Where Is Sex?
No, this isnt about how I'm not getting any...
Where does one's gender reside? Is it mental? Is it about what you're packing in your denims, or whats in your genes? If someone has XY but is testosterone-resistant, and therefore physically female, which are they? What if they identify as male, what then? If they identify female? What if they just don't care or dont know, and just go with what theyve got to work with? What about transgender people? Pre-op? Post-op? What about really, really butch lesbians, or really really effeminate gays? What about closet transgenders?
What do these people mark on forms? What scholarships should they get? What bathrooms do they use?
Why do we even diffrentiate so much based on gender, when it's got just as much gray area as any other distinction?
Ibram, you should read the novel "Middlesex." It's a great book, and I think you would like it.
Where does one's gender reside?
You say that like there's only one definition of gender. Genetic, percived, neurological, hormonal...make a list. What about genetically mosaic people?
What about ${putYourOwnEdgeCaseHere}.
The bathroom thing I can tell you about, though...:-)
But your question was "Where is *sex*?". Apparently it's near Paradise.
Unfortunately, Blue Ball is in the vicinity.
[COLOR="Gray"]in my best Beavis and Butthead voice:[/COLOR]
near Lampeter...hehehehehe...peter...hehehehehe
A persons gender is either male or female as determined by their chromosome structure. There are disorders which can cause one or more of the pathways to physical appearence to not reflect that gender (usually men who end up looking like women) such as dysgenic pseudo-hermaphroditism. In the end though, you must have either XX or XY chromosomes, no wiggle room there. As for people who identify as the opposite gender, that's a psychological issue with sociological factors than biological one.
Within society and the issues you mentioned Ibram, those decisions should fall back on genetics. If someone thinks they're a woman but is a man, then they should mark 'male' on forms and such. The only exception to this rule I would think of would be the bathroom issue, WAY easier to just use whichever one people identify you as at a glance than to try to explain things to everyone and deal with the trouble everyday.
(Plus if we indoctrinated people in the other opinion I know plenty of guys who would just take that as open season on women's restrooms:neutral:)
In the end though, you must have either XX or XY chromosomes, no wiggle room there.
Um, except for the disorders resulting in
XYY,
a single X,
XXY, or
XXX...
Um, except for the disorders resulting in XYY, a single X, XXY, or XXX...
Are XXX girls more likely to star in certain types of films?
I think it is in your brain.
What does testosterone resistant mean? We all have testosteone and progesterone and estrogen.
It's happened before (not that its particularly common) that a person gets XY chromasomes but don't develop into a male as a fetus, due to testosterone problems.
Testosterone is a myth as far as sex is concerned... I have almost none and I want sex all the time.
In the end though, you must have either XX or XY chromosomes, no wiggle room there.
Not true. There are several other combinations, and some folks have different genotypes in different cells.
You're all wet about transsexuality not having a biological basis, too.
There are disorders which can cause one or more of the pathways to physical appearence to not reflect that gender (usually men who end up looking like women)
Got any figures for that?
Ug, ok, I forgot about aneuploidy (and it was on our exam today:smack:) since most of those conditions with the sex chromosomes are not what generally inspires this question. However our genes nonetheless still control our sex, that's only proven even more by examples of chormosomal disorders.
Do you mean numbers or names and discriptions of the conditions?
I mean figures to show that the condition mainly affects men.
However our genes nonetheless still control our sex,
That's question-begging.
The prenatal hormonal environment is a profound influence too, and can override genetic influence at various stages of fetal development.
...I want sex all the time.
That's only because you're horny.
Hmmm, I'll look into some stats but give me a little for numbers. The reason I mentioned men specifically is that males are more vulnerable due to the method of sex differentiation. I'll explain, but for now I'll exclude the disorders. There are four major steps in normal human sex differentiation:
1: Fertilization and determination of genetic sex
2: Formation of organs common between both sexes
3: Gonadal differentiation
4: Differentiation of the internal ducts and external genitalia
The first step is the obvious one, you either get an X or a Y chromasome from your father which determines your genetic sex, either XX female or XY male. In the second, the embryo diffentiates into the cell which will become most of your organs, lungs, heart, kidneys, you get the idea. However the first stage of gonad development is also common, all embryos develop the same gonadal ridges, internal ducts, and external genitalia. Now the gonadal ridges are plainly visible at 5 weeks, and is a critical stage, if you have defects in DAX-1, SOX-9 or a number of different genes, you will not develop either testes or ovaries. By the 7th week, both male and female fetuses have both the Mullerian and Wolffian ducts, while appearing female due to the presence of urethral folds and the urogenital opening.
