U.S. official: Chinese test missile obliterates satellite
http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/space/01/18/china.missile/index.html
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- China last week successfully used a missile to destroy an orbiting satellite, U.S. government officials told CNN on Thursday, in a test that could undermine relations with the West and pose a threat to satellites important to the U.S. military.
According to a spokesman for the National Security Council, the ground-based, medium-range ballistic missile knocked an old Chinese weather satellite from its orbit about 537 miles above Earth. The missile carried a "kill vehicle" and destroyed the satellite by ramming it.
The test took place on January 11.
Aviation Week and Space Technology first reported the test: "Details emerging from space sources indicate that the Chinese Feng Yun 1C (FY-1C) polar orbit weather satellite launched in 1999 was attacked by an asat (anti-satellite) system launched from or near the Xichang Space Center."
A U.S. official, who would not agree to be identified, said the event was the first successful test of the missile after three failures.
The official said that U.S. "space tracking sensors" confirmed that the satellite is no longer in orbit and that the collision produced "hundreds of pieces of debris," that also are being tracked.
The United States logged a formal diplomatic protest.
"We are aware of it and we are concerned, and we made it known," said White House spokesman Tony Snow.
Several U.S. allies, including Canada and Australia, have also registered protests, and the Japanese government said it was worrisome.
"Naturally, we are concerned about it from the viewpoint of security as well as peaceful use of space," said Yashuhisa Shiozaki, chief cabinet secretary. He said Japan has asked the Chinese government for an explanation.
The United States has been able to bring down satellites with missiles since the mid-1980s, according to a history of ASAT programs posted on the Union of Concerned Scientists Web site. In its own test, the U.S. military knocked a satellite out of orbit in 1985.
Under a space policy authorized by President Bush in August, the United States asserts a right to "freedom of action in space" and says it will "deter others from either impeding those rights or developing capabilities intended to do so."
The policy includes the right to "deny, if necessary, adversaries the use of space capabilities hostile to U.S. national interests."
Low Earth-orbit satellites have become indispensable for U.S. military communications, GPS navigation for smart bombs and troops, and for real-time surveillance. The Chinese test highlights the satellites' vulnerability.
"If we, for instance, got into a conflict over Taiwan, one of the first things they'd probably do would be to shoot down all of our lower Earth-orbit spy satellites, putting out our eyes," said John Pike of globalsecurity.org, a Web site that compiles information on worldwide security issues.
"The thing that is surprising and disturbing is that [the Chinese] have chosen this moment to demonstrate a military capability that can only be aimed at the United States," he said.
Should I be staying away from high-profile targets and airports right about now, or no?
We are not enemies with China, just rivals. It would be economic suicide for both of us if we went to war with them.
Can we match this capability?
AFAIK anti-missle defense system tests that have been reported on have generally not gone well. But anti-satellite is different (duh).
We have had the capability since the 80's its just that we didn't know they could do it till last week!
OK, I was just wondering if it was sputnik time.
This one line from that article should have worried everyone.
The official said that U.S. "space tracking sensors" confirmed that the satellite is no longer in orbit and that the collision produced "hundreds of pieces of debris," that also are being tracked.
Hundreds of missiles to destroy other spacecraft and kill astronauts. Space does not clean itself like a river used for garbage disposal. At least one shuttle flight nearly ended in disaster when a paint chip struck the windshield. Had the shuttle windshield not survived then seven more dead astronauts?
We should be calling for an end to such tests as if it was as dangerous to all humans as nuclear arms testing. The consequences of not doing so is ... well if we have the same myopic attitude of those opposed to innovation in global warming; it’s not our problem. The kids will worry about when someone finally has a plan.
There is no reason to worry about debris in space for the same reason there is no reason to worry about global warming.
We have had the capability since the 80's its just that we didn't know they could do it till last week!
I don't think anybody familar with space tech doubted for a moment that the Chinese could hit an orbiting sat with a kinetic killer if they wanted to badly enough. Apparently they wanted to: slightly modified one of their MRBMs and played Duck Hunt.
The tech we tested in the 1980s (developed in response to a 1977 USAF Space Systems Command RFP) did essentially the same thing, but could be accomplished with
a missile launched from a modified F-15. This approach has the advantage of not needing to wait for the target sat's orbit to pass conveniently over your launch site as was the case for the Chinese kill...just fly the F-15 to rendezvous with a conveniant intercept launch window, and off you go.
