Do You Hear That Sucking Sound?
DULCE PINZÓN is a photographer/artist who's latest exhibition is photographs of Mexicans at work, around NY City. She has them dressed in superhero costumes while doing their daily jobs. Why? Because she feels they are the real superheros, making everyone elses life more comfortable.
You can see the pictures at the link but here are the captions;
Juventino Rosas from the State of México works cleaning fish in New York sends home $400 per week
Federico Martínez from Puebla has worked as a chauffeur in New York for 4 years sends home $250 per week
Minerva Valencia from Puebla works as a babysitter in New York sends home $400 per week
Adalberto Lara from the State of México has worked in construction in New York for 4 years sends home $350 per week
Álvaro Cruz from the State of México Works as a cook and runs with the team "Los compadres" of N.Y. for 7 years Sends home $300 per month
Paulino Cardozo from the State of Guerrero Works as a loader in New York Sends home $300 per week
Román Romero from Tlapa, Guerrero works as a nightwatchman in New York sends home $800 per month
María Luisa Romero from Puebla employee in a laundry in Brooklyn , N.Y. for 4 years sends home $150 per week
Ernesto Méndez from México City works as a prostitute in Times Square for 2 years Sends home $200 per week
José Rosendo de Jesús from Guerrero works as a union organizer in N.Y. for 5 years sends home $700 per month
Noe Reyes from the State of Puebla Works as fast-food delivery boy in Brooklyn sends home $500 per week
From just 11 of the 10 to 16 million Mexicans here, that's $3,000 a week or $150,000 a year, that's not being spent in this country...... that's not being invested in this country.
Right up there with walmart for sucking the country dry.:eyebrow:
And yet we're all oppressive, racist jerks, trying to keep 'em down. Sheesh.
xoxoxoBruce]From just 11 of the 10 to 16 million Mexicans here, that's $3,000 a week or $150,000 a year, that's not being spent in this country...... that's not being invested in this country.
Well, at least their not putting it up their noses or smoking it to the benefit of some Columbian drug dealer. What about someone who puts all his money in an off-shore bank? What about someone who invests in a foreign country? Should they be prevented from doing this?
What about the business owners who hire the illegals under the table and thus avoid paying payroll taxes? (the john's who hire the prostitute being the exception) Aren't THEY the real root of the problem?
The Mexican workers did the work for the benefit of the people here in the US. What they do with their wages surely should be their own business. My Swiss Uncle once sent me $3,000 to help me get through a rough time. Was he being a traitor to Switzerland? :neutral:
My Swiss Uncle once sent me $3,000 to help me get through a rough time. Was he being a traitor to Switzerland? :neutral:
No, but if he went across the border to Austria solely to get money to send back to Switzerland, Austria would suffer. Particularly if Austrians remained unemployed because others were taking the jobs.
Does Austria border Switzerland? I can't remember.
Poles are in Europe what Mexicans are in the US. Personally I think they´re a blessing.They work hard for a low prices enabling us to compete with low cost countries. In my company I have several Poles working, therefore keeping my production in my own country instead of having to outsource it, including loss of jobs for my local staff...
No, but if he went across the border to Austria solely to get money to send back to Switzerland, Austria would suffer. Particularly if Austrians remained unemployed because others were taking the jobs.
Does Austria border Switzerland? I can't remember.
Yes, Austria does border Switzerland. But the fact remains, my uncle took $3,000 he could have spent in Switzerland and, instead, sent it to a family member in a foreign country.
So...how much of our money can we send somewhere else before we have a financial collapse? And will the US be such an attractive place to look for work if that happens?
Would Americans do the jobs that these immigrants are doing? but I think Marichiko's point has more point - what about all the Big Money that is banked, stored, spent abroad? Really Big Money ....
Why single out Mexican workers' wages? Lots of other countries get lots of money from the U.S.
These people earned the money they made. It's theirs--they can do whatever they want with it.
