What it means to be an American
[SIZE=2]What are our ACTUAL cultural values, the things that make us unique?
= Coffee. In fact, the entire society operates on it, in a circular fashion. We work hard at our jobs, so that we will have enough money to buy high-priced coffee to wake us up, so that we can work hard at our jobs.
If the coffee is interrupted, the entire model could break down. We are 100% dependent on foreign-grown beans, and should consider establishing a National Strategic Reserve.
= We smell great. Because by the time we're age 18, we will have seen approximately 2,000,000 TV commercials telling us that we smell bad and offering us chemicals to prevent it.
= We sit outside our houses. Special cheap furniture is available especially for the practice of sitting just outside your house, if you have a house. This activity is only done at dusk. At any other time of day, it is considered odd.
If you are seated outside your house at dusk, and a friend arrives, it is a common American practice to greet him or her by waving your drink and saying "Hey!"
= We pick up our friends at the airport. If someone asks if you can pick them up at the airport, just do it, don't grumble about it. Help someone out, will you? Have you seen the parking rates at the airport?
= We don't talk about how much we make. We don't know why, we just have a "thing" about it. Most people think "it was a workplace policy once, or something".
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:coffee: + :donut: = :chill:
Video games become the substitute for playing outside.
TV becomes the the nanny.
Single parent households comprise fifty percent of modern families.
Where the hell is daddy.
Absent daddy = subsidized by welfare check.
( oh wait that was Clinton) Now they just starve.
We smile on photos. Our grandparents did not. Are we happier or do we just have better teeth?
We smile on photos. Our grandparents did not. Are we happier or do we just have better teeth?
When Grandma & Grandpa stood for a photograph they were warned to hold perfectly still....photo's were slow. A smile held for 30 seconds or more looks phony and forced....undignified.
I refuse to be a slave of those Coffee Barons. I'd rather get my caffeine the natural way...Diet Pepsi. :angel:
[SIZE=2]
If the coffee is interrupted, the entire model could break down.
[/SIZE]
Maybe...maybe not. I'd miss coffee, but
there is a plethora of alternative fuels.
Hypercaffinated cocoa would be a real win.
It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion...
It is by coffee alone I set my mind in motion, it is by the beans of java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire trembling, the trembling becomes a warning. it is by coffee alone I set my mind in motion...
Dear MaggieL:
Are you a
Firefox user?Yes. But I keep a lot of such things in
my Cookie Jar Page.
= Coffee. In fact, the entire society operates on it, in a circular fashion. We work hard at our jobs, so that we will have enough money to buy high-priced coffee to wake us up, so that we can work hard at our jobs.
You could almost say the same thing about cars.
I thought of "Dune" too, but it was more along the lines of "The coffee beans must flow!"
Your eyes don't go blue... just all twitchy and fast.
To be a true American you must have (a) pet(s) you treat like kids, spend way to much on, and bore people with their antics. ;)
Oh,....... and not eat them.
But
Petrie is the only one who
really understands me!! He deserves the cockatiel mansion and the bird masseuse.
It that what you told your wife you spent the money on? :eek:
= we drink vast quantities of Coors Light while watching NASCAR.
= we drink vast quantities of Pepsi while working.
= we drink vast quantities of water in bottles watching our kids play organized sports.
= we seem to have a lot of empty containers /metaphor
We work too much.
We sleep too little.
Double household incomes are the only way to get vacations.
[SIZE=2]If the coffee is interrupted, the entire model could break down. We are 100% dependent on foreign-grown beans, and should consider establishing a National Strategic Reserve.
[/SIZE]
I have abandoned the daily cups of coffee (thus making my sobriquet on another forum obsolete) and when I absolutely
need a caffeine hit, I drink a Red Bull, SoBe No Fear, Full Throttle or something similar.
I'm one of those people who is uncomfortable depending on any one thing to get by on a daily basis, so from a mental standpoint I'm a bit more comfortable in my own skin, so to speak.
Double household incomes are the only way to own a home.
Fixed that.
We don't talk about how much we make, but we judge people by what they own and are able to buy.
We concern ourselves with the materials, not what people do with them. It is not where the person goes, but the car, not the music, but the pricey instrument, not the writing/images/code, but the computer hardware and how fast it is.
We strive to isolate people behind bars, both criminals (in jail) and ourselves (in gated, secure communities).
We set aside one day a year to remember those that fought for our freedoms. The rest of the year, we fight to give up those freedoms because we feel threatened.
We set aside one day a year to remember those that fought for our freedoms. The rest of the year, we fight to give up those freedoms because we feel threatened.
Brilliant! :thumb: Not to sound snarky, but is that your quote? It's the most succint commentary on the current situation that I can find.
Brilliant! :thumb: Not to sound snarky, but is that your quote? It's the most succint commentary on the current situation that I can find.
Yeah, although similar commentary probably exists elsewhere. I cannot be the only person that finds the irony of thanking the soldiers for dying our freedoms while so many shout "we're at war, we have to make sacrifices".
Sounds cookie worthy to me. :thumb2:
Cookies and milk is a great American past time.
We set aside one day a year to remember those that fought for our freedoms. The rest of the year, we fight to give up those freedoms because we feel threatened.
Seems to me that most of the "surrendered freedoms" I hear people Cassandra-ing about of late are "freedoms" that people never actually had but have suddenly found sorely lacking, now that there's somebody they want to blame it on.
Personally, I feel just about as free as I did before 9/11 and PATRIOT. Maybe I'm just not yearning for the right kind of freedoms to generate the "police state" paranoia that's so fashionable these days.
What worries me are the people who want to disarm me in the hopes that if they do fewer outlaw kids will shoot each other (and anybody else standing nearby) over drugs, money and women.
It's cheaper than putting them in prison the first time they commit a crime. And after all, society is to blame.
We outsource our jobs.
We don't see 'Made In America' labels anymore.
We try to balance political correctness by telling ourselves we are not afraid of the turbaned man or the long gowned middle eastener who walks through our grocery store.
( ps that said, I've known alot of people from India who are so cool) :)
= we drink vast quantities of Coors Light while watching NASCAR.
= we drink vast quantities of Pepsi while working.
= we drink vast quantities of water in bottles watching our kids play organized sports.
= we seem to have a lot of empty containers /metaphor
ooh! Very good! You get an A!*
*and the sexual dalliance of your choice. No animals.
Personally, I feel just about as free as I did before 9/11 and PATRIOT.
I sure as hell don't, when the government can illegally listen to my phone calls and illegally read my emails, then pass any illegally gleaned information to another law enforcement agency who can LEGALLY use that illegally obtained information to prosecute me.