Informed speculation is that they did this to try to force open negotiations on a space weapons treaty, like the one our resident LaRouchian tw is espousing.
Also, space does clean itself...at least LO stuff...gravity will eventually pull in the debris and it will burn up in the upper atmosphere, as we have recently sween when a piece of a Russian rocket burned up over the ocean, or was it Colorado? Someplace like that.
Also, space does clean itself...at least LO stuff...gravity will eventually pull in the debris and it will burn up in the upper atmosphere...
In the case of the ASM-135 test, "eventually" was on the order of 17 years. My understanding is that's why we stopped testing.
You should see the crap amateur radio satellites are to undergo in terms of a "debris mitigation plan" these days.
Story and further info here.
Also, space does clean itself...at least LO stuff...gravity will eventually pull in the debris and it will burn up in the upper atmosphere, ...
which is why so many thousands of low orbit debris must be tracked for years - upwards of a decade. It takes that long for low orbit material to fall. But this example – a warning to the world about what the United States opposes – does it fall on deaf ears? Did everyone realize how dangerous this space debris would be for all mankind? We are dependent on these birds. Already some have been lost – suspected of damage due to debris. In one case, it was believed the debris removed a solar array panel – only destroying a very expensive satellite.
What are targets of military space warfare? Medium orbit and geosynchronous orbit birds. That debris is permanent which is why nations led by smart people want space warfare banned. Anyone who believes in the advancement of mankind could only agree.
Chinese have been demanding a treaty to eliminate space warfare. A moral America would have jumped at this immediately. But that is 100% contrary to Cheney's agenda to militarize space. The negative consequences are equivalent to nuclear weapons testing. But Cheney has 'big dic' attitudes. As usual, it is the United States (only in the past 6 years) that wants to dictate to the world rather than advance it.
Meanwhile, a second consequence of this launch is the fear (and rightly so) that has gripped Japan.
Meanwhile, a second consequence of this launch is the fear (and rightly so) that has gripped Japan.
Most of Asia and even the US are getting pretty edgy right now.
China's leader declined he knew about it though, weird.
a warning to the world about what the United States opposes – does it fall on deaf ears? Did everyone realize how dangerous this space debris would be for all mankind? We are dependent on these birds. Already some have been lost – suspected of damage due to debris. In one case, it was believed the debris removed a solar array panel – only destroying a very expensive satellite.
Obiously an American fault...who would have thunk that?
American and Russian. Who would have thunk otherwise?
China's leader declined he knew about it though, weird.
Those who view China (and others) as monolith would never appreciate what happens in China. Whereas the central party has trouble confronting corruption in the provinces, also the central party does not always understand what the People's Army is doing.
America had the same problem in early days of the cold war. Gen Curtis LeMay would routinely send American planes into the USSR with one intent: "We are already at war with the Soviets. Americans just don't know it yet". Gen LeMay intentionally wanted to turn the cold war hot - and stated it. It took a strong leader (Kennedy) to finally put a leash on LeMay. The story is legendary.
China most certainly has a same kind of 'big dic'. If China's leadership did not know about this test, then we all have something to fear. However if this test was only to get Americans to grab their scumbag president by his balls and address a world problem; then Chinese leadership only failed to appreciate how nervous that would make the Japanese. The latter is clearly the better alternative. We can only hope and watch.
American and Russian. Who would have thunk otherwise?
Chinese have been demanding a treaty to eliminate space warfare. A moral America would have jumped at this immediately. But that is 100% contrary to Cheney's agenda to militarize space. [B]The negative consequences are equivalent to nuclear weapons testing. But Cheney has 'big dic' attitudes. As usual, it is the United States (only in the past 6 years) that wants to dictate to the world rather than advance it.[/B]
YAWN....HAAAAAAA....HAAAAAAA...
That debris is permanent which is why nations led by smart people want space warfare banned. Anyone who believes in the advancement of mankind could only agree.
"All smart and honorble people agree with *me*!"
*snicker*
America had the same problem in early days of the cold war. Gen Curtis LeMay would routinely send American planes into the USSR with one intent: "We are already at war with the Soviets. Americans just don't know it yet". Gen LeMay intentionally wanted to turn the cold war hot - and stated it. It took a strong leader (Kennedy) to finally put a leash on LeMay. The story is legendary.
..."I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids!"
Good, I hope they kill a bunch of satellites and create so much space junk it'll make it unsafe for man and machines for a long time. We'll go back to 1955 and start over. Stop looking at the damn Moon and use that money to fix shit here on Earth.