O still don't see why we need to argue over whether how they spend their wages is detrimental to the country if they broke the law to get here. Everything after the boarder crossing is a mute point, wouldn't matter if they donated every cent to the Red Cross...:neutral:
Besides the mention of the prostitute, I don't see where it says that they are law-breakers. Mexican does not equal "illegal immigrant."
I think every country has issues with people who are in a country either legally or not, sending the money they earn back to the family they've left behind in another country.
This issue is very contentious over here also, and from my own personal experience, not one that's easily solved.
And back to the very real fact that the economy of Mexico would have cratered by now if 20% of their citizens were not working in the USA and sending that money home to be spent. For that reason and not in the least out of concern for their citizens and the problems they suffer trying to get to and stay in El Norte, the Mexican government wants to get them here more easily and keep them here. If they stayed in Mexico they would be homeless or unemployed and possibly starving, a visible proof of the failure of society and services there. So expect even more vocal demands and denunciations from the new President of Mexico about our need to "reform our immigration policies", he has to make sure this pipeline is not cut off :eyebrow:
I've debated the point of this thread quite a few times, but never outside the context of illegal immigrants. Once you start including honestly legalized Mexicans in the group the argument breaks down totally since it's pretty damn hard to say we need to stop citizens from spending their money in foreign countries. It's just too easy to back the other debater into a wall at that point so I made an assumption for the sake of argument I guess:neutral:
Why single out Mexican workers' wages? Lots of other countries get lots of money from the U.S.
These people earned the money they made. It's theirs--they can do whatever they want with it.
The only reason for singling out Mexicans, in my first post, is this photographer/artist had gathered the information as a side effect of her project. It's one of those things where you're reading something, and information that applies to something completely unrelated, jumps up a hits you in the eye.
Keep in mind, she is Mexican, they could be lying,....uh, exaggerating, how much they're actually sending, to impress the chica.....or each other. And even if these 11 people are here legally (I'm betting they are not), it's not about them....it's a indicator of how big a drain the millions of others are.
Mari, when he starts sending you a check every week, then it's a drain on his country. If you had 10 or 15 million uncles over there, it would become a big drain on their country.
The other problems you mentioned are part of the big picture also, as are the millions of Social Security checks that are being sent out of the country every month, but that doesn't negate this one.
Limey, would Americans do these jobs that would pay them enough money to live in NYC(expensive) and have enough left over to send $500 a week home? Absolutely.
Aliantha, you're absolutely right. Many countries have this problem and it's not easily solved. That said, first the problem has to be defined in size & scope, then solutions defined & implemented, but nothing happens until the citizens say they are mad as hell and not going to take it any more.
I always assume the leaders(politicians) are at least as lazy as I am, which tells me we have to light a pretty big fire under their butts. :D
That doesn't make any sense, Bruce. If you assume that they are lying about how much they send to Mexico, then how can you use it as an indicator for anything?
Curious--why do you bet that the subjects of the photos are here illegally?
Once you start including honestly legalized Mexicans in the group the argument breaks down totally since it's pretty damn hard to say we need to stop citizens from spending their money in foreign countries.
What you may or may not know is that periodically there is a rush to the border from down south. It usually follows rumors that some amnesty law will be passed up here so that everybody can have a free green card and not have to hide anymore. Has happened twice that I can remember since I have been in Fresno (which huge numbers of these folks head for). During the last surge, the Mexican government hurried to pass a law which gave Mexicans permanent citizenship, regardless of any other country they felt obligated to become citizens of, provided they were not required to renounce all other ties by said country's laws. You see, they were desperately trying to be sure that anybody who got amnesty and stayed in El Norte would know they were still Mexicans and not our new citizens, their ties were still in Mexico. Nothing could have made it plainer that it is the deliberate policy of Mexico to encourage their citizens to tap the USA for their economic advantage. All the outrage and bombast about how WE are treating all those poor disadvantaged Mexicans who are just doing jobs that Americans refuse to do (for half minimum wage and no benefits or security). The Mexican government WANTS them all to come here. So long as they send the money back "home".
