Dominoes
Let's forget the thickos and the uneducated for a tiny second . We can excuse them .
Why do white educated people ( with all the Martin Luther King stuff , and hey we've all wept listening to 'Strange Fruit' , and apartheid is crap , and we aren't going to buy those peaches , and everyone has read Frantz Fanon and Césaire , Senghor , Toni Morrisson bla bla bla ). White educated people who know that eleven MILLION people were displaced from Africa to the Caribbean and to America . White educated people who know that the people who were criminally kept down are their equals in every sense .
Well , why do those white educated people secretly know/ hope that their grandchildren won't be black ?
OK , Aliantha , it's even worse . They do not even entertain the idea .
I think you're making a sweeping statement that's simply not true.
Well , it's true for me . It is a terrible thing for me to admit . I am an intellectual who is profoundly motivated and convinced by the idea of our common humanity . I combat racism every day .
I am also the product of my childhood . My parents were seen as avant-gard in Africa . They were . It was also clear to me that I was white in all the countries I went to as a child .
I am now in the French Caribbean . My children are the only white pupils in the class . They are of an age when children fall in love .
I know that there is a wall in my head that has been built over centuries against that .
I recognize that wall , and ask questions . I dare to ask questions . I think Cyclefrance will understand . It is to do with Kipling and The British Empire as well .
Well you can talk about colonialism and empirical thought as much as you want, and maybe it's true that you feel that way (I think that's what you're trying to say) and if so, I would think that perhaps you need to change your world view.
To answer your question; I don't think 'all' educated white people feel that way. It's certainly true that some do. In my personal experience, there is much to be gained by having children of mixed race, but it's also challenging. I don't think my parents gave it a second thought when I started dating a man who's skin colour was different to mine, and I'm certain they were overjoyed when we told them I was expecting his child. My parents are far from uneducated although they don't have university degrees.
Maybe my family is different, but the racial diversity in our large group is great in my view. We have people from pacific islands, Japan, Portugal and the Phillipines who have married into our family and therefore have lots of dark skinned kids running around with the fair skinned ones. The children are colour blind.
It's a shame some adults aren't although it's not a problem we have in our family.
Thank you for being so frank and true , Aliantha .
No problem. This is a very serious issue and I think it's a shame that educated people can still feel that way about race. I certainly don't think any country has solved the problem of racism in any of it's forms and the further problems associated with these types of views only bring confusion into the mix.
Ultimately, if you're worried about your kids getting involved with kids of a different race, I would suggest taking the blinders off for a minute and try not being a slave to your upbringing and education. Let yourself be free of what you're afraid of.
Aliantha , I would not for a minute stop my children from falling in love with anyone .
I am just trying to be honest about all the mental luggage a child of the ex British Empire carries around .
I'm a child of the same empire but I don't have the same thoughts. I just don't think racism can be blamed soley on ones heritage. Doesn't there come a time when everyone gets to choose which is wheat and which is chaff?
btw...my apologies for misinterpreting what you meant.
I think that I try to get rid of that luggage more than most people with a similar heritage to mine do .
Whoops , our messages are crossed .
Well that's good for you. Maybe in time more people will do the same. The pity of it all is that I don't believe there's that much time left. Some people tell me I'm a pesimist, but when you see all the hate in the world, it doesn't leave much room for hope.
But it does not matter . I think we are beginning to understand each other .
Maybe I'm just an exception, but mixed-race doesnt bother me in the slightest. In fact, my girlfriend is half-mexican, which would make my kids, if it gets to that point and we actually have any, quarter mexican. And I dont care.
I thought it bothered me...before I realized who I was, and the things that were important to me. The color of one's skin scrapes the bottom of my list. More importantly are the things they believe and the way they behave, etc...
The heart wants what the heart wants...regardless of color, or a lot of other things, at least for me.
I think it would be silly to deny myself something because i'm hung up on something as trivial as a color...
I have a thing for certain races, but not all of them are white. James Bond liked em, so I liked em too. If a partner happens to be black, they must like metal. Or tolerate it. It does, in fact, happen.
