Why Can't Men Say the Things We Women Need to Hear?
For instance...my husband made a comment last night about a "project" of mine. I have things that I make and sell on-line and I ship them in a small box. I prefer to do that because I don't want to take the chance of them getting mangled in the mail by shipping them in a padded envelope. Well, every time he sees me packaging up a shipment he ALWAYS makes the comment "isn't there a different way to ship those?" and I ALWAYS explain why I ship them in a box. So last night when I was boxing up a package he made that comment again. I think I kept my cool pretty well. I said with a smile "you don't like the box...do you." He said "it just seems like overkill to send it in a box. I just thought there might be another less expensive way." I told him, like I've told him time and time again, that it costs the same to send it in a small box as it does to send it in a padded envelope. I said "i've explained over and over why I ship in a box and still every time you see me package an order up you make that comment." Plus...he is the "weed police" as I call it. We'll be in the yard and I'll point out some flowers that are coming up in the flower beds that I've worked so hard on and he'll say they are pretty and point out a weed. Or in the garden I've planted (he usually does the veggie garden, but he has other things going on this year so I'm doing one) I pointed out how the plants are starting to come up and he points out weeds that I need to take care of. It just seems like lots of negatives that I don't need right now. It would be much better to hear "the flowers are sure pretty", "the garden is doing good", and "that's a great way to ship your product."
OK...you want an explanation?
Here's the deal:
He says: "isn't there a different way to ship those?"
You hear: "Thiose silly little things you're shipping out don't deserve an entire box. "
You're thinking "I'm sending out a little piece of myself here and I don't want it to get hurt on the way to somebody I'm hoping will love it."
He meant to say "I care about your project and I want to be helpful; since I'm the practical one maybe I can help you save money."
But he can't even say that....because he's a guy, and it's against the rules for guys.
This is a subject I know more than a little about. You don't know why yet but hang around here long enough and you'll find out. :-)
Wow! MaggieL, pick any prize on the top shelf!
Being able to remember that in the heat of battle is her next task.
OK Maggie...I understand where you are coming from. That Mars Venus mentality. So if guys are so incapable of saying the things we want to hear–as you say "it's not in their rules"–then why do they say all the right things to get us "hooked" in the first place. Then as the years go by and I say "why don't you do the things you used to do"…his reply is "that's not how I am". Excuse me?! If that's not how you are, then who was that guy I fell in love with. Where did he go? Because I want that man back. The one that used to call me at work just to see how my day was going. The one that would make the bed and leave me notes on it. The one who did all these tiny, yet extremely meaningful things that meant so much to me. Where did he go? I'm not saying he has to do that mushy romantic stuff all the time. I'm not living in a fantasy world. I just want him to do the things he used to do that made me feel so special and cherished. Is that too much to ask? Coming from his wife who makes sure he has a clean home, clean clothes, good food on the table, and good food in the fridge for his lunches. This is coming from his wife who, no matter how rough her day was at work, comes home and fixes dinner, tries to be in a good mood for him, tries to be romantic on occassion wheather I am in the mood or not, and asked about and am interested in how his day went. When was the last time myself or any other wife could expect all that from their husband. If they do the slightest little bit of housework, etc. we feel compelled to thank them and make them feel like they just conquered the world.
So tell me....why do men go from being so sweet, concerned, romantic, and caring to inconsiderate, romantics only if it involves sex, with "I'm not doing anything I don't want to do" attitudes.
It's simple: he has what he wants and knows it isn't going away, so he's become complacent. But what can you do about it? You say he used to do little things to make you feel special. What did you do? This isn't a jab at you, but maybe you can jumpstart his romance gene again if you initiate some yourself.
This is coming from his wife who, no matter how rough her day was at work, comes home and fixes dinner, tries to be in a good mood for him, tries to be romantic on occassion wheather I am in the mood or not, and asked about and am interested in how his day went. When was the last time myself or any other wife could expect all that from their husband. If they do the slightest little bit of housework, etc. we feel compelled to thank them and make them feel like they just conquered the world.
If any of this makes you feel resentful, don't do it. It may be easier said than done, since some women are still conditioned from childhood to do these things automatically. But if it doesn't make you happy to do them, it's not doing either of you any good.
Wow! MaggieL, pick any prize on the top shelf!
Yeah, well...unique point of view here :-)
If that's not how you are, then who was that guy I fell in love with. Where did he go? Because I want that man back.
Everybody's so different
I haven't changed
Well...I doubt you're exactly the same person too.
Do you want me to tell you that his priorities and motivations have shifted with his testosterone levels?
Did you expect to be courted for the rest of your life?
That ain't gonna happen.
Or did you just want to complain? :-) That's cool too...this is a good place for it.
I can't imagine how hard it must be to try to maintain a sexual relationship while on a heavy Effexor dose...I've been on both sides of that fence (on lower doses) but fortunately my encounter was only for a few months after the end of a 23 year marriage...I wasn't looking for any nookie at that particular juncture. Wouldn't have been prudent.
So that may be a factor too. Especially when you're..
...tries to be romantic on occassion wheather I am in the mood or not...
Even though his behavior might lead you to think he's too headblind to know the difference when you're "trying to be romantic" as opposed to "actually being romantic"...don't. He probably can...
even if he isn't conciously aware of it.
One important reason guys don't express emotions well isn't that they don't have them. They just don't *know* they do...the part of the brain that does language and concious thought is pretty highly insulated from the part that emotes and empathizes, much more so than in women. This is partly innate wiring and partly hormonal. SNAG (Senitive New Age Guy) is a tough row to hoe.
i would recommend The 5 Love Languages to any and everyone who asks the questions that are puzzling you. Yes, it is by a Christian author and he doesn't hide that, but the book isn't an attempt to convert anyone. It is straight up good interpersonal stuff that may help you here.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=br_ss_hs/104-2981968-6470313?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dblended&keywords=5+love+languages&Go.x=0&Go.y=0&Go=GoThanks, Lookout. I already have that book.