Now obviously amateur radio stations can be used to pass sensitive information to terrorists and should be confiscated. That's not much of a stretch. Wouldn't affect me in the least but I think you'd change your tune, damn quick.:eyebrow:
I sure as hell don't, when the government can illegally listen to my phone calls...
See, that's what I mean.
Which of your phone calls are likely illegally listened to? Do you regularly receive calls from suspected overseas terrorists? Domestic calls are not "listened to".
I remeber when I read that when monitoring an international call made by a non-US national being surveillied that NSA had to immediately cease if they figured out the other party was a US national. Seemed kinda extreme. These days, with how difficult it is to identify who the called party is, it's even more so.
And you
do remeber the Clipper Chip, right? :-)
...and illegally read my emails...
I hate to break it to you, but plaintext email has
never been anything close to secure.
If that worries you, you should encrypt it.; many people do.
Now obviously amateur radio stations can be used to pass sensitive information to terrorists and should be confiscated. That's not much of a stretch. Wouldn't affect me in the least but I think you'd change your tune, damn quick.
Which is exactly why radio amateurs radio operators have *always* been forbidden encrypt any of their messages...this is not new. They are also subject to stringent controls as to which country's nationals can pass messages though amateur radio.
FCC doesn't have to seize my radios to shut me down, all they need to do is lift my licence.
We outsource our jobs.
We don't see 'Made In America' labels anymore.
Really? I do.
( ps that said, I've known alot of people from India who are so cool) :)
I sure as hell don't, when the government can illegally listen to my phone calls and illegally read my emails, then pass any illegally gleaned information to another law enforcement agency who can LEGALLY use that illegally obtained information to prosecute me.
Some people just love and trust big government implicitly, which is something I'll never understand given the track record of the three letter agencies and politicians that will be dealing with the information. They subscribe to the logic of "If you've done nothing wrong..." because they feel it could not possibly affect their lives. So, if it it isn't affecting them, it can't possibly affect anyone else as innocent and as shining of a citizen. So, what's the big deal? It isn't as if
the government would ever use these powers for nefarious activities. Nooo, they would
never do that. Because, of course, we are at war* and we have to feel comfortable with these measures until it ends**. So please, don't think of phone record collecting or warrantless wiretaps as "spying on citizens", think of it as an ever-vigilant, protective family member always at your side. An "older brother", if you will.
There really are times when I hope these people that have given into the irrational fear get the government they desire.
* - not really. Should Congress ever actually declare it, we'd have to cough up the cash to give full benefits to soldiers and, of all things, follow certain rules of engagement.
** - the "war on terrorism" will last as long as terrorism does. You figure it out.
We outsource our jobs.
We don't see 'Made In America' labels anymore.
Really? I do.
You do? Like what? Remingtons? :p
Great cartoon too btw. It's not their fault US CEOs ask them to work for much more than they would normally get there. We need to hold our politicians accountable. That said, I do wish sometimes I was talking to a person whose first language is english. I don't know why I just feel strange talking to someone in another country about my account.
Which of your phone calls are likely illegally listened to?
How is "likely" relevant?
I sure as hell don't, when the government can illegally listen to my phone calls and illegally read my emails, then pass any illegally gleaned information to another law enforcement agency who can LEGALLY use that illegally obtained information to prosecute me.
Now obviously amateur radio stations can be used to pass sensitive information to terrorists and should be confiscated. That's not much of a stretch. Wouldn't affect me in the least but I think you'd change your tune, damn quick.:eyebrow:
If they can illegally do as they please so can I... they guy who comes for me dies, I feel bad for his family, but not bad enough,
he and the government chooses it. It is very simple. I am a patriot.
How is "likely" relevant?
Because he's not going to know if one is *actually* listened to. Unless he gets busted because of something he says, of course.
You do? Like what? Remingtons?
Well,
my Kel-Tec, anyway.
But I was thinking of clothing labels.
See, that's what I mean.
Which of your phone calls are likely illegally listened to? Do you regularly receive calls from suspected overseas terrorists? Domestic calls are not "listened to".
Bullshit
I remeber when I read that when monitoring an international call made by a non-US national being surveillied that NSA had to immediately cease if they figured out the other party was a US national. Seemed kinda extreme. These days, with how difficult it is to identify who the called party is, it's even more so.
Bullshit
And you do remeber the Clipper Chip, right? :-)
No
I hate to break it to you, but plain text email has never been anything close to secure.
If that worries you, you should encrypt it.; many people do.
That only keeps the general public at bay and attracts the government decoders.
Which is exactly why radio amateurs radio operators have *always* been forbidden encrypt any of their messages...this is not new. They are also subject to stringent controls as to which country's nationals can pass messages though amateur radio.
There are many ways to hide messages in plain text or language.
FCC doesn't have to seize my radios to shut me down, all they need to do is lift my licence.
Yeah sure, and if they lift my carry permit I can't take a gun to somebodies house and shoot them. C'mon, get real here.:rolleyes:
If they can illegally do as they please so can I... they guy who comes for me dies, I feel bad for his family, but not bad enough, he and the government chooses it. It is very simple. I am a patriot.
Bad Boy, Bad Boy, whatcha gonna do?
Whatcha gonna do when they send an Apache Longbow or an A-10 Warthog, or a Stryker for you? :eyebrow:
No
Well, look it up. Under "Clinton administration", if that helps.
That only keeps the general public at bay and attracts the government decoders.
Which is why good old Phil Zimmerman advocated everybody doing it all the time.
There are many ways to hide messages in plain text or language.
And even more in digital data. HF radio used to have significance in international intelligence; it doesn't anymore. For one thing, it requires somebody who knows what they're doing on both ends to use it.
Yeah sure, and if they lift my carry permit I can't take a gun to somebodies house and shoot them. C'mon, get real here.
Get real indeed. Do you advocate gun confiscation too?
I'm more worried about
liberals trying to take stuff away from me ("..as representatives of The Common Good", as Hilary said); they spend all their time talking about it. Take a look at that Google sketch-up thread...the
very first words out of tw's mouth when he found out I was a ham was about whether my neighbors would prevent me from erecting antennas.
Collectivists...*sigh*
I don't think Bush wants my radios. He seems to understand they're more valuable to him (and everybody else) in my hands.
HF radio used to have significance in international intelligence; it doesn't anymore. For one thing, it requires somebody who knows what they're doing on both ends to use it.
Uh...wha? You need to tune around above/below 12 and 30 meters sometime!