Pretty much single rule for dating is: You see this? This is what you will be dating. If you see room for improvement, I will of course engage wiht you in frank but respectful dialogue re: that improvement. On date one, we should be only complimentint one another. or we will be booted from the date. Same goes for several more dates, wherein we pretend to be the most open minded, amaYzing hearts we have ever met. Then we start "dating" dating.
This phase is the last in which you may make improvements to me. Afterwards, you drive off the lot, and I'm yours. Changes can be made OCCasionally to haircut, but not the haircut you saw on Guiding Light. It must be rock like, or able to become that way with minimal effort.
1. No , I won't quit the band.
2. No, I won't move to the town your mothr lives in, unless it's within 100 miles.
3. I'm not going to move in with you until we're married. That's how I was raised, and the only downside is that people will point and laugh. So you gotta be good with that.
4. If that's too hard, we can sneak around for sex occassionally, but we must repent for not giving strong enough effort to our moral desire to be pure.
5. That's only if I luck into a virgin. shhh.
And for the 3rd time, I find myself at the end of a post that I don't remember the content.
But anyway, if they're the right girl/boy for you, you should not be denied love becasue of the pointing and snorting of low class babboons.
Très ...intéressant , Monsieur .
Perhaps you want the very best for your grandchildren, and being realistic, know life and success might be easier for white children. ;)
Nothing gained is worth having unless it takes a bit of blood, some sweat and a few tears.
Guess who's coming to the French Caribbean for dinner?
I would be more than happy to have a black grandchild.
You sound like the bigot to me Bud... it is time to move-on.
That goes both ways BTW. I was dating a lovely girl who was told not to because of my race. It is equally a bad, bigoted, racist and everything else people like to call "us"... all races are. It's just ok to say it about Caucasians. I have exactly 0 White guilt and never will. Never owned a slave, "held a brother down" or encouraged it in any way, so I have no reason to own that shit... get over it.
You beat me to it, rzkenrage. The phenomenon goes all ways. Why on earth focus on 'educated white people' and descendants of the British Empire? (Besides, many descendants of the British Empire are not white. :D ) It's very common that a particular race or ethnic group will not want their children to marry 'out'. Some groups will ostracize or disown children who don't choose a partner from within the group - or will simply choose their child's spouse for them, and you can bet what the spouse's background will be. This is a human tendency, not an 'educated white' tendency.
Bud, perhaps your children will be gay and grandchildren won't be an issue for you. Problem solved.
Be fine with that too, being bi.
re: my previous post -- I really must stop posting under the influence. Why doesn't anyone ever warn me?
I don't think there's anything wrong with black grandparents hoping their kids are black, nor for Asian grandparents to hope their grandkids are Asiatic looking, or for <fill in the blank>, etc etc etc. Thanks to the white power/black power/whatever power morons, we have this idea that it's wrong to have a preference for your own race. It's not wrong, and it shouldn't be equated to "racism" in the negative sense.
If you don't care whether or not your kids look like "your people", that's great. Your dating options have widened dramatically. But don't feel guilty, and don't project negative racist intentions on others, if you or they have a different preference.
[ymmv][semi-rant]Not everything deserves or requires a 60s revolution-style backlash. I can't wait for the hippies/self-proclaimed radicals to get old enough to move to Florida and play shuffleboard, and stop making mountains out of molehills. You made your points, and some of them were good ones, but it's now time to feel something other than rebellious selfrighteousness for awhile.[/semi-rant][/ymmv]
Of course it's racism. If your kid is dating someone, getting along with them and there is nothing you don't like about them but their color, you are a dirty bigot, end of story.
But it isn't that simple; color isn't an isolated attribute. It usually goes along with culture, group history, and many other details that make up a person. If, for example, Japanese parents strongly want their kids to marry only Japanese spouses, it's as much or more about a common history, culture, language, spiritual approach, continuation of the extended group, and similar expectations, as it is about color. I think that calling them or those who think like them 'dirty bigots, end of story' is taking too simplistic an approach to a complex issue.
Do I disapprove of cross-cultural marriages or inter-racial marriages? No. I'm in one. But I understand the common desire to see your children continue in their own heritage. I don't think that's a bad thing in itself.
Picture it this way, rkzenrage. Many people, when they discover they or their partner are pregnant, can say they have a preference for having a boy or a girl. This does not mean they do not want the other gender, but all other things being equal, if they got to pick, they could make a decision without being thrown into ethical psychological turmoil.