Maggie...
No....of course not...I'm not the same person....nobody is. But, I still continue to do the little things that he likes. I give him backrubs....alot. I make him great dinners, I snuggle with him (sometimes with no response at all from him). I help with his projects, etc. no matter what I'm in the middle of at that moment...I drop what I am doing and help. I compliment him on his projects and accomplishments, etc., etc.
Yes it is hard to be romantic while being on Effexor.
Well...you know there's a word for the kind of woman who ultimately finds herself unable to forgive guys for being guys. The word is "lesbian". :-) Of course, there is the story about the lesbian who finally gave it up because she couldn't handle the emotional demands...so we're all between Scylla and Charybdis there.
Speaking of Scylla and Charybdis, I'm bi, myself. Sometimes I think the only way I find the space for forgive guys for being guys even that much might best be described as "nostalgia". :-)
As long as we're mooting-about self-help/relationship books, here's two quotes from one:
The Seven Dumbest Relationship Mistakes Smart People Make
1) Forcing (rushing) intimacy
2) Expecting your mate to read your mind
3) Playing the martyr
4) Assuming you're always right
5) Rescuing your mate
6) Taking your mate for granted
7) Letting passion die
Four Steps to Healthy Communications
1) Express yourself: "I feel [a specific emotion] whenever you [specify exactly what he does]."
2) State what you want: "I want [a specific behavior]."
3) Ask for a comittment "Will you [give me what I want--be even more specific]?"
4) Outline the consequences of your mate's reluctance or refusal to commit himself to change: "If not, I will [state specifically what you will do]."
Get the Mars/Venus book. It really explains the hows and whys of the whole communications style differences thing, in very easy to understand terms.
We'll be in the yard and I'll point out some flowers that are coming up in the flower beds that I've worked so hard on and he'll say they are pretty and point out a weed.
Did you respond with, "Oh dear, pull that out will you?"
Or in the garden I've planted (he usually does the veggie garden, but he has other things going on this year so I'm doing one) I pointed out how the plants are starting to come up and he points out weeds that I need to take care of.
When he did the veggie garden, was it always perfect? Tell him the weeds help retain the moisture and feed the soil with nitrogen. Or that you'll go fix some lemonade while he takes care of them.
It just seems like lots of negatives that I don't need right now. It would be much better to hear "the flowers are sure pretty", "the garden is doing good", and "that's a great way to ship your product."
Mind over matter. If you don't mind, it don't matter. If you do mind, tell him.....in no uncertain terms. Don't hint, don't beat around the bush, straight out tell him.
He may be shocked, he may even get pissed.....but he'll get over it, believe me.;)
Get the Mars/Venus book. It really explains the hows and whys of the whole communications style differences thing, in very easy to understand terms.
At this point I get the sense there's a lot more gone awry here than the usual Mars v. Venus stuff.
I'd start implementing those "steps to healthy communications" from my earlier posts...because when it's gotten to the point of venting to [relative] strangers online the relationship talk is failing utterly.
Strangers? We's family. :D
Strangers? We's family. :D
"[relative] strangers". Our welcoming attitude aside, if people on a BBS she joined last week are not strangers relative to her husband, something's even wronger than I thought...
Y'gotta admit, we're all pretty strange, here...
"[relative] strangers".
You got that right. All my relatives are a little strange.
Sometimes its best to just vent to "Relative Strangers" that way you can say ABSOLUTELY whatever you want without real repercussions. Many times you will also get the responses you NEED not just the ones you WANT. Its amazing how you can tailor your vent to a friend to make them sympathetic to your stance whereby here "In da Cellar" you will be told in no uncertain terms exactly what the real deal is. If you are right you'll know and if you're wrong - boy will Bruce let you know ;)
Tell him how it makes you feel, exactly how it makes you feel.
Then tell him to stop saying it.
If he doesn't like the weeds he can pull em'.
At the same time, it is true that no one can expect to be courted for life, that is just silly, unless you put-out the same amount as you did & in the same way when you were being courted while overlooking as much too.
Sometimes its best to just vent to "Relative Strangers" that way you can say ABSOLUTELY whatever you want without real repercussions. Many times you will also get the responses you NEED not just the ones you WANT. Its amazing how you can tailor your vent to a friend to make them sympathetic to your stance whereby here "In da Cellar" you will be told in no uncertain terms exactly what the real deal is. If you are right you'll know and if you're wrong - boy will Bruce let you know ;)
Well...I did say this was a good place to vent if that's what you wanted to do. But sometimes venting gets in the way of doing important communicating in a relationship because it temporarily relieves the pressure without actually improving the situation. External validation is well and good as far as it goes, but it's not a substitute for doing the hard work.
True but it can be a way to check if you're completely whacked before going ahead with the work.
If you are right you'll know and if you're wrong - boy will Bruce let you know
Not exactly, I'll let you know what I think, but that doesn't mean I'm right. You have to evaluate that for yourself. All I promise, is to be honest, but it's still an opinion. :D
"Not exactly, I'll let you know what I think, but that doesn't mean I'm right. You have to evaluate that for yourself. All I promise, is to be honest, but it's still an opinion."
Sorry Bruce - as usual you are correct - I made a poor choice of words.
Maggie, I never meant to imply that it was a substitute for anything. I do think that is can be used as a trial balloon which can avoid one from having to needlessly enter into conflict management.