Then we'll have to work at getting along, protecting the earth, plus we'll have flying cars and chicken chow mien in every pot.
Oh and it'll thwart Dr Evil's plan to blow up the earth and escape to space. :tinfoil:
Orbiting Junk, Once a Nuisance, Is Now a Threat or have we now reached critical mass? From the NY Times of 6 Feb 2007:
The breakup was dangerous because the satellite’s orbit was relatively high, some 530 miles up. That means the debris will remain in space for tens, thousands or even millions of years.
we should launch a big giant hoover space vacuum sattelite. with a hepafilter!
Taken from
http://science.nasa.gov//realtime/
Live 3D Java Tracking Display
Did you know there are over eight thousand artificial objects orbiting Earth? Over 2,500 are satellites, operative and inoperative. The remaining objects are orbital debris: parts such as nosecone shrouds, lens, hatch covers, rocket bodies, payloads that have disintegrated or exploded, and even objects that "escape" from manned spacecraft during operations.
J-Track 3D is one of the most popular Java applets on our web site. It shows 900 satellites, out of thousands, swarming about our earth. You can rotate the display and modify all kinds of settings. The display will also zoom in and out.
..."I can no longer sit back and allow Communist infiltration, Communist indoctrination, communist subversion, and the international Communist conspiracy to sap and impurify all of our precious bodily fluids!"
You bet!
And I am the only one here with guts enough to say that satellite was an asshole and had it coming?
Much more orbiting space junk today. On Tuesday, an Iridium and a Cosmos smashed into each other at thousands of miles an hour, destroying both and creating a cloud of debris. This is in fairly low orbit, around 500 miles. There are hundreds of satellites that orbit at that altitude and the new cloud of debris will endanger all of them now. I wonder if this is the beginning of the end for the Iridium phone system.
What are the damn odds that two satellites would collide? Space is
huge.
The Pentagon and NASA are scrambling to assess the risk to spacecraft and the international space station from hundreds of pieces of debris created in the collision Tuesday of two satellites 491 miles above Siberia. NASA's initial estimate is that the space station faces a "very small" but "elevated" risk of being struck.
The situation is unprecedented. Scraps of spacecraft and other orbital junk have crashed together previously, but this was the first incident involving two intact satellites. One was an Iridium satellite launched in 1997 and used for the company's satellite telephone network; the other, a Russian Cosmos satellite launched in 1993, had been non-operational for a decade, NASA and Pentagon officials said.
.....
About 20 NASA satellites are in orbits that would take them close to the debris cloud, according to the space agency. But there are many hundreds of other satellites -- nearly 1,000 currently in operation, among some 6,600 satellites that have been launched since Sputnik in 1957, according to a 2007 estimate by Jonathan McDowell, an astronomer at the Harvard-Smithsonian Center for Astrophysics.
The military can track space debris as small as a baseball. The U.S. Strategic Command monitors 18,000 distinct pieces of debris, according to Reggie Winchester, spokeswoman for the command. That number will jump by at least 600, the preliminary estimate for the number of pieces from Tuesday's collision.
Even a very small object packs tremendous kinetic energy at orbital velocities, which are on the order of 17,500 mph. Humphries said the space station has "bumpers" designed to shatter an object into tiny pieces before it can penetrate the pressurized interior.
Said Humphries: "It gets down to probabilities. Space being very big, these pieces of debris being very small, the odds are very high that they're not going to collide."
Damn. Why didn't this collision make headlines on Tuesday? Or did I miss it?
Thanks for the link, glatt.
It was buried in the A section of today's paper. I almost didn't see it.
With the fires in Australia and the stimulus bill, I think it just faced competition for news coverage. But it's a big story, and unfolding. They still don't know how bad it is going to be. If you ever looked at the orbits of the Iridium satellites, it's obvious that this will be a big problem.
I didn't know that 500miles was considered low orbit. I am surprised that things don't fall into the atmosphere with more frequency.
I didn't know that 500miles was considered low orbit. I am surprised that things don't fall into the atmosphere with more frequency.
Well that was my comment, and it's subjective. It's far lower than geostationary birds, but higher than the space station.
Map of orbital debris
Is that before or after the collision? Isn't there debris there all the time anyway?
This is an all the time debris pic from a univ.
This is an all the time debris pic from a univ.
Why do universities have more debris?