17 836 20 191 65...
73s.
Uh...wha? You need to tune around above/below 12 and 30 meters sometime! 17 836 20 191 65...
73s.
Yes, there still are numbers stations. Giant Talk is still in operation too.
But it's not anywhere near the big deal it used to be; internet steganography rules...and any dimwit with a laptop can do it.
The theory that numbers stations are mostly drug runners now seems plausible to me...and confiscating legally owned HF rigs won't affect that any more than confiscating legally owned weapons will stop gangbangers.
confiscating legally owned HF rigs won't affect that any more than confiscating legally owned weapons will stop gangbangers.
Uh, okay. I just mentioned numbers stations because I find them interesting. I'm not suggesting we take your rig away. Shee.
( getting back on topic )
Large soft serve icecream cones.
New vehichle tires and if you are really special some cool hub caps.
Uh, okay. I just mentioned numbers stations because I find them interesting. I'm not suggesting we take your rig away. Shee.
Didn't say
you did.
Bruce did; that was the original context. Or rather he was FUDding that Bush would...
Numbers stations are interesting to the extent that they still exist and you have to wonder why. You also have to wonder if they are actually carrying any traffic, or if they're just in operation to foil traffic analysis in case they're needed someday. .
( getting back on topic )
Large soft serve icecream cones.
Yeah...the last remaining founder of Mr. Softee died over the weekend.
We take our children on a relaxing vacations that have schedules of what to do, when to do it, and everyone better stick to the timeline or we're not going to make it to our dinner reservation hurryup hurryup go go go!.
Yeah...the last remaining founder of Mr. Softee died over the weekend.
:eek: no way!
ok , I didn't find mr softee but I did find a strange recipie.
SOFT ICE CREAM [COLOR=BLACK]1/2 gal. chocolate milk
1 can Eagle Brand milk
1 lg. carton Cool Whip[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#772222]Mix Eagle Brand milk and Cool Whip, stirring gently. Slowly stir in chocolate milk. Pour in gallon freezer and freeze in normal way. Makes 1 gallon.[/COLOR]
First of all it uses cool whip, then second it says to freeze 'in normal way'. What's the abnormal way?
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To be an american means being hairless for the most part. Buying high priced razors.
To be an american it means the word orgainic is 'new' and 'trendy' when in actuality it just means 'old fashioned' .
To be an american you must own a television with over 100 channels and leave it running and don't watch it because there is nothing on.
"What it means to be an American" ...you have to be really, really fat?
I'm sorry, that was uncalled for. It really means that you believe the Earth was created 5,000 years ago. Also, you have to hate the right people. That's probably the most important, the hating.
To be an american it means you could be anyone from any subculture.
Some americans are bitter and negative about their country and people in general.
To be an american you might own a membership at a gym. Whether fat or thin being health conscience seems to be an american fad right now.
To be an american means you have an unsquishable hope that goes beyond politics and rhetoric.
...and no sense of humor. that's the other thing. the hate and the no humor.
"Funny" is a movable feast. Many asshats like to blame the poor reception their asshatery gets on a lack of sense of humor, when in fact it's simply as result of having some taste. Finding Adam Sandler or Carrottop to be dreary and dimwitted does not prove someone doesn't have a sense of humor, for example.
:eek: no way!
Way. Oh...the link on that page to the sheet music is broken.
This is the location they're trying to link to.
then second it says to freeze 'in normal way'. What's the abnormal way?
Probably any way that allows large ice crystals to form. The normal way prevents that.
That's a good point, Maggie - in that one specific instance where the "asshattor" places direct blame upon the "asshatee" . . . However, consider the other side of the coin: the inability to recognize humorous intentions, IE responding out of left field with a stern reply to a light-hearted post. In other words, an "apples" reply to an "oranges" post.
if you are really special some cool hub caps.
Cool hub caps is an oxymoron.
Cool hub caps is an oxymoron.
You're an oxymoron!
(See? That was a joke. Whether it was funny or not is irrelevant to whether it was posted with serious intentions. The inability to recognize a joke as a joke doesn't simply equate to whether you thought it was funny or not.)
Uh...wha? You need to tune around above/below 12 and 30 meters sometime! 17 836 20 191 65...
73s.
Did somebody say
numbers stations? Bonus link.You're an oxymoron!
So's your mother.
Did somebody say numbers stations? Bonus link.
I used to fall asleep in front of an old Hallicrafters HF rig, tuned to some distant voice spewing seemingly random numbers. I was intrigued by them, listening for any hint as to what they might be or what purpose they served. I still hear them, today, and they haven't lost any of their mystique.
Note: falling asleep to numbers stations gives you
very strange dreams.
wrt monitoring emails, calls, internet searches, etc
ad nauseam:
Justice Department wants Internet companies to save personal Web surfing data
By Elise Ackerman
Mercury News
The U.S. Department of Justice has told Google, Microsoft and other major Internet companies that it wants them to keep detailed records of where people go while surfing the Web for up to two years.
the sh*t just never stops. Why not just have regular mandatory public mass strip searches, maybe at checkpoints?! You just never know what might turn up. :smack: *This* is your best shot at catching perverts with a taste for child pornography? Bonus question: Who here thinks this will be restricted to the effort to catch the above mentioned perverts? Hmm? Anyone, anyone? Now who thinks this will be ABUSED to troll for whatever looks...interesting. Like, oh, I don't know... searches for information contrary to the administration's One True Way (tm)?
Special shout out to AG Gonsalez: Go away. When I need a cop, I'll call one.
And in aticipation of the terror-addled knee-jerk reaction "It's in the interest of national security!! If you don't have anything to hide, there's no reason to be opposed to such a plan." To the utterer or thinker (and I use that term very very loosely here), I say bull shit. Privacy, liberty and security are not quantities in some zero sum game. They are not mutually exclusive. I urge you to read the excellent short essay,
The Eternal Value of Privacy by Bruce Schneier.
This is the loss of freedom we face when our privacy is taken from us. This is life in former East Germany, or life in Saddam Hussein's Iraq. And it's our future as we allow an ever-intrusive eye into our personal, private lives.
Too many wrongly characterize the debate as "security versus privacy." The real choice is liberty versus control. Tyranny, whether it arises under threat of foreign physical attack or under constant domestic authoritative scrutiny, is still tyranny. Liberty requires security without intrusion, security plus privacy. Widespread police surveillance is the very definition of a police state. And that's why we should champion privacy even when we have nothing to hide.