Now, part of what Maggie was referring to occurs in the third stage, the differentiation of the gonadal ridge into either testes or ovaries. Remember how up until this point the fetus was anatomically female? At this point if the Y chromosome is present then the SRY factor will cause it to develop into testes. The female anatomy is caused by the lack of a differentiating factor, meaning that if something goes wrong at this stage the fetus automatically developes female genitalia while still being chromasomally male.
The last step is similar. If testes are present then the sertoli cells will begin to produce MIS (mullerian inhibiting substance) which will halt the growth of the mullerian ducts present since the 2nd phase. In addition, androgens are now being released by the leydig cells which will cause further development of the wolffian ducts (becoming the epididymis, vas deferens, etc). The female counterparts are once again determined by the absence of these differentiating factors.
Now you're probably familiar with hermaphroditism, and know that it comes in three varieties, true, male, and female. We didn't cover what causes true hermaphroditism, but the female variation is usually caused by congenital adrenal hyperplasia (adrenal glands which overproduce testosterone), and the male variation is typically androgen insensitivity syndrome which is exactly what it sounds like.
That's all we covered and I can get from my textbooks, I might look up some case studies on EBSCO or the medical database, but don't hold your breath right away. I just started Christmas break, and researching this stuff in more detail than I have to know is not high on my priority list at the moment.
Can anyone direct me to a good eggnog recipe?:yum:
So, cutting past all the bullshit and boring science talk, what you're saying, 9th, is that sex is entirely... based on... chromosomes? or physical anatomy?
Are you looking for the cocktail party answer to the meaning of life? :haha:
A persons gender is either male or female as determined by their chromosome structure.
Anthropologically speaking, "gender" is defined by one's chosen manner of presenting him or herself to the world; it is more cultural than biological. "Sex" is the biologically determined aspect of maleness or femaleness. Both categories are not always either/or, either. Not everyone uses the word "gender" this way, but I think it helps to make the distinction from mere "sex" when considering how complex cultures can be in defining what sorts of behaviours, clothes, choice of language, are either "male" or "female." :neutral:
Good point, people don't see your chromosomes, only what you present to them.:thumbsup:
I'm so confused. I identify completely as gay, but I have a girlfriend. I've got a cock. Does that mean I identify as a woman? I don't think of myself as a guy. But I don't think of myself as a girl. I resign to being treated like and calling myself a guy. But I resent it. I hate everything that being masculine, that being a guy, stands for.
I'm so tired. I have no idea what I'm talking about.
Damnit, I hate being the typical whiny teenager.
Ibram, if I may make an assessment based on what I've seen of you here... keeping in mind this is just my interpretation, and in no way a definition of how you feel... you are not gay. You seem philosophically gay, meaning you have logically concluded that in being truly tolerant, you have to accept the possibility of a male relationship for yourself as being equal to the possibility of a female relationship. You also have a healthy amount of bad experiences with what is typically considered masculine, so you deliberately shy away from that label as well.
But, in the end, I think you are straight. Your hormones are at a particularly trying point right now, and I think you may ultimately realize that the recognition of another man as being attractive is more an intellectual feeling, and does not come to the same level of intensity you will have for your girlfriend or other women who are emotionally attractive to you. You are one of those guys that women will dream about: the sensitive, caring, listening, nonprejudicial type. But there's nothing wrong with being more attracted to one thing than another, even if it seems arbitrary. I like guys with glasses, for example. It's not fair, and I certainly wouldn't write off a potential guy just because he didn't wear glasses, but in the end, I'm attracted to what I'm attracted to, and there's nothing wrong with that. But like I said, I could be completely wrong, no one can know for sure but you. But I've known a lot of gay men, and a lot of "sensitive" straight men, and you definitely seem to me to be the latter.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, even though I'm NOT gay, I've got a girlfriend, I'm definitely bi. I like the menfolk. A lot. Now, I wouldnt ever do anything with one, but that is because I have a girlfriend who I am completely, utterly devoted to and will love forever. I am not straight, that's for certain.