Don't misunderstand me. I love the Mexican people and their culture, they are some of the finest people in the world. But their government is a cancer on their culture, and it is killing them.
That doesn't make any sense, Bruce. If you assume that they are lying about how much they send to Mexico, then how can you use it as an indicator for anything?
Curious--why do you bet that the subjects of the photos are here illegally?
I didn't say they were lying. I said they could be lying (or inflating) the numbers, so we can't take the actual numbers as real data. It's a macho thing, like the number of "conquests", ya know?:vikingsmi
I think most, if not all, are illegals because the artist/photographer is a Mexican promoting the wonderful service Mexicans are doing for the citizens of NYC. Plus most of the Mexicans in NYC are illegals from what I've been reading. A much greater percentage than the other Hispanic groups there.
Bruce, my situation was more personal. My ex partner who happens to be the father my my children also, is Samoan. During the time we were together, he sent thousands of dollars back to the island for his mother. We're no longer together, but apparently all up, he's sent over more than $40 000 which is about 4 times what he has paid in maintenance for his children.
You tell me what's wrong with that picture.
So...how much of our money can we send somewhere else before we have a financial collapse? And will the US be such an attractive place to look for work if that happens?
If we have a government deficit spending to the tune of what? 3 gazillion dollars a year and we don't want our currency completely devalued, wouldn't it be a good thing to send the extra dollars away and fight inflation with cheap labor as well? *shrug* just sayin'
Aliantha, I don't think I have to tell you.:(
Griff, next time I go to Times Square I'll ask the lad if he's cheaper than the other boys. Considering the sums they say they're sending, I don't think any of the 11 are working for cheap....more like prevailing wage. I suppose the cheap may come from ducking employers contribution.
I didn't say they were lying. I said they could be lying (or inflating) the numbers, so we can't take the actual numbers as real data. It's a macho thing, like the number of "conquests", ya know?:vikingsmi
I think most, if not all, are illegals because the artist/photographer is a Mexican promoting the wonderful service Mexicans are doing for the citizens of NYC. Plus most of the Mexicans in NYC are illegals from what I've been reading. A much greater percentage than the other Hispanic groups there.
I guess I took the work in a different way, being familiar with the art world and many Mexican artists. I really enjoyed looking at the photos, and felt that the artist communicated her intent successfully--showing certain people of her culture in their everyday situations, while they make contributions to U.S. culture and their families in their home towns. Given the paranoia that's taken over recently, it makes me doubt that most of the people portrayed have illegal status.
Shit..I just realized I never linked the story, just the artist. Doh
I'll have to find it, she explained the project in the article. :smack:
Here,
http://www.kunsthaus.org.mx/Dulce/menuDulce_ing.htmShit..I just realized I never linked the story, just the artist. Doh
I'll have to find it, she explained the project in the article. :smack:
Here, http://www.kunsthaus.org.mx/Dulce/menuDulce_ing.htm
Apparently we don't need to know anything to talk about something.:redface:
Or the story of why she undertook the project, is secondary to the point I was trying to make with the side light information she inadvertently provided. ;)
Yeah...that's my story and I'm sticking with it.
Eh? That is the same site you linked to before, just a different page...or was that what you meant to do? :confused:
The first link would take some searching to find the story so I linked to the one that had it. Most people, if they even risk going to a link(at work), don't want to start clicking around too much. :worried:
Especially on an artist's web site...you never know what you'll find. :lol:
Ain't that the naked truth. ;)
And the core of the problem still is not in the United States: the core of the problem is that Mexico lacks a middle class visible to the naked eye. No way up -- unless you go north.
