Dutch Ban Burkas
AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - The Dutch government agreed on Friday a total ban on the wearing of burqas and other Muslim face veils in public, justifying the move on security grounds.
Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk will now draw up legislation which will result in the Netherlands, once one of Europe's most easy-going nations, imposing some of the continent's toughest laws against concealing the face.
"The cabinet finds it undesirable that garments covering the face -- including the burqa -- should be worn in public in view of public order, (and) the security and protection of fellow citizens," the Dutch Justice Ministry said in a statement.
Last December Dutch lawmakers voted in favor of a proposal by far-right politician Geert Wilders to outlaw face-coverings and asked Verdonk to examine the feasibility of such a ban.
Because veils were worn for religious reasons, she had feared new legislation could come into conflict with religious freedom laws. But she said on Friday this was not the case.
Existing legislation already limits the wearing of burqas and other total coverings on public transport or in schools.
France has banned the Muslim headscarf and other religious garb from state schools while discussion in Britain centers on limiting the full facial veil, or niqab.
Italy has a decades-old law against covering the face in public as an anti-terrorism measure. Some politicians have called for this rule to be enforced against veiled Muslim women.
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The article goes on to say it really won't affect many Muslim women, maybe only 50 in the whole country, actually wear the whole kit. Therefore it would appear to me, they are making a statement that the Dutch won't allow their country to be taken over by immigrants, changing the mores and customs.
Am I getting the wrong message? If so, what do you think the message is? :confused:
No, the Dutch have taken that stance. They are probably learning by watching what is happening in Sweden (which is a thread I've been meaning to post). I believe it is the Dutch who make all immigrants purches a $75 video they are tested on that depicts men kissing and all other sorts of stuff that they may encounter in the Netherlands. Of course if your religion forbids such things how are you going to watch the tape? I see nothing wrong with it as it keeps out people who would not intergrate into their society. This seems to be another step in making immigrants integrate and keeping extremists out.
If so, what do you think the message is?
The message is: national elections next week...
From the 16 Mio inhabitants 3 Mio has no Dutch background, of which 1 Mio has a Western background from EU or US), 2 Mio non Western background, of which almost half originate from the former colonies.
Immigrants taking over?
PS: I´ve never seen any burka until now. Such a fuz over 50 women which most likely only stay at home anywayz.
*Sighs* great. Here we go. We in the West are becoming so intolerant of Moslem culture.
The whole veil/burka debate bemuses me. I understand that it seems a strange and unnatural thing to us, but there are cultures who view our insistence on covering our breasts as equally strange.
For the women raised in this particularly strict form of Islamic culture, covering up is a matter of personal modesty. If I decided tomorrow that I wanted to walk down my high street with my breasts exposed, I would almost certainly be arrested, would be considered to be inviting male attention/sexual assault and would more than likely feel naked to the world. Why? there is nothing inherently sexual about breasts; plenty of societies do not share our view on this. Yet, because we have evolved a culture where breasts are considered to be sexual in nature, women are expected (and indeed governed by law) to cover up. If as a teenager, I had decided to wear jeans and nothing else, I have, no doubt my father would have hit the roof, likewise my older brother.....and not just because of the risk of arrest.
For the women in cultures that have evolved to percieve the showing of body and face as immodest, to walk down the high street without covering up must make them feel semi-naked. Just as I would feel uncomfortable having mens' eyes roving over my breasts then so must they feel uncomfortable having those same eyes 'rove' over their face.
We have become so intolerant of this culture, that we no longer see the parrallels of our own. We see the burka and the veil in terms of male oppression and yet we live in a world where many people, male and female, are uncomfortable seeing a woman breast feed.
Muslims are intolerant of other religions and cultures and for some reason you think they should get more favorable treatment than they would give, for example, a Westerner in a Muslim country? Oh, wait. My bad. European (white) culture bad, any brown culture good. I forgot my New World Order cheat sheet.
Oh, wait. My bad. European (white) culture bad, any brown culture good.
That's not the least bit racist.
Muslims are intolerant of other religions and cultures and for some reason you think they should get more favorable treatment than they would give, for example, a Westerner in a Muslim country?
This isn't about westerners in Muslim countries. This about muslims in a western country. We supposedly pride ourselves on tolerance. Are you suggesting that because some muslim (some, not all)countries are intolerant, we should extend that courtesy to any muslim in our country? Why don't we just go the whole hog and make them all wear a red crescent?
Dana, you're not getting it. I belive in a truly level playing field. I am not ashamed of my culture and heritage, and don't think that any other person should be. There are certain things that I hold dear, including the freedom to worship (or not) as one chooses. Once a religion decides that it has a license to convert forcibly or kill from it's version of God, it's bad.
"Why is there this malice? Because there are none who love the Jews on the face of the earth: not man, not rock, and not tree, everything hates them. They destroy everything, they destroy the trees and destroy the houses. Everything wants vengeance on the Jews, on these pigs on the face of the earth, and the day of our victory, Allah willing, will come."
Sheikh Ibrahim Mudayris
"All weapons must be aimed at the Jews, Allah's enemies, the cursed nation in the Koran, whom Allah describes as monkeys and pigs [The] Koran says clearly that the worst enemies of the Moslem Nation are the Jews, may Allah fight them..."
Dr. Muhammad Ibrahim Maadi
"Allah said against the Jews and the Idolaters, 'Your Lord has declared that he will surely send against them [Jews] until Resurrection, those [Arabs and Muslims] who will afflict them with terrible torment'"
Dr. Mahmoud Mustafa Najem
"The Jews are the Jews. Whether Labor or Likud the Jews are Jews. They do not have any moderates or any advocates of peace. They are all liars. They must be butchered and must be killed... The Jews are like a spring as long as you step on it with your foot it doesn't move. But if you lift your foot from the spring, it hurts you and punishes you."
Dr. Ahmad Abu Halabiyah, Sharia (Islamic Law) Rulings Council, Rector of Advanced Studies, Islamic University
Help me out here. What part of the above am I misreading or misinterpreting?
"It is forbidden to have mercy in your hearts for the Jews in any place and in any land. Make war on them any place that you find yourself. Any place that you meet them, kill them."
Those are some interpretations of Islam. They may even be the predominant interpretations held by leading moslem clerics. That does not mean they are shared by all moslems. In America, you will find many intolerant Christian preachers who condemn people for being homosexual and you will still find some who are anti-semitic. Does that mean we should judge all Christians this way?