Just wonderin'
joke
So Merc whats the point exactly? I don't understand. When was that pic taken -
before, during or after?
This is the web site:
http://www.physics.unlv.edu/~jeffery/astro/earth/earth.html
The point was to show a graphic picture of space debris. It is a general pic of all the debris circulating the earths atmosphere, note from the link it is in a two-dimensional area photo.
I didn't know that 500miles was considered low orbit. I am surprised that things don't fall into the atmosphere with more frequency.
ISS really is not in space. Do to compromises to give the Air Force a space plane (Space Shuttle), ISS really sits in earth's upper atmosphere some 200+ miles up. ISS must constantly fire rockets to push itself higher.
LEO (low earth orbit) I believe is below 1000 miles.
About a year ago, the US military tested a satellite destruction weapon. Last week, I believe the Air Force said the debris was mostly gone.
Curious is how devastating that collision was. Military officers who monitor this stuff expected the collision to result in many larger pieces. That's another 800 pieces - any one of which can take out any manned space vehicle - space shuttle, ISS, etc. Just another 800 particles that must be tracked constantly for generations so that not one tiny particle gets within miles of any satellite or manned mission.
Littering laws are not enforced.
Today's paper said the junk might endanger the Hubble.:(
Today's paper had a lot more information.
The cloud of debris from this collision is actually two clouds, each roughly following the previous orbit of each satellite, because it was a glancing impact. Military radar picked up roughly 700 pieces of debris larger than 4 inches, but experts estimate that there are millions of smaller pieces not seen by the radar.
They expect that the debris field will continue to spread, and some of the debris will get as high as 1000 or 1500 miles of altitude.
The most amazing thing I saw in the article was this quote.
Johnson said that four or five satellites a day pass within 300 yards of debris or some other satellite.
From what I've read, now that we've had one very unlikely collison the odds get better for another. They will snowball as debris takes out satellites, creating more debris, taking out more satellites... Basically the human race is trapping itself on earth. We need a clean up effort.
Today's paper said the junk might endanger the Hubble.:(
That would be a sad thing indeed.
They will snowball as debris takes out satellites, creating more debris, taking out more satellites... Basically the human race is trapping itself on earth. We need a clean up effort.
Dwayne Hickman (aka Dobie Gillis) did a TV show where he was captain of a spaceship that collected garbage. The show was far fetched. The concept not so absurd considering how legal it is to fill space with debris.
The collision of two spacecraft means debris has been ejected in numerous other directions. These two spacecraft apparently struck at right angles to each other. Debris is a threat to every other spacecraft, in part, because nobody knows yet where some of it has been redirected.
At least this dead bird fell out of the sky before it reached orbit. It sucks that it died though.
NASA Satellite Crashes Before Reaching Orbit
A NASA satellite designed to monitor carbon dioxide emissions with unprecedented accuracy failed to reach orbit and crashed into the Indian Ocean near Antarctica this morning.
"To say that it's extremely disappointing would be an understatement. This was a really important science mission," said a dismayed Ed Weiler, NASA's associate administrator for science.
That was really a sad day for a bunch of people.
Oh come on, people, WAKE UP! That bird was sabotaged by the fossil fuel industry! :tinfoil:
From ABC News of 12 Mar 2009 entitled "Space Station's Close Call With Junk: More to Come":
The near-hit of space junk Thursday was a warning shot fired across the bow of the international space station, experts said. There's likely more to come in the future. With less than an hour's notice, the three astronauts were told they'd have to seek shelter in a Russian capsule parked at the space station in case a speeding piece of space junk hit Thursday.
If it hit and they were in the main part of the station, they'd have only 10 minutes of safety, ...
The crew moved so fast that they may have left their instruction manual on the other side of a closed hatch. Inside the Soyuz, they waited for 10 minutes, ready to flee to Earth if the worst happened. On the ground, space debris experts fretted.
Chinese were warning of this problem using a low orbit example to accentuate their point. Back then, extremists were in routine denial. America was leading the charge that also included stifling stem cell research and quantum physics. Instead, extremists wanted to militarize space because that is what their partisan politics dictate.
What is good for science is good for extremists? Of course not. What is good for extremists is good for science.
Like a need for pollution controls in the 1960s and elimination of ozone destroying chemicals in the 1980s, another serious problem exists - obviously. Space junk is routine. Even rocket launches leave some rocket stages in space. One astronaut lost her tools in space.