There's a difference between sentimentally wanting your grandkid to have blue eyes just like grandma, and not wanting a bi-racial child. Most people can love their grandchildren unconditionally regardless of how they look, but also delight in finding genetic similarities between themselves and their offspring.
But, what you feel and what you do about it determines who you are. True, we all have our prejudices.
A bigot does something about it.
If you want only boys and abort all your girls, you are a murderer... if you sabotage all of your daughters boyfriends who are not your race, solely based on race, yup... you are a dirty bigot. Yes, it is that simple.
If you want to preserve your nationality that badly, you should have never left the home country & should go back.
Yesterday, I heard a story that cheered me up when I needed it, reinforcing that there are good people on this earth. My friend (also my bartender) was telling me her older sister just got back from China, adopting her second chinese child. She told me all about how the girl recognized her aunt from pictures, and how thrilled the whole family is. Curious, I asked what went into their decision to adopt overseas. I think this is a wonderful thing, well, any adoption is, but I was curious. She told me her older sister, who is 50 years old, is gay and is married to a woman.
I thought about how nice this is for the children they have adopted; this couple has love to give and these children need that love (both adopted from orphanages, the new child will have to recover from rickets from malnutrition.) The whole family is happy, grandma and grandpa love these children as if they were the fruit of their fruit. In fact, my friend's father had to do a presentation for an organization he is involved in. He wanted his oldest daughter to speak of her experiences in China and the adoption process. Though my friend said her father has never been very demonstrative, he introduced his other daughter by saying "We know that heroes exist in this world. It is a beautiful thing to find out one of them is in your own family." The daughter was crying so hard it took a while to make her speech.
If only everyone could look over the differences around them, and give love regardless of issues of race, sexual preference, creed, religion.
Anyway, I just thought it a good place to tell this story that made me happy when I heard it.
Exactly, my brother in law has adopted many multi-racial kids and my nieces and nephews are never discouraged from learning their heratiage... is a non-issue.
You're right, Rob. There's a big difference between wanting your child to marry a (insert color/race) and have babies that look like the rest of the family, and trying to sabotage a relationship that child is having with someone of the "wrong" color/race.
The only thing worse is trying to prevent your child from even associating or being friends with, someone of the "wrong" type. :(
Frantz Fanon who was a black French Caribbean intellectual and a psychoanalyst wrote a book in French called 'Black skin , white mask' . He wrote about all the subtle mechanisms that make the black man feel inferior . He was not talking about direct racist attacks , just the soft warm current that flows through you when you are a kid . He could analyse all that because he was a psychoanalyst . He happened to be black too .
I think that what he talks about happens to white children too , that soft warm current , no direct contact with racist violence , and lots of surface words , and just knowing that you are white , and 'better' . Of course that word 'better' would never be used in educated , liberal circles , but it is lying there like a snake all the time . I think it is time we had a European psychoanalyst do what Frantz Fanon did , but with the white child as the subject . I think it is time we had the courage to face the obscene ghosts we carry around with us .
... and for which we are not to blame AS INDIVIDUALS .
There's a phrase used to describe what you're talking about Buddug. It's called 'New Racism'. It is the result of Social Darwinism. Google it and you'll find lots of references.
I'm not suggesting it's bullshit. It's obviously a key element of modern society in my opinion.
I disagree that we're not responsible for it as individuals though. Some of the statements you've made recently suggest that it's a problem you're having at the moment.
Hmm , I am trying to be honest about all the currents that have flowed through me , Aliantha . There are loads of Aussie currents . Wild drunken men shouting 'she'll be right' into the dark tropical night , and then being rough with 'the natives' . And then organizing a very serious and honest vote under a tree on a tiny island . I used to go out to the islands with the District Commissioner .
So should I be ashamed of the history of the men before me, or should I be more concerned about how I behave today?
It was rough , but it was fair for those times .
Well, my point is that niether you nor I are at the mercy of any currents that 'flow through us'. We're the masters of our own fate and have the ability to change the course we're on.
There's nothing special about that.