Even if all moslems shared that viewpoint, in what way is that relevant to us being intolerant of them? I am intolerant of anti-semitism. I disagree with and detest the anti-semitic views of those clerics, just as I am intolerant of and detest the homophobic, misogynistic and occassionally anti-semitic views of certain Christian leaders. In what way does that make it right for me to be intolerant of other aspects of their culture or views? In what way does it balance the books that their women not be allowed to dress in the way that makes them feel comfortable?
They can absolutely expect to recieve the same level of tolerence they extend in their own contries. If you insult my friend in your house you sure as hell arn't invited into mine.
So the Dutch are trying to keep extremists out and make sure immigrants (who do not have to be accepted into the country) integrate into society. What exactly is wrong with that?
The Dutch have good reason to worry.
Van Gogh was an agent provocateur of the highest order, insulting everything and everybody. His murder have been used by the advocates of fear to inflate the real situation. I don´t see why we have to worry as the change of being killed by a terrorist is less than being hit by lightening. The reign of fear executed by the Bushites is deeply rooted inside many people.
All this fuz for 50 people wearing burkas completely escapes my me.
You're blaming us for the trouble with immigrants going on in Germany, France, England, Spain, etc?
You're right about the odds of a terrorist coming to get you, but the problem of immigrants not assimilating is ongoing. It's festering in the slums and ghettos every day and one day it will erupt like it has in France.
The Islamic dress issue is just a symbol of the assimilation problem and I think a statement by the government to the immigrants.... If you want to live here you must adapt to our culture, you will not force us to adapt to yours.
I may be wrong, but that's the message I get. :confused:
It's not a statement to immigrants.....it's a statement to moslems.
I would expect that it generalizes. They don't want Greeks wearing the shoes with the pom-poms on them either.
Welcome to Holland, we have 1000 years of culture, wooden shoes, tulips, art, music, and all that. It's part of of our identity.
I wouldn't go to work for McDonalds and expect to wear a hat left over from my prior experience at Burger King. When in Rome, etc. etc.
I would expect that it generalizes. They don't want Greeks wearing the shoes with the pom-poms on them either.
I'd be interested to knjow, but I suspect it doesn't generalise
It's probably a statement to the muslims because they're the ones causing the majority of the problems. They want to keep out trouble makers, and guess what demographic just earned itself a place in that catagory
It's not a statement to immigrants.....it's a statement to moslems.
... who want to be immigrants.
Dana C , I have not even bothered to read the above . You pose as
as...
Oh no, Dana, Buddug says you pose as! Whatever shall you do!?
a British woman all the time . You try to sell what 'we' do in Britain to the Yanks on this forum . Except that I do not see you as being part of my 'we' . I stated this fact earlier , and your sugar-sweet coating soon disolved . I think you told me to destroy my private ( British) organs on a sharp stick ?
I think that you and your ilk are part of a Trojan horse which menaces the free world .
I sure hope Dana's a better representative of you lot than you are, buddug.
Jesus Christ, just ignore the thing. Trolls should be entertaining, at least. There is literally nothing to see here. Move along...
Aww, but its so fun tearing it limb from limb, over and over and over and over and over!
Dana is a Muslim who lives in Britain . There is no such thing as a British Muslim . Muslims put the idea of nationality behind their idea of being French / American / British or whatever . They see us as impure whilst enjoying the priveliges that our civilization offers them . They try to destroy our system from within .
We have to understand this ( geez , I even feel friendly towards bloody Americans within this context )
When people are forced to give up part of their belief system, they are being asked to give up part of themselves.
We live in a time where culture is being destroyed faster than ever before.
Every 6 minutes a dialect is erased from the face of the earth.
How much faster must this process become?
yeh, but there's no challenge in easy-meat.....
as to Dana's viewpoint, I'm not sure I see eye to eye with it.
We should be free to dress as we like? Perhaps...... but when was the last time you got into....
a nightclub wearing trainers?
a bank wearing a crash-helmet?
a shopping mall wearing a hoodie?
DanaC poses as British , has always posed as British , and she aint British . She be a mad muslim .
yeh, but there's no challenge in easy-meat.....
as to Dana's viewpoint, I'm not sure I see eye to eye with it.
We should be free to dress as we like? Perhaps...... but when was the last time you got into....
a nightclub wearing trainers?
a bank wearing a crash-helmet?
a shopping mall wearing a hoodie?
The only one of the above three you can't do here is go into a bank wearing a helmet, but who goes into banks these days anyway? ;)
Jesus, buddug, you think youre racist/discriminatory/bigoted enough?
Indeed . Listen to the the left wing champagne socialists . When they start curling their tolerant lips , the mood tends to swing .
I am a champagne socialist myself . I can put up with a great deal . As an idealist , and a high earner , I accept high taxes .
I do not accept wolves dressed as sheep who try to destroy our civilization from within .
And I am not going to accept the Koran in Europe , full stop .
@ ali...... all three are proscibed over here.
And that's the whole point..... differrent cultures proscribe diffrent things.
No one culture is 'right'.
And my tolerant mind knows how to detect the 'soft' intolerance that people like Dana C try to twist us into accepting , through our fine laws of freedom .
Yeah, wouldnt want those damn dirty towelheads having those putrid, twisted civil rights or that nasty freedom of religion, huh?
It's only our 'fine laws of freedom' that tolerate your bigoted postings, bluddug. Rascist postings are of course illegal and I will shop you in an instant...
I am an educated European woman . I aint no hick . It has pained me to have to come to these conclusions . To protect myself , and the free world , I have to say NO . And yet I was brought up in the intellectual tradition of always wondering why .
Put my head at the post , tell me you will kill me because I am immoral , fuck me I will tell you that you are wrong . And you are wrong .
Wrong for supporting freedom, human rights, and equality?
Fuckin' bullshit. There is no such thing as too much freedom when it does not hurt others.
I prefer the Enlightenment to religious obscurity . Every time .
Hmmmm...hasn't the Koran been in Europe for a long time now? Pretty much since Muslims were taken as slaves by Europeans?
Buddug, you disgust me more than ever now. There is [COLOR="Red"]NO[/COLOR] justification for discrimination or racism.
Aliantha , you are charming in your way , but you have no idea of history .
Ibram , not only do you have a suspiciously foreign name ....
mmmmmm...... was that offer to fuck you genuine? perhaps we can meet up sometime... do you have a mobile number I can call?
A.) 'Ibram' isn't even my name, and B.), even if it were, SO FUCKING WHAT? Does having a foreign name automatically make someone's opinions and facts invalid?
xenophobe.
So people taken as slaves out of Africa by British ships were never Muslim?