The semi-point of the last post, if there was one at all, is that I feel gay, I identify as gay, and I dont feel like a guy, so I'm really confused, and not entirely satisfied just labeling myself as a bisexual dude. I think a more accurate description would be... a different definition of bisexual, bisexual as... identifying as, being part of, liking, and just plain associating as both sexes. Genderblind, thats it. I see sex as a useless distinction. The only problem is that people try to fit their stereotypes, which sucks. But to me, gender isnt of any real... well, not importance, but... I dont know, some word that's similar to importance... but its... its not a distinction i need. However, as a teen, I feel a need to label everything, including myself.
I resign to being treated like and calling myself a guy. But I resent it. I hate everything that being masculine, that being a guy, stands for.
You may be a little close to the military to see this but on the outside people are defining themselves. For me, being a guy means being a good dad and a good husband and living my life my way, but thats my definition. You get to define being what a guy is. Its not all about macho bullshit.
snip~I hate everything that being masculine, that being a guy, stands for.~snip
If you hate these "things", you must know what they are, so what does being a guy stand for?
And where did you get this information? Media portrayal? Observations? Other peoples opinions?
I hesitate to bring up your age, because I'm sure you get that quite enough. But, that said, it's important in this discussion.
Up to now, to get by, all you had to do was what you were told (more or less:rolleyes:) by your folks, teachers, etc. Now you've reached an age where you have to interact with the world, outside your family/friends/school, you want to know where you fit in. In order to find where you fit in, you want to be able to define yourself and that's hard.
I think the honest truth is you don't fit in....except with all the other teens that are wondering the same thing you are. Don't be fooled by your peers that think they've got it all together, they just think they do...some are in for big surprises.
You especially, being a military brat, have missed a continuity in your life that promotes some familiarity bred confidence. Maybe more so, because of your Dad's assignments aren't strictly military bases, but a lot of far flung civilian settings, so you don't have a lot of other military brats to commiserate with.
Maybe it would be better not to try to define yourself just yet. Not before you have to, anyway. Just take it as it comes..... do and act according to what you're comfortable with.... rather than what you think you must do to reaffirm some preconceived notion of who you are.
I know you are not stupid from your posts. But I am doing a lot of speculating and making judgments, about you and your life, that I have no evidence to back up.
So if I'm way off base, sorry, no offense intended, just forget it. :blush:
edit- While I was typing all that, griff slid in and nailed it with a lot less verbage. :o
cutting past all the bullshit and boring science talk
:rant: <insert>rant about boring science talk comment</insert>
Ok then. I was really just throwing some information out there to clarify my comment about males being more susceptible to disorders which influence their sex phenotype, wasn't really applying it to the overarching question just yet.
Let me ask this. Do you guys think we need to separate our understanding of sex and gender into two catagories? Sort of a personal and public thing to over-simplify it. It struck me that most things that we find really personal or self-defining rarely exist in the exact same form in both our private and public identities. We're making the definition of 'sex' so broad that there's no way to pin it down to something everyone can see and understand from the same angle. There's a huge biological component, no denying that, but we also want to throw in the psychological, which is what Ibram mostly refers to. Are these the same thing? Are they equally as important? Who is each important to? These aren't easy questions that we've left lodged within the bigger one, so I think we've incorrectly defined our parameters here. Perhaps a detailed look at our own definitions would help clarify a few things.
You get to define being what a guy is.
You have more to say about it than you used to in decades past. But you certainly don't control it all...and if you're gender dysphoric you don't control enough of it. Not to mention that "being a guy" is more than social roles and expectations.
I giess I can speak from expereince on this...having lived in decades past and having been biologically a guy once, and biologically a woman now. The hormone balance makes a *huge* difference...and back before I transitioned I got to listen to the "you get to define your own gender role now" speech given to me more than once. Wasn't true then and I doubt it's much truer now.
