Tattoo You?
Of course everybody knows once you done it you've got it for good.
Smithsonian says;
Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology showed that about one quarter of adults age 18 to 50 in the United States currently have a tattoo. Of those, almost 30 percent had considered removing or covering the tattoo with a new one, or had already covered it.
I've got one and hadn't thought about any more, but I don't have one where it wold show in my normal clothes. At my age it doesn't much matter, but somebody starting out in the cold cruel world might think twice about a visible tat.
Having them removed is tricky, there's "dermabrasion", which is all that was available for thousands of years. Basically its scraping or sanding the thing off, you know that's going to hurt and probably leave a scar. Not good for tender areas.
Then came the laser;
Modern laser tattoo removal is credited to University of Cincinnati dermatologist Leon Goldman, who unveiled his method in the late 1960s. Goldman's laser assaulted the tattooed skin with "hot vapor bursts" that left it charred, Time magazine described on Oct. 20, 1967. Even at its best, the process left behind "cosmetically acceptable scars."
In the late 1980s, Anderson improved Goldman's procedure, creating a laser system that removed a tattoo, scar and all. But even Anderson's method worked only three-quarters of the time, he says. The process is also unpredictable, takes as many as 20 monthly treatments that can cost thousands of dollars a pop.
So I wouldn't count on getting rid of it, better think twice about committing to it. But what if it was a quasi-commitment like marriage.... where you could dump it in a heartbeat? Would that change your mind? Later on this year you could have that option.
Instead of focusing on laser improvement, they have created an ink that dissolves naturally in the body when treated just once with a typical removal laser.
"I realized it's better to work on the ink than on the laser," Anderson says. "This is the first time a tattoo ink has actually been designed from a biological and material science point of view."
Typical tattoo inks are not regulated by the Food and Drug Administration. While some are made safely from carbon or iron oxide, others, particularly yellow compounds, contain carcinogens. The ink rests in tiny beads that remain lodged in the skin after a tattoo is applied. During removal, a laser blasts these nano-sized beads with enough heat to make them rupture, releasing the ink into the body. Some of the potentially harmful ink ends up in the body's lymph nodes, part of the immune system.
Freedom-2 inks are made from safe pigments—the orange ink, for example, contains beta-carotene, commonly found in carrots—and trapped in harmless polymer shells. When a Freedom-2 tattoo is removed by laser, the ink dissolves biologically, leaving only the innocuous, invisible shells.
That sounds like a good idea, to have a safer ink in your body even, or maybe especially, if you plan on keeping it forever. It would still cost a good amount to be rid of it but it can be done...safely. Now would you go for it?
But there is one more wrinkle on the horizon.
The scientists are also designing polymer shells that biodegrade on their own, without a laser's nudge, over a matter of months, says Edith Mathiowitz of Brown University, who engineered Freedom-2's beads.
"This could be a new type of jewelry," Mathiowitz says.
I can't see the point of going through the tattooing and healing, which let's face it, isn't pleasant, to have it go away in a few months. I suppose you could do it and if you like it, have it redone when it departs, but daaammmn.
The only reason to use that ink is when you get drunk and have "Fuck You Boss" tattooed on your forehead. You'll be out of work and couldn't afford a laser treatment, but just wait a few months and you'll be saved.:worried:
hey, you ganked that from my link?
It's so very sad when you regret a tattoo. They are forever, so think about it VERY hard, get the best artist you can, not just walk in off the street, and be SURE. If you're not sure, wait.
Get a piercing! :)
Get a piercing! :)
Some people either look cute or edgy with a piercing. Not everyone can carry it off. Anyone can have a tattoo and have it work.
but you don't have to get a piercing where people can see. I have 6 tattoos, including a full back piece of a phoenix that took 20 hours. I have 11 piercings, too. They are "my thing."
I am a 50 year professional paralegal and grandmother of 5. It's a form of self-expression any one can avail themselves of. If you know what you are doing. Great for the self-esteem and the sex life.
Don't make the mistake of thinking this stuff is just for rebellious teenagers. In particular, I don't like to see very young people get extensive tattooing.
Some people either look cute or edgy with a piercing. Not everyone can carry it off. Anyone can have a tattoo and have it work.
If I got a tattoo or piercing it would just look funny and awkward. They don't fit me, since I look like a dweeb no matter what I do.
hey, you ganked that from my link?
