Evolution’s Backers in Kansas Start Counterattack

rkzenrage • Aug 1, 2006 3:06 pm
[CENTER]Evolution’s Backers in Kansas Start Counterattack
Image[/CENTER]
Harry E. McDonald, a moderate Republican seeking a board seat, campaigned door to door last week.
By RALPH BLUMENTHAL
Published: August 1, 2006

[RIGHT]Two moderate board members, Sue Gamble, left, and Janet Waugh, visited a school the same day.Image[/RIGHT]
KANSAS CITY, Kan., July 29 — God and Charles Darwin are not on the primary ballot in Kansas on Tuesday, but once again a contentious schools election has religion and science at odds in a state that has restaged a three-quarter-century battle over the teaching of evolution.
[SIZE="1"]Ed Zurga for The New York Times[/SIZE]
Less than a year after a conservative Republican majority on the State Board of Education adopted rules for teaching science containing one of the broadest challenges in the nation to Darwin’s theory of evolution, moderate Republicans and Democrats are mounting a fierce counterattack. They want to retake power and switch the standards back to what they call conventional science.

The Kansas election is being watched closely by both sides in the national debate over the teaching of evolution. In the past several years, pitched battles have been waged between the scientific establishment and proponents of what is called intelligent design, which holds that nature alone cannot explain life’s origin and complexity.

Last February, the Ohio Board of Education reversed its 2002 mandate requiring 10th-grade biology classes to critically analyze evolution. The action followed a federal judge’s ruling that teaching intelligent design in the public schools of Dover, Pa., was unconstitutional.

A defeat for the conservative majority in Kansas on Tuesday could be further evidence of the fading fortunes of the intelligent design movement, while a victory would preserve an important stronghold in Kansas.

The curriculum standards adopted by the education board do not specifically mention intelligent design, but advocates of the belief lobbied for the changes, and students are urged to seek “more adequate explanations of natural phenomena.”

Though there is no reliable polling data available, Joseph Aistrup, head of political science at Kansas State University, said sharp ideological splits among Republicans and an unusual community of interest among moderate Republicans and some Democrats were helping challengers in the primary.

Kansas Democrats, moreover, have a strong standard-bearer in the incumbent governor, Kathleen Sebelius, who has distanced herself from the debate.

“And if a conservative candidate makes it through the primary, there’s a Democratic challenger waiting” in the general election, Professor Aistrup said.

Several moderate Republican candidates have vowed, if they lose Tuesday, to support the Democratic primary winners in November. With the campaign enlivened by a crowded field of 16 candidates contending for five seats — four held by conservatives who voted for the new science standards last year — a shift of two seats could overturn the current 6-to-4 majority. The four-year terms are staggered so that only half the 10-member board is up for election each two years.

The acrimony in the school board races is not limited to differences over the science curriculum but also over other ideologically charged issues like sex education, charter schools and education financing. Power on the board has shifted almost every election since 1998, with the current conservative majority taking hold in 2004.

“Can we just agree God invented Darwin?” asked a weary Sue Gamble, a moderate member of the board whose seat is not up for re-election.

The chairman of the board, Dr. Steve E. Abrams, a veterinarian and the leader of the conservative majority, said few of the opposition candidates were really moderates. “They’re liberals,” said Dr. Abrams, who is not up for re-election.

He said that the new science curriculum in no way opened the door to intelligent design or creationism and that any claim to the contrary “is an absolute falsehood.”

“We have explicitly stated that the standards must be based on scientific evidence,” Dr. Abrams said, “what is observable, measurable, testable, repeatable and unfalsifiable.”

In science, he said, “everything is supposedly tentative, except the teaching of evolution is dogma.”

Harry E. McDonald, a retired biology teacher and self-described moderate Republican who has been going door to door for votes in his district near Olathe, said the board might have kept overt religious references out of the standards, “but methinks they doth protest too much.”

“They say science can’t answer this, therefore God,” Mr. McDonald said.

Connie Morris, a conservative Republican running for re-election, said the board had merely authorized scientifically valid criticism of evolution. Ms. Morris, a retired teacher and author, said she did not believe in evolution.

“It’s a nice bedtime story,” she said. “Science doesn’t back it up.”

Dr. Abrams said his views as someone who believes that God created the universe 6,500 years ago had nothing to do with the science standards adopted.

“In my personal faith, yes, I am a creationist,” he said. “But that doesn’t have anything to do with science. I can separate them.” He said he agreed that “my personal views of Scripture have no room in the science classroom.”

Dr. Abrams said that at a community meeting he had been asked whether it was possible to believe in the Bible and in evolution, and that he had responded, “There are those who try to believe in both — there are theistic evolutionists — but at some point in time you have to decide which you’re going to put your credence in.”

Last year’s changes in the science standards followed an increasingly bitter seesawing of power on the education board that began in 1998 when conservatives won a majority. They made the first changes to the standards the next year, which in turn were reversed after moderates won back control in 2000. The 2002 elections left the board split 5-5, and in 2004 the conservatives won again, instituting their major standards revisions in November 2005.

Critics said the changes altered the science standards in ways that invited theistic interpretations. The new definition called for students to learn about “the best evidence for modern evolutionary theory, but also to learn about areas where scientists are raising scientific criticisms of the theory.”

In one of many “additional specificities” that the board added to the standards, it stated, “Biological evolution postulates an unguided natural process that has no discernable direction or goal.”


John Calvert, manager of the Intelligent Design Network in Shawnee Mission and a lawyer who wrote material for the board advocating the new science standards, said they were not intended to advance religion.

“What we are trying to do is insert objectivity, take the bias out of the religious standard that now favors the nontheistic religion of evolution,” Mr. Calvert said.

Janet Waugh, a car dealer and the only moderate Democrat on the board whose seat is up for election, said that just because some people were challenging evolution did not mean their views belonged in the curriculum.

“When the mainstream scientific community determines a theory is correct, that’s when it should be in the schools,” Ms. Waugh said. “The intelligent design people are trying to cut in line.”

The races have been hard-fought. With the majority of the 100,000 registered Republicans in Mr. McDonald’s northeast Kansas district usually ignoring primary elections, a few hundred ballots could easily be the margin of victory.

So Mr. McDonald, who with $35,000 is the lead fund-raiser among the candidates, printed newsletters showing his opponent, the conservative board member John W. Bacon, with a big red slash through his face and the slogan, “Time to Bring Home the Bacon.” Mr. Bacon did not respond to several calls for a response.

But many of the homeowners Mr. McDonald visited Friday night showed little interest in the race. Jack Campbell, a medical center security director, opened the door warily, and when Mr. McDonald recited his pitch, seemed disappointed. “I thought I won some sweepstakes,” Mr. Campbell said.

Last Thursday night at Fort Hays State University, Ms. Morris debated her moderate Republican challenger, Sally Cauble, a former teacher, and the Democratic candidate, Tim Cruz, a former mayor of Garden City, whom Ms. Morris once accused of being an illegal immigrant. (He said he was third-generation American, and Ms. Morris apologized.)

The audience asked about Kansas being ridiculed across the country for its stance on evolution.

“I did not write the jokes,” Ms. Morris said.

Spectators split on the winner.

“There are so many more important issues in Kansas right now,” said Cheryl Shepherd-Adams, a science teacher. “The issue is definitely a wedge issue, and I don’t want to see our community divided.”
Ibby • Aug 1, 2006 3:39 pm
“What we are trying to do is insert objectivity, take the bias out of the religious standard that now favors the nontheistic religion of evolution,” Mr. Calvert said.