Should they remove every factor in their sociopolitical environment that militates against a vibrant middle class, Mexico will become a great and wealthy place to live, work, and raise families. However, we'd have to go back and undo about everything from circa 1521 AD to get that: unlike North America, colonized almost entirely by a horde of smallholders, each with a stake in growing his little patch, Mexico's colonization was by a sparse sprinkle of aristocrats, who knew only one economic model: large landholding, which model they operated under. There's hardly a better way to ensure that you have a small percentage of major landholders -- and a propertyless class of laborers without prospects of being anything but laborers.
That's an awfully big job -- but it would make "our" illegal-immigrant problem go away permanently.
OK, UG, I agree with your solution. Given the known number of controlling family units in Mexico, by my calculations we probably have to execute no more than 3-5,000 people to clean out this "mindset" of theirs which is so inconvenient. However, I'd like to point out that this solution is always the first agenda of any Latin American populist revolution, including the one which tore Mexico apart circa 1910. First they kill all the large landowners and industrialists and "divide the land among The People." Then, for good measure, kill all the priests and nuns because the Catholic Church traditionally supported the ruling class. But then a funny thing takes place: suddenly even the lowest peasant who gets any power begins ruling in the exact template of the oppressors which were removed. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. How do you plan to solve THAT problem? Wipe the whole country clean and start over? "Education camps" a la Mao? Mass brainwashings and indoctrination in "proper values" as in 1984? Oh dear, what's the World's Only Superpower to do so that these inferiors will see that we are right?
Rumsfeld could solve the problem. :lol:
In my opinion, the US should make it easier for immigrants to enter the US legally, then perhaps more people would. I know that's simplistic, but here is part of an email that floated across my desk recently:[COLOR="Blue"]Recently large demonstrations have taken place across the country protesting the fact that Congress is finally addressing the issue of illegal immigration. Certain people are angry that the U.S. might protect its own borders, might make it harder to sneak into this country and, once here, to stay indefinitely. Let me see if I correctly understand the thinking behind these protests.
Let's say I break into your house. Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave. But I say, "I've made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors; I've done all the things you don't like to do. I'm hard-working and honest (except for when I broke into your house)."
According to the protesters, not only must you let me stay, you must add me to your family's insurance plan and provide other benefits to me and to my family (my husband will do your yard work because he too is hard-working and honest, except for that breaking in part).
If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my right to be there. It's only fair, after all,
because you have a nicer house than I do, and I'm just trying to better myself.
I'm hard-working and honest . um, except for ... well, you know.
And what a deal it is for me!! I live in your house, contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of selfishness, prejudice and being
anti-housebreaker.[/COLOR]
Oh I don't know what the solution is, but if I ran the world (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.. whew!) if you want to live here, come in the right way, and those who do should be welcome.
I agree. If they come legally and obey our laws, they should be welcome.:thumbsup:
[COLOR="Blue"]Recently large demonstrations have taken place across the country protesting the fact that Congress is finally addressing the issue of illegal immigration. Certain people are angry that the U.S. might protect its own borders, might make it harder to sneak into this country and, once here, to stay indefinitely. Let me see if I correctly understand the thinking behind these protests.
Let's say I break into your house. Let's say that when you discover me in your house, you insist that I leave. But I say, "I've made all the beds and washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the floors; I've done all the things you don't like to do. I'm hard-working and honest (except for when I broke into your house)."
According to the protesters, not only must you let me stay, you must add me to your family's insurance plan and provide other benefits to me and to my family (my husband will do your yard work because he too is hard-working and honest, except for that breaking in part).
If you try to call the police or force me out, I will call my friends who will picket your house carrying signs that proclaim my right to be there. It's only fair, after all, because you have a nicer house than I do, and I'm just trying to better myself.