I beg your pardon? Madam I assure you, although I partake in certain vices or socially unacceptable behaviors, occasionally.... usually under the influence of demon rum or the spell of a bewitching creature, I never, ever, gank. :bs:
Been wanting a tat for some time... was going to get one for my birthday last week, but going to use the jack for a DS Lite instead.
DS Lite? :confused:
Nintendo DS LiteI got some tats, two to be exact. I got the first one because I was the only one out of my group of people to have it...to get it first I guess. Kinda rebellious but mostly because I've always loved art, and I've always liked to draw on my skin. It just looks cool!
The only thing I regret is picking the tattoo that I did. I picked a colorful, pretty looking butterfly because I figured if it was "pretty" my mom wouldn't get so mad. Boy, that was dumb. I should have just gotten whatever I wanted, if she was gonna act like that anyway.
The second one I got because on Mothers Day a couple of years ago I talked my mom into getting one for herself. Imagine that. She didn't talk to me for a month when I got mine. She turns 50 and gets one. My how the world changes.
Oh, and by the way I have piercings too...normal perhaps, but I have 9 in the ears, 5 in the left ear and 4 on the right ear, plus my nose piercing. I think they're tactful. They're just my way of standing apart...being me...because I like them.
No tatoos here, occasionally flirt with the idea, but worked ina nursing home and know what will happen to them eventually... Only one normal piercing left in each ear. (I let the others close up long ago.)
My kid's daycare is doing occupations this week. Yesterday morning I was looking at the art displayed on the wall, which is of each childs drawing of what they wanted to be when the grow up. My daughter, drew a fireman, others were princesses, spiderman, another fireman etc. Typical 3-4 year old ideas. Then I get to one and it says Tatoo Artist! You'd get a bigger kick out of this if you knew the child who wrote this, but she is a very gorgeous, extremely shy little girl. WTF!!
the cute little shy ones are typically the freaky ones.
No tatoos here, occasionally flirt with the idea, but worked in a nursing home and know what will happen to them eventually...
When I first wanted to get a tattoo in my teens my bf told me to wait a year to see if I still wanted it - great advice and I've suggested it to people on here.
At the time it wasn't mainstream for women to get tatoos. Certainly not in the provincial town I grew up in - there were women with tattoos but they hid out the daylight in cheap pubs and were rough as arseholes. So I conceived my clever idea of having one that would be hidden if I wanted - ie on my lower back. Hey - hipster jeans weren't around then!
AnyWAY. I talked about it to people at work as well as friends & family. The opinion I heard most often was, "OMG Sundae, how will you feel when you're a Grandmother and have a tattoo?!" And I thought - hang on, I'm never going to become a dear sweet silver haired old lady from an Enid Blyton book - I'm still going to be
me....
Never understood where they were coming from. Having knuckles the size of walnuts and tits down to my knees will be far more stressful than having a wrinkly old tattoo.
(This isn't aimed at you LabRat, just your post put me in mind of it.)
i like my tattoos. both of them i had thought about long and hard for over a year before i got them.
right deltoid of my own design of an ankh with infinity symbol.
chest tattoo of the constellation orion (2 months ago)
Me getting a tattoo is akin to taking a black magic marker to the Mona Lisa. :rolleyes:
Me getting a tattoo is akin to taking a black magic marker to the Mona Lisa. :rolleyes:
hee, hee! me, too, shawnee! Only mine would be more like taking a black magic marker to Munch's "the SCREAM".
hee, hee! me, too, shawnee! Only mine would be more like taking a black magic marker to Munch's "the SCREAM".
You're gorgeous, dahlink...you don't need any extra adornments. :)
You're gorgeous, dahlink...you don't need any extra adornments. :)
ch'yeah.
When I was younger I thought a tattoo would be cool to have... but never had the opportunity to get what I wanted... mostly due to the types of jobs I had and the locations I wanted the tattoos... I almost got one when I quite Corporate America and joind the ranks of music store clerks... but then I met Flint...
Here is his Tattoo and the reason why you'll never see a tattoo on my body:
Now let me elaborate... that is a "wedding band" from his former "marriage" (lasted less than a year)... we've tried to get rid of it and haven't had a whole lot of luck. I can only hope it helps our daughter make better decisions about them when she is older...