I moved your comment
here, because I think it is a really important note and I don't want to clutter up this BBQs/SUV/apple pie thread with anymore ranting about Big Brother.
the inability to recognize humorous intentions
...is not identical with recognizing humor.
If you haven't manged to be funny, don't expect to be treated as a humorist. Credit is not given for "trying".
Or being trying.
@Maggie: I'm not defining a "joke" by whether people thought it was funny or not. I'm saying there are posts intended to be taken seriously and those that aren't. The inability to distinguish between these two categories can subjectively be considered either the fault of the author for inadequately expressing him or herself, of the fault of the reader for failing to comprehend the meaning intended by the author.
Nowhere, in no way shape or form, does the variable perception of whether the "joke" was "funny" or not have anything to do with anything I've posted here.
The "inablity to recognize humorous intentions" is "not identical with recognizing humor." Right, that's what I've been saying all along. "The inability to recognize a joke as a joke doesn't simply equate to whether you thought it was funny or not."
Or being trying.
See, now
that's funny.
Cool hub caps is an oxymoron.
yeah, I kinda said it with tounge in cheek.
To be american means using oxymorons. Or being one sometimes. :) Like the Hell's Angles.
Usuing personal characteristics like Hate and Humor are common to all peoples and isn't really an 'american' thing.
oh,,, and I do laugh when people are actually funny when they are Not stupid funny, or warped funny. I think witty is funny. I don't think it's funny how the internet filters most of a persons personality. I don't think it's funny how somepeople want to paint ugly little pictures of someone else.
Hating the 'right' people is a just a warped . There is no RIGHT. Hate just IS sometimes. Very unfortunate but everyone does it at times. I don't think that subject matter was given to be funny.
[edit]
I don't think that subject matter was given to be funny.
You're saying
I didn't mean it as a joke when
I said it? Even after
I said
I was just joking, you're saying "no, you weren't joking, because I'm a mind reader"
???Nice try Flint, but you'll never buy a new car again at less than 17% interest.:headshake
I moved your comment here, because I think it is a really important note and I don't want to clutter up this BBQs/SUV/apple pie thread with anymore ranting about Big Brother.
Is that what you really think "Being an American" is about?
I'm more worried about liberals trying to take stuff away from me ("..as representatives of The Common Good", as Hilary said); they spend all their time talking about it. Take a look at that Google sketch-up thread...the very first words out of tw's mouth when he found out I was a ham was about whether my neighbors would prevent me from erecting antennas.
He asked that because it's an extremely common problem, as you damn well know. If you think it's a problem with "liberals" you are sadly naive.
I don't think Bush wants my radios. He seems to understand they're more valuable to him (and everybody else) in my hands.
More likely he doesn't understand shit, but one of these days some bureaucrat will ponder it, while trying to figure out a way to advance his/her career.
Get real indeed. Do you advocate gun confiscation too?
Nice try but the fact remains, you don't need a license to use that radio, so confiscation is the only solution for the government. Maybe sending everyone that has demonstrated a working knowledge to Gitmo, too.
And even more in digital data. HF radio used to have significance in international intelligence; it doesn't anymore. For one thing, it requires somebody who knows what they're doing on both ends to use it.
So terrorists that learn to fly a 767 are too dumb to operate a ham radio?
No, I don't think they'll be going after ham radios but I'm pointing out it wouldn't affect me a bit, while I'm sure you would be livid.
The same way if they said cars couldn't have more than 200hp, the majority wouldn't care but I'd be very pissed off.
The point is, that taking away any freedoms from anyone affects us all. :cool:
....We don't see 'Made In America' labels anymore.
= on those items we do see a "Made in America" label, we wonder if there is a city in China that is named "America" and may even MapQuest or Google it to check.
= we most likely do not object to strangers taking photos of our cars or nice toys but get combative if that said stranger even suggests that we appear in the photos with that cool thing.
( Outside the US = we actively encourage [foreign] strangers to take photos of our vintage rust free cars or goofy/outdated toys and get combative if that said stranger even suggests that we
NOT appear in the photos with that cool thing)
= on those items we do see a "Made in America" label, we wonder if there is a city in China that is named "America" and may even MapQuest or Google it to check.
There is a city named Usa in Japan that once labelled its products "MADE IN USA".
Maybe sending everyone that has demonstrated a working knowledge to Gitmo, too.
Quite a straw man. Attribute an extreme position to the opposition as a hypothetical and then exclaim how extreme it is.
So terrorists that learn to fly a 767 are too dumb to operate a ham radio?
Learning to steer an already-flying 767 into a building is pretty damned easy...it's not rocket science. But my points were that 1) there's much easier ways today to get better communications under most circumstances and 2) the strategic significance of HF radio is already recognized.
And nobody believes that it's possible to choke off all communications between any two people on the planet.
No, I don't think they'll be going after ham radios
Unless crotchety 80 year olds are considered terrorists, I'm certain ham radios are safe from government concern.
"Funny" is a movable feast. Many asshats like to blame the poor reception their asshatery gets on a lack of sense of humor, when in fact it's simply as result of having some taste. Finding Adam Sandler or Carrottop to be dreary and dimwitted does not prove someone doesn't have a sense of humor, for example.
Thank you. :heart-on: I do have good taste.
That's a good point, Maggie - in that one specific instance where the "asshattor" places direct blame upon the "asshatee" . . . However, consider the other side of the coin: the inability to recognize humorous intentions, IE responding out of left field with a stern reply to a light-hearted post. In other words, an "apples" reply to an "oranges" post.
When I 'post sternly' it will be after thinking a harsher word than 'retard'.
= on those items we do see a "Made in America" label, we wonder if there is a city in China that is named "America" and may even MapQuest or Google it to check.
= we most likely do not object to strangers taking photos of our cars or nice toys but get combative if that said stranger even suggests that we appear in the photos with that cool thing.
( Outside the US = we actively encourage [foreign] strangers to take photos of our vintage rust free cars or goofy/outdated toys and get combative if that said stranger even suggests that we NOT appear in the photos with that cool thing)
now that's funny ! :lol:
Thank you for the nice post slang.
Unless crotchety 80 year olds are considered terrorists...
Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, will be 67 in july.
Actually not all hams are old guys.
Actually not all hams are old guys.
Those ladies look like they're having lots of fun. :D And nice people too!
Learning to steer an already-flying 767 into a building is pretty damned easy...it's not rocket science.
They teach more than that at Embry-Riddle.
Quite a straw man. Attribute an extreme position to the opposition as a hypothetical and then exclaim how extreme it is.