"[relative] strangers". Our welcoming attitude aside, if people on a BBS she joined last week are not strangers relative to her husband, something's even wronger than I thought...
I lurked on this board for a while before starting to post. I found that this place was a refreshing change from the other boards I hang out at.
I've lways considered myself a bit of an oddball, I always go against the grain.
In that respect, I feel somewhat at home here, and at the same time, I'm finding myself in unchartered waters, 'cause sometime I'm not sure what to say.
:cool:
I often tell her exactly what she wants to hear. When I get caught it gets ugly.
Maggie, I never meant to imply that it was a substitute for anything.
Nor did I meant to imply I thought you implied it...but I've certainly seen people use it as a substitute. I think that's one reason we see online relationships supplant face-to-face ones so often.
I've lways considered myself a bit of an oddball, I always go against the grain.
In that respect, I feel somewhat at home here, and at the same time, I'm finding myself in unchartered waters, 'cause sometime I'm not sure what to say. :cool:
You can't please everyone so you gotta please yourself.
Just say what you're thinking and if someone disagrees, so what? If you're being honest you probably won't come off like an asshole. And if you do, someones is sure to tell you.:lol2:
When I read the first post in this thread it made me think of my brother. There were only the two of us kids in our family and life wasn't always grand, but it was pretty good most of the time. We were lucky.
The thing that reminds me of my brother in the first post is that in every aspect of life, he sees the negatives eg weeds (a particular pet hate of my brothers) or spending too much on postage or just posting stuff wrongly according to his particular set of rules.
I would like to say that I don't believe this particular school of thought has anything to do with anyone's sex. It's got to do with each individual school of thought. Where some people like to see the positives, others like to see the negatives.
Being a positive person myself, I find it difficult to understand why people prefer to feel negatively about things. What benefit can there possibly be? Does it give them a sense of superiority to point out that you're not perfect? I think perhaps yes. At least, that's what Dr Phil would say I'm sure. Maybe it's just plain jealousy that causes someone to only see the negative things and never comment on the positives.
Fortunately for me, the man in my life is very supportive and positive about everything I do, unless it's something stupid, in which case, I probably don't need him to tell me that anyway. ;)
...I would like to say that I don't believe this particular school of thought has anything to do with anyone's sex. It's got to do with each individual school of thought. Where some people like to see the positives, others like to see the negatives...
I think that this is spot on. It's down to personalities and points of view MUCH more than gender.
You know, I wonder too;
Why do women need to hear those things men don't? :confused:
You know, I wonder too;
Why do women need to hear those things men don't? :confused:
For me...I need to hear those things to know that everything is alright. It makes me feel appreciated when he does the things he used to do when we first met. And I hate it when people say..."oh, guys aren't like that. They can't express their true emotions." That's a bunch of bull...because they sure know how to say and do all the right things when they are trying to get us to date them, marry them, have sex with them, etc. In the Mars Venus book it says that Women need to feel cherished and men need to feel needed. When he says loving things and such it makes me feel cherished.
They can't express their true emotions." That's a bunch of bull...because they sure know how to say and do all the right things when they are trying to get us to date them, marry them, have sex with them, etc.
That's not expressing true emotions, that's using what you want, as a tool to get what we want. ;)
That's not expressing true emotions, that's using what you want, as a tool to get what we want. ;)
Whatever
Whatever
The rudest thing anyone can ever say.
Ironic in this thread.
My wife and I talked about this... she said that she would hate it if I still played the "games of dating still" she much prefers to know me as I really am and how I truly feel. Her "friend, lover and true companion" not some guy "trying to impress her".
Guess she grew out of the neediness.
I'm very fortunate.
That tells me goldencomfort1968 is not interested in the truth. She just wants to whine about men. Pity.:right:
I share more of how I actually feel with my current SO than I ever did with my ex. My current SO appreciates my openness and honesty a great deal. Me? I feel akward telling her a lot of how I feel and it used to make me feel somewhat "less a man" at first and now I fel more empowered and free knowing that I can express my emotions without repercussions, being looked down upon, or less "manly". Thats my biggest gripe - that men apparently aren't supposed to behave a certain way and then we are judged negatively for doing so.
The rudest thing anyone can ever say.
Ironic in this thread.
My wife and I talked about this... she said that she would hate it if I still played the "games of dating still" she much prefers to know me as I really am and how I truly feel. Her "friend, lover and true companion" not some guy "trying to impress her".
Guess she grew out of the neediness.
I'm very fortunate.
I'm sorry...my intentions were not to be rude. That comment was simply out of frustration of not being able to get my point across. I feel that I have been missunderstood and that all I want to do is "whine" and "complain" about men. I don't feel that is true. I'm not looking for my husband to constantly cater to me or constantly be in a romantic mood showering me with flowers, love and affection. I'm simply wishing he'd do more of the loving gestures that he used to do rather than acting the way he is now and has been for quite some time. I'm simply expressing how much I miss that and how that made me feel appreciated and how his actions now make me feel unappreciated.
For instance...and a small example...last summer I had to have an emergency appendectomy. I had surgery late at night and was released late the following day. My husband stayed the night with me in a recliner next to my hospital bed. That was so sweet and caring of him. I really felt truly loved. He stopped at the pharmacy on our way home so he could pick up my prescriptions, etc. He helped get me settled and took good care of me for a couple days. This was over the weekend because my surgery was on a Thursday night and I was released Friday late afternoon. Then when he went back to work everything changed. He got a horrible attitude. Under Dr's orders, I couldn't drive for a week. I was instructed to move around as much as possible but to be sure not to overdue it or I would aggrivate everything and end up back in surgery. So, I made a dinner with what I had on hand at home and with that we were able to have leftovers for a couple days. One evening I made something different out of the leftovers so that he could just warm it up when he got home late from having to put in some extra hours at work. When he got home, he looked in the fridge disguisted. Stormed out of the house with barely saying a word. Meanwhile I'm left there wondering what was wrong and what I had done. He comes back home in a few minutes with all the makings for pizza. And at 8:00 at night he started making pizza. Never once did he ask if I was doing OK, if we needed anything because he was going to the store, or if I had dinner yet. I was very hurt and upset and trying to get well on top of all of this. He couldn't understand why I was so upset. I tried to explain to him and asked why he didn't eat what I had already made for him and he yelled at me (his wife...a few days into recovering from surgery) and said "I've had chicken ALL WEEK!!" Even though I had put the effort out to make it into something different when I didn't feel well.