Being bi is all well and good. I'm bi myself. But there's a big difference between issues dealing with "who you go to bed with" and issues dealing with "who you go to bed as".
... I resign to being treated like and calling myself a guy. But I resent it. I hate everything that being masculine, that being a guy, stands for.
....
I completely identify with that and I am 51 yo. I hate the male-vs-male competitions.
Hang in there. You can recreate what it means to be a guy. Last year, for Halloween I went into work dressed up as one of my girlfriends there. She loved it and to this day talks about it and shows pix of me. I go on girls-nights-out to shows and concerts. I wear black capri pants, silver anklets, and ...
Still, when I am with a group of my girlfriends they still treat me like the guy of the group. So, you can't completely escape it. But, it's still lots of fun for all of us.
On one date a couple of months ago, this gal took me out to a show with a limo to the city and the works. She was completely in control and it was a gender swapping evening. At the end I told her I didn't know whether she wanted me to be her boyfriend or girlfriend. And she said, "yeah, and I kept switching that on you all evening." :D
It's great when you finally hook up with people that get you. Hang in there, Ibram.
i tailposted (a word I, thats me, invented!). to say that the Innuit Indians recognise 11 genders. i cant list them.
Well then my all means, please do!
I've just had an epiphany while meditating on Hedwig and the Angry Inch and listening to Shankar a little while ago...
I don't care.
I'll leave other people to worry about my gender. I don't need to. I know what I like, I know what I don't, and I don't need to know what I am. I will act as I feel, I will do what is right, I won't conform to any gender stereotypes for the sake of doing so. Just as I have been all along. I don't need to know or care what I identify as.
i tailposted (a word I, thats me, invented!). to say that the Innuit Indians recognise 11 genders. i cant list them.
I believe it was, we, Mr.:neutral:
Hmmmm... I wonder how many I got to do before I got married?
ohhhh shit, i just realized he said CAN'T list, not can.
Oops. Whatever.
I don't care.
I'll leave other people to worry about my gender. I don't need to. I know what I like, I know what I don't, and I don't need to know what I am. I will act as I feel, I will do what is right, I won't conform to any gender stereotypes for the sake of doing so. Just as I have been all along. I don't need to know or care what I identify as.
This is the right attitude of course. It is far better than saying you hate everything male or being a man. Like other posters have said, that can only apply to a fixed definition of male, maleness etc. The closest men in my life are very different from one another - my father for example displays some typically feminine characteristics, but in other ways is "all man".
Just make sure you don't cut yourself off from anything you might enjoy by paying attention to other people's sterotypes. I know a guy who loves cooking, shopping, arthouse cinema, poetry, respects women and is a great shoulder to cry on. He also plays rugby, is sick in pub gardens when he gets drunk and rubs his bare arse against restaurant windows. He can't talk to all his friends about everything he enjoys, but at least he gets what he wants out of life.
And finally - bit of a long sig? Maybe it's just me, but it hurts my brain a bit when the sig is routinely longer than the post.
the sig's only temporary, I just had to through that out there.
And its still true that I hate masculinity, I hate machismo, I hate almost everything stereotypically male. So?
mas·cu·line / Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mas-kyuh-lin] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective 1. pertaining to or characteristic of a man or men: masculine attire.
2. having qualities traditionally ascribed to men, as strength and boldness.
So? I think you're doing a disservice to half the population of the world. There are many positive traits displayed by men (quick example above)- and if you didn't think so surely you'd be posting on a mainly female forum?
Obviously the way you feel about your/ their gender is totally your business, but I'd say the same to a woman posting that she hated everything about women and being female... seems a pity to have such disdain for so many people.
This is really bothering me... I was not told before I got older and now I'll never get to do all eleven. I feel very cheated.
I dont hate all men. I hate the posing, the preening, the strength, the oafishness, the rudeness, the unintelligence, the brute force and brawn that makes up machismo.
Like, take the weight room, for instance. We had to do weight room as a unit in Gym. The guys, instead of chatting or whatever, would spend ALL their time lifting absurd amounts, grunting and yelling and slapping eachothers chests and bellowing and just generally doing their best 'primate house' impressions.