No more of a straw man than you trying to change the subject to gun control. :p
No more of a straw man than you trying to change the subject to gun control.
Come now...you wanted to wave a bloody rag about some mythical security-based confiscation that would upset me, and had to flee to *ham radio* of all things, because gun confiscation was too obvious, too implausible from the Bush administration, and completely resonant with liberal dogma.
You made up a radio confiscation out of whole cloth and attributed it to Bush, while Dianne Feinstein has already come out publically in favor of wholesale gun confiscation (of course *she* gets to keep *her* permit!).
*That* one is reality. Which should worry me more? And which is a straw man?
You're so busy wrapped up in all about you, you missed the point completely.
Of course I picked ham radio because you are involved with them and it wouldn't affect me at all. That was that god damned point.
Personally, I feel just about as free as I did before 9/11 and PATRIOT. Maybe I'm just not yearning for the right kind of freedoms to generate the "police state" paranoia that's so fashionable these days.
What worries me are the people who want to disarm me in the hopes that if they do fewer outlaw kids will shoot each other (and anybody else standing nearby) over drugs, money and women.
You better start yearning for the kind of freedoms others want if you expect other people to care when they come for your freedoms. That's the malaise that's going to fuck this country....me, me it's all about me.:rolleyes:
Those ladies look like they're having lots of fun. :D And nice people too!
Most hams really are. Very helpful, too, and willing to teach. And MaggieL is right -- the hobby has plenty of young people these days.
You're so busy wrapped up in all about you, you missed the point completely.
You're missing the point that your hypothetical is
hypothetical...as well as overreaching.
Gun confiscation is a real, acknowleged element of liberal policy. I ask again: should I care more about your hypothetical boogeyman or the real threats actually made by the Democrats?
One important thing it means to be an American is that we
all arrive at political judgements based on
our own values and beliefs. It's pretty lame for you to claim I'm selfish because I won't climb on
your collectivist fantasy FUD bandwagon. You're selling an agenda that serves your own political self-interest; the fact that I won't buy gives you some moral high ground only in your own eyes.
The difference is my "own political self-interest" is concern about your rights and freedoms as well as my own. :eyebrow:
Those ladies look like they're having lots of fun. :D And nice people too!
The vast majority of hams are great people. Check out our
celebration of the 100th anniversary of voice on radio.
The difference is my "own political self-interest" is concern about your rights and freedoms as well as my own. :eyebrow:
Well, that's the self-righteous flag you're wrapping yourself in...and it's a standard collectivist pitch.
My concerns over issues are driven by my own assessment of which are important, and how to interpret the platforms of various competeing candidates and parties relative to those issues..
Your fundamental thesis seems to be that the Democrats have more respect for "rights and freedoms" than their opposition, and I just don't buy the assertion. I've seen them in action, and my opinion is the performance doesn't live up to the advertising.
Your fundamental thesis seems to be that the Democrats have more respect for "rights and freedoms" than their opposition, ~snip
Not at all. My fundamental thesis is that all politicians are scum and should be watched carefully because they will screw me for their own benefit in a heartbeat. The ones in power are always my biggest enemy at the moment, hence Bush & Co are the threat and I will never accept the loyal opposition would have been worse. That's the lamest excuse possible for accepting oppression from the party in power.:(
...I will never accept the loyal opposition would have been worse...
Well, that's where we disagree. When the "loyal opposition" had control they pushed as hard as *they* could for exactly the same kinds of powers. and I don't think they used them as effectively when they had them.
But then I don't think we even agree on what "worse" is. Where we agree is that all pols should be watched.
But criticism that's shrill or overreaching doesn't enhance credibility of those who deliver it, and so much of the anti-Bush stuff that's so trendy and considers itself so clever strikes me at the same time as vacuous. It may have a shallow popular appeal, but I think it's devoid of any real content.
Before President Bush touched down in Pennsylvania Wednesday to promote his nuclear energy policy, the environmental group Greenpeace was mobilizing.
"This volatile and dangerous source of energy" is no answer to the country's energy needs, shouted a Greenpeace fact sheet decrying the "threat" posed by the Limerick reactors Bush visited.
But a factoid or two later, the Greenpeace authors were stumped while searching for the ideal menacing metaphor.
We present it here exactly as it was written, capital letters and all: "In the twenty years since the Chernobyl tragedy, the world's worst nuclear accident, there have been nearly [FILL IN ALARMIST AND ARMAGEDDONIST FACTOID HERE]."
Had Greenpeace been hacked by a nuke-loving Bush fan? Or was this proof of Greenpeace fear-mongering?
The aghast Greenpeace spokesman who issued the memo, Steve Smith, said a colleague was making a joke by inserting the language in a draft that was then mistakenly released.
"Given the seriousness of the issue at hand, I don't even think it's funny," Smith said.
The final version did not mention Armageddon. It just warned of plane crashes and reactor meltdowns.
But criticism that's shrill or overreaching doesn't enhance credibility of those who deliver it,....
Shrill doesn't make it untrue and overreaching is your opinion. If you think Bush & Co are on your side, you're delusional. :headshake
I like you maggie but Bush is the antichrist.
Yes I am a socialist democrate who will probably vote for McCain if he runs.
My perspective is I have never liked him and he gave me nothing to change my mind.
I see nothing redeeming. Here are the few of my reasons. He used the Christian right to get elected. He ran on the banner of 'compassionate conservative' He said we would not be the policemen of the world. He hasn't funded no child left behind. The states are either cutting classes or raising taxes or whatever to comply with the law. Your federal taxes went down but your social security taxes doubled. Mentally ill people are out in the streets. We didn't have to invade Iraq. Iran was always the threat. I don't even need to go into the corruption part of the mismanagement.
I don't think people are being unreasonable alarmists. We as a nation need to recognize the ripple effect. We should not do things 'just because we can'.
shallow? people are scared or frustrated
clever? I see lots of restraint. If I give you a rope and you hang yourself with it it isn't my fault.
devoid of real content? probably dumb struck. It isn't the time for rhetoric as usual. There's too much at stake.
I am curious. What do you think this administration has been good at? Where is the positive that you see because I am not seeing it.
Being American is about being extreme. And about being passionate about those extremes.
You're either Republican or Democrat -no middle ground.
You're either a civilian of the freeest country on Earth, or you've had all your freedoms stripped by anti-terrorist overreactions
You're either so fat you're wider than you are tall and need a scooter to get round Walmart, or so healthy you consider a soyburger in a whole wheat bun a once-a-year moment of gluttony
You either live in a cookie cutter neighborhood with perfect lawns and regimented petunias, or in a messy hillbilly cabin surrounded by a car graveyard
You either have perfect teeth or no teeth
You're either a regular church-goer or spawn of the devil
......