Who would have thought that science has a bias that supports what science has found?
rkzenrage • Aug 1, 2006 3:41 pm
What the hell is the problem with presenting both views, stating that most scientists believe that evolution is the most accurate?
If one is secure in their religion they would have no issue with it, right?
Flint • Aug 1, 2006 3:58 pm
If they want to teach religion is childeren's science classes, we should also teach [SIZE="3"]science[/SIZE] in children's [SIZE="3"]religion[/SIZE] classes - and see who comes out ahead in that bargain.

(In Sunday School we can have a science advisor on hand to demonstrate, at length, everything that the rational adult mind makes note of while studying religion.)
BigV • Aug 1, 2006 4:08 pm
rkzenrage wrote:
What the hell is the problem with presenting both views, stating that most scientists believe that evolution is the most accurate?
If one is secure in their religion they would have no issue with it, right?

Sure.

And in shop class, we could give instruction as to the use and usefulness of the hammer, with, say, a big rock, as an alternative all the while proclaming that most people agree that the hammer is better, buy your mileage may vary.

And in driver's ed, let them choose which side of the road to drive on because the pavement goes both ways, doesn't it?

And in English class phonetic spellings are acceptable and invented definitions on vocabulary tests will be given equal weight.

Hey, if you go put a [/sarcasm] tag at the end of your post, I'll delete this one. Deal?
rkzenrage • Aug 1, 2006 4:17 pm
That is not remotely the same thing and you know it.
There are scientists that believe in intelligent design, I have never been on a site where they wanted to replace my hammer with a rock. Waste of time V.
Flint • Aug 1, 2006 4:19 pm
You are really serious, aren't you?!
Ibby • Aug 1, 2006 4:20 pm
I'm with flint on this one... Teaching religion is fine and dandy... in religion class. If I'm taking science I want to hear SCIENCE, not religion. FACTS, not unsubstantiated beliefs. I am planning on studing religion in school at some point... then you can tell me all you want about what the bible/torah/koran/book of mormon/whatever states. Otherwise, give me the theory that is right, or tell me that it isn't.

I don't mind being told about the old theories of continental drift, because they have been disproven and they tell me exactly why the current theory must be right, or at least much more right than the old ones.
Spexxvet • Aug 1, 2006 4:24 pm
Kansas test:

Q: 2 + 2 =
A: God works in mysterious ways

Q: Who founded Rome?
A: God caused Rome to be founded

Q: Describe a woman
A: Looks like Adam's rib

Q: How long can you survive A)in outer space? B)In the belly of a fish?
A: A)seconds B)3 days

Q: What is the shortest route from Cape May, NJ to Lewes, DE?
A: Part the sea, and drive

:D
9th Engineer • Aug 1, 2006 4:26 pm
The quote about evolution departing from tentitive science is interesting as well. I saw quite a change in attitude in my senior bio class once we entered the evolution chapter. Previously the teacher put in footnotes whenever he felt it was necessary to point out unsolved problems and dilemma's within the existing scientific framework. Come evolution time though, and it was a take-it-or-leave-it battle to the death. Questions about grey areas or contradicting theories were met with acusatory threats and veiled references to 'betraying science'. If the man wasn't holding my GPA over my head like a dagger I would've pointed out to him just how similar his behavior was to religious dogmatics.
Spexxvet • Aug 1, 2006 4:28 pm
Ibram wrote:
I'm with flint on this one... Teaching religion is fine and dandy... in religion class. If I'm taking science I want to hear SCIENCE, not religion. FACTS, not unsubstantiated beliefs. ...


These people believe this stuff to be FACT! Because it's in the Bible, it is INDISPUTABLE FACT. Science is just what mere humans think. It's scary.
Flint • Aug 1, 2006 4:29 pm
9th Engineer wrote:
how similar his behavior was to religious dogmatics


I disagree with this metaphor. The scientific community is reacting to an attack on reason. If the population loses the ability to think then what do you have?

A [SIZE="4"]Dark Age[/SIZE].
Pangloss62 • Aug 1, 2006 4:34 pm
This reminds me of this awful talk show I heard on a road trip last week where the "archeologist" was being interviewed by Dobson or Robertson or whoever the fuck about the remains of Noahs Ark in Turkey. Two of every animal? Uh...what about fish, marine mammals, insects, on and on. The whole idea is so preposterous yet here they trot out the science of archeology to prove some myth. I got sooooooo mad I almost dropped my Slushie!:mad:
9th Engineer • Aug 1, 2006 4:38 pm
He was making an attack on reason himself. He allowed no questions regarding assumptions about geology and genetics and if he found himself unable to answer something he attacked the student who brought it up, saying that the only reason they would have to ask such a question is that they obviously have no idea how science actually works and that they'd better talk less and listen more. A response of "hmmm, can't answer that now. I'll pass it around in the department and see what I come up with" would have be nice.:right:

Once we had it through our heads that we were to simply shut up and accept what we were told he became almost liveable again.
Flint • Aug 1, 2006 4:39 pm
Good for him. Fuck ID.
Kitsune • Aug 1, 2006 4:42 pm
This is cool, guys, really. I'm simply advocating that the government also force science and evolution to be taught in church.
Ibby • Aug 1, 2006 4:51 pm
Pangloss62 wrote:
This reminds me of this awful talk show I heard on a road trip last week where the "archeologist" was being interviewed by Dobson or Robertson or whoever the fuck about the remains of Noahs Ark in Turkey. Two of every animal? Uh...what about fish, marine mammals, insects, on and on. The whole idea is so preposterous yet here they trot out the science of archeology to prove some myth. I got sooooooo mad I almost dropped my Slushie!:mad:


Actually, this I disagree with, because you have to keep in mind... The Bible is not to be taken literally.

It has been found that that area (which to them was the whole world) flooded massively around that era... and remains of a damn big ship was found down there... but when the bible says every animal, it probably means, you know, some deer, some cats, some dogs, a goat or two... etc.

Just like the story about the star over Jesus's birthplace... Some astrologers think they have found evidence of a star that went nova and would have made a bright light appear in the sky here a couple thousand years ago... And a really rad dude named Jesus DID live back then... The bright light probably wasnt right over his head when seen from wherever the hell the 'wise men' were from, but it makes for a good story.

Not every single word of the Bible is a lie... But that doesn't mean the truth isn't streched or exaggerated or objective... and some are just simple mistakes. The world was 'created by god' because they had no way of figuring out differently, the same way that thunderbolts were hurled by zeus because there was no other explaination the ancient greeks could have figured out. The Bible is roughly equal parts moral homilies, 'scientific' theories, and not-too-literal history.
rkzenrage • Aug 1, 2006 4:54 pm
The more I have thought about it, the two scientists that I know that believe in intelligent design are not in that field, it should not be taught in schools.
It is not a theory that can be quantified in any way. Until it can be, it should not be taught.
Flint • Aug 1, 2006 4:57 pm
::: puts away my rkzenrage-beating-stick :::
rkzenrage • Aug 1, 2006 4:58 pm
Don't be hasty baby.
Flint • Aug 1, 2006 4:59 pm
Have you been very, very bad?
rkzenrage • Aug 1, 2006 5:00 pm
Oh yes... so very bad!
BigV • Aug 1, 2006 6:33 pm
rkzenrage wrote:
What the hell is the problem with presenting both views, stating that most scientists believe that evolution is the most accurate?
If one is secure in their religion they would have no issue with it, right?