I'm hard-working and honest . um, except for ... well, you know. And what a deal it is for me!! I live in your house, contributing only a fraction of the cost of my keep, and there is nothing you can do about it without being accused of selfishness, prejudice and being anti-housebreaker.[/COLOR]
Ugh, whoever wrote this obnoxious email doesn't understand the "thinking" correctly. But you are absolutely right, lhatcher; if it were easier for immigrants to enter/be here legally, more would. Most people don't want to come or be here illegally, it's often a matter of survival and they don't have much choice. I think the author of the email takes for granted the freedoms that we enjoy in the U.S., and can't begin to fathom any other way of life.
The author doesn't understand that a) millions of immigrants undocumented by U.S. Immigration are in fact documented by the IRS, and do contribute as much as anyone else, and b) if the workers who do not presently pay taxes are allowed to stay and become legal, they can get a SSN for that very purpose. I know I've said this stuff on other threads, so I apologize for sounding like a broken record.
this is how we do it in Europe:
Ugh, whoever wrote this obnoxious email doesn't understand the "thinking" correctly. But you are absolutely right, lhatcher; if it were easier for immigrants to enter/be here legally, more would. Most people don't want to come or be here illegally, it's often a matter of survival and they don't have much choice. I think the author of the email takes for granted the freedoms that we enjoy in the U.S., and can't begin to fathom any other way of life.
The author doesn't understand that a) millions of immigrants undocumented by U.S. Immigration are in fact documented by the IRS, and do contribute as much as anyone else, and b) if the workers who do not presently pay taxes are allowed to stay and become legal, they can get a SSN for that very purpose. I know I've said this stuff on other threads, so I apologize for sounding like a broken record.
Yes more would come legally if it were easier. But, we already accept more legal aliens than anybody else....I suspect probably everyone else combined.
When are we full? Where does it stop? Do you think they will ever fix their own country as long as they can come here? Do you realize what would happen if we just left the door open to all the people in the world that want to be here? How long would be until we didn't want to be here anymore?
Yes, some are paying taxes. But what about drivers licenses, car insurance, medical insurance so the ERs get paid, property taxes for the schools and all the other fees and levies we pay? Since they only want to take the money and run, I guess they wouldn't contribute any more than labor to the good of the country.
Do you think if it was easier to come here legally, the Mexicans would bring the whole clan and leave Mexico behind for good? Not send their money back to Mexico? I doubt it, but I don't have a crystal ball.:right:
Well, that's what we get for being America--we're not like everyone else. Never have been, never will be. We've always been the refuge, the fixers, the supplier of funds, the negotiators. We can't stop--if we do, we become the antithesis of what has created and sustained us.
The fear of the "open door" is not new by any means in U.S. history (I feel weird explaining this. Bruce, you're smart, you should know this). For centuries, people already here have always become very alarmed by cultural and population changes, but we've survived every wave to our general benefit.
Yes, if it were easier to legally come to the U.S. (and be here, for those recently arrived AND those who've spent almost their entire lives here), Mexican and other immigrants would bring their families to stay. As has been pointed out by others, there is little, if anything, for them to succeed or even just live in the countries they came from. Why? Because those countries suck, and we rule. ;)
When I say "open door", I don't mean "open turnstile" where everyone coming in is documented. I mean open the door and anybody that wants to, can wander in without restriction or documentation. I will always be against that.
There are a million reasons to control our borders. Control doesn't mean closed, it means we know who is coming and going, we know who's here and in some cases, such as students, what they are doing here. This is one of the things we have a federal government for....one of the few legitimate duties of the feds ......who seem to be too busy messing with things they shouldn't, to do what they should.
I have no fear of foreigners that come here legally, have a desire to be Americans.....loyal Americans. They've been coming for two hundred years and making the country stronger and better, often more loyal and contributing more, than native borns.
I do fear and resent, however, invaders that come to pillage without regard for our laws....without regard for U.S./us.
The people in Los Angeles know real fear, up close and personal fear, from a criminal element that's come north to prey on illegals and branched out.... using the illegals as their power base/revenue source.