So people taken as slaves out of Africa by British ships were never Muslim?
On the whole, no.
Most slavers hit Africa well south of the Muslim north
It is true that some Muslims were brought into Europe by slave ships though isn't it?
According to a quick google it would seem so.
One tends to overlook the 'mc's and the 'macs' . They try too hard , and they tend to elucidate only the brewers' droop , alas .
Bloody hell , Aliantha , if you really want to know , the Muslim slavers in Africa are reponsible for a far greater movement of people than the Europeans . You may also be interested to know that slavery was banned in Saudi Arabia as late as the 1960's .
Be wary of them Muslims .
They have rules , not thought . They are dangerous for us .
I'm aware of that thank Buddug. What I'm suggesting is that, even if 'on the whole' slaves weren't retrieved from Northern Africa, there is no way to discount the likelihood of Muslims having been taken as slaves by British slavers. Therefore, the Koran was brought to Britain and Europe by British and European means.
And they are trying to make us accept their rules in our free world .
NO . No . NO .
Aliantha , Europe was in contact with Islam via Spain in the middle ages . The Spaniards had the good sense to kick them out for once and for all in 1492 . Boabdil was sent to weep in the Alpujarras .
No, YOU are trying to make THEM accept YOUR rules in EVERYONE's free world.
If they want to live by a different moral code and are NOT HURTING YOU, then they should have all the right in the world to do so.
Funny how they keep hurting us though , innit ? Funny like what them really nice Muslims everyone seems to have fer tea , never EVER say they disapprove . Funny that . Never any sort of blanket disapproval from all those MODERATE MUSLIMS . Never any official stamp of shame . And yet we are expected to stagger on and be fine and honorable saying stuff like ' Islam is about peace '? Islam seems to be more about pieces of body than peace .
... and smooth talking people like Dana C who hide their background and talk about 'we' are slowly establishing Islam in the United Kingdom , within the protection of our laws .
Dana C sees you and I as impure cockroaches , by the way .
Thats funny, the ONLY person I see in this thread treating anybody like 'impure cockroaches' is YOU.
I can't wait till DanaC sees this thread.
Islam cannot be disolved into the idea of nationhood . Islam scorns Christianity as being an incomplete form of religious identity . Islam sees the non-Muslim as impure . Islam does not accept any other way . There is no concept of there being several paths to climb the same mountain . A Muslim who decides to seek other paths of thought is an apostate , who theoretically deserves to be culled as an animal .
Islam asks for everything , and there does not seem to be any form of reasonable Islam on the way . Like , I'm really grateful not to be stoned .
They are frightened lunatics , and if they want to stop being seen as such , they should say so . I am sick to the back teeth of talking about tolerance and individuals to the sound of Muslim silence .
I choose not to view the Muslims in my community and circle of acquaintance as lunatics.
You on the other hand buddug, are another thing all together.
I do not want my country to be influenced by these people .
When people are forced to give up part of their belief system, they are being asked to give up part of themselves.
They really aren't forced unless they are already in the country. That applies, according to the article, to 50 in the Netherlands. If new immigrants don't like it they certainly don't have to go to the Netherlands.
Well that's too bad Buddug, because it already has been.
It's festering in the slums and ghettos every day and one day it will erupt like it has in France.
In the case of France it was often 2nd and 3rd generation French immigrants that were involved in the riots. Whether they were forced into the slums or created the slums on their own is something I don't know.
The Islamic dress issue is just a symbol of the assimilation problem and I think a statement by the government to the immigrants.... If you want to live here you must adapt to our culture, you will not force us to adapt to yours.
I may be wrong, but that's the message I get. :confused:
Nope, you nailed it more or less.
I'd be pretty pissed off if our government passed such a legislation because I don't believe that people wearing Burka's are trying to force me to be Muslim. They're practicing the beliefs of their culture.
Why ? Because she puts her British coat on , and tries to tell you how it is in Britain .
She is a Muslim who rides on all our fine and ancient laws in order to strap us down .
She enjoys being on this forum because she can wax lyrical about being British to Americans . Because I am British , I see through her language , she is not one of us . I know I can seem appalling to you lot , but at least I do not pretend to be what I am not .
There is no concept of there being several paths to climb the same mountain . A Muslim who decides to seek other paths of thought is an apostate
hey genius? that is also true of christianity. i'm just sayin'.
Not true , lookout . Unlike the Muslims and the Jews , there is no concept of one rigid way for us Christians .
Jesus swept away all the laws , and told us to see with our hearts. Christianity is about love , whatever the form . As a Christian I have a BIG problem with Islam .
ok, i refuse to get into any discussion with you, but you might want to recheck the new testament again. *this is not an invite for attack from non-believers* if you say that you are a christian - a follower of jesus christ, son of god - but you don't believe that there is only one way then you might want to open up your bible and start re-reading some of that red print.
[SIZE="1"]something about i am the way, the truth, the life, no one comes to the father but through the son...[/SIZE]
*lookout checks out of discussion*
But you are not British.:eyebrow:
Lookout , I am a Christian , and I know my Bible . I feel fortunate in that I can box and fence with any lunatic fringe Christian . The only people I can't beat are the Jesuits .
xoxoxo Bruce , it would be hard to be more British than I . I speak the ancient Celtic language of the British Isles through my father , and our ancestors who went before .
I'd be pretty pissed off if our government passed such a legislation because I don't believe that people wearing Burka's are trying to force me to be Muslim. They're practicing the beliefs of their culture.
Not the point at all. There are a few problems with burkas, some of them may be red herrings. One is the security risk. Can conceal stuff (bombs?) under them. Even if that hasn't / won't happen that doesn't mean the citizens don't fear it. So banning them MIGHT make the citizens FEEL safer. Another is the isolation factor. Intentional or not if you're completly covered you have a literal veil around you, keeping you from interaction. Not great when the goal of immigration is to integrate a person in society. Then of course there are other slippery slope issues.
Banning "religions" is not altogether unheard of either. I think Germany has one against scientology. So there are limits to religious freedom too. I think the US has them too. Last I knew I couldn't sacrifice babies to my god ;)
There is no such thing as too much freedom when it does not hurt others.
To me, this (the above) is the bottom line.
BUT . . . I'm in the good 'ole USofA where that line of reasoning has been drummed into my head.
I agree, though, that immigrants have a choice about where they immigrate and if they don't like the laws, don't move there.
Each country has a right to set a standard for what it believes is acceptable and what is not.