Seriously, though (well more seriously anyway) What it is to be American surely must depend on which cultures you are comparing it to. Apple Pie's Pretty popular in the UK too, you know!
I felt I had more personal freedom in the UK than I do here. But there's certainly a lot more freedom here than in Afghanistan, for example. At least by Western standards of freedom. Brits don't know you think they have bad teeth and bad hygeine. They think the French are pretty poor in that area.
America is so completely different from the UK, it's almost impossible to make comparisons/pick traits that belong uniquley to one nation, but the one thing that does strike me is that Americans do everything full force. Full commitment. Always.
.....Americans don't go to their kids' soccer games and just watch. They scream, yell, cheer, find a way to make a positive comment about a totally lost situation, make sure they have all the right equipment, take chairs, blankets, snacks, refuse to mention the score if they lose.......
Unfortunately, the same thing can we said about political situations where a quieter, more understated approach might be more effective.
So it's neither a good or a bad thing, but it is a very American thing, from the point of view of this Brit. Nothing American is done quietly, understatedly, half-heartedly and no admission of error is ever made.
good post oh wise monster
I like you maggie but Bush is the antichrist.
Well, that's the kind of closely-reasoned insightful criticisim I'm talking about. It's become trendy in the small very Blue-colored social spaces that cluster around the social-service ecological niches of Democratically-controlled urban centers to Bush-bash. But it consists basically of a lot of handwaving about how horrible Bush is and how much better things would be if the Democrats were in control. Everybody tacitly strokes each other about how much more hip and sophisticated and enlightened they are than those hateful selfish rednecks, and enjoys a warm fuzzy feeling for having struck another Blow Aginst the Empire. .
"What the Bush administration has been good at" is doing a better job of responding to the demanding times we're in than the Dems would have, given their track record.
As I've mentioned here before, I voted for Gore...but realized on 9/11 that I'm glad he didn't win. He doesn't have the chops to be commander-in-chief and certainly neither does Kerry. With the Cold War over a lot of us--me included--indulged in the wishful thinking that the CinC role had become a much less important part of the presidency.
We were wrong.
I think the Bush administrations policies suck on a number of issues, including among other things immigration and gay rights. Bush himself certainly doesn't come off well on TV. But...
Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.
That's pretty much how I feel about Bush. Appalling, but still better than any available alternative. People who hate his obvious whoring after the Christian Right might consider the possibility that he does it to counter the Democrats whoring after the Socialist Left.
Shrill doesn't make it untrue and overreaching is your opinion. If you think Bush & Co are on your side, you're delusional.
Shrill may perhaps not make it untrue but it certainly severely damages its credibility...if the argument was actually convincing it wouldn't be necssary to scream it. And yes, overreaching is indeed my opinion. Obviously Bush isn't completely on my side. But the Dems are even less so.
Shrill may perhaps not make it untrue but it certainly severely damages its credibility...
Well, there's the Republican campaign strategy in a nutshell. "Sure, what you're saying may be true, but at least I can damage your credibility!"
Well, there's the Republican campaign strategy in a nutshell. "Sure, what you're saying may be true, but at least I can damage your credibility!"
What I said was "Being shrill doesn't make something untrue", agreeing with Bruce's point. But that's not a concession that it's true. Do you use logic like that in your everyday life? If so, how do you survive?
The problem with the shrillness is that it's annoying and counterproductive--unless you're only preaching to the choir, in which case it's merely pointless and self-congratulatory. It has nothing to do with the actual truth of the argument, except insofar as it projects that the speaker is breathless and hysterical...which in the case of the Dems can't be blamed on the GOP; the Dems are damaging their *own* credibility.
Shrill may perhaps not make it untrue
~ Shrill<>!true
But that's not a concession that it's [being shrill] true
~ !(shrill==true)
what you're saying [shrill-y] may be true
~ shrill=true or shrill<>true
How can you fail to follow Happy Monkey's logic? He paraphrased you and you confirmed it, what's unclear? His logic is sound.
Furthermore, his political observation is worthwhile too.
This current derailment is about the difference between shrillness and truthfulness. That is a discussion about the difference between form and content. And I agree that the grandstanding by the current political newsmakers is vastly more about form than content. And that's a stance that practically begs to substitute "Sure, what you're saying may be true, but at least I can damage your credibility!" for dialog.
Shrill and true are disjoint. His logic is bogus. So is yours.
What's disjoint is trying to apply strict rules of logic to a conversation like this. If you wish to declare shrill and true to be disjoint, your own introduction to this conversation of the word "shrill" in response to xoB's political opinion is a poster child for illogic, and an ad hominem attack as well. "We disagree, and you're shrill." I read his post, and your response and I didn't find it "shrill". You clearly disagree, am I being shrill now?
As to my logic, I specifically called the comparison of shrill and true misapplied. They're not disjoint, though. They're complimentary. The first is about form, and the second is about content. They're NOT the same thing, but they absolutely overlap.
Additionally, I made a distict separation of the "logic" of the conversation and the political opinions being voiced. I happen to agree with xoB and HM, and clearly you do not. That seems to be the source of friction here, not "logic". MaggieL, you are in the difficult and uneviable position of defending this administration's actions. Good luck disengaging from that tar baby.
"You're shrill" is an ad hominem. "Attacks on Bush that use the words 'Nazi', 'mental midget' or 'antichrist' are shrill." is merely descriptive....and if not turning "A does not imply B" into "A implies not B" is too formal, then Goddess save us all.
Well said V. even if you conjured the metaphoric "tar baby"...is it coming back into common use?! trendy.
Americans are trendy.
Really, I was just going to note the American almost universal ideal of "the lawn" particularly in the front. A very uniform presentation. You can get a bit funkier in the back, but dont break the vast chemical green expanse.
Being American means that even though it is legal, we don't want anyone knowing what porn sites we visit or which phone sex services we use. :blush:
Being American means that even though it is legal, we don't want anyone knowing what porn sites we visit or which phone sex services we use. :blush:
It also means, however, that we want to know what sites other people are looking at.
"You're shrill" is an ad hominem. "Attacks on Bush that use the words 'Nazi', 'mental midget' or 'antichrist' are shrill." is merely descriptive....and if not turning "A does not imply B" into "A implies not B" is too formal, then Goddess save us all.
well, I wasn't screaming the word 'anitchrist' and waving my hands running in circles. :p
And I would never call Bush a Nazi. I reserve that word for Rumsfield. :handball:
well, I wasn't screaming the word 'anitchrist' and waving my hands running in circles. :p
Yeah, I know.