Now let me elaborate... that is a "wedding band" from his former "marriage" (lasted less than a year)... we've tried to get rid of it and haven't had a whole lot of luck. I can only hope it helps our daughter make better decisions about them when she is older...
Not keen on chopping the finger off?
April has three tats, one of them involving us. I've got ideas for 2 for myself, but I need to spend my dough on more important things at the moment.
....Having knuckles the size of walnuts and tits down to my knees will be far more stressful than having a wrinkly old tattoo.
I have seen tits within mms of a belly button, and can never ever unsee them again... Which is why, though I wish i had larger breasties now, am grateful for what I have been granted.
BTW, you can't imagine how bad a vagina can look...:worried:
Not keen on chopping the finger off?
Believe me there have been days.
We have contemplated excision, but we don't want to do anything that might limit mobility... he kinda likes the use of all his fingers... sorta helps with the drumming and all... funny that.
It is a hard lesson learned... and supporting evidence for the theory that tattoos related to relationships are like curses (although in his case I think it had less to do with a curse and more to do with an idiot... I guess that is lucky for me though)
Believe me there have been days.
We have contemplated excision, but we don't want to do anything that might limit mobility... he kinda likes the use of all his fingers... sorta helps with the drumming and all... funny that.
It is a hard lesson learned... and supporting evidence for the theory that tattoos related to relationships are like curses (although in his case I think it had less to do with a curse and more to do with an idiot... I guess that is lucky for me though)
It's just a scar from a bad decision. Most of us end up with them at one point or another, some of us choose the location and shape, some of us don't. Some don't show on the outside. Don't sweat it. Better this than something deeply embedded in the soul. Cover it up with your own ring or pick a differet finger or different adornment to be significant for you as a couple. It's just a scar.
BTW, you can't imagine how bad a vagina can look...:worried:
A family had decided to go on a nudist holiday together, so the parents walked around their house naked for a week to acclimatise their young son to the human form.
His only reaction was to point to his Mummy's pubis and say, "What's that?"
"That's my hedgehog," she replied.
All was going well at the camp, until one day the little boy came in from playing, crying his little eyes out.
"What's wrong?" asked his Father.
The little boy pointed to an old woman walking past, "I think someone ran over that lady's hedgehog, " said the boy, "All its guts are hanging out!"
tattoos about people work best when they're about mothers, fathers, sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, dead people . . . and pet people.
Nothing sadder than a regretted tattoo.
It's just a scar.
And my goal is to have it replaced with an
actual scar.
I think you should do a cover up, i.e., instead of futily trying to make it go away, cover it up with something bigger, badder, cooler, and guaranteed to make you forget.
I think you should do a cover up, i.e., instead of futily trying to make it go away, cover it up with something bigger, badder, cooler, and guaranteed to make you forget.
Tattoo his whole hand brown? :haha:
That's really interesting. I was just talking about this concept with a friend of mine the other day. Although, I didn't know they were actually close to being able to do it. I had said that, if tattoos could be somewhat permanent, like my marriage, I'd get full sleeves for a few years. I have two already. I got the first one when I was 16, and really got it just to get a tattoo, not because I was in love with the rose that is now on my back. I wish I had thought more about that one, but it is what it is. It would probably bother me more if I saw it on a regular basis. I love the second, and I'll probably get at least two more.
none of my tattoos will be getting removed.. one I'm not so keen on, but it's more to do with the quality of work than the design, I got it when I was 25 and at that point i'd been thinking about getting one since I was 18 or so.. the same design kept coming to mind.. and pretty much since then I've been trying to get one every 3 years.. rule of 3's you know (although I am a little behind this year) to me they serve as reiminder and/or roadmarks. (of who and what I am and who and what I want to be..as well as who I have been).. which I finally got the image offa the damn camera, so I can finally post it on the tattoo thread I started months ago... damn procrastination!
no regrets...ever
BTW, you can't imagine how bad a vagina can look...:worried:
Oh yeah I can, I saw those Britney pics!!!! :worried: :greenface
Kagen - your chest looks great...I mean...the chest tatt looks great :blush:
I have two tatts and want to get another, but I havent had inspiration yet.
And my goal is to have it replaced with an actual scar.