In this case, though, it just stands to reason that there are many important reasons to be able to identify individuals. I mean, how can you check someone's ID if they are in burka? Or, how do you know that they aren't using someone else's ID to buy that restricted item?
I realize you are talking about religious suppression and that is definitely a concern, but, you know, those Scandinavians are much more into homegeneity than we are. :rolleyes:
(Sorry, I'm married to a Swede.)
Dana is a Muslim who lives in Britain . There is no such thing as a British Muslim
WTF? I am a white, English, atheist. When have I ever said I am a Moslem? You claim to be an educated European woman, yet you persist in misreading everything I have ever written. For the last time: My Dad was born in India, to English parents and then moved back to England when he was an adolescent. His family (my family) went over to India with the British East India company in about 1833, where they became a part of the Raj. They were devout catholics.
Mum, meanwhile, was a working class girl born in Post-war Salford, to a catholic father and protestant mother.
I was brought up Church of England, in a mostly secular household and decided at the age of 13 that I was an atheist.
Buddog, are you wilfully stupid to be annoying, or are you actually thick as pigshit? It's kind of hard to tell on a forum, but I am dying to know.
You who don't even live in Britain, have the audacity to tell me, a native born, still resident and deeply patriotic English woman that you more fully represent british views than I do? Fuck you.
Now.....as i said before, IF I was 'an asian' as you described me before, or a 'moslem' as you now describe me, I would find you deeply insulting, ignorant and racist. Is that then the true 'British' way?
Fucking welsh wizards, thank God we kicked your ass and sent you crying home for Arthur.
Man, I was WAITING for someone to mention that. I was too busy fucking with the theme of the posts, not the details, but your fucking title is Militant Atheist... I mean, jeez!
Okay, I just read back my post and realised she's done it again: riled me to the point of insensibility. I dare say my good friend Alyn would be ever so slightly appalled by the last sentence in that post:P
As explanation, and to somewhat mitigate the sentiment, I would point out that he persistently calls me a German because of my (Buddog, take note) obvious Saxon looks; whilst I generally insult him by calling him a Welsh Wizard, because of his long hair and love of Arthurian legend.
Right, a slightly less emotional post:
Buddog, this is the last time I will post to you directly. I abhor everything you stand for and are. You claim Britishness, yet you are wholly removed from the British values that I, and most of the inhabitants of this Island, hold dear. You insult and demean Moslems, regardless of their contribution to Britain. I have a colleague on the council who is a devout Moslem, a traditional Moslem, and also a deeply intelligent historian, whose generosity is incalculable and who spends most of his free time, caring for his invalid (and dying) wife. He's also very funny and routinely makes me laugh in council meetings by whispering shit to me about the Tory councillors when they are speaking. He has been a member of the Labour party, and a Councillor for over twenty years and during that time has done more for the people of our borough than i could ever hope to do. When the ruling party was seeking to close satellite-libraries, the fight against closures was led, very vocally, by this Moslem councillor. None of the proposed closures would have affected his ward, they were primarily based in poor semi-urban and almost wholly white areas. Yet, he fought a solid fight on behalf of those residents for whom the libraries were so important. How dare you, who contribute nothing to the British people, and whose very Britishness is born of vicarious association, condemn someone whose contribution is real and recognised.
Every word you write on this forum shows you to be a racist, anti-human thug. You debase what it is to be British, you debase what it is to be European and I am absolutely sure that my friend Alyn, who has fought all his life against people like you, would consider that you debase what it is to be Welsh.
You are beneath contempt.
Man, I was WAITING for someone to mention that. I was too busy fucking with the theme of the posts, not the details, but your fucking title is Militant Atheist... I mean, jeez!
*Chuckles*. Buddog decided long ago that I was neither English, caucasian nor atheist. I am not entirely sure why. Not that people thinking I am brown-skinned would particularly bother me, there's nothing wrong with that. It's just so ridiculously far from reality that it paints me as something I am not....and that bothers me. Frankly I am more insulted that she thinks me religious. I wuold have thought I had made it abundantly clear on these forums where I stand on matters of faith :P Not that I object other people being religious of course, but again, it's so far from reality as to be ridiculous and paints me as something I am not.
Buddug, after talking to you, its no wonder some people have such a low opinion of you Brits.
(I say this as a staunch Anglophile, I love almost all things british... except scum like you.)
Buddug, after talking to you, its no wonder some people have such a low opinion of you Brits.
Aheh. I'd give her about fifteen minutes in Bolton and she'd be running from a lynch mob:P
I ignored buddug ages ago, so am not interested in her inaccurate ramblings.
Despite my pro-Muslim stance I support the actions of the Dutch Government. The message it sends to me is that this is a liberal country, but it is a Western country and that people who live in the Netherlands are required to conform to the current social norms.
I behave according to the legal, social and religious (where applicable) norms of the countries I go to on holiday. I would be just as scrupulous - if not more so - if I was emigrating somewhere.
If recent emigres, or daughters of Dutch Muslims choose to make an outward statement about their religion, then one of the choices they make is not to leave home. If a woman is modest enough that she is uncomfortable with any man seeing her face then she has to consider whether she is living in the right country.
I - who hate the heat - wouldn't consider moving somewhere like Miami. My caucasion British co-worker is considering emigrating to Australia because she hates the fact England is cold, grey & gloomy. I don't think so personally, but good for her.
I disagree with you Sundae, but I also can see your point. I have a slightly different take on the issue, but I often find myself in the minority with this view :P Even (especially?) amongst my left-wing, feminist comrades.
Buddog has now been banned. I am shamefaced that I allowed her to get under my skin :P Her post to Ibram reveals her, even to me who is a little dense on these things, as a troll.
I disagree with you Sundae, but I also can see your point. I have a slightly different take on the issue, but I often find myself in the minority with this view :P Even (especially?) amongst my left-wing, feminist comrades.
It is quite a cunumdrum, what anti-freedom legislation will people support to protect freedom? It goes right to the heart of what we value. It does, unfortunately, show a lack of confidence in the power of individual liberty to break down oppresive cultural norms.
That's an excellent point Griff.
You're blaming us for the trouble with immigrants going on in Germany, France, England, Spain, etc?
You're right about the odds of a terrorist coming to get you, but the problem of immigrants not assimilating is ongoing. It's festering in the slums and ghettos every day and one day it will erupt like it has in France.
The Islamic dress issue is just a symbol of the assimilation problem and I think a statement by the government to the immigrants.... If you want to live here you must adapt to our culture, you will not force us to adapt to yours.
I may be wrong, but that's the message I get. :confused:
Wow this thread has exploded! Not for the good unfortunately.