Ok.

Long answer: Why not teach it in math class? If the student is confident in their arithmetic skills, what's the problem? Or PE? Good athelete, no sweat. Or in music? Only the tin ears have anything to fear. These suggestions are no less ridiculous than suggesting we teach it in science class. It is *exactly* as appropriate in all those classes, including science.

There may be scientists who believe in Intelligent Design. Are you one? Can you cite one? ID is not science and it has no place in a science class, any more than the idea that the earth is flat. Show me. Use science and persuade me, teach me why it belongs in the same breath as science. I've an open mind. I'm skeptical, but willing to give your ideas a chance. That's part of the scientific method: peer review. Let us all review your ideas. Let us all subject them to the same tests and the same standards that other hypotheses are subjected to. If you want to play at science, you must follow the rules.

Otherwise, you're right. It's a waste of time.



Short answer: Because it's not science.
Happy Monkey • Aug 1, 2006 7:14 pm
9th Engineer wrote:
The quote about evolution departing from tentitive science is interesting as well. I saw quite a change in attitude in my senior bio class once we entered the evolution chapter.
That's because the rest of it hasn't been under constant rhetorical assault for decades. The teacher can't let the class devolve into a public reading of answersingenesis.com when the evolution chapter is reached. It would probably be nicer if the teacher had a website that collected all the standard challenges and their refutations, but I'll guess he was just battening down the hatches and trying to get through the material.
...saying that the only reason they would have to ask such a question is that they obviously have no idea how science actually works...
Sometimes that's true. Like "If man evolved from monkeys, how come there are still monkeys?" If a student is trying to filibuster the class by asking all the standard creationist questions, at some point you have to push on.
JayMcGee • Aug 1, 2006 7:42 pm
Outside, Looking in......

You guys have me in hysterics..... the rest of the world looks on, gob-smacked, as the nation that put a man on the moon actually gives credence to the far-right bible-thumpers idiotic ramblings.
richlevy • Aug 1, 2006 7:48 pm
Well, as you can see in my post in the engagement thread, Kentucky will soon have it's own Creationism museum to entertain and enlighten the children so that they can complete their science education and find careers in the fast growing fields of dowsing and phrenology.
Kitsune • Aug 1, 2006 8:29 pm
JayMcGee wrote:
You guys have me in hysterics..... the rest of the world looks on, gob-smacked, as the nation that put a man on the moon actually gives credence to the far-right bible-thumpers idiotic ramblings.


Try living here. It isn't as remotely humorous as outsiders might find it. :(
Pie • Aug 1, 2006 9:47 pm
JayMcGee wrote:
...as the nation that put a man on the moon...

That was staged on a Hollywood backlot. Didncha know?
9th Engineer • Aug 1, 2006 10:21 pm
We wern't trying to get in the way of anything. Trying to teach evolution in two weeks means that all the information is incredibly disjointed, so we often had no idea how any of it fit together. I had lots of questions about the genetics aspect of evolution, I wanted to know how things like rapid intron mutation fit in and stuff like that.
Evolution is always going to raise lots of questions from an inquiring class because unless you have a very good teacher who puts things in the right order and gives LOTS of connecting detail that isn't in your standard textbook it doesn't make any sense. If you tell an intelligent student that evolution occurs over extremely long stretches of time, then say that it is caused by discrete events such as genetic isolation from others of the same species combined with environmental changes it's only natural that the student will want to know exactly how an event which is a few tens of years in duration can provide genetic pressure for the millions of years we were told was needed that is great enough for specification but not so great that it kills off the animals(*deep breath*).

Now, the guy wasn't the brightest bulb in the lamp (I haven't run into alot of highschool science teachers that could explain past the textbook) and he probably only used the textbook for reference, but if you want me to learn something then at least let me point out where I need some more info.
rkzenrage • Aug 2, 2006 12:06 am
BigV wrote:
Ok.

Long answer: Why not teach it in math class? If the student is confident in their arithmetic skills, what's the problem? Or PE? Good athelete, no sweat. Or in music? Only the tin ears have anything to fear. These suggestions are no less ridiculous than suggesting we teach it in science class. It is *exactly* as appropriate in all those classes, including science.

There may be scientists who believe in Intelligent Design. Are you one? Can you cite one? ID is not science and it has no place in a science class, any more than the idea that the earth is flat. Show me. Use science and persuade me, teach me why it belongs in the same breath as science. I've an open mind. I'm skeptical, but willing to give your ideas a chance. That's part of the scientific method: peer review. Let us all review your ideas. Let us all subject them to the same tests and the same standards that other hypotheses are subjected to. If you want to play at science, you must follow the rules.

Otherwise, you're right. It's a waste of time.



Short answer: Because it's not science.

Tail-posting is rude.

My brain hurts.... High-tech museum brings creationism to life
richlevy • Aug 2, 2006 12:37 am
rkzenrage wrote:
Tail-posting is rude.

My brain hurts.... High-tech museum brings creationism to life
Please define 'tail posting'.
rkzenrage • Aug 2, 2006 12:38 am
When you post without reading the previous posts in the thread.
Image
wolf • Aug 2, 2006 2:25 am
Spexxvet wrote:

Q: Who founded Rome?
A: God caused Rome to be founded


Gods, not the God of the Hebrews.

I checked twice, and I can't find the chapter in Genesis where Romulus and Remus were suckled by the She-Wolf.
wolf • Aug 2, 2006 2:29 am
rkzenrage wrote:
When you post without reading the previous posts in the thread.


I still don't get it, but I really don't give a shit.
rkzenrage • Aug 2, 2006 2:37 am
A tail-poster is someone who comes in and posts something which has already been resolved, showing that they, obviously, have not read previous posts.
Tail-posting onto the thread instead of reading the whole thing first.
In this case I had already changed my view on the subject and moved-on, in the other camp... then V comes along and starts arguing with me, quoting an old post, not having read the ones that came after it.
Tail-posting onto the end of the thread.
It is just how it sounds.
wolf • Aug 2, 2006 2:48 am
Message board posting is just like that ... it's not a linear conversation. People come into a thread at different times, and even if you consider some point resolved, they may not, or just want their two cents heard, or to support another poster with whom they are in agreement.
rkzenrage • Aug 2, 2006 3:01 am
You just don't get it. Don't worry about it.
rkzenrage • Aug 2, 2006 3:13 am
The Stirring On The Mount
St. Helens used in drive to prove biblical creation with science
Happy Monkey • Aug 2, 2006 8:52 am
9th Engineer wrote:
If you tell an intelligent student that evolution occurs over extremely long stretches of time, then say that it is caused by discrete events such as genetic isolation from others of the same species combined with environmental changes it's only natural that the student will want to know exactly how an event which is a few tens of years in duration can provide genetic pressure for the millions of years we were told was needed that is great enough for specification but not so great that it kills off the animals(*deep breath*).
Who says that genetic isolation or environmental changes only last a few decades? And you don't need any particularly "great" pressure for speciation, just the separation. Both groups are then under their own normal pressures, and there is no pressure to keep them in synch if they aren't interbreeding, so they diverge.