More pain? You're already suffering enough by the sound of it. If you must endure pain to obliterate it, why not modify it/cover it up with another tattoo meaningful to you and pooka, so that in future you can look on as progress and fulfilment rather than punishment and failure?
Do I take it you cannot wear jewelery and the like? If so, I feel for you. I have the tiniest wedding/engagement rings, but they still drive me nuts when my eczema plays up. There are many reasons why I wouldn't get a tattoo, but fear of allergy to the ink/needle is a major one.
but you don't have to get a piercing where people can see. I have 6 tattoos, including a full back piece of a phoenix that took 20 hours.
Any chance of you posting a picture of the phoenix?
Wow, I'd like to see that too, Cloud.
Welcome to the Cellar caitlen. :D Fess up, you just joined for the free birthday cake, didn't ya.
@ Flint. Do the people you come in contact with know it's from your first marriage? Or is it just because you know? For yourself, it seems to me, a scar would be just as much a reminder as the tat. Just the satisfaction of obliterating the last tangible evidence? :confused:
JW, (I haven't taken the time to read the entire thread) is the needling like, the needle for a flu shot, or getting blood drawn? Cause I would love a tattoo, its creative body art that all human cultures have or had embraced as beautiful. But I hate needles. What a catch.
I wouldnt describe it as either like a flu shot OR getting blood drawn. Its just a constant scratching type annoying pain....not hurtful as such.
Meatier places are less painful....eg, my boob tatt didnt hurt at all, but the one on my shoulder blade kinda hurt....it took 3 hours and I am a bleeder (didnt help) but theres not alot of meat over the shoulder bone, so its tender.
Is the needling like, the needle for a flu shot, or getting blood drawn? Cause I would love a tattoo, its creative body art that all human cultures have or had embraced as beautiful. But I hate needles.
What Ducks said.
If it's not being done in your line of vision you wouldn't associate it with a needle at all. It really is a scratching feeling - like catching yourself on brambles.
It affects different people differently - my Mum has had 3 kids and is the tough sort of person who would pack an amputated arm in frozen peas and walk to the hospital - but she had to ask for a break when having her rather small tattoo done. My ex called me in the middle of the night on a mercy mission when he cut himself, thinking he might need stitches (it was a shallow scrape) - and yet he had 3 x 1 hours sessions on his shoulder/ back tattoo and nearly fell asleep.
I was amazed by how little it hurt at first, but after a while the vibrations really set my teeth on edge and I thought I'd never get through it.
For the record, my back tattoo (and remember, YOU asked for it!)
no regrets...ever
* was think'in* :blush: umm If I looked like you Kagen I wouldn't have any regrets either. :blush:
For the record, my back tattoo (and remember, YOU asked for it!)
Beautiful tatoo cloud. A couple of women at work have had full back tatoos done. I respect that freedom one must have over self to go all the way like that! :thumb:
@ Flint. Do the people you come in contact with know it's from your first marriage? Or is it just because you know? For yourself, it seems to me, a scar would be just as much a reminder as the tat. Just the satisfaction of obliterating the last tangible evidence? :confused:
I know you asked Flint, not me, but.... I'm terrible about butting in...
Everyone we know is aware it is from the first marriage... which really doesn't matter. They all know the circumstances and it is no big deal. We generally forget it is even there until new people we meet comment on it which leads to the conversation about it being from a former marriage... apologies are issued... etc.
The "marriage" was of so little consequence that it doesn't merit that much attention. It could have been annulled, but that required more effort on our part than the divorce process... (we divorced our former spouses at the same time... made a date out of it actually). It has nothing to do with pain... it is more of an annoyance than anything.
Personally, I wouldn't want to wear my old wedding rings either (not to mention it would sort of be insulting) fortunately, mine weren't tattooed, but if they had been... I'm with Flint. I'd rather have a flesh toned scar than the actual tattoo...
why replace something you were talked into in the first place with something else you don't want... just be done with it.
Flint doesn't wear metal rings on his fingers... his wedding band is worn on a chain... occasionally... when he remembers to wear it... actually we are both pretty bad about putting our rings on... ring or no ring... we're still married.
Cloud - wow!
Totally different to what I was expecting (said ex also had the phoenix)
Very very pretty and delicate for such a large tattoo.
I wouldn't consider it for myself, but I think it looks fantastic.