Personally I don't think making such a fuz about 50 Burkas is worth while all the (international) attention. The suggestion came from a one-man party who is infamous for his Islamphobia.
I don't think Islam terrorism is about to take over the Western world. What we see is a backroom war produced by some fundamentalists which will eventually will fade away. Yes, probably there will be some more attacks like London, Madrid, but these are only incidents. Unfortunately some Western politician USE this phenomenon to stay in power and that's the whole problem. The more attention you give to this jihad the more popular it becomes. and you only keep it alive for longer.
International Islam terrorism should be fought where it ought to be: in the shadow of every days life by special forces. There was a big chance in Afghanistan but unfortunately the US blew it and is now reaping the bitter fruits.
Eventually the Western style democracy will survive in the world by Globalisation but only when it shows that it is a peaceful alternative. Now most Islam people think that the West is only there to concur their countries and use same methods like Abu Ghraib.
What the Pentagon is doing actually should have been done (and is done in many countries) by Microsoft, McDonalds, Starbucks.
Funny enough one of the first Islam country I foresee a democracy to rise is Iran...
Dana C , I have not even bothered to read the above . You pose as
Wow. Ban must have taken effect in mid-post. Cool.
(apparently not. Buddug must have had to take a hit of oxygen, like Dennis Hopper in Blue Velvet. Or was that Nitrous. Whatever.)
So people taken as slaves out of Africa by British ships were never Muslim?
Kunta Kinte was. I remember that from the book.
Islam cannot be disolved into the idea of nationhood . Islam scorns Christianity as being an incomplete form of religious identity . Islam sees the non-Muslim as impure . Islam does not accept any other way . There is no concept of there being several paths to climb the same mountain . A Muslim who decides to seek other paths of thought is an apostate , who theoretically deserves to be culled as an animal .
Islam asks for everything , and there does not seem to be any form of reasonable Islam on the way . Like , I'm really grateful not to be stoned .
They are frightened lunatics , and if they want to stop being seen as such , they should say so . I am sick to the back teeth of talking about tolerance and individuals to the sound of Muslim silence .
[SIZE="1"]Oh crap. I agree with this.[/SIZE]
I think we should let the Dutch run their country, their own way. The muslim countries do what they want. Why are we concerned about the civil rights of people who would not grant us our civil rights in their country.
Not great when the goal of immigration is to integrate a person in society.
I think this is the key. I strongly disagree with this point. The value of immigration is clear in most western cultures which have been enriched by the absorption of new cultures.
I can't imagine how boring life would be if we all just had one generic culture.
Just think for a minute about how many different cultures have influnced your life because you have access to them in your every day life.
I'm sure you're probably thinking about different foods, styles of dress, music and a vast number of other cultural markers which define other ways of life.
Now consider the idea that if you accept the things you like about new/different cultures, then try and entertain the idea of accepting those things you don't understand.
Life is not without risk, but just because something is a risk, doesn't mean the worst is likely to happen, then again, maybe it might.
Dutch Ban Burkas - nice band name btw
I embrace all cultures with open arms...especially those with good food.
However, I would prefer not to be killed for wearing shorts.
I'd be dead now if that were the case. Plus, I don't think my choice in shirts would be viewed very favourably either.
I'm glad I live in Australia!
I'm sure you're probably thinking about different foods, styles of dress, music and a vast number of other cultural markers which define other ways of life.
Food and music I'll give you. I can't think of an example of my wearing another culture's clothing. Which is interesting, given that the ban is on a certain type of clothing...
So you've never worn a sarong?
What about adopting phrases in another language?
Have I never worn a sarong?
I have actually worn the entire regalia of the Bay City Rollers; Bob Segar (mustache was difficult) ZZTOPP (see aforementioned mustache difficulty plus beard) Stevie Nicks with the Mac (loads of chiffon), (including top hat and cocaine fetish; and, believe it or not, MORE chiffon) Captain and Tennille and...HR PuffenStuff--costume was hellish.
I was lucky to get out of there with my life.
I think we have different takes on the word integrating. I don't mean that they should give up who they are or what they believe. Rather they shouldn't close off from others. Integration in my view is not the melting pot. Integration is being able to able to interract with your fellow citizens. I fully believe burkas are a hindrance to this.
Because you're projecting your understanding of culture onto someone else's.
Don't think so, Ali. The burka is surely a shield, a sign that says 'I don't want you to know me'.
And yet thousands of Muslim women get to know each other every day.
Interesting argument, but it doesn't work.
By your logic, Muslim women in Burka's don't know anyone.
Don't think so, Ali. The burka is surely a shield, a sign that says 'I don't want you to know me'.
Um...do you mean that? Or are you being ironic?
No, I wasn't. The burkha is perhaps like the drawbridge.... only let down to known friends. To me, it seems more of a defensive structure than a religeous symbol ( and of course, like the wearing of the cross, it is optional rather than mandatory on religeous grounds). I don't dispute the right of the person to wear it in most circumtances, but I would expect that person to recognise that, in this society, there are times when wearing the burkha is inappropiate.
Again, by your logic, how would a Muslim woman have friends if wearing a Burka precludes knowing her?
Burka's are tradionally worn only in mixed or male company.
Ahuh...and so when a Muslim woman goes out in public...say, to an event of some kind, taking kids to school even; she can't communicate with anyone right? Because she's wearing a Burka right?
Do you believe that Muslim women only have friends they meet while not wearing their Burka or do you consider it likely that they might make friends when they are too?
I don't think you're making a good argument Jay. Just because you don't think you could communicate wearing a burka or with someone wearing one, doesn't mean that others can't. It is your notions of how one communicates - which are western - that form these ideas. Just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there.
Perhaps I'm not explaining myself so well. Nine times out of ten, wearing the burha is not a problem. But, now and again, it is a problem. In the UK, this was highlighted by the case of a Burkha'd teacher at a Church of England Priamary school. How would the kids feel? how could they relate to a pair of eyes peering out of a sea of black?
OK, that is the emotional arguement.
Now let's look at the logic.......
Muslim women who choose (it's not mandatory) to wear the Burkha do so out of a sense of modesty - ie they do not wish to enrage the lustfull passions of those males who might be so enflamed by the sight of their visage. TBH, I have yet to see an eight year-old 'turned on' by dimpled cheeks and a friendly smile.
Little boys are not the only males in a primary school environment.
There are some women here who wouldn't dress like I do because they'd feel uncomfortable showing off their tits that much. I wonder how they'd feel if the government decided that all women must show a certain amount of cleavage because if they don't, they might be hiding something.