Yes, it would have been nice if he could have explained that, but it's a question that is worded in a way that might trip up someone without a good grasp of the material, and as you say:
Now, the guy wasn't the brightest bulb in the lamp (I haven't run into alot of highschool science teachers that could explain past the textbook) and he probably only used the textbook for reference, but if you want me to learn something then at least let me point out where I need some more info.
Nothing else in the textbook has organizations arming students with tricky questions to stump the teacher. My guess is you would have found him just as "dogmatic" with any other chapter if subjected to the same level of questioning.
Pangloss62 • Aug 2, 2006 9:18 am
The Bible is not to be taken literally.


I understand that there might be stories in the bible that relate to actual events, perhaps even a boat with animals, but the problem is that many creation scientists DO take the Noah story literally, so much so that they create Noah's Ark Feasibility Studies! You guys gotta check this out:

http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/ark/index.htm
Kitsune • Aug 2, 2006 9:20 am
Pangloss62 wrote:
DO take the Noah story literally, so much so that they create Noah's Ark Feasibility Studies!


What are you talking about? Feasibility studies? They found the thing!
Flint • Aug 2, 2006 9:23 am
I will state, without shame, that I absolutely do not feel any moral obligation to always read an entire thread before posting - especially if the thread is running up to multiple pages. I am at work. I am here, at this site, for light entertainment. In the interest of moving a conversation along, I do make an attempt to gather the context of the discussion, and not waste time re-hashing tired subjects. Unless I have something new to add, that is. Ultimately the decision is mine, and the decision is up to every user as to how they want to use the site, as long as they are following the rules. Now of course we would not enjoy the site if total anarchy erupted and every thread became a string of selfish stream-of-conciousness rants. But, there is a middle ground. For instance, I have not read much of this thread, but I am responding to a particular aspect of it. I may go back and read more if I choose to devote my time to a deeper level of participation. Or, I may post a one-off observation. It is really up to me.

wolf wrote:
Message board posting is just like that ... it's not a linear conversation. People come into a thread at different times, and even if you consider some point resolved, they may not, or just want their two cents heard, or to support another poster with whom they are in agreement.



rkzenrage wrote:
You just don't get it. Don't worry about it.


I think wolf gets it just fine. Maybe you don't get what she is saying.
Spexxvet • Aug 2, 2006 9:25 am
Pangloss62 wrote:
I understand that there might be stories in the bible that relate to actual events, perhaps even a boat with animals, but the problem is that many creation scientists DO take the Noah story literally, so much so that they create Noah's Ark Feasibility Studies! You guys gotta check this out:

http://emporium.turnpike.net/C/cs/ark/index.htm

Nice... waste management
Spexxvet • Aug 2, 2006 10:16 am
wolf wrote:
Gods, not the God of the Hebrews.

I checked twice, and I can't find the chapter in Genesis where Romulus and Remus were suckled by the She-Wolf.


Isn't God responsible for ALL things? Didn't He design our universe so that Romulus and Remus founded Rome? And since he did, is it not right and righteous to give Him credit and worship Him through Jeeeezusss Christ, our Lord and Savior? *genuflects*[/sarcasm]

I think Jesus' philosophy on how to live your life is a good way to live your life. I try to live my life that way, and I think I do a fairly good job of it. But the whole magic aspect of the Judeo-Christian God is just a little too far-fetched for me. Raising from the dead? Pu-leeze! If "God" was the name of the alien leader, in the mother ship named "Heaven", the bible stories would make as much sense. A bright light shines down on Saul? Boy, that doesn't remind you of Close Encounters, does it? (I know - it's a movie).
xoxoxoBruce • Aug 3, 2006 12:05 am
Kitsune wrote:
What are you talking about? Feasibility studies? They found the thing!
The site starts with
Friends, please prayerfully consider the evidence you will see on Noah's Ark.
which sends up the red flags for me. :headshake

And because the turkish goverment says, Yup, it's an old boat, that makes it the Ark.
Stormieweather • Aug 3, 2006 2:00 am
Here's a really fun site sorts of scientific and historical contradictions from the Bible (as well as other religious books). http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/science/long.html

I get a kick out of using this information to question people who try to take the Bible literally and argue it as fact.

Stormie
Pangloss62 • Aug 3, 2006 8:58 am
But why, Stormi, if you try to point those contradictions out to a believer, they refuse to acknowlege them or retreat to some convoluted, faith-based explanation?:mad:

As with my mother, you just can't win. One cannot use rationality or reason when discussing the world with the faith-based crowd. I try to explain contradictions in the bible only for myself; because I don't have to.:(
Kitsune • Aug 3, 2006 9:18 am
Pangloss62 wrote:
But why, Stormi, if you try to point those contradictions out to a believer, they refuse to acknowlege them or retreat to some convoluted, faith-based explanation?:mad:


This is, I think, what makes this debate so difficult. It is job of those that work in the sciences to review each other, find flaws, and discount theories. They are often wrong and it is part of their job to accept it.

Those who deal with faith-based theories are never wrong and cannot be.
Stormieweather • Aug 3, 2006 10:17 am
Pangloss62 wrote:
But why, Stormi, if you try to point those contradictions out to a believer, they refuse to acknowlege them or retreat to some convoluted, faith-based explanation?:mad:

As with my mother, you just can't win. One cannot use rationality or reason when discussing the world with the faith-based crowd. I try to explain contradictions in the bible only for myself; because I don't have to.:(


For entertainment purposes only :D . I never try to earnestly convince or reason with my mom or others like her...but it does help keep her/their sermons to a minimum.

Stormie
Pangloss62 • Aug 3, 2006 10:28 am
I never try to earnestly convince or reason with my mom or others like her...


But there are times when she says very bigoted things about gays, and in the last few years she's even become a bit anti-semitic, and I feel I should argue with her out of principle. She's a Polish Catholic, and I think some of her anti-semitism might relate to that fact. I know I'm gonna be conflicted when her "time" comes; and that will be soon since she's 84.:worried:
xoxoxoBruce • Aug 3, 2006 12:45 pm
Kitsune wrote:
This is, I think, what makes this debate so difficult. ~snip
I'd make that, debate impossible. There can be no debate when one side is debating and the other side preaching.

And, they're preaching literal acceptance of a text written 60 to 90 years, minimum, after the alleged incidents.... by people that told us the world was flat.

Criminologists have proven, that eye witness accounts are not all that reliable, by comparing them to surveillance videos. How can handed down oral histories be more accurate than eye witnesses?

Oh, I forgot, the authors (and translators), were guided by the hand of God....case closed. :smack:
rkzenrage • Aug 3, 2006 9:26 pm
[CENTER][B][SIZE="4"]Evolution opponents suffer setback[/SIZE][/B]
Skeptics lose majority of Kansas Board of Education[/CENTER]

Wednesday, August 2, 2006; Posted: 9:21 a.m. EDT (13:21 GMT)
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Kansas
GOP
or Create Your Own
TOPEKA, Kansas (AP) -- Conservative Republicans who pushed anti-evolution standards back into Kansas schools last year have lost control of the state Board of Education once again.

The most closely watched race was in western Kansas, where incumbent conservative Connie Morris lost her GOP primary Tuesday. The former teacher had described evolution as "an age-old fairy tale" and "a nice bedtime story" unsupported by science.

As a result of Tuesday's vote, board members and candidates who believe evolution is well-supported by evidence will have a 6-4 majority. Evolution skeptics had entered the election with a 6-4 majority.

Critics of Kansas' science standards worried that if conservatives retained the board's majority, it would lead to attempts in other states to copy the Kansas standards.