So, yes...I guess I'm still a little bitter about that and other times he's hurt my feelings. Maybe I am complaining....I feel I have that right. And NO this incident I just described isn't the only one...It's just an example of many that have occured lately. There was another time after I came home from the hospital following a bout with kidney stones that he just left me to fend for myself. Yet, when he had hernia surgery, I was there for him (yes, because I wanted to be there for him) and made sure he had whatever he needed.
I agree with you, this is wrong, but as far removed from romance as the problem as something can be.
This is a common courtesy/caring issue... wayyyy beyond lack of communication.
We learned long ago, those whom it is easiest to forget to be polite to are those you need to be the most polite to, the most often.
An excuse me for a burp in bed goes a LONG damn way.
Please pardon me for saying so, but it is time for marriage counseling... trust me, I know.
The other side of this is... what do you think you can do to make him understand how he is making you feel? Obviously other than telling him without guilt trips, yelling or crying.
So, yes...I guess I'm still a little bitter about that and other times he's hurt my feelings.
This is one of the reasons men don't share their feelings. Women don't let anything go, they remember every slight, real and imagined, including feelings shared they don't want to hear.
I realize that's a broad brush and there are exceptions, BUT, I've seen it happen so much, to me and others, I firmly believe it.
I've had statements I supposedly made, quoted to me out of context, 22 fucking years later.:smack:
This is a common courtesy/caring issue... wayyyy beyond lack of communication.
Those are all bound up together. If communication is successful, courtesy and caring follow--and vice versa; you have to care to want to communicate.
Oh, the other possible outcome of sucessful communication is homicde. Biut that's rarer :-).
I agree with bruce, that is one problem I have had often... things thrown at me that I had completely forgotten had even happened.
Maybe it's his job that's the problem? He sounds like his job has him waaay too high-strung, he needs to mellow ouuuutttt...
Oh, the other possible outcome of sucessful communication is homicde. Biut that's rarer :-).
Not much consolation to the homicidee. :lol:
I agree with bruce, that is one problem I have had often... things thrown at me that I had completely forgotten had even happened.
Maybe it's his job that's the problem? He sounds like his job has him waaay too high-strung, he needs to mellow ouuuutttt...
My wife knows better... I refuse to let those bother me.
Once an apology has been accepted, the deed is dead, period, end of story.
If someone throws something up in my face that they have accepted an apology for it is a game and is to be treated as such, nothing more.
Also, I said something earlier "how he makes you feel"... that is a figure of speech.
No one can "make" anyone feel anything, ever.
How one chooses to accept/take something dictates how they feel about what is said. It is choice, always.
Those are all bound up together. If communication is successful, courtesy and caring follow--and vice versa; you have to care to want to communicate.
Oh, the other possible outcome of sucessful communication is homicde. Biut that's rarer :-).
I don't agree at all, one can communicate screw-you my slave perfectly successfully, and that seems to be going on.
My wife knows better... I refuse to let those bother me.
Once an apology has been accepted, the deed is dead, period, end of story.
If someone throws something up in my face that they have accepted an apology for it is a game and is to be treated as such, nothing more.
And what if you haven't apologized because you didn't even know it happened?
They remember every slight, real and
imagined, and don't always say something at the time, but quietly slide it into their quiver. ;)
They remember every slight, real and imagined, and don't always say something at the time, but quietly slide it into their quiver. ;)
Very poetic...
Just a quick question here - Why can't women hear what we actually say instead of what they think we said? I hate to be chauvinistic, and maybe its cause I've only had realationships with women since I'm straight, but it really bugs me when I say one thing and something completely different is heard.
Is it me, women, SO's in general or what?
What we desired from a man:
*
I wanted to be cherished and adored.
*
I wanted to feel his strength and masculinity.
*
I wanted a great lover who loves to please me.
*
I wanted to feel respected.
*
I wanted to be gathered up in his strong arms.
*
I wanted him to tell me what he's feeling.
*
I wanted him to feel like I'm the best thing in his life.
*
I wanted him to love me with all his heart.
I just watched Brokeback Mountain and found it interesting. Didn't find any solutions. They acted like a normal hetro couple....same problems. LOL
It's like getting a dog or goldfish. You know what they can and cannot do. A man seems fairly limited, not as much as a goldfish maybe....but still....
Actually they may be more like a cat than a dog even.....aloof, never owned, taking what they need and not offering a lot in return.
NO, NOT EVERY MAN!!! I KNOW....I KNOW......
LOL
I believe they are only truly happy when out with guys doing guy stuff.
The rest is just a necessary evil to them, with maid service.
I apologize to any man here who is a loving, giving man.....very few and far between. JMHO.
And what if you haven't apologized because you didn't even know it happened?
They remember every slight, real and imagined, and don't always say something at the time, but quietly slide it into their quiver. ;)
Then it's not my problem.
I wanted to feel his strength and masculinity.
You wanted the romance novel man, but when he acted like a real man you ridiculed him and emasculated him.