It's the same argument. Just a different perspective.
She only wore the veil because there was a mixed sex staff.....that said, on that occassion I think the woman was out of line. Reason being, that she attended her interview at the school without a veil. She was interviewed by a man and obviously decided that with her veil she wouldn't be given the job. Fair enough, I can see her point.....but the people who employed her, as a classroom assistant for children who were learning English as a second language, were therefore not aware of what they were taking on. Given that the children were learning English as a second language, I would have thought that being able to see the mouth shapes of words, would be pretty important.
That was one case. The vast majority of women who wear veils do not find it impeding on their ability to do their job or engage with the world. The trouble is we only really hear about the extreme cases.
There's heaps of women here who wear veils although not too many that wear burkas. The greatest exposure I've had to women wearing veils etc are in the universities here.
Hubby has quite a few muslim students also and finds them to be valuable members of his classes veil on or off.
There are loads of gals at my uni who wear veils and quite a few who wear the....it's not a burkha but it looks a lot like one. It's black and closer fitting than a burkha...actually they usually look absolutely stunning in them. truly graceful looking piece of kit.
Well-educated Muslim women are the best possible outcome. Education solves all problems.
I think we are in agreement there.
Some of the muslim women wear those here too, but mostly only in winter. lol it's a bit hot and humid here in the summer I would suspect.
UT...I agree and that's a large part of why I think it's important to be tolerant and try to understand the culture more because if understanding is working one way, often it will lead to better communication the other way as well.
Although I'd be a bit hesitant in agreeing that education solves all problems.
Please, I'm trying very hard not to be intolerant.
But, at one level, I cannot understand the attitude that allows the wearing of burkha's in such a sensitive environment as a Church of England Primary school, yet bans 'hoodies' from shopping malls and crucifixes from BA check-in desks.
Please, I'm trying very hard not to be intolerant.
Try harder? She wasn't allowed to wear a burkha in a C of E school. The ban on hoodies was patently ridiculous...a knee jerk reaction by the Blue water shopping centres, there is no ban on wearing a crucifix on BA check-in desks merely an employment regulation that such crucifixes be worn under the shirt not in view.
Well, I'd probably wonder why a Muslim woman would want a job in a Christian school to start with, that being said though, I think Dana cleared that particular situation up and it would seem that there was some deception employed during the process of her being hired.
As to hoodies in shopping malls, I'm a bit gobsmacked about that. Hoodies are the height of fashion over here during winter and I can't imagine why they'd be banned. Well I can imagine why they have been elsewhere and a case could be made for the same here, but I'd doubt it's solved any problems. With regard to the cricifix issue, it wasn't even a crucifix, It was simply a cross. There's a huge difference. Either way, I think it's a stupid company policy and staff should protest loudly about it.
sorry, you'r right, it wasn't a crucifix, just a cross......
still got banned, though.......
and as for the Bluewater mall...... are Burkha's allowed in there?
They should be, just as teenagers wearing hooded tops should be. But really, are we going to base our definition of tolerance on what some stupid commercial enterprise thinks is reasonable? And the cross wasn't banned. They asked staff not to wear them on the outside of their clothes, but under the shirt instead. I also think that was unreasonable. As unreasonable as telling a moslem woman that she shouldn't wear the veil in public.
I dont agree with the fact that they did so, but I can totally see the logic.
Problem is, logic is far from everything.
I'm sure I said this already........ I have no problem with people covering their faces in public.
mmmmm.......
specially the ugly ones huh?
And yet thousands of Muslim women get to know each other every day.
Interesting argument, but it doesn't work.
By your logic, Muslim women in Burka's don't know anyone.
They only know women. ;)
I don't think that's the case either. My argument was to Jay suggesting that a burka stops people from communicating. Obviously it does not.
I disagree, at least here, women wearing burkas (rarely) or veils (more common) do not talk to men they don't already know. It's impossible to start a conversation with them. :headshake
I disagree, at least here, women wearing burkas (rarely) or veils (more common) do not talk to men they don't already know. It's impossible to start a conversation with them. :headshake
I back up Bruce here.
In Muslim tradition, women and men just don't interact (Edit per Husband ((backseat writer)): other than their relatives). The women generally tend to only know their own women friends and only unveil around these women in the privacy of their homes.
For a man to even look a Muslim woman in the eyes is a serious offense, hence the desire of the women to remove the temptation.
I heartily agree that being full covered is a dinstinct impediment to communication, for a number of reasons. We communicate by sight, by body language, by shape, by scent, by reading the expression in the eyes combined with the expression on the rest of the face. Someone in a burka becomes an anonymous blob, really. Not to be offensive to the one who chooses that garb, but more about what my impression is on the outside.
I haven't actually seen anyone around here in burka, just tons of hijab (the nun-like scarf around the head), but I could imagine it would be pretty off-putting, especially in a society that tends to communicate a lot through their use of style, or lack thereof.
Even the women I've seen in hijab don't make eye contact or act friendly. Even with each other, if they don't already know the other woman. It's really kind of awkward when our kids are playing at the park.
But that's all part of their culture, part of how they were raised and how they want things to continue to be.
I can see why the Dutch, or any Western nation, would be threatened by that. It totally changes, and challenges, the rules about how we present ourselves, how we chose to be perceived and how others perceive us. KWIM?
Further edit by hubby: (why doesn't he just sign up? grumble grumble grumble) Traditionally, Muslims live their entire lives within the walls of their homes. They don't have windows looking onto streets like we do. Their homes are literally surrounded by high walls.
In Algeria, when the Arabs saw the French with their big windows, they were appalled, thinking, "Why do I want to see inside this person's house?"
Have any of you lived in a very cold climate? Fact is inside or out people who are bundled up don't interact as much. There is an element of unknown to everything unless you know the person well. That said there is not much that can be done about the weather. It's silly to suggest it outright stops communication but it's a hindrance.
Once again, they are immigrants in public. If they want to be in a private setting and wear it fine. If they want to go to a country that allows it fine. If they want to go to the Netherlands the message I'm getting is you're going to become part of Dutch society.
And you know how the Dutch are . . .
We visited hubby's aunt and uncle. She's Swedish, he's Dutch. In their kitchen cupboard hubby found a mug that said "I Respect My Father." He thought that was very scary.
Until we visited a gift shop and saw a whole shelf of them.
In other words, I would not use the word "flexible" to describe them.
And yet thousands of Muslim women get to know each other every day.
Interesting argument, but it doesn't work.
By your logic, Muslim women in Burka's don't know anyone.