Well, um, tat people...one good thing is if CSI ever needs to identify your body your "distinguishing marks or tattoos" fairly scream your identity. ;)
ring or no ring... we're still married
Well said, Pooka! :)
LOL! Yes, I often imagine myself on the slab--and the rundown of distinguishing marks . . . too many to list!
If anyone is interested--I was burned badly as a child over about a quarter of my torso, so I have extensive burn and graft scars. I got into body modification as a way to kind of counteract that. And, my scars are no longer the most distinguishing feature of my body!
I'm even more impressed now (at the symbolism and your attitude towards it).
Thank you. It represents the eternal possibility of new beginnings to me.
It was done by Dawn Purnell of 4 Star Tattoo in Santa Fe, New Mexico--20 hours over a year and a half (on Saturday drive up 4 hours, get 2 hours tattooed, drive back 2 hours, collapse all day Sunday). That is a $2,000 tattoo, folks, and worth every penny--to me.
ring or no ring... we're still married.
Absolutely. Sorry if I was too nosey.
Absolutely. Sorry if I was too nosey.
Dude... no way... trust me... coming from someone with no filter from brain to mouth... and no sense of modesty... say anything... I don't hold back and I don't expect others to either... I'm an open book.
OMG but isn't Kagen HOT. Dayum! :lust:
And Cloud--that is beautiful! I love it!
Hmm...
Tattoos eh?
My penis has your name tattooed on it.
Sorry... I just couldn't restrain any longer.
This guy has just finished making love to his girlfriend, when she begs, "Oh baby, it would be so romantic if you tattooed my name on your dick." So the next day, he has her name, Wanda, tattooed on his dick. Unfortunately, their relationship ended a few months later.
Some time later, the guy is in a restroom at his office building. He happens to glance over at the guy next to him, a large black man. He then notices that the man has a "W" tattooed on his dick.
The Wanda guy says, "I realize this may be incredibly awkward, but I noticed that your dick is tattooed just like mine. Does yours say 'Wanda' too?"
The black man laughs and says, "No man!" He then pulls the rest of his dick out of his pants...the tattoo reads "Welcome to Jamaica."
OMG but isn't Kagen HOT. Dayum! :lust:
its what i do.
its what i do.
and so modest, isnt he Bri??? :p
and so modest, isnt he Bri??? :p
i should get an award for how good at i am at being modest.
i'll admitt theres always room for improvement but i look after my appearence and im happy to show off that fact now and again for my own good.
BTW, you can't imagine how bad a vagina can look...:worried:
Well, I've only seen healthy ones -- and they
do look like orchids about the labia minora parts, so Bob Heinlein and I agree there -- taco-shaped orchids.
I have a tat, I love it and plan on getting another. My wife has one, fairly large on her lower back that goes from hip to hip. She just had all the colors touched up. We keep ours in places that we can show them if we want to and hide them if we want to. To each his own.
Wow Cloud, really nice tatoo. The colors look very good. Did you have them touched up or are they recent? I thought tatoos faded over time.
BTW, how was it a 4 hour drive up and only 2 hours back. Is NM traffic that bad?
I have a video tape, around here somewhere, made by some women twenty odd years ago. It shows a couple women in bathing suits, both tattooed, one heavily, walking down a New Jersey beach. The camera trailed a discrete distance behind and captured the reactions of people, sitting on the beach, after the girls passed.
Much negativity. The tattooed women, who also produced this video, claim the difference between tattooed people and plain people, is that tattooed people don't care if plain people don't have tattoos.
I think that's a reflection of society in general. I don't want to have fun, I just want to make sure you don't.:rolleyes:
Wow Cloud, really nice tatoo. The colors look very good. Did you have them touched up or are they recent? I thought tatoos faded over time.
BTW, how was it a 4 hour drive up and only 2 hours back. Is NM traffic that bad?
Thank you! No touch ups. Tattoos will fade in the sun--always use sunscreen!
Sorry--4 hours up; 2 hours under the needle; 4 hours back down. Sometimes I'd go overnight, though.
Me getting a tattoo is akin to taking a black magic marker to the Mona Lisa. :rolleyes:
Yes I can see you as the Mona Lisa! Well a mod hip version. The person posing for the Mona Lisa was probably made to endure a portrait and the grin was for all the fun she would have when done.
hee, hee! me, too, shawnee! Only mine would be more like taking a black magic marker to Munch's "the SCREAM".