Just a quick question here - Why can't women hear what we actually say instead of what they think we said? I hate to be chauvinistic, and maybe its cause I've only had realationships with women since I'm straight, but it really bugs me when I say one thing and something completely different is heard.
Is it me, women, SO's in general or what?
Man, I cannot tell you how many times I have said "... but what did I
actually say? Because, what I actually said is what I mean, always. Putting words in my mouth pisses-me-OFF!" Does she
hear it? What do you think?
I communicate and tell exactly how I feel... having it complicated and twisted is a game to me.
What I say is what I mean.
If I am going to lie, I would do it anyway... acting like everything I say is a lie is not going to trick it out of me. It is just going to make me not trust you & not want to say a damn thing to you, ever.
As for my wife, she has actually gotten a lot better recently... it has taken a long time. She still lapses though. If you don't trust him, why be with him? Don't get it.
They remember every slight, real and imagined, and don't always say something at the time, but quietly slide it into their quiver. ;)
I know for me, the reason that this happens is that I HATE confrontations. I try to have everyone like me, so if I am upset, I might just let it slide. Lately, I have been trying to let people know when they upset me - especially my BF. I think that the reason that things are brought up out of the blue is because even if you don't say anything, you might still think about it - especially if it is done over and over until you just can't take it anymore.
(That is probably just me though)
Then it does not slide... it lies in wait.
I wanted to feel his strength and masculinity.
You wanted the romance novel man, but when he acted like a real man you ridiculed him and emasculated him.
Yes. I did that with my last relationship. He took the brunt of my frustration with men, and I took the brunt of his frustration with women and life. He told me so.
Now we are both apart and too stubborn to make the move. So we will never meet again.
This one was for the gipper, I guess. We both have tried so hard with others, you just have to smash the glass sometimes and suffer the consequences.
He is on my mind every day. But he is the toughest son of a b*tch I've ever met and I'm not sure where his head is at these days.....I know he refuses to take his anti-depressents and it shows.
But you try to play it their way.....meet them in the ring....go a few rounds with them without being knocked out.....they get mad.
Then it's over.
You have to be the weak one, the fool. Then they have won. But once they win, they lose interest.
So what does a woman do with a strong macho man? I prefer them to others.....not a true bad boy, but a real man.
I do love men.
It seems it's a fool's game.
For now, I'm on the bench.
LOL
:-(
LOL
:-(
Golden.....I commisserate with you. I commisserate with him. There are 2 sides to every story. We just don't know how to play nicely together. Damn!
Man, I've just decided "If y'can't beat 'em join 'em". I'm just as bad (or just as good at, depending on how you look at it) as my girlfriend at that whole twisting words thing and stuff. Its kinda funny that I act more like a girl than a guy when it comes to relationships, sometimes. I'm still whipped like you would not believe, though...
I always said this: put estrogen in the water supply along with the flouride; soften up the men, stop wars.....if they grow breasts so be it, they can play with them.
:rotflol:
What we desired from a man:
*
I wanted
*
I wanted
*
I wanted
*
I wanted
*
I wanted
*
I wanted
*
I wanted
*
I wanted
What did he want? :litebulb:
Yes. I did that with my last relationship. He took the brunt of my frustration with men, and I took the brunt of his frustration with women and life. He told me so.
Now we are both apart and too stubborn to make the move. So we will never meet again.
This one was for the gipper, I guess. We both have tried so hard with others, you just have to smash the glass sometimes and suffer the consequences.
He is on my mind every day. But he is the toughest son of a b*tch I've ever met and I'm not sure where his head is at these days.....I know he refuses to take his anti-depressents and it shows.
But you try to play it their way.....meet them in the ring....go a few rounds with them without being knocked out.....they get mad.
Then it's over.
You have to be the weak one, the fool. Then they have won. But once they win, they lose interest.
So what does a woman do with a strong macho man? I prefer them to others.....not a true bad boy, but a real man.
I do love men.
It seems it's a fool's game.
For now, I'm on the bench.
LOL
:-(
LOL
:-(
Golden.....I commisserate with you. I commisserate with him. There are 2 sides to every story. We just don't know how to play nicely together. Damn!
She has to be willing not to be let in.
Basically it is a relationship with a stranger.
What did he want? :litebulb:
1st and foremost: A slave. Someone to worship him. Told me to bleach my hair blonde because he loves blondes. Said my job would be to deal with his ex to get custody visits with his young daughter. Told me what my jobs would be there if I moved to S.D. to be his wife.
Planned our wedding at Sturgis this summer. He was controlling, bossy, demanding, laconic, moody, withdrawn....with an initial few weeks of being "so nice and loving" that sucked me in.
I said whoa.....we don't even like each other right now....scrap the wedding.
I said if we can't fix things....it's no good.
He never forgave me and never tried to fix it. He was just mad. He just tormented me from that day on. He is hard as nails.
He wanted love but didn't know how to get it, except for the first few weeks. Like Golden said....WTF? How can they turn it on and off like a faucet? Why do they feel once they have you hooked it's a whole new ball game?
grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr......
That's the way the cookie crumbles.....unfortunately.
We still love each other in our dysfunctional way. I wish we were doing the Sturgis thing in some ways....there is a Dom/sub thing going on which I love.
But he pushed the envelope too far. It should be only like that in the bedroom. He wanted to rule over me all the time.
He told me it's partly due to his German heritage....and his sister agrees and is the same. LOL
He is a farmer, builds motorcycles, has a hunting lodge. I got my hunting licences for birds, small game and big game many years ago but had babies and didn't go. He is the idea man for business, I do accounting. He is Dom, I'm a sub.
But a fiesty sub.
We seemed like a good fit. But he didn't play the game correctly.