In a sense, they don't. They by their own religious law can only "get to know" half, or less than half of people that they might meet. Even associating with other women is under the control of their husbands (or fathers, if unmarried).
If they have any unsanctioned interaction, they face punishment from either their husbands or from the religious authority.
Punishment, under Shariah Law, is not pretty.
Well ok, I understand all the points you've all made, and they're all very fair, however, in reality - at least over here - the vast majority of Muslims I have met/known/interacted with on some level just don't fit the picture you're all trying to create.
Maybe the culture here is different. Maybe Australia is where the 'less hardline' Muslims come to in order to avoid persecution by others.
Australia is a long way from Europe. I would say that bad policies in other European countries (say, oh, Sweden) are a lot more influential to the Netherlands than to Australia. That's only a guess however.
If they have any unsanctioned interaction, they face punishment from either their husbands or from the religious authority.
Punishment, under Shariah Law, is not pretty.
That may be the case in strict islamic countries....it may even be the case in some families/sections of the moslem diaspora in Europe. It very much is not the case with most of the moslem woman i have met and interracted with. Now, granted the ones whom I have met and interracted with are, by dint of my interracting with them, not the ones who live in seclusion...and those who live in seclusion I obviously haven't interracted with. But, my primary experience of moslem women/girls, is of strong minded and highly political, well educated people who take an active role in their towns and cities. My university is full of them; Bradford university even more so. There's nothing shy or shrinking about these gals, I can tell you. I met quite a few of them through the Student Labour group and the anti-fascism coalition. I never had a problem interacting with them and more importantly neither did our male co-activists.
I used to be really, really anti-the veil. As a feminist the whole concept appalled me. After all, my only real knowledge of such things had come from the horror stories of the taliban enforced disenfranchisement of the women and girls in Afghanistan. Then two things happened to change my thinking somewhat: During the bringing in of laws outlawing the wearing of headscarfs, veils and other 'religious' symbols in French schools, I heard a french moslem woman interviewed on the radio. She was a staunch feminist and an educated, strong woman. She said "twenty years ago, i fought for my daughter's right, not to wear the veil.....now I am fighting for my daughter's right to wear the veil."
I think that sums up the changing nature of veil/burka wearing. Yes, twenty years ago, it was something that was imposed on women by a deeply patriarchal culture.....but whilst that may still be the case in some parts of the world, and amongst those immigrants arriving for the first time in the West, the majority of girls and women born in the West, who choose to wear it now, do so for their own reasons.To me, the decision to wear something which so visibly identifies one in terms that have become almost routinely hated and discriminated against in the West, to proudly declare a cultural heritage and identity, in the face of such hostility is a brave stance to take. It doesn't declare them as non-British(in the case of those living here), it declares them proudly Islamic. The two are not mutually exclusive.
The second thing that has changed my thinking is having several heated debates about the veil with feminist, veil and non-veil wearing moslem women. I ended up confronting my own prejudices. The arrogance that assumes these girls have no choices in life, and are fundamentally weak, merely because they exist in a different paradigm.
That may be the case in strict islamic countries....it may even be the case in some families/sections of the moslem diaspora in Europe. It very much is not the case with most of the moslem woman i have met and interracted with.
I saved a girl from an honor killing here. Her crime? Behaving like an American teenager. She was caught wearing pants and makeup. And talking to a
boy. Very bad girl, she was. Got really good grades too.
I have also worked with an Islamic family whose very crazy daughter was hitched in an arranged marriage. They imported a guy from the old country who was wed to her sight-unseen. She now has two children she's too crazy to take care of, but that's what her blonde Main Line Muslim step mom's for.
That may be the case in strict islamic countries....it may even be the case in some families/sections of the moslem diaspora in Europe. It very much is not the case with most of the moslem woman i have met and interracted with.
Wearing veil or hijab are very different from wearing burka.
I have a hard time imagining a muslim woman wearing burka but being willing and open in talking to others, especially men.
Chastity of the person is part and parcel of wearing burka. I don't see muslim women having one without the other.
If they compromise on the chastity of the person, there is no reason to wear the burka.
Think in terms of a Catholic nun in habit. She wears the habit in public, so everyone knows her reglious stance. But if she were to have a sexual affair, in offense of her vows of chastity, then the wearing of her habit is going to make the offense all the worse in her own mind. She has to chose to be guilt ridden every time she puts on the habit or she has to chose to disassociate the act from the habit.
In the end, it is the same. Along with the wearing of the garb comes the whole philosophical and cultural aspects associated with it. I don't see having one without the other.
I have a hard time imagining a muslim woman wearing burka but being willing and open in talking to others, especially men.
At my uni, there are girls wearing the full cover up. Just the eyes showing, through a small letterbox like slit in the headgear. Now, i don't know all of them, but I am on regular chit-chat terms with a couple of them and they don't seem to have a problem interracting with the rest of the university community.
Interesting. That is certainly not typical.
Makes me wonder how long before they throw the cover off. The cover is all about chastity, but if they are not having chastity of the eyes, then why continue to where it?
I wonder if this is part of their slowly moving away from the standards of their parents . . .
At my uni, there are girls wearing the full cover up. Just the eyes showing, through a small letterbox like slit in the headgear. Now, i don't know all of them, but I am on regular chit-chat terms with a couple of them and they don't seem to have a problem interracting with the rest of the university community.
I wonder how the lecturers coped.
'Can anyone answer this question? Yes, you, miss..... hah, sorry, third burkah from the right...'
How did they know whose marks were whose? who did well in class and who didn't?
What do their passport photo's show? And their driving licences? And does my bomb look big in this?
Jay...my husband is a lecturer and has always spoken very highly of his muslim students and doesn't have problems identifying them...even the ones wearing traditional dress.
I'm sorry to hear about your husband.... for a while there, I had high hopes...
ah well, back to reallity.....
In truth, how does he cope? With 5 or 6, maybe more, burkhas before him, how on earth does he tell one from another?
It must surely be like the old chinese thing.... they all look alike to me. only in spades!
Well, I'll have to ask him how he tells them apart, but I suspect it's because even when people are dressed alike, you can tell them apart...if you care to take the time to get to know them.
My only concern about burkhas...
Dont they get FUCKING HOT, not to mention uncomfortable and claustrophobic?
but surely this comes round as the perfect circular arguement... the burkha is designed as a wall, the ultimate 'i don't want you to get to know me' ?
Generally for good students it's beneficial to be known by your lecturer.