What has come before should be acknowledged. Can even be used as a tool for learning or a point of reference, but it can't be blamed for how we are now. We all have choices, and if we know our choices are wrong, then we must change them, or be as shameful as those who came before.
But what the British , and then the modern Australians did to the Aborigines needs to be told to the world .
Not many people know about the macabre football games played in the Outback . The ball was the head of an Aborigine . This may not have happened regularly , but it happened . See Max Gallo for tip-top university references on the subject .
And who knows about the Stolen Generation ? There is a National Sorry Day in Oz for this , but have the Australians on this white forum ever mentioned it ? Tell them , Aliantha .
I'll be happy to talk about it to anyone that wants to know Buddug, however, I'm intelligent enough to know that I can't change the past. The only thing I can change is the future and believe me, I'm doing my part in that as best I can.
I agree that the history of Australia's white occupation has been horrific and shameful. About as shameful as all the other colonisations by the British and their compatriots at the time.
Well , Aliantha is relaxing . Right up to the 1970's , babies and children were forcibly removed from their Aborigine mothers . We are talking trucks with white men swerving through desert dust and stealing babies and children from screaming mothers . Why ? So that those babies and children could be put into special orphanages ( and sorry I nearly forgot ...made 'Christian' . Those children were raped and treated as slaves , and could not contact their families . Read Sally Morgan's book on the subject .
I have read it. In fact I used it for a paper at Uni.
There has been discussions on this board about Australian movies. One of them was 'Rabbit Proof Fence'. I'm sure you've seen it.
As I said, I'm quite happy to discuss these issues with you, but I'm not sure what the point is you're trying to make. I've agreed that the history of white mans residence in this country is shameful and continues to be so in many ways. What would you like me to do? Gather up my stuff and return to 'the motherland' from whence my ancestors were evicted for stealing a loaf of bread - metaphorically speaking.
J'accuse .
I accuse you of knowing , but not saying . I accuse you of being silent . How easy it is to say that you are happy to talk about all sorts of subjects , as long as they are not raised !
I accuse you of being a moral coward .
lol..that's just a joke. You don't know anything about me so you're speaking on a subject on which you are uninformed.
Start a discourse without the slurs and we'll go from there, but you're going to get the same response from me if all you want to do is shock others with less knowledge.
Again, the history is horrific. It's what we do with the future that makes the difference. Since I can't change the past, and I refuse to be ashamed of something I didn't do, I'd rather look towards making sure the same sins aren't repeated. This is my stance and my philosophy. If you think there's something wrong with it, then go ahead address it, but unless you have all the answers, don't try and suggest that I should in some way attempt to turn back the clock and change the past.
This is the problem that a lot of people in my generation face. Many acknowledge and would like to in some way 'make up' for what has gone before, and while that sentiment is admirable, any reasonable person must realize that there is no way the pain can be taken away. There's no way to turn back the clock and there's no way to bring back the people and families who've been murdered or torn asunder. What we can do is work towards finding a solution, but that is difficult when all some people wish to do is enflame the situation.
You're preaching to the converted.
Discuss the issue, or find some other horse to whip.
Lots of froth about the future .
Well shit, I might as well just blow my head off now then. That'll make up for at least one aboriginal or TI that was murdered. Not sure how much good it'll do my children though.
Well this is what happens when you respond to one of her threads, Ali. No point to it really, I advise against it.
Well by her reasoning UT, she needs me to educate you and other Cellar Dwellars on the history of Australia since colonisation. I just figured if any of you wanted to know I'd be happy to share what I know with you without bias, but I think Buddug just wants me to feel guilty, and I'm not going to.
I am delighted to see that my ideas go beyond Undertoad's conception of this site .
Undertoad should be happy too . We are breaking down boundaries !
Pardon me for saying so Buddug, but I think you're digging a pretty deep trench...just while we're into analogies etc.
But we are very far from being truly rigorous in the intellectual sense . I am working in that direction . I have to do it slowly .
And Aliantha , between you and me , Undertoad is pissed off about what I said about the American debt to China .
Just a point. Remember it was the British who declared this land 'Terra Nullius' and thereby claimed this land as British land, illegally, which is what has caused so many of the issues now, including the
Mabo decision which in itself was the right decision and demonstrates that Australians - particularly the educated ones - recognize the transgressions of our British forebears and are willing to accept that there must be a better answer.