THAT is what I hate about machismo.
I was against all that stuff when I was a lad, partly because I was raised by my mom and partly because I was a pencil-neck geek who would not fight anyone under any circumstances and came to hate physical violence or threat of it as force.
Now I understand it a little bit more and see the value of it. By thinking about it in terms of fighting, I couldn't stand it. But there is value in simple toughness, for one's self and for one's society.
Because life is tough and there is a lot of tough stuff to deal with. Somebody has to do the tough stuff.
Somebody has to buck up and run into the burning building. Somebody is going to have get out and push this car. Somebody is going to have to wrangle those hay bales into place in the barn. Somebody is going to have to walk miles back in the snow and try to find help. Somebody is going to have to handle those assholes trying to take back Afghanistan. Somebody is going to have to fix those truck scales. And whether or not we admit it, it's not only gender roles that have the men doing those things, 9 times out of 10.
I understand that it does serve a societal purpose... So does death. That doesn't mean I like it.
I understand that it does serve a societal purpose... So does death. That doesn't mean I like it.
The important thing is that you like yourself and your own definition. I must admit that I'm really uncomfortable with this idea of hating masculinity. You do understand that this is really irrational from an evolutionary perspective? It is equivalent to hating feminity for being too nurturing. Let the meatheads define themselves as well, they may grow up someday.
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=2][COLOR=#666655] Where is the love
(Where is the love)
Where is the love
(Where is the love)
Where is the love
(Where is the love)
Where is the love
Where is the love
You said you'd give to me
Soon as you were free
Will it ever be
Where is the love
You told me that you didn't love him
And you were gonna say goodbye
But if you really didn't mean it
Why did you have to lie
Where is the love
You said was mine all mine
Till the end of time
Was it just a lie
Where is the love
If you had had a sudden change of heart
I wish that you would tell me so
Don't leave me hangin on the promises
You've got to let me know
[Instrumental Interlude]
Oh, how I wish I never met you
I guess it must have been my fate
To fall in love with someone else's love
All I can do is wait
(That's all I can do)
Yeah, hey, yeah
Where is the love[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
I giess I can speak from expereince on this...having lived in decades past and having been biologically a guy once, and biologically a woman now.
I may have missed a class ... but you are still biologically male, even if you are cosmetically and ideologically a female. You do not have the equipment to manufacture natural female hormones. If you were provided a screening test, you'd test as male, no matter what artificial hormones are in your system.
I didn't read all the posts so I will get back on topic if it as strayed and I'm sorry if someone already mentioned what I am going to say.
Sex is biological and gender is socialized.
You can not change the fact that a male has a penis and a female has a vagina but you can change gender roles. Some societies have the women as the dominant figure in society while others have them being completely submissive.
I may have missed a class ... but you are still biologically male, even if you are cosmetically and ideologically a female. You do not have the equipment to manufacture natural female hormones.
So, if you had an oophorectomy you would no longer be biologically female?
I'm in the same situation as a born woman post hysterectomy/oophoectomy. I suppose you could call my HRT 'mones "artificial", but they're definatey not synthetic; and it's the same Premarin millions of other women are taking. It's OK for me to take it without progesterone because cervical cancer isn't a factor.
A genotype "screening test" might show me as being XY. Or might not; It's never been done and I don't know. There's any number of other possibilities.
You can not change the fact that a male has a penis and a female has a vagina...
Fair minds might differ on that one. I no longer have a penis and I now have a vagina. Of course, I consider myself female, so there you go.
Fair minds might differ on that one. I no longer have a penis and I now have a vagina. Of course, I consider myself female, so there you go.
Sorry, I may have used a bad example.
Here is a better one, on your 23rd chromosome it will be Y and not X.
So, if you had an oophorectomy you would no longer be biologically female?
Perhaps not the best analogy, but if you put a Toyota engine into a Ford, does that make it a Japanese car?
These days, probably. Thirty years ago, not so much. I like the analogy though.
Perhaps not the best analogy, but if you put a Toyota engine into a Ford, does that make it a Japanese car?