"There are people around the country who would like to see the Kansas standards in their own states," said Eugenie Scott, director of the National Center for Science Education in Oakland, California, which supports the teaching of evolution.

Also Tuesday, Kansas Republicans chose a nominee to challenge Democratic Gov. Kathleen Sebelius in November. With 96 percent of the state's precincts reporting, state Sen. Jim Barnett captured his party's nomination with 36 percent of the vote, besting six other candidates.

Control of the school board has slipped into, out of and back into conservative Republicans' hands since 1998, resulting in anti-evolution standards in 1999, evolution-friendly ones in 2001 and anti-evolution ones again last year.

Late-night comedians have been making cracks about Kansas, portraying it as backward and ignorant. Comedy Central's "The Daily Show" broadcast a four-part series titled, "Evolution Schmevolution."

A wider intelligent design movement
The school board contest was part of a larger effort by the intelligent design movement to introduce its ideas in public schools.

A suburban Atlanta school district is locked in a legal dispute over its putting stickers in 35,000 biology textbooks declaring evolution "a theory, not a fact."

Last year, in Dover, Pennsylvania, voters ousted school board members who had required the biology curriculum to include mention of intelligent design. A federal judge struck down the policy, declaring intelligent design is religion in disguise.

A poll by six news organizations last year suggested about half of Kansans thought evolution should be taught alongside intelligent design.

Proponents of Kansas' latest standards contend they encourage open discussion.

"Students need to have an accurate assessment of the state of the facts in regard to Darwin's theory," said John West, a vice president for the Center for Science and Culture at the Seattle-based, anti-evolution Discovery Institute.

The standards say that the evolutionary theory that all life had a common origin has been challenged by fossils and molecular biology. And they say there is controversy over whether changes over time in one species can lead to a new species.

Three incumbent conservatives faced primary foes Tuesday, and there was a contested GOP race for the seat held by a retiring conservative. A pro-evolution Democratic incumbent also had a challenger.

With almost all the votes counted early Wednesday, pro-evolution Republican Jana Shaver picked off a conservative incumbent and won the primary for the open seat.

Conservative Republican John Bacon kept his seat by besting two pro-evolution challengers, as did another conservative incumbent, Ken Willard. Janet Waugh, a Kansas City Democrat who opposed the new standards, easily defeated a more conservative Democrat who favored the anti-evolution language.
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Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.[/SIZE]
Griff • Aug 3, 2006 9:34 pm
We don't vote for a state board of ed in PA or NY. How common is it nation-wide? Do you like/dislike it?
rkzenrage • Aug 3, 2006 9:40 pm
The farther removed from the county the power structure is the more I dislike it.
Hippikos • Aug 4, 2006 6:03 am
It isn't necessary to have relatives in Kansas City in order to be unhappy. (Groucho Marx)
Elspode • Aug 7, 2006 11:02 pm
I live in the KC Metro area. I work in Kansas City, Kansas. I am unhappy as hell that these Right Wing idiots are shoving this tripe into the public education system.

They're going to save our souls whether we want them to or not.
tw • Aug 8, 2006 1:48 am
Appreciate why so many Americans are dropping in science and math literacy. A recent study of education in America found that private schools are not doing as well as public schools. And that largest, most obvious drop is the math skills of evangelical school students.

So I decided to see what is taught in a Christian College. No math abilities is made woefully obvious. Some examples:
Northwest Christian college
http://www.nwcc.edu/programs/majors.html:
Bible & Christian Ministry Studies
Bible & Theology
Biblical Studies
Christian Theology
Christian Ministries
Missions/Global Ministries
Pastoral Ministry
Youth Ministry
Business Administration
Communication
Exercise Science
Journalism
Speech Communication
Computer and Information Science (CIS)
General Studies
Global Studies
Human Services
Humanities
Interdisciplinary Studies (Individualized)
Music
Pre-Professional Health Sciences
Psychology
Social Sciences
Teacher Education

http://www.occ.edu/Academics/OCC.Degrees.aspx
Ozark Christian College
Bachelor of Theology(5-yearDegree)
Majors include: Preaching, Ministry, Christian Education, Old Testament, New Testament, Missions, Music
Bachelor of Christian Ministry (4-year degree)
Specializations include: Adult Discipleship, Ministry, Campus Ministry, Child Care Ministry, Children’s Ministry, Church Planting Ministry, Cross-Cultural Family Ministry, Preaching Ministry, Student Ministry, TESOL Ministry, Women’s Ministry, Double Major in Bible and Psychology, Double Major in Bible and Missions, Double Major in Bible and Deaf Ministry
Bachelor of Music and Ministry (4-year degree)
Bachelor of Music and Worship (4-year degree)
Bachelor of Bible and Ministry (2-year degree, requires previously earned bachelor’s degree)
Bachelor of Bible and Missions (2-year degree, requires previously earned bachelor’s degree)
Associate


Dallas Christian College
http://www.dallas.edu/Degrees/degrees.htm
BS-BIBLE AND GENERAL STUDIES
BA-BIBLE AND GENERAL STUDIES
BS-BIBLE & PSYCHOLOGY
BA-BIBLE & PSYCHOLOGY
BS-BIBLE & PREACHING
BA-BIBLE & PREACHING
BA-BIBLE & YOUTH FAMILY MINISTRY
BS-BIBLE & YOUTH FAMILY MINISTRY
BS-BIBLE & CROSS CULTURAL MISSIONS
BA-BIBLE & CROSS CULTURAL MISSIONS
BS-BIBLE & CHRISTIAN EDUCATION
BA-BIBLE & CHRISTIAN EDUCATION
BS-BIBLE & MUSIC MINISTRY
BA-BIBLE & WORSHIP AND YOUTH MINISTRY
BS-BIBLE & WORSHIP AND YOUTH MINISTRY
BA-BIBLE & WORSHIP ARTS
BS-BIBLE & WORSHIP ARTS
BA-BIBLE & BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION
BS-BIBLE & BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION

EDUCATION DEGREES
BS-BIBLE & EDUCATION ENGLISH SPECIALIZATION
BS-BIBLE & EDUCATION HISTORY SPECIALIZATION
BS-BIBLE & EDUCATION ENGLISH & HISTORY SPECIALIZATION
BS-BIBLE & MUSIC EDUCATION

QUEST DEGREES
BA-MINISTRY & LEADERSHIP
BS-MINISTRY & LEADERSHIP
BA-MANAGEMENT & ETHICS
BS-MANAGEMENT & ETHICS
BS-EDUCATION & ETHICS, ELEMENTARY
BS-EDUCATION & ETHICS, SECONDARY


Great Lakes Christian College
http://www.glcc.edu/academics/degreeprograms.php
Bible/Theology Major
Christian Education Major
Christian Ministries Major
Cross-Cultural Ministry Major
Family Life Education Major
History Major
Interpersonal and Organizational Communication Major
Music Major
Psychology/Counseling Major
Youth Ministry Major


History major has 14 history classes, lots of bible classes, no math, no chemistry, no physics, no biology. Only math course offered in the entire school is an introduction to statistics and something called Quantitative Literacy which reads like junior high school math ("apply mathematical reasoning in the everyday world"). Biology is Biological Foundations of Nutrition and General Biology. One general science course called Physical Science: "A survey of the nature of matter and the basic laws describing its behavior as revealed through a study of chemistry, physics, astronomy, and earth science."