Now the question is finding the right answer so that we may all live in harmony. This of course is not easy, but it's something that many many white Australians as well as Indigenous Australians are committed to.
And as for GUILT , my darling Aliantha , if you stick around long enough I shall show you that guilt is selfish shit , made to blind us .
I refuse all forms of guilt .
Truth does not need guilt .
I'm not your darling Buddug. Please don't condescend to me.
You should feel lucky that I even bother to talk to you .
I must say that I feel flattered to see Undertoad's pop-eyes pressed against evey window I choose to open .
Aliantha is an Australian , Undertoad . And I am a Pom . We understand each other . She knows how Poms are , and I know how Aussies are . We may seem to fight .
Perhaps you should not interfere , Undertoad ?
Perhaps YOU should quit before youre TOO far behind. You are being a condescending, arrogant, pompous, rude, hypocritical bitch.
Even ignoring for a moment that UT is the OWNER and ADMINISTRATOR of the cellar, he is also a poster, and has every bit as much right to participate in any conversation as anyone else. As a poster he's advising Aliantha to ignore you because you're simply a troll, but as a moderator/admin he has done nothing. YET. I personally advise him to do something about you but that's not up to me. Meanwhile, if we ignore you or use you for sport like the troll you are, no harm done.
Would you like a glass of water after all that effort , Ibram ?
Aaand more condescension. I'm not suprised. You're almost as bad as UG.
But you love me don't you ?
In my opinion, UT can post what he wants where he wants. This is his site after all.
You're right though Buddug. I do understand you. Doesn't mean you're not being offensive though, along with pompus or that your thoughts here are in any way helpful to intellectual discourse - even the lower form of it that we see here.
If you truly are as thoughtful as you seem to be trying to demonstrate, how about doing some research first because I assure you, you will get burned if you continue down this path.
What I would like to know is why you enjoy being so insulting. I've had to deal with people like yourself before, and I've never been able to figure out why they must behave in such a disgraceful manner. Maybe that's why the British thought it was ok to invade someone else's land as if they didn't exist?
At least I'm not a bitch when I need to get laid :)
no...you're just a tart. ;)
Please continue . I like listening to your words , Aliantha .
:worried:
sounds creepy...
I'm with you kinky (cue, weird spooky music)
Yanno the sad thing, everyone has a stalker but meeeeee :(
I'll be your stalker Ducks. ;)
lol...yeah...that's me. A giver. :cool:
I'm with you kinky (cue, weird spooky music)
Yanno the sad thing, everyone has a stalker but meeeeee :(
Aww, DN, I bet that's just not even close to true. The question is, do you
really want a stalker?
Talk is cheap and sentiments are worthless Buddug, if you are suggesting that something useful can be done then say so. If you are saying we all need to wax poetic about the injustices done in the past and beat our chests about how evil we all are to have ansestors that did these things then you are welcome to do it by yourself and in private. If you try to bring up some sort of bs about educating the world about it and internalizing it all then you'll really show your true colors as someone who derives no greater pleasure than to tell people they need to feel guilty over something that has no relevance to them. There is nothing to be gained by this, move on and deal with your ghosts in a more constructive manner.
9th engineer , I have the impression that the Americans don't want to see . They feel guilty , because they always saw . We did not see in Europe . We did wrong . But we never saw slaves . We saw loaded ships he
9th engineer , I have the impression that the Americans don't want to see . They feel guilty , because they always saw . We did not see in Europe . We did wrong . But we never saw slaves . We saw loaded ships headed for Africa . Those loads were exchanged for slaves , and those slaves were highly visible in America . You had all those 'gone with the wind ' style plantations . Even now the idea of Scarlett O'Hara is romantic . How can this be so ?
Mad southern stuff .
Do you think you will ever say sorry ?
I was under the impression that we DID say sorry, along with multiple amendments stopping legal discrimination from happening.
You seem so intent on instilling guilt in Aliantha and other descendants of racial oppressors, Buddug. Therefore, I am asking what it is YOU are doing personally, Buddug, to compensate for the racial horrors committed by YOUR forebears?
Stormie