The problem here is there's an ongoing debate spread across two or three threads; since I'm stubbornly not responding to the standard Bush-bashing normative pressures, many feel a need to to show me the Error Of My Ways and collect their communal strokes for being seen to be Right Thinking Progressives.
Oh...sorry...I mean "Correct Thinking Progressives".
So some comments from me that may seem to apply to you personally actually are partly responses to stuff going on elsewhere.
Honest, there's nothing like being a gun-owning bisexual to keep one from being poltically doctrinaire.
Honest, there's nothing like being a gun-owning bisexual to keep one from being poltically doctrinaire.
not a problem ;)
I got to love ya. You're the only person who talks to me. :heart-on:
The problem with the shrillness is that it's annoying and counterproductive--unless you're only preaching to the choir, in which case it's merely pointless and self-congratulatory. It has nothing to do with the actual truth of the argument, except insofar as it projects that the speaker is breathless and hysterical...~snip
Then how do you explain the popularity of FOX News.:lol:
As I've mentioned here before, I voted for Gore...but realized on 9/11 that I'm glad he didn't win. He doesn't have the chops to be commander-in-chief and certainly neither does Kerry. With the Cold War over a lot of us--me included--indulged in the wishful thinking that the CinC role had become a much less important part of the presidency.
We were wrong.
I think the Bush administrations policies suck on a number of issues, including among other things immigration and gay rights. Bush himself certainly doesn't come off well on TV. But...
Being able to start wars does not require any special intelligence, especially after Congress gave him blanket authorization. By every other measure, he has failed so far in Iraq.
As for immigration and gay rights, I wouldn't go around mentioning those two in the same sentence or else someone in the White House will get the bright idea to offer the conservatives in Congress a deal - amnesty for the 11 million in illegals in exchange for shipping an equal number of gays to Mexico.
As I began to read this thread, I poured myself a cup of Jamaica Blue Mountain Coffee, the best in the world.
Then how do you explain the popularity of FOX News.
I watch it and also CNN and listen to PBS as well as WPHT...it's not hard to explain. If you've never spent much time with other news outlets you might believe PBS and CNN don't lean, but the relentlessly liberal spin of CNN and PBS turns a *lot* of people off outside of the Blue zones.
The whoring for Christianity on Fox (and the whoring for sensationalism of O'Reilly) at least are intermittant and obvious.
...someone in the White House will get the bright idea to offer the conservatives in Congress a deal - amnesty for the 11 million in illegals in exchange for shipping an equal number of gays to Mexico.
Would you like a paper bag to breathe into? I mean really...
SPEAKING OF American...
[QUOTE=MaggieL]
The problem with the shrillness is that it's annoying and counterproductive--unless you're only preaching to the choir, in which case it's merely pointless and self-congratulatory. It has nothing to do with the actual truth of the argument, except insofar as it projects that the speaker is breathless and hysterical...~snip
Then how do you explain the popularity of FOX News.[/quote]
it's merely pointless and self-congratulatory. And poisonous.
The whoring for Christianity on Fox (and the whoring for sensationalism of O'Reilly) at least are intermittant and obvious.
You're talking about those parts between the commercials, right? Yeah, I noticed that too. Very considerate of them to alert the viewers in that way.
= Seeing large numbers of non-Americans flood into what you used to think of as your country while seeing large numbers of what you used to think of as American jobs fly out with the same velocity.
That ain't me, Kitsune. :lol2:
Well, okay, it isn't me, either.
We don't mind prime time television showing people being shot to death, but
we fear the nipple.
I'm not American , so I cannot say what it feels like to be an American . I can however give you an outside-looking-in idea . The thing I find extraordinary about Americans is how they work so hard . You hardly have any holidays , compared to the holidays we have in Europe . And yet you all seem to radiate relaxedness . Very paradoxical .
I'm not American , so I cannot say what it feels like to be an American . I can however give you an outside-looking-in idea . The thing I find extraordinary about Americans is how they work so hard . You hardly have any holidays , compared to the holidays we have in Europe . And yet you all seem to radiate relaxedness . Very paradoxical .
Wow. That's the nicest thing I've heard about American's in a damn long time.
And, we radiate relaxedness because of the :fumette:
We appear to be relaxed because we don't have to think. Our busy lives are laid out for us, all we have to focus on is the doing - and that's easy.
6:00 am get up, void bladder.
6:10 am eat breakfast.
6:20 am shit, shower, shampoo, shave, and shine.
6:45 am leave for work.
See, it's relaxing when you're too busy to think. :3eye:
When you radiate all your relaxedness, you don't have any left for yourself.
6:20 am shit, shower, shampoo, shave, and shine.
Wow, that's busier than my schedule! I take time to do most of those things separately!
oh noes, you got me started.
the first american principle is greed. we are greedy by nature due to our second rate capitalistic ideals. we will push any one or anything out of the way without a second thought of the long term reprocussions to get what we want. (i.e. foriegn oil)
secondly most americans are emphatically uneducated and far too trust worthy of our corrupt system. people are too ignorant to even see ro care that we're being conditioned on a mass scale daily to keep us fat, happy, and submissive.
which brings me to my third and final. americans are some of the most gluttonous, lazy creatures in exsistance. we are unhealthy both mentally (but hey why not just pop a pill) and physically (gastric bypass is a quick fix). we expect big brother to keep us safe just as long as we dont have to lift a finger or figure anything out for ourselves.
i mean no offense to any one remotely patriotic on this forum but plz, wake up.
Nice job, Primal...and don't apologize for seeming unpatriotic....bottom line, the real patriots are the critics...without them, we'd lose our democracy - or what's left of it.
I'm not American , so I cannot say what it feels like to be an American . I can however give you an outside-looking-in idea . The thing I find extraordinary about Americans is how they work so hard . You hardly have any holidays , compared to the holidays we have in Europe . And yet you all seem to radiate relaxedness . Very paradoxical .
That isn't relaxedness...it's apathy. Caring is too costly in this country.
Nice job, Primal...and don't apologize for seeming unpatriotic....bottom line, the real patriots are the critics...without them, we'd lose our democracy - or what's left of it.
we dont have one :(
thomas jefferson said that deomcracy probably wouldnt last for more than 200 years. he was right.
i dont even see why people bother to vote. its complete symbolism of freedom. unless the electoral college ok's the vote of the majority of the people then to hell with that. or in some cases if you have a brother who is a governer in a certain state it doesnt matter what the rest of the country says.
they leave us under the false pretense of having freedom of choice and take it away very subtly.