I was willing. He pushed too far.
He will never call me. He is too stubborn and mean. If I call him he will torture me by saying he cares then not talking and withdrawing.
Logic says forget him. I'm working on that. But the dream of us being together doing stuff we both love is a hard dream to see die. He has health problems and expects now to be alone forever, he says. He would rather punish me than be kind.
His choice.
Sounds to me like your list and his are diametrically opposed.
Actually your first list and your expressed desires in this post don't jib well, in my mind.
Like Golden said....WTF? How can they turn it on and off like a faucet? Why do they feel once they have you hooked it's a whole new ball game?
The problem with Golden's statement is the word they. Generalizations are never a help when dealing a specific situation.:headshake
Sounds to me like your list and his are diametrically opposed.
Tell me about it!
We are in a control struggle. I want what I want, he wants what he wants.
We both want happiness and to have lots of sex.
But it isn't gonna happen.....
Not with each other. We haven't talked for a month and half now.
In my quiet, mousey accountant way....I'm just as strong as he is. I'm sure he is surprised. He promised me a prenup that would compensate me for relocating back to Canada if we failed. He was so sure he had me bagged, tagged.
He is being a poor loser.
But I've been through enough unhappy relationships. However, I am freaking bored to tears with a "normal" guy....they just seem prissy. Before him, I was going to marry a long-haul trucker from Texas and we were going to drive team, either expedite or hot-shot, whatever paid the most per mile. Before that I married an artist who was a severe alcoholic who relapsed when he moved to Canada and was removed from my home by the police for assaulting me.
I did enjoy the adventures with each of them. No regrets.
I accept responsibility for my situation and my quandry.
LOL
I'm a nerd with a big taste for excitement. I keep getting burned. It's my fault.
IF ONLY THERE WAS A MAN AROUND WHO WAS MACHO, TOUCH, RUGGED, INTO GUNS, HUNTING, ETC. BUT ALSO KIND AND GENEROUS....A BIG BRUTE OF A MAN, BUT A SANTA CLAUS AT HEART.
LOL
I know I will never find the man of my dreams. Boohooooo.....
:rotflol:
End of story.
From both of you, just sounds like a lot of games.
Sorry.
But, it just seems like neither of you were there for each other, just there for what you could get out of it.
From both of you, just sounds like a lot of games.
Sorry.
But, it just seems like neither of you were there for each other, just there for what you could get out of it.
He admittedly is a 'passive aggressive personality'.
I must do it his way or he would not speak.
I did play the game of trying to knock that stubbornness out of him, but lost, but for the best.
But with Golden, she is being hurt by the male psyche too.
We don't understand how you guys can be so different and why we can't reach you with reason. And you don't relate to us. It's not rocket science is it? LOL
Mind boggling.....
Yeah, not all men, I know.
;-)
I also admit I'm hurt, disappointed and bitter now. But working on forgiving him. For my sake as well as his.
Forgive him, but stay away.
Don't you hate it when all you get is more of the same?
No progress. I hate no progress. I hate circles.
We have to break those circles.
Funny you say that, I feel the same way, I want logic in my relationship.
If you want something just say it. Or. I'm not a mind reader. Or. How did you get that out of what I said?
Goes both ways.
I say exactly what I mean and every woman I have ever been with has had trouble with that, they always want to read a bunch of crap into everything, and they never tell me exactly what they mean. I'm supposed to "just know shit". Games... I will not play them. I've told every one I've dated that and they always said the same thing "oh, me too, hate them" and commenced to play.
Confusing.
Women not behaving perfectly??????? Pshawwwww..... LOL
Hey, what can I say?
OK, we both need to be true to our gender. Men need to be MEN and women need to be WOMEN. When we try to blend the waters we end up with muck.
So do we not co-habit? Just conjucal visits? Well, men need the maid service and women want their cars and lawns taken care of.
So maybe if we all had a way of doing that shit, the housekeeping and mowing, we wouldn't need each other????
LOL
PS...another big factor with my recent ex is that we lived 2,000 miles apart and he wan't happy that I didn't drop my life to run to his side as I had still some mothering left to do. We were going to get married in Sturgis, then I wanted him to wait a year, with visits in between. That made him mad. He wanted the maid, nurse, sex partner instantly. I was pressured.
Anyway, big fucking disaster. But I wish it had worked out. Maybe in a year or two we will talk again. Not likely. I'll talk and he won't. LOL
What games did your gals play? Were they divas? Did you feel manipulated?
Were they honest? Were they controlling? Did they cheat on you?
How did you find less than perfect females? Sounds more like a myth to me...
hehe....
My life is better for finding the Cellar...!
After a rather messy night out with a male friend last night, he sent me a couple of texts with various comments about being a better friend and helping me get my life back on track.
My immediate reaction (because of certain things not worth explaining here) was to read far too much into it. I wanted to reply saying, "Right so what you're saying...." or "What you really mean is..." I also focussed totally on how the text made me feel and blamed him for this.
Luckily I decided to sleep on it before replying, and in the morning remembered this thread. I read the texts again exactly as they were written, taking them at face value. What he wrote wasn't offensive or insulting. He was advising me as a friend because he cares.
I avoided a completely pointless row and a couple of days wasted in sulking.
Well I must say MsSparkie you said:
I wanted to be cherished and adored.
I wanted to feel his strength and masculinity.
I wanted a great lover who loves to please me.
I wanted to feel respected.
I wanted to be gathered up in his strong arms.
I wanted him to tell me what he's feeling. When he did - Did you listen Did you actually hear what he said or did you infer and assume what you thought he said? More so did you hear just the parts that you wanted to hear and miss the rest of what he said?