We're seeing much more of this in PA, also.... a hispanic criminal element that regularly preys on illegals for the money to expand their horizons. The victims can't get help from the law because they themselves are criminals of a different stripe.
Yes, I feel sorry for them, it sucks to live that way.....But I maintain their problems don't supersede the problem they are creating for/contributing to, the rest of us.
The Mexicans taking down the American flag at the CA Post Office and running up the Mexican flag....twice, with impunity....turns my stomach. Not because that piece of cloth is so important, but because it shows an attitude, shows they feel they are above our laws, shows they feel they can do whatever the hell they want and we can't stop them.
What do you think would happen to me if I ran the Scottish flag up at the Philadelphia Post Office. I guarantee I would at least be arrested. Why do they deserve more tolerance than I do? We both know what would happen to me in Mexico or most other countries.
We're different? We're better? We're more tolerant? Yes, but it's only in recent years that kind of crap would be tolerated. I contend it's not a good direction for the country when Political Correctness/embracing diversity, erodes the one thing Americans have in common.
Anecdotes abound, north vs south, east vs west, sailors vs Marines, city slickers vs country bumpkins, even men vs women..... but the one thing that kept us from really serious conflict was our differences were not as important as what we had in common. We would come together like family to defend our commonality....our Flag & Country.
If we lose that, we all become pink monkeys.:(
Yes, some are paying taxes. But what about drivers licenses, car insurance, medical insurance so the ERs get paid, property taxes for the schools and all the other fees and levies we pay?
Renters pay property tax, and everybody pays sales/gas/etc. taxes.
That's true. Except when they are sharing quarters provided by the employer. :)
Are you worried about America not being able to pay for all the money it borrows from China , xoxoxoBruce ? If so , you must be the only American to do so . May I suggest that you choose someone other than Juanita to blame , for the erratic economy of the whole world is due to America's debt to China . America surfs on its debts , and treads the rest of the world underfoot .
From just 11 of the 10 to 16 million Mexicans here, that's $3,000 a week or $150,000 a year, that's not being spent in this country...... that's not being invested in this country.
Right up there with walmart for sucking the country dry.:eyebrow:[/QUOTE]
what the mexicans workers in america are sending back is, quite frankly, not a significant amount when you compare it to the outsourcing of enitire factories full of workers to thrid world countries. the jobs outflow is staggering, and is encouraged by current government policy that does not tax the wages paid by american companies overseas. if american companies were forced to pay employment taxes on the wages that they pay to foreign workers and put those taxes into the Social Security fund for the retirement benefits of the american workforce we could make a difference on whether there is money there for your, my and other working americans when we are ready to retire.
this would also change the benefit analysis that american companies have to make when they justify moving a plant overseas. i don't claim that they would not make the same decision, but it would be important to those relocations that are maginal.
Are you worried about America not being able to pay for all the money it borrows from China , xoxoxoBruce ? If so , you must be the only American to do so . May I suggest that you choose someone other than Juanita to blame , for the erratic economy of the whole world is due to America's debt to China . America surfs on its debts , and treads the rest of the world underfoot .
Yes, very much so.
No, I'm not.
Juanita is not to blame, the US Government policy and actions (which don't always agree) are to blame for creating and maintaining this situation.
Sucks, to be you.:eyebrow:
BobT, I agree with your assessment of the harm done exporting jobs.
Taxing foreign wages paid would be difficult, though.....just discerning when foreign workers are employed vs product/service bought from a foreign supplier.
If US companies have to pay tax on what foreign workers are paid, what about Walmart? Would they have to pay tax on the wages paid to the workers making the products they import?
I'm afraid your idea would be unworkable as it violates a bunch of treaties they've sold us out with. :(
...your idea would be unworkable as it violates a bunch of treaties...
Fuck treaties. We don't follow that shit anymore.
We do when Bush & Co endorse them because they make his friends richer. :p
I agree. If they come legally and obey our laws, they should be welcome.:thumbsup: