyon College economists
Agricultural economists Wallace Huffman and Alan McCunn of Iowa State University
A 1997 National Academy of Sciences study
A 1998 National Academy of Sciences study
:stpaddy:
If I have a large house that I worked for and my neighbors decide that they want to move into my guest room it is my right to kick their asses out and lock the door... it is that simple.
People gotta' deal.
Well, rk, it's not only your house, so it's not that simple.
You also have to remember that we not only kicked the orginal owners out of the house but also used them as target practice.
I only ignore silly lies and personal biases posted as if fact. Facts are otherwise. When illegal immigrants are removed, an economy goes into recession. Why? Most productive people in regional econmies include the illegals.
Sure, who better to scare into making you richer than someone afraid of the INS.
Most severe drain on social services are Americans. Illegals are only a drain where "I feel" gets perverted as if fact. Facts in NE were blunt. As soon as immigration cracked down on illegals, the resulting recession was so bad that local governments asked immigration agents to leave. That is reality.
Care to cite that happening?
Illegals are only a drain on social services when emotionals see what they want to see.
Only facts you post are really facts, everyone that post contradictory facts are to emotional to be believed. Well, excuuuuuuuse me.
Meanwhile illegals are some of the most product members in local economies.
You keep saying that. You must really like oppressing them.
By the way, that bullshit about the government making money on unclaimed refunds paid in federal tax?
How many people that don't have a mortgage and filled out the W-4 form properly, get a refund? Pretty few I'll bet.
Even though you want to exploit illegals so you can get your veggies cheaper that doesn't make them stupid.
If you knew you were illegal and weren't going to file, no less get a refund, wouldn't you pad the W-4 form with plenty of Dependants to minimize the tax bite? Well since you couldn't figure it out, I guess the illegals are smarter than you.
Well, rk, it's not only your house, so it's not that simple.
You're
right, it's a whole nation... a
whole lot worse.
You also have to remember that we not only kicked the orginal owners out of the house but also used them as target practice.
How is that relevant to us now? None of us did that and none of us need own it.
We have one of the most liberal and easy to navigate immigration and work visa systems in the world, anyone is welcome to legally utilize it.
Geraldo and O'Reilly --
to the death!
Geraldo and O'Reilly -- to the death!
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