You're evading my direct question by posing a bad analogy? :-)
My thoughts regarding the etiology of transsexuality are that even starting with a purely male genotype, exposure to
environmental estrogens during fetal develoment can cause development of an essentially female brain. When my mom was carrying me the family lived in the shadow of the oil refineries in South Philly. Furthermore, while Mom denies it to my face, a doctor who treated her in those days told me she'd been getting hormone treatments of some kind, although he was vague about the details.
Zhou, Gooren and Swaab have done
several studies on brain sex differences in transsexuals. These are still working with sparse data since the techniques require postmortem exminations of the brain, and identifying transsexual cohorts is a tricky business.
But to follow your flawed analogy, if you started building a car from scratch from Ford blueprints but switched over to Toyota plans while building the engine, would the car run more like a Japanese car? Even if it was
"Body by Fisher"? :-)
How about an operating system / application analogy? As you were...
How about an operating system / application analogy? As you were...
Computing operating systems and applications are designed with a single, (mostly) clean separation at the API level, so that the application and the OS can evolve independantly because of tight encapsulation.
Biological systems and subsystems don't break down that way. Having evolved together, they're more holistically interdependant.
I'm not avoiding the issue at all, Maggie. Perhaps I should have asked "If I remove the muffler from a Ford, does that make it a Toyota?"
You consider yourself a woman. I react and respond to you in that way as well, however, nothing in terms of social convention, artificial hormones, or surgery changes the fact that if you and I are both tested chromosonally to determine sex, mine comes back XX, yours XY, unless you have a congential abnormality of which I am not aware.
You consider yourself a woman. I react and respond to you in that way as well, however, nothing in terms of social convention, artificial hormones, or surgery changes the fact that if you and I are both tested chromosonally to determine sex, mine comes back XX, yours XY, unless you have a congential abnormality of which I am not aware.
Until an actual genotyping is done, genetic sex is pretty much Schrodinger's Cat. The other aspects of gender predominate. You don't actually *know* how my genotype would come back if tested any more than I do. And even genetic sex isn't binary.
You claimed that lacking "the equipment to manufacture natural female hormones" made me male...when in fact I lack the equipment to manufacture *any* natual sex hormones (ignoring the adrenal side function of manufacturing small amounts of testosterone common to both males and females), just like you would be if you were to have an oophorectomy. Assuming you actually haven't.
So now you're falling back on a genetic biological determinism...I think that's a deeply flawed view of gender.
Gender, but not sex.
True enough, were we speaking strictly ...but the terms have been used loosely and interchangably throughout this thread. The first post seemed to me to make clear that Ibram was interested in discussing the broader aspects of gender beyond just XY, XX, and the myriad variations thereof.
Gender is different in each culture because gender is a social process.
The first post seemed to me to make clear that Ibram was interested in discussing the broader aspects of gender beyond just XY, XX, and the myriad variations thereof.
Nah, he just wants us to worship him. :lol:
Damn straight!
(or not...)
Where is Sex? I don't know, but if you find him ask him where we can locate his friend, Foreplay.
Mmm, I really wanna meet him too, he's my favorite.
Ibram
I thought of you watching the Big Fat Quiz of the Year over the Christmas period. I've included some links so you can at least see what I mean:
Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
If you're interested, the rest is on You Tube.
The participants are at the top of their tree in Britain. Check out Noel Fielding & Russell Brand. They are men. They are straight. They certainly aren't macho but have had the strength and drive to make it in a very tough field (stand up comedy and then TV comedy)
Check out David Walliams who recently swam the Channel (in the top 50 fastest times as well!) He has a gay comedy partner (Matt Lucas) but is straight. Both he and Russell are linked with a string of incredibly attractive famous women but also are not insulted when it is suggested men are attracted to them/ that they are attracted to other men.
I don't expect you to watch all the links as it's very parochial, but I hope you get what I'm trying to say. Some men - even successful and famous men - aren't like your weight-lifting back-slapping buddies. And even Goths can be funny and admired.
Get your family to move over here - just the American accent would make you exotic enough that everything else would be accepted. Okay I know you can't, but remember that there is somewhere in the world that it would happen.
Happy New Year!