Not true! Now get back here! You are missed!
it's against my religion so the whole bodyart thing is out the window for me.
This is my newest, and my biggest. It's on my ankle.
now that is very nice. I like the blue, the design's unusual, as well as the shading work. Congrats!
I have a tatoo. It's visable. I would remove it and replace it with something that couldn't be seen while wearing clothes.
I would never post my own on the web but I like this one.
oh and the anime is nice too.
I don't have any tattoo and I probably won't ever get any. But I love watching Miami Ink and I don't care if people have tattoos. When they're done with good vision and craftmanship, they add a certain je ne sait qua to the body.
Just got my first. Right shoulder blade, very small type.
It means "Peace" in Chinese. I figure peace is a value I can support permanently.
It means "Peace" in Chinese. I figure peace is a value I can support permanently.
Well thought out. Someone close to me is trying to figure out how to cover up her old boyfriend...
OK. I did not know that this thread existed, but I have 2 tattoos. I described the first on my website:
http://www.actwin.com/kalostrader/Tattoo.html
The second is of a phoenix on my right shoulder. Ancient mythical beast which was taken over by Christianity as a symbol of the resurrection.
I have designs for a dragon on one shoulder and a flying horse on the other, but have not implemented those yet.
Anyway, I think that well designed tattoos are great!
I hate to be a spoilsport, Ibram, but have you confirmed that translation with an actual Chinese speaker?
Steve, I am an actual Chinese speaker.
Ibby, I'm getting you to proof-read any Chinese tattoos that I ever get.
[COLOR=White]. . .[/COLOR] What? It could happen!
Good, then you're all set.
The tattooist who did the tattoo told me not to drink alcohol or eat spicy food for a week after getting the tattoo. Is that true? How the hell can spicy food damage my tattoo?
Chemical burns from the hot sauce?
Both alcohol and hot food could dilate the capillaries near the surface ... leading to ... mmm dunno, blurring?
Unless you had your arse tattooed; but that would be tail-posting.
I had planned to get a small souvenir tat in Japan. A small koi, I thought - then learned that each color has its own meaning and it became An Important Decision instead of a fun vacation quest. And I saw no shops in Tokyo anyway, though there must be some there somewhere.
Tattoos are always An Important Decision.
First one: Pooh wearing a Queensryche t-shirt on my right hip. 20 minute decision, 20 dollar tattoo, not thrilled, but don't hate it.
Second one: Tri-ryche tramp stamp. 2 year decision, 100 dollar tattoo, liked it pretty much.
Third one: self-drawn multi-colored pisces symbol, one fish represents me, the other my daddy (R.I.P.) using the tri-ryche to hold them together (lower back.) Four hours and four hundred dollars later, I LOVE IT. Have never regretted it.
Future one: a lion fish for the little Leo Princess OTR. Probably left shoulder - waiting til I'm sure.
Oh....so that's where your name comes from! I had wondered about that.
no, I'm not an Egocentric Nazi, just an 80s music fan =)
Flint doesn't wear metal rings on his fingers... his wedding band is worn on a chain... occasionally... when he remembers to wear it... actually we are both pretty bad about putting our rings on... ring or no ring... we're still married.
Hear hear. I wear my wedding band around my neck too--I have an obnoxious habit of removing it absentmindedly when I drive, type, wash dishes, eat, etc. When it's on a chain, it's much harder to lose. :D
Got my first tat a week ago yesterday. The evolution of the design lasted several months (you can see the
awful first draft and
rough second draft, but I don't recommend staring too long).
The final product,
I'm absolutely thrilled with.
So, you recommend Pop's Tattoo. I have 2 more designs that I have never gotten done. so maybe I will go there. The last tat I got was about 5 years ago, and was done by a guy I met at Gold's Gym who was a chef and did tattoos in his spare time. He did an excellent job, but I have not known where to go since he left town.
Glad you were able to read! (Just migrated servers and the host has been experiencing super-slow pageloads.) I had a great time with Craig and to reiterate, I highly recommend his services. He's a great guy, but straightforward--and since tattoos are a part of you for the rest of your life, I greatly appreciate that.
![I'm absolutely thrilled with]("http://khaotica.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/backtat.jpg"){kind=link}