Do we take this problem seriously? Do we ignore political extremists and deal with the problem internationally? Finally America has leaders that would cooperate with the world. The worst thing we might do is military space. Littering in space may finally become illegal. Yes, nations currently do nothing to minimize their rubbish. It is a problem.
NASA operates a super computer whose only function is to predict when space debris threatens the ISS. Therefore they had how much warning? Littering already is a serious problem that is even worse at altitudes that man does not (yet) go.
The space station and space shuttle have been hit by debris in the past. But so far the only holes have been in the station's solar panels and in the shuttle radiator
I wonder if we are witnessing the beginning of the end of the space age. Here. In this thread. At least the geosynchronous satellites are high enough to be fairly safe.
I wonder if we are witnessing the beginning of the end of the space age. Here. In this thread. At least the geosynchronous satellites are high enough to be fairly safe.
Geosynchronous are the worst offenders. The reason for only a 10 minute response was due to debris getting sucked into earth's atmosphere. Geosynchronous debris remains forever AND is much harder to track. Furthermore the future of space is not manned space travel. The future is robots - such as the spacecraft that must somehow survive in a debris strewn geosynchronous orbit.
Like the anti-ballistic missile treaty, a non-proliferation treaty, an international agreement to modify nuclear power plants all over the world to make its uranium less bomb grade, the Oslo Accords, stem cell research, innovations in energy consumption, quantum physics, global warming, etc; we had an administration that advocated more litter in space because the political agenda dictated militarization of space. We needed bigger dics. Litter is not a threat (or deficits don't matter - same mindset).
An extremist legacy directly traceable to politics and with open contempt for science lives on. As if Obama does not have enough American advocated disasters to deal with.
Ya know, and I know I will be ridiculed for this, but, we don't know for sure that we are the masters of the universe. What IF there really ARE other intelligent forms of life out there, and now, we are polluting their space as well as our own? I mean, I think it is completely arrogant to think that, in the vast amount of space and time, we are IT. But we never think about the consequences of our actions, do we? (sorry, didn't mean to go off like that, but I can't stand the egocentic nature of most human beings)
Then we're building a trash fence to keep them from coming here and taking our jobs... and women. :haha:
hmmmm, I might just LIKE a space alien. I mean, it sounds soooo exotic! :D
So you haven't seen Mars Attacks.
I was thinking more Worf, or... something. :D
Ya know, and I know I will be ridiculed for this, but, we don't know for sure that we are the masters of the universe. What IF there really ARE other intelligent forms of life out there, and now, we are polluting their space as well as our own?
Nonsense. Only humans invented Darth Vader and Death Stars that create litter from whole planets. Only we have mastered the art.
Ya know, and I know I will be ridiculed for this, but, we don't know for sure that we are the masters of the universe. What IF there really ARE other intelligent forms of life out there, and now, we are polluting their space as well as our own?
They'd have to live pretty damn close for us to be polluting their space. As in, in Earth orbit.
Space is big. Really big. Even if we vaporized the Solar System, and shot it out as pollution, that's just peanuts to space.
Ya know, and I know I will be ridiculed for this, but, we don't know for sure that we are the masters of the universe. What IF there really ARE other intelligent forms of life out there, and now, we are polluting their space as well as our own? I mean, I think it is completely arrogant to think that, in the vast amount of space and time, we are IT. But we never think about the consequences of our actions, do we? (sorry, didn't mean to go off like that, but I can't stand the egocentic nature of most human beings)
We're already doing this at home to intelligent creatures:
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/03/animal-minds/virginia-morell-text. Not anthropomorphism, some animals exhibit true intelligence, reasoning, and self-awareness typically thought of as purely human traits.
Space shuttle and space station yesterday changed orbit to avoid more space junk. This time, it may have been some Chinese junk from a 1999 launch.
They'd have to live pretty damn close for us to be polluting their space. As in, in Earth orbit.
Space is big. Really big. Even if we vaporized the Solar System, and shot it out as pollution, that's just peanuts to space.
yes, I know it's really vast, but everything is connected, ya know. And frankly, we ain't all that bright. If we were, climate change wouldn't be such an issue, and neither would pollution and population and a host of other issues.
We're already doing this at home to intelligent creatures: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2008/03/animal-minds/virginia-morell-text. Not anthropomorphism, some animals exhibit true intelligence, reasoning, and self-awareness typically thought of as purely human traits.
Yes, they do, which is why I support animal rights.
So you haven't seen Mars Attacks.
I love that movie.