I wanted him to feel like I'm the best thing in his life. How did you know what he was or wasn't feeling???? Perhaps he felt this way and you totally misconstrued what he said and how he said it.
I wanted him to love me with all his heart. How do you know he wasn't?
To me its more like we speak different languages at times and cannot seem to find the common ground to actually LISTEN to what we each are saying. Men tend to be rather blunt and more direct than women - very literal in their communication. Women, on the other hand, tend to be very VERY vague and hint around as to what they mean assuming their man is going to pick up on what they really mean without the woman actually saying it. This difference in communication is, to me, the root cause of more fights, arguments, frustrations and eventually break-ups than anything else. It always comes out to "He doesn't understand me" or "He doesn't listen to me." I think the best advice I was ever given was for all of us to actually say what you are thinking and don't assume your partner is a mind reader.
Men are typically very simple beings. Much more like dogs than cats - in that we are loyal to a fault, yet when harassed - - - -bite deep.
One thing I notice about that list... You want to feel his masculinity, but yet that masculinity is part of the problem, if I'm not mistaken. Part of masculinity is that dumb, selfishly idiotic self-righteousness and stubbournness.
Jesus H. Christ in a chicken basket!
This string makes me sooooooo glad I'm single. Men, women, they each become really petty and insecure when they stay together to long. I'd rather be alone, really. When I look at that ever-growing "Self Help" section at the book store, or read strings like this one, I have to laugh. And to think it all started with some box vs. envelopes conflict.
....
I wanted him to tell me what he's feeling.[/B] When he did - Did you listen Did you actually hear what he said or did you infer and assume what you thought he said? More so did you hear just the parts that you wanted to hear and miss the rest of what he said?
I wanted him to feel like I'm the best thing in his life. How did you know what he was or wasn't feeling???? Perhaps he felt this way and you totally misconstrued what he said and how he said it.
I wanted him to love me with all his heart. How do you know he wasn't?
He stopped talking. The silent treatment. There was no getting him to warm up after I said this relationship needs lots of work, but I want it to work.
He just froze into an iceman.
There is he alone, pleased with his strength.
It's a good thing it didn't go ahead, really. It would not have lasted. The slightest infraction on my part and I would be shot down hard and ignored. He enjoyed my begging but it just made me angrier that nothing could reach him.
So I stopped.
He told me not to take it personally once....he is aloof with everyone, he said. Aloof is a gross understatement.
But he is capable of sweet loving charm....but seems only for one short burst.
He used to be a repo man, payday loan officer.....never had a loan go bad except one lady who didn't pay him $500 about 10 years ago....it still made him mad. He couldn't let go.
Let's just say he isn't easy to get along with.....
But he is big and strong and brave......and....so masculine.
Too bad you can't have have that with a sweet kind heart.
Where is Golden????????? How are you doing dear?
Don't let me hog your thread....
My life is better for finding the Cellar...!
After a rather messy night out with a male friend last night, he sent me a couple of texts with various comments about being a better friend and helping me get my life back on track.
My immediate reaction (because of certain things not worth explaining here) was to read far too much into it. I wanted to reply saying, "Right so what you're saying...." or "What you really mean is..." I also focussed totally on how the text made me feel and blamed him for this.
Luckily I decided to sleep on it before replying, and in the morning remembered this thread. I read the texts again exactly as they were written, taking them at face value. What he wrote wasn't offensive or insulting. He was advising me as a friend because he cares.
I avoided a completely pointless row and a couple of days wasted in sulking.
Warm fuzzy!
Now, if only we could get the terrorists to listen to us. :D
lol bruce
Well, For me it isn't what I want to hear it is what I don't want to hear.
I don't want to be put down or played games with. I don't want to hear disfunctional need . I like the up front approach. I don't want to be made to feel anything just accepted for who I am as much as I accept another for who they are.
I don't really believe in romantic love. I believe a person can be romanced but it is part of an expression but it's not actually reality. To be taken some place out of oneself for a short amount of time is a very good thing. It's bonding but the illusion is not suppose to last. Then it's business as usual. I do think men get mixed messages at times. I've never asked a guy to be a 'manly romantic' Only that they are straight thinkers basically.
...
To me its more like we speak different languages at times and cannot seem to find the common ground to actually LISTEN to what we each are saying. Men tend to be rather blunt and more direct than women - very literal in their communication. Women, on the other hand, tend to be very [COLOR="red"]VERY vague and hint around as to what they mean assuming their man is going to pick up on what they really mean without the woman actually saying it. [/COLOR]This difference in communication is, to me, the root cause of more fights, arguments, frustrations and eventually break-ups than anything else. It always comes out to "He doesn't understand me" or [COLOR="Red"]"He doesn't listen to me." [/COLOR]I think the best advice I was ever given was for all of us to actually say what you are thinking and don't assume your partner is a mind reader.
Men are typically very simple beings. Much more like dogs than cats - in that we are loyal to a fault, yet when harassed - - - -bite deep.
Man! You hit it right there... I can't "listen" to something she never said!!!:mad:
Somehow I lost this thread. I'm an admitted idiot. Then again i'm only a guy. o me it seems that the longer you know a woman the more the expect you to "hear things that weren't said". I have a very good memory and we "discuss" this often. We both end up laughing about it, but its still something to watch. I love her very much and listen to her every word - intently. She knows that and sometimes treies to sli an "oh I forgot by me" BUZZZZZZZ Wrong answer!! that bird won't fly. I think its cause her men in the past were insensitive and didn't hear her. She's learning thats not the case with me. Its an evolving thing.
Listen, but also comprehend....
Comprehension isn't a problem if you don't beat around the bush. :headshake
Men don't have the bush to beat around - maybe thats why we are so much more direct than our female counterparts.