But, my primary experience of moslem women/girls, is of strong minded and highly political, well educated people who take an active role in their towns and cities. My [COLOR="Blue"]university[/COLOR] is full of them; Bradford [COLOR="blue"]university[/COLOR] even more so.
Doesn't that in itself make them different from the majority of Muslim women, especially in the middle east and southeast Asia? Maybe even in Australia, Britain and the US? :confused:
Many many of hubby's Muslim students come from the middle east, as did a lot of the students I studied with when I was at uni.
[COLOR="Blue"]Many many [/COLOR]of hubby's Muslim students come from the middle east, as did [COLOR="blue"]a lot [/COLOR]of the students I studied with when I was at uni.
How many million female Muslims are in the middle east? What percentage of them aren't allowed to go to school at all?
But isn't the fact they traveled abroad, as well as went to the university, make them different from most of their peers?:smack:
I suspect that the state of education for girls (and even for boys) varies drastically between rural and urban settings. It is also likely to vary drastically according to class, sect and ethnicity. The same could be said of Hindu communities and African communities. This is not peculiar to Islam.
What percentage of them aren't allowed to go to school at all?
You'd be amazed. In one of the Axis of Evil members, Iran, 45% of the students are female.
Yes, urban vs rural would probably show a big difference. Does anyone know, in the urban setting are they schools separate sexes, and do they get the same subjects of instruction? :confused:
How many million female Muslims are in the middle east? What percentage of them aren't allowed to go to school at all?
But isn't the fact they traveled abroad, as well as went to the university, make them different from most of their peers?:smack:
In most countries people who attend university over seas are different. I can't say what makes them different other than their nationality.
My chief contact with Muslim women has come through my practice. In Canada (we lived there for two years) there was a number of Muslim families in my practice. The married women were always accompanied by their husbands, who spoke for them! It was bizarre to ask a woman a question and have her remain mute, while her husband answered for her. If I said, "Where does your leg hurt?" she would say nothing, just look at her husband, and he would gesture vaguely toward her lower leg and say, "It hurts there." Not a recipe for quality medical care.
Usually they would have a child or two along with them, and the father would be the only one to speak to the children - until they were out in the waiting room again, when the woman would speak English to the kids. This was not a language barrier in the usual sense.
The Muslim women who came in on their own had husbands who were 'away' for a prolonged period of time, in another country :neutral: ; and these women, every one, were depressed, super-anxious, and on the verge, or over the edge, of nervous breakdowns. There were very few ways to help them, because they were dropped off and picked up by male family members, and they were not permitted to go to counseling of any kind. It was the most upsetting thing in my practice.
I realize that not every Muslim woman in the world (or at least, in the West) is having a nervous breakdown or not permitted to speak by her husband. But the number who were either severely anxious, or not permitted to speak to a female doctor, in one limited population sample, was astonishing. I didn't have any Muslim families with a basically healthy wife who was allowed to speak for herself.
After that experience, I have a dim view of the claims that veiled Muslim women are 'liberated'. That term didn't exist for the women I saw.
I think Holland is trying to establish a quid pro quo. If they want to move to another country from these Arab "homelands", their must be a reason. Thus, there should be an inherent sense of give and take. Historically, other cultures moving into Western Europe and North America have inreasingly faced govenments trying to accommodate them, with the hopes that they will inegrate into their communities and interact. The problem is that recently, these populations immigrating seem to be more take than give.In my hometown there was only one female Muslim MD, and her practice was overrun by Muslim women patients, because they were not allowed to be touched or examined by a male. Yeah, that's real enlightened.
I, for one, feel that there is a tendency for "Western" democracies to allow individuals to immigrate, and join the melting pot. Then all of the sudden we discover that these groups, by and large, stick together and hence areas like Little Italy or Chinatown flourish. No surprise, but these communities and cultures co-existed and combined to form present-day Western democracies, while still retaining some of their original integrity.
The trouble is that in the last few years, say 25 or so at a guess, these countries have allowed in vast numbers of immigrants who wish to continue the attitudes and actions of their homeland, just as they have since WW II, at least, but in a much more intolerant manner. The liberal governments have then bent over backwards to allow any group to dictate to them by evoking the principles of freedom of speech and religion, and consequently have eroded any backbone that may have been politically present. The fact that these governments were predominantly white WASP-descended engendered a sense of "let them be, we are trying to show how tolerant we can be".
The problem is that most of these groups tend to exhibit too much take, as I said before. A muslim group in Ontario wanted to forego Canadian laws and impose Sharia law on their community. Someone or some people in Ontario finally had enough backbone to say "sorry, this is Canada and we do not allow religious law; we ALL abide by the same set of rules." Unfortunately, many Muslims have shown a considerable reluctance to abide by this principle. They obviously feel that they are emigrating to another country with the aim of continuing their lifestyle as it was in their homeland. How "Animal Farm"!!
What will happen is that eventually these fringe societies will eventually take on political force, and suddenly we will wake up too late to the fact that extremism has a political foothold. This movement needs to be checked, and I think THAT is probably the message the Dutch government is sending. Democracy is founded on the greater good, and strict followers of Islam seem to be missing this.
What will happen is that eventually these fringe societies will eventually take on political force, and suddenly we will wake up too late to the fact that extremism has a political foothold. This movement needs to be checked, and I think THAT is probably the message the Dutch government is sending. Democracy is founded on the greater good, and strict followers of Islam seem to be missing this.
Good point.
And after finally seeing Syriana tonight, I agree even more than I did before, that Muslims are not seeing the concepts of freedom and civil rights with the same eyes we use.
It is hard for us to accept that they are not interested in freedom the same way we are, therefore, it is hard for us to understand that they may be fighting the good fight for political reasons that have nothing to do with civil rights.
The picture of moslem women unable to speak for themselves is a genuine one. The picture of moslem immigrants unwilling to adapt or intergrate, is a genuine one.....but the picture of western born moslem women who are strong minded individuals is also a genuine one, as is the picture of moslems who love their adopted country.
The reality is that the moslem diaspora is very very large. One simply cannot generalise across the entire diaspora through a single view of moslem behaviour. There is as much variance within the moslem population as there is amongst the Christian population.
Very true.
Which is why making laws is a tricky business. We must keep the general populace safe, even if it means infringing on the rights of a few. The potential downside of incorporating the rights of the few is too huge in this case.
There certainly are Muslim families in Holland like Orthodoc describes, but in my experience they are in the minority.
What I do see here are many self-assured young muslimas, many of them wearing headscarves out of own free will, very well being able to speak for themselves.
Having said that, I realise there's quite a way to go for the muslim male population.