Nowhere did I find any courses considered minimally necessary when I went to school. A common factor in all such schools - it teaches how to maintain a status quo existence without questioning anything. Nothing sufficient (as science teaches) to push out the envelope - to test and experiment - to question. No wonder these religious fanatics know things only because they just know. There are no courses that teach how to learn a fact. Just more bible classes.

So I went to a local Christian College. Math is called Business Math - basically how to add and subtract for book keeping. Courses were mostly about the bible, communication courses (necessary to promote propaganda), and basic health courses (how to keep yourself alive with the right foods). Nothing on how to learn new ideas. No college level math courses of any kind. No laboratory sciences necessary to become a lab technician, scientific researcher, skilled designer, or anything else that America desperately needs. Just things necessary to found new churches, promoate propaganda, recruit, pay the bills, and maintain a status quo.

Even tech schools teach more useful concepts. Given what Evangelicals are taught, then they must believe only what they have been told. They have no tools necessary to question. These courses teach how to blindly follow only what has been told and not how to test or question so as to learn newly discovered god's laws. Good luck tryng to change evangelicals. How do you un-brainwash someone when they never learned how to think for themselves?
wolf • Aug 8, 2006 10:05 am
Is the concept that people go to Bible college to learn about the Bible so foreign to you?
tw • Aug 8, 2006 12:31 pm
wolf wrote:
Is the concept that people go to Bible college to learn about the Bible so foreign to you?
Apparently 'learning to think' (a purpose of college) and the bible are mutually exclusive - a classic oxymoron. No wonder they capitalize 'Bible' and lower case 'college'.
KinkyVixen • Aug 8, 2006 12:57 pm
You guys spend an awful lot of time worrying about shit...I for one got tired of listening to the BS about evolution and how evolution was the only thing that brought us here. 'Cause hell, I believe that a big gas explosion caused our hearts to beat and our bodies to be able to house babies...it's just so easy to believe that right? Yeah. Maybe for it's hard for those of you to believe that there is a God and he designed us, because it's harder to prove? Evolution hasn't been proven, not the evolution of man from a tiny organism that got triggered by an explosion, at least not in my eyes. I see how things can evolve, but the evolution of man from an ape? Seriously? Regardless of all that, I don't think I should have to sit in a science class and be taught my teachers view of the world and religion and evolution and be told that if I don't agree with him I will flunk the class. It's ok for him to have his opinion and shove it down my throat (believe it or else), but it's not ok to have my own? Why can't kids be taught both sides, and pick their own? In my opinion it (evolution and intelligent design) shouldn't be taught at all, at least not in school...it should be left at home, like a lot of other issues.
Ibby • Aug 8, 2006 12:58 pm
BA-BIBLE & WORSHIP ARTS
BS-BIBLE & WORSHIP ARTS

Now, ignoring the obvious 'BS' jokes... Bible and Worship is an art? Must be some new usage of the word I wasnt aware of.
Pangloss62 • Aug 8, 2006 4:17 pm
I can understand a BA in Bible & Worship Arts, but a BS is an "Arts" course? That's just fucking stupid.:mad:
Elspode • Aug 8, 2006 5:15 pm
The reason that only Bible stuff is taught in Bible colleges is because religion is a viable career...a viable *profitmaking* career. But...if you teach the preachers and music worship folks Business and Finance, people will look at them more cynically, so you hire those folks from the outside, and then use the college educated religion salespeople to draw in the marks...I mean parishoners, and separate them from their cash.

Yes, I am cynical about organized religion. Why do you ask?
xoxoxoBruce • Aug 8, 2006 7:47 pm
KinkyVixen wrote:
I don't think I should have to sit in a science class and be taught my teachers view of the world and religion and evolution and be told that if I don't agree with him I will flunk the class. It's ok for him to have his opinion and shove it down my throat (believe it or else), but it's not ok to have my own?
Science teachers don't don't teach their opinion, they don't teach religion, either. They teach science. :smack:
tw • Aug 8, 2006 8:14 pm
KinkyVixen wrote:
You guys spend an awful lot of time worrying about shit...
How obvious. Don't think. Have an education equivalent to a monkey. Then proclaim superiority to those monkeys. Then fight wars for the destruction of mankind - and proclaim all is part of god's will. It must be because it must be.

Why was that logic not so obvious? Clearly I waste time trying to become informed. Clearly I spend not enough time appreciating biblical logic.

Be like a monkey. That means I will be superior - god's chosen creature. Clearly I was wasting too much time learning god’s laws that are not in the bible. Foolish me. Even monkeys know better – that man cannot even fly. Why do I waste time learning science when everything necessary to know is already in the bible? Even gallstones can be removed by prayer. Why waste time in a hospital consulting someone trained in science? After all, god tells us so. How do we know? He told Pat Robertson. And clearly god wants man to destroy all those other evil religions - for the glory of god.

Clearly it must be the purpose of man; to do god’s bidding. Cleanse the world of evil people – especially those so silly as to believe other religions. Even the Jews will be converted. Silly me. I did not realize the bible would tell me all just like a fortune teller. Why did I waste time learning things? Kinkyvixen has just made the purpose of life so obvious.

IOW those who know as much science as a monkey are little different from that monkey. Monkeys also don't understand that science - therefore don't discover more of god's laws.
9th Engineer • Aug 9, 2006 1:20 am
Well to be honest the science of evolution is 95% carbon dating and material analysis, the rest has the same science content as studying medieval castles. Determining the age of a rock is science, the Theory of Evolution is history. You can test it with genetics, chemistry and biology, but it isn't in any of those fields. You'd be very supprised at how little respect most real scientists have for all but a few scientists who work with evolution, our research grants depend on us keeping that to ourselves though. It's the same thing you see in global warming, scientists on both sides are pressured to say what their employers want to hear because if not 'the other side wins'. I kid you not. It drives the rest of us absolutly nuts.

Honestly, I'd be happier with a good theory of evolution than proof of god, it's more convenient in my line of work. I deal mostly with implants and neural motor prosthesis. Evolution makes sense to me because I can see the next step, we are driven to devolop non-neuron based computational technology because our flesh has hit it's developmental limit. Our brains have an advantage over computers now only because of parallel computing, in terms of processing speed we are no match. The human brain can perform about 20 million billion calculations persecond, our computers now can match about 60% of that. By around 2013 we will be able to replicate the full potential of the human mind, and by 2030 about a million dollars will buy you a computer as powerful as every human on the planet combined. See the pattern? We won't stay competitive for much longer, so will be forced to either fade away or form a sybiosis with our superior counterparts.

Unfortunatly research on linking our nervous system directly into our computers is behind the times, but not by a serious margin. You may have heard of Matt Nagle, in 2001 he was paralysed from the neck down and cannot breath without assistance or talk at all. Thanks to an implant in his neuromotor cortex he can now type, move a mouse, control his wheelchair and move a robotic arm.
Image

Everything in our bodies is simple electrical interaction, all you have to do is isolate it and control it. Our children will probably think nothing of porting their entire consciousness directly into their computers.
Griff • Aug 9, 2006 8:58 am
Doonesbury
RonBurgundy • Aug 9, 2006 9:44 am
Griff wrote:
Doonesbury



:thumb: Excellent cartoon Griff.
Elspode • Aug 9, 2006 3:12 pm
I don't get it. Why is God making the TB bugs more drug-resistant? Does he hate us and want us all to die?
9th Engineer • Aug 9, 2006 3:13 pm
I wouldn't blame him if he did:rolleyes:
barefoot serpent • Aug 9, 2006 5:32 pm
no, it's his... um His method of thinning the herd.
Pie • Aug 9, 2006 5:44 pm
...then he needs to be a little more selective in whom he culls.
barefoot serpent • Aug 9, 2006 5:52 pm
yes, naturally
tw • Aug 9, 2006 8:16 pm
Elspode wrote:
I don't get it. Why is God making the TB bugs more drug-resistant? Does he hate us and want us all to die?
The minute that god is a 'he' or 'she', then god is only a ‘Superman’; no different from gods worshipped by Greeks or Romans. How does Christianity differ from other pagan religions? Not by much.