You guys tend to beat around our bush.....
I like how none of the ladies chimed in on the "can't listen to something never said" theme that was running there for a bit... ironic that.
Just got in the doghouse for a bit by saying "is this one of those things I was supposed to just know?" the other day... later she joked that I was correct.
Ain't that the truth! I called my girl on a couple over the weekend and she finally admitted that she hadn't "really said" what she meant and the argument just died. We are being almost anal about making sure there are no unspoken issues that could cause problems later on and it seems to working magnificently.
Mah girl knows better than to try to play that game with me, cause I'm as good as if not better than her at it. I can practically read her mind, I know her so well, and I'm good enough with words to make sure I say enough to get her with it later but not enough to be blunt. In other words, when she tries to play that game with me... I get her back and totally pwn her at it.
I just shut down until the game is over.
There is what Is and there is not what is Not, tell me what you mean or want... if you don't know, then say "I don't know". It's simple. Ego has nothing to do with it.
It is what she asks of me, it is only appropriate.
As soon as any woman starts playing mind games where they're angery at you about something they haven't said, leave. Just-don't-go-there. There is not more reason for a woman to pull that crap than a guy, and anyone who does has some serious maturing to do. Sorry, this is a bit of a touchy subject. My best friend was burned badly by this kind of chic so I'm on a permanent no-tollerance streak for flighty bullshit.
After dating for several months my boyfriend walked to the front door to leave and work on his motorcycle. He looked up at the clock and said "I'll be back at 11:30 or so." I said "I'll see you, when I see you."
At 11:29 he walked in and said he came home merely due to curiosity for the definition of "I'll see you, when I see you." and I said this:
Don't leave and tell me you'll be back at X time, because if you aren't home by X time, then I may worry, get upset and my mind wanders. If you said "I'm leaving," I will always say my see you when I see you because you'll get home, I'll see you, you'll see me and no one ever gets pissed.
This to him, was great! Then he said "But what if YOU get tired of waiting for me or I don't come home?" and I said...."Then You'll see me when you see me."
We've been engaged seven years and have yet to miscommunicate where we are out of respect.
As far as the rest of the goobly gook? Say what you mean or tick a lock. :3eye:
They can't express their true emotions." That's a bunch of bull...because they sure know how to say and do all the right things when they are trying to get us to date them, marry them, have sex with them, etc.
That's not expressing true emotions, that's using what you want, as a tool to get what we want. ;)
I believe that people say what you want to HEAR if they want something in return - eg. to tell you that you're beautiful to get you in bed. But they will tell you what they want to SAY or DO something nice because they like/love you and MEAN it. You can usually tell the difference.
In my experience men don't often think about love or relationships they are in or not express their feelings to you not because they don't love you but because they think you already know and don't feel the need to tell you all the time. Maybe a reminder to his face that you feel more secure in the relationship if he tells you everyday that he loves you or that you're appreciated. People can't read our minds whomever they are, tell them how you feel in your situation and what they can do to be more appreciative of you. Ask them to pay more attention to the way they address you. And show him that you :heartpump and appreciate him, maybe by doing something special other than cooking his dinner or making his sandwiches.
..... and he yelled at me (his wife...a few days into recovering from surgery) and said "I've had chicken ALL WEEK!!" Even though I had put the effort out to make it into something different when I didn't feel well.
....And NO this incident I just described isn't the only one...It's just an example of many that have occured lately.
I don't know of exact conversations you and your husband have had on any subject from what I've read so far, I would think that maybe he's unhappy for whatever reason - relationship, work etc. - and doesn't know how to tell you or may not think you need/want to know. Might be worth encouraging him to talk, and only talk about the issues at hand, don't get off track with the conversation or let it turn into argueing or yelling. If it does then walk away and both calm down then return later to continue. Set some "serious conversation" rules before you talk to make sure you know where each stands in the way of fighting.
We are being almost anal about making sure there are no unspoken issues that could cause problems later on and it seems to working magnificently.
My partner (of one year) and I are pretty much the same, in our whole time together (living together almost the full year) we have only had one arguement and as we do about most issues, we laughed about it the next day too. What's the point in being angry with someone you love and spend bulk time with? It's a waste of precious moments together that could be happy times. I believe that you shouldn't leave home or go to bed angry or upset - what happens if one of you never wake up or die on your way to work? There's no second chance to say "I'm sorry and love you"
Someone once said "It's not the number of breaths you take, it's the number of moments that take your breath away that matter.
That's my :2cents: worth...(okay so it's really been my $2 worth but anyway....
We've been engaged seven years and have yet to miscommunicate where we are out of respect.
Seven years? Are you going by the "I'll marry you when I marry you" principle? ;)
:joylove: I'm in a VERY happy, loving relationship (1 year/one small argument) and don't think that all men are arseholes or anything such. I do know that some men as well as some women can be nasty, it works both ways, not just one. I'm sure that if you are truly happy, then you are truly happy. There's no "He/she treats me llike shit but I still love him/her" Either you're happy and respectful of each other or you're not suited.
On the funny side, my sister sent me this the other day (sounds just like her too!:grinnylov ):
World's Shortest Fairytale
Once upon a time, a guy asked a girl "Will you marry me?" The girl said, "NO!" And the girl lived happily ever after and went shopping, dancing, camping, drank martinis, always had a clean house, never had to cook, had sex with whomever she pleased... did whatever the hell she wanted, never argued, didn't get fat, travelled more, had many boyfriends, saved more money, and had all the hot water to herself. She watched chick flicks, never football, never wore fricken lacy lingerie that went up her ass, had high self esteem, never cried or yelled, felt and looked fabulous in sweat pants, and burped, swore, and farted all the time.
THE END