Humans have a psychological need for a parent figure. So humans invent a human like god. It worked. From those parables came lessons on life – how all could be productive members of society. Back then, worship of ‘super nanny’ was easier for most to comprehend. In reality, life and death comes from things they did not understand and that are today measured by tools such as statistics and biology. There is no ‘he’ or ‘she’ in god. But those concept exist in pagan religions.
Elspode • Aug 10, 2006 12:21 am
Um...I was joking. I forgot to insert the [sarcasm] tags.

That man has created God in his own murderous, bipolar image is fairly clear to me, TW.
tw • Aug 10, 2006 1:45 am
Elspode wrote:
Um...I was joking. I forgot to insert the [sarcasm] tags.
[FONT="Century Gothic"][SIZE="3"]Apparently I don't quite comprehend the concept? [/SIZE][/FONT]
barefoot serpent • Aug 10, 2006 10:12 am
ahem...
<----- me too
KinkyVixen • Aug 10, 2006 11:01 am
xoxoxoBruce wrote:
Science teachers don't don't teach their opinion, they don't teach religion, either. They teach science. :smack:



Maybe that's how it was in your science class Bruce, but in most of mine, that wasn't the case.
tw • Aug 10, 2006 3:34 pm
KinkyVixen wrote:
Maybe that's how it was in your science class Bruce, but in most of mine, that wasn't the case.
... which means examples are required to demonstrate what is claimed.
barefoot serpent • Aug 10, 2006 3:44 pm
I'm sorry, but I think that some of this is just simple intellectual laziness:
why should I learn anything about science?... it's much easier to believe that God created all of these mysterious things and that's all I need to care about.
KinkyVixen • Aug 10, 2006 3:48 pm
tw wrote:
... which means examples are required to demonstrate what is claimed.



...which means if you're gonna teach one, you should teach both. Or none at all, like I was saying.
rkzenrage • Aug 10, 2006 3:48 pm
More like superstition than laziness.
It takes a lot of work to keep denying a truth that is staring you in the face.
KinkyVixen • Aug 10, 2006 4:45 pm
tw wrote:


blah, blah, blah, snip...
Be like a monkey. That means I will be superior - god's chosen creature. Clearly I was wasting too much time learning god&#8217;s laws that are not in the bible. Foolish me. Even monkeys know better &#8211; that man cannot even fly. Why do I waste time learning science when everything necessary to know is already in the bible? Even gallstones can be removed by prayer. Why waste time in a hospital consulting someone trained in science? After all, god tells us so. How do we know? He told Pat Robertson. And clearly god wants man to destroy all those other evil religions - for the glory of god.
snip, blah, blah, blah...



Did I say don't learn science? No, actually i'm pretty sure that wasn't what I said. Go back and read. I have an opinion and can state it. I have no idea what you're saying because all you say is relentless BS about the same thing. Doesn't matter, I didn't read enough of what you said to even argue with you. All I said, in more words was, if you're gonna teach one, teach 'em both, or don't act like a 2 year old and expect everyone else to believe your horseshit.
glatt • Aug 10, 2006 4:52 pm
KinkyVixen wrote:
if you're gonna teach one, you should teach both. Or none at all, like I was saying.


I'm fine with that, as long as the evolution is taught in a science class, and the creationism/intelligent design is taught in a religion or philosophy class. One of the two is a scientific theory, the other is not.
Ibby • Aug 10, 2006 5:06 pm
Thank you, glatt, thats exactly how I feel too.
Happy Monkey • Aug 10, 2006 5:35 pm
KinkyVixen wrote:
...which means if you're gonna teach one, you should teach both. Or none at all, like I was saying.
What do you mean "both"? If you're talking creation myths, there's at least one per culture on the planet. And they fit very nicely in a comparative religions or philosophy class.

But this isn't science:
tw • Aug 10, 2006 7:12 pm
Ted Koppel would do this when one intentionally did not answer the question. "You did not answer the question so I am going to ask it again":
xoxoxoBruce wrote:
Science teachers don't don't teach their opinion, they don't teach religion, either. They teach science.
KinkyVixen wrote:
Maybe that's how it was in your science class Bruce, but in most of mine, that wasn't the case.
tw wrote:
... which means examples are required to demonstrate what is claimed.
So where are your examples. Where are your examples of science teachers teaching opinions?

Show us examples of science teachers teaching opinions instead of science. This is so easy if true. So easy that I should not have to ask this again. So show us. Show us examples of science teachers teaching opinions.
Ibby • Aug 10, 2006 7:50 pm
I have had teachers give me opinion in class before...

...But they've always said it was opinion and its never been about something we were actually studying, except in English class.
Flint • Aug 10, 2006 9:59 pm
KinkyVixen wrote:
Why can't kids be taught both sides, and pick their own?


Science should be taught in science class. You go to a science class to learn science. That's why they call it a science class. If you don't want to learn science, don't go to a science class. If you need a science class for your degree, then there is probably a reason that you need to learn science, and therefore you should probably learn about science while you are in that science class. What was the other "side" to this ???
9th Engineer • Aug 10, 2006 10:21 pm
Bah, I say just cut the whole section out so everyone will stop bitching. It's probably the most useless chapter of the year anyway and not worth the trouble if you ask me. Since we can't even seem to teach 40% of our students to read at a highschool level we have more pressing issues to deal with. Besides, you need to know genetics (and far more than the Mendelian
type) to even begin to understand the principles. I'll admit I'm confused as to why schoolboards feel it's ok to cut atomic theory and (real) genetics out of the cirriculum because 'students just cant handle that level of material (dumbasses), but insist that they are benefiting from a frantic race through evolutionary theory.
Flint • Aug 11, 2006 12:00 am
Why stop at science? If any part of any class on any subject offends any religious group - that's it! Strike one, you're out!
Happy Monkey • Aug 11, 2006 12:13 am
9th Engineer wrote:
Besides, you need to know genetics (and far more than the Mendelian type) to even begin to understand the principles.
Not really. You need to know genetics to understand the mechanism or the details, but all you need to know to understand the principle is that children are similar, but not identical, to their parents.
9th Engineer • Aug 11, 2006 12:14 am
They did something like that with 'Merchant of Venice', exept when its the PC police banning stuff we have to listen.
9th Engineer • Aug 11, 2006 12:45 am
You need to know genetics to understand the mechanism or the details, but all you need to know to understand the principle is that children are similar, but not identical, to their parents.


That's like saying that someone who knows that magnets stick together understands the EM force, or that a student who can tell you that plants produce energy from the sun understands photosynthesis. Parroting back the end result of a process is not understanding it, without knowing the underlying principles you are preforming the same function as a tape recorder. Something my physics prof told us springs to mind:

Numbers?? Why in the world would I give you numbers to plug into an equation and ask you to solve it? Are you a computer or a student? No, the only thing that matters is manipulating the equations in order to find the relationship between the stuff you know and the stuff you don't know.


He's right you know, a person who can only punch numbers into a calculator has the same level of math proficiency as a trained monkey. And a student who understands nothing beyond "organisms evolve in response to environmental pressures" really doesn't understand anything at all. You cannot understand any principle without knowledge of the mechanism behind it.
Happy Monkey • Aug 11, 2006 12:59 am
9th Engineer wrote:
That's like saying that someone who knows that magnets stick together understands the EM force, or that a student who can tell you that plants produce energy from the sun understands photosynthesis. Parroting back the end result of a process is not understanding it, without knowing the underlying principles you are preforming the same function as a tape recorder.
No, because similar-but-not-identical-children isn't the end result of evolution, it is the assumption going in. You can have a reasonable understanding of evolution just taking that as a given, and working from there.

Not that I'd advocate skipping basic genetics.
Flint • Aug 11, 2006 1:06 am
What should I eat? Well, what were people probably eating while our current design was being shaped by the forces of our environment, and what were those forces likely to consist of? For instance, an automobile was designed to run on gasoline, so I'm not going to put kerosene in it and expect it to run properly. So, by that same basic reasoning, I can understand so many things about my own body simply by grasping the basic concept of evolution. No advanced genetics required. And, hell, I think I just invented evolutionary biology! Wow, good thing I wasn't ripped-the-fuck-off and not taught this crucial concept at the foundation of so many areas of modern scientific thought.
9th Engineer • Aug 11, 2006 1:53 am
Lay it on me Flint, what revelations about your body do you garner from studying eating habits. Please don't feed me that crap about vestigial organs, I laughed out loud in class when my teacher tried to tell us the vermiform appendix has no function in the body. (It's primary function is the manufacturing of B lymphocytes and in the production of IgA antibodies in young children. It is also an absolutly critical part of the endocrine system during the development of the fetus)
xoxoxoBruce • Aug 11, 2006 2:10 am
tw wrote:
... which means examples are required to demonstrate what is claimed.
You want to hear everything I was taught in science class?
I don't have the time nor I expect do you.
Besides, I can't tell you what I was taught, only what I learned. ;)
Flint • Aug 12, 2006 10:47 am
9th Engineer wrote:
Lay it on me Flint, what revelations about your body do you garner from studying eating habits.


That's not what I said. I said I can determine what my eating habits should be, by understadnding evolution.

I can determine what is healthiest for me to eat by understanding what I was designed to eat. I accomplish this by understanding the basic pribciple of evolution, nothing advanced, just the basic principle. By this same token, I can determine what kinds, and what type of exercise are appropriate for an organism of my species. It consists of the daily survival activities that I would have to be participating in, if I weren't sitting in an air-conditioned office and having ready access to nutritionally dense food sources. This example of how evolution enhances your personal decision-making process is the easist to grasp, because it is useful on a day to day basis.

But there are other, perhaps more interesting fields, based on the foundation of understanding evolution. For instance, Evolutionary Psychology - why do we have the type emotional structures we do? And, knowing this, what insights can we gain about ourselves and how we interact with others. Evolution helps us understand that, as well as anything else about oursleves that we explore with that line of reasoning.
Undertoad • Aug 12, 2006 11:31 am
I agree with much of that but

The Caveman Diet

Doesn't make sense to me, because:

Humans are designed to live about 35 years. You're designed to reproduce and then to get out before you're a burden to the tribe. Nature doesn't fight cholesterol or cancer well because there is no point to keeping the aged and infirm around. Just eat a balanced diet and hope for the best.
Flint • Aug 12, 2006 1:28 pm
I haven't heard of the Caveman Diet, or what it consists of. My point was that an understanding of evolution is a powerful critical thinking tool that can be applied in many areas. To "cut the whole section out" of schools, simply because of pressure from religious groups, would be an extreme disservice to the children have a responsibility to educate.
Flint • Aug 12, 2006 3:44 pm
Evangelical Scientists Refute Gravity With New 'Intelligent Falling' Theory
9th Engineer • Aug 12, 2006 8:50 pm
ok, no scientist worth his salt will tell you that the theory of evolution is in the same realm as the theory of gravity. Quantum mechanics would be a better comparison.
Flint • Aug 12, 2006 8:55 pm
But, if religious activists had a problem with gravity, would we "cut the whole section out so everyone will stop bitching" ???
9th Engineer • Aug 12, 2006 9:33 pm
I really couldn't care less about either the bitching or the fact that some people want it pulled. In a well operated public school system where students are being given a detailed, well rounded science education that deals more with actual information than general theories (drawing from my own experience) evolution can play a productive role. But that's not the case and the fault doesn't lie with one set of people. Kids are not getting a good grounding in science before being exposed to more advanced topics like evolution. Take, for instance, kids who are being taught principles of quantum mechanics such as Heisenberg's uncertainty principle without knowing more atomic theory than being able to name the parts of an atom and the four basic forces of the universe. You end up with students who have bizzar and erroneous understandings like "the reason you cannot know both the position and momentum of a particle is that by measuring the state of the particle you change it's velocity by an amount proportional to the accuracy of the first reading". And those are the top 0.1% of the class. The teachers and school board proudly tell everyone what a great education the kids are getting with all this exposure to advanced ideas, but it's just a delusion to impress parents and make themselves out to be more than a glorified daycare.

My point is that the addition of evolution to the highschool cirriculum was not only pointless, but harmful because it displaced topics more vital at that low level (yes, highschool is only a low level of education meant as preparation for higher topics).

American science classes are already the laughing stock of developed countries, but it's not because some of them don't teach evolution. It's serving as a scapegoat for an already pitiful effort on the part of all but a few students and teachers. Learn to walk first (used metaphorically) then run.
Flint • Aug 12, 2006 11:56 pm
Fine points. But allowing religion into the science classroom cannot possibly be a positive step for a failing educational system.
Happy Monkey • Aug 13, 2006 11:31 am
9th Engineer wrote:
American science classes are already the laughing stock of developed countries, but it's not because some of them don't teach evolution.
Which countries that are laughing at our science classes don't have evolution in theirs?
tw • Aug 13, 2006 12:10 pm
9th Engineer wrote:
Kids are not getting a good grounding in science before being exposed to more advanced topics like evolution.
Evolution, like the other sciences taught, is based upon scientific principles of thought - a logical process. We teach science even in junior high school so that you learn how to form a fact - which means both theory consistent with known facts and experimental evidence. Without both, we don't have a science fact.

Evolution meets the criteria of logical through. Intelligent Design does just the opposite. Intelligent design violates how one forms a logical fact.

We were taught the concept of spontaneous reproduction in elementary school science to demonstrate how myths are created - how the principles of science are violated. If you advocate teaching intelligent design to demonstrate how myths are created, then fine. Let's teach how religious extremist propaganda is a lie in science class; how it vioates basic principles of logical thought. Or better, just leave the religion out of the building altogether and avoid any conflicts. Intelligent design violates science principles. Those other sciences demonstrate how science fact is created.

The fact that some still cannot tell the difference demonstrates why the US has dropped to 23 in science and math - the studies that actually honor god. Instead 1/4 of Americans now worship false idols, cannot think logically and therefore are easily manipulated by Rush Limbaugh, and also want Armageddon.