I'm not American , so I cannot say what it feels like to be an American . I can however give you an outside-looking-in idea . The thing I find extraordinary about Americans is how they work so hard . You hardly have any holidays , compared to the holidays we have in Europe . And yet you all seem to radiate relaxedness . Very paradoxical .
we work so hard so we stay distracted from the bigger picture.america tries to uphold capitalistic ideals, if you arent being productive in some form or another then that screws the whole system up.
i probably sound like an uber conspiracy theorist but i swear im not. its just the way things are.
No question, we're losing our guaranteed freedoms everyday. But one good thing about this democracy is that it cycles historically. There are social movements that keep and/or restore democratic principles on a fairly regular basis. Some are more notable than others, but the history of this country says they go on far more frequently than in most histories. I think that's the problem....we're long overdue....it's been building for quite a while...I don't know about you, but I have a sense of pressure building, of something imminent. Many of us seem to be holding our breaths, waiting for the upheaval. I'd rather have that than this suffocating, paralyzing disintegration of our rights. And if we handle the upcoming upheaval intelligently, we might be able to prove Jefferson wrong...and wouldn't he be proud!
oh noes, you got me started.
the first american principle is greed. we are greedy by nature due to our second rate capitalistic ideals. we will push any one or anything out of the way without a second thought of the long term reprocussions to get what we want. (i.e. foriegn oil)
First of all our capitalistic ideals are not second rate. Nobody has better capitalistic ideals than we do. Secondly, I haven't pushed anybody out of the way to get foriegn oil since the '73 embargo. Don't confuse the government/industry with individual Americans.
secondly most americans are emphatically uneducated and far too trust worthy of our corrupt system. people are too ignorant to even see ro care that we're being conditioned on a mass scale daily to keep us fat, happy, and submissive.
Come back when you've got a wife and 6 kids, a mortgage and bills up to your ears. Then tell us how much you're worrying and what you're doing to straighten out the system.
which brings me to my third and final. americans are some of the most gluttonous, lazy creatures in exsistance. we are unhealthy both mentally (but hey why not just pop a pill) and physically (gastric bypass is a quick fix).
What do you live forever? Why? So you can tell other people they should be doing what you think is best for them?
we expect big brother to keep us safe just as long as we dont have to lift a finger or figure anything out for ourselves.
Isn't that what we pay them for?.
i mean no offense to any one remotely patriotic on this forum but plz, wake up.
No, you wake up.
If you don't like the was this country operates you've got 2 choices. Either find someplace else to live or change it...I honestly suggest the latter.
On the other hand, if you just want to tell me what to think, how to feel and how to live......well, let's just say, Homey don't play dat. ;)
Damn, P.M.
Cool..... now that you can but your own beer w/out a fake ID you can tell all the rest of us idiots how to run the country.
If I were you I'd move to one of those countries over ther somewhere that has already adapted the perfect government that you have seemed to have masterminded.
IMO, there's only one thing worse than a commy bastard.... & thats a commy bastard living in MY country and pissing and moaning 24/7. Sheesh.....
Cool..... now that you can but your own beer w/out a fake ID you can tell all the rest of us idiots how to run the country.
But he's been "mad for fucking years"! :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=xoxoxoBruce]First of all our capitalistic ideals are not second rate. Nobody has better capitalistic ideals than we do.
Maybe a comma between Primal's "capitalistic" and "ideals" should be added. But insisting that we have first rate "capitalistic ideals" isn't exactly a compliment. Our current form of capitalism, laissez-faire, wreaks a lot of damage over time...we've been witnessing it since the late 70's...the sudden need to change from a manufacturing base to a service base simply because industry had no restrictions on taking our manufacturing overseas for cheaper overhead and higher dividends to stockholders. Careers, families, towns, small businesses, schools, neighborhoods, regions, were devastated by this. And now we have a huge income gap and a privileged class, a large number of medically uninsured, personal debt to income ratios that are frightening, no job security, unprecedented levels of emotional and physical dysfunction, etc...it's awful. Our government hasn't been doing the job they're being paid to do. Instead they're trying to cure our (their) ills by becoming Big Brother.
The problem I think Primal was noting is that instead of fighting back, many Americans have become complacent and apathetic. A good point to make is that it's really difficult to fight back...the vortex that this economic system has us sucked into is powerful and disempowering. There's no time to fight, and little energy. (Exactly what you said about 'having a mortgage, six kids...', etc.) The economics we live by have us hogtied, and industry and finance know that. But something's got to break soon...Americans typically will only tolerate so much.
the vortex that this economic system has us sucked into is powerful and disempowering. There's no time to fight, and little energy.
I don't doubt it one bit. I'm in the middle of this book,
Nickel and Dimed and it has really opened my eyes as to why people are trapped in low wage jobs, not to mention why no one has time or energy to stand up for anything, anymore. I have no doubt the system is this way by design, either.
[QUOTE=xoxoxoBruce]First of all our capitalistic ideals are not second rate. Nobody has better capitalistic ideals than we do.
Maybe a comma between Primal's "capitalistic" and "ideals" should be added. But insisting that we have first rate "capitalistic ideals" isn't exactly a compliment. ~snip
Duh.
He may not like capitalistic ideals but can't acuse them of being second rate ones. ;)
Never ceases to amaze me how many people WILL puff up over our "capitalistic ideals"...from Rand to Trump to Cheney...don't know you yet Bruce...and it's tough to tell these days between sarcasm and heartfelt belief. Now, ain't that a sad statement?
Come back when you've got a wife and 6 kids, a mortgage and bills up to your ears.
Sounds like the definition of selfish...or ignorant...or both. After the third kid you should know why they're happening.
snip~ Our government hasn't been doing the job they're being paid to do. Instead they're trying to cure our (their) ills by becoming Big Brother.
Now you're totally wrong here. The government is doing exactly what they are being paid to do....by those who pay the most.....to benefit those that pay the most. You surely don't think that piddling few thousand dollars you kick in counts, do you?
Perhaps you mean they aren't doing the job they were
elected to do.
The problem I think Primal was noting is that instead of fighting back, many Americans have become complacent and apathetic. A good point to make is that it's really difficult to fight back...the vortex that this economic system has us sucked into is powerful and disempowering. There's no time to fight, and little energy. (Exactly what you said about 'having a mortgage, six kids...', etc.) The economics we live by have us hogtied, and industry and finance know that. But something's got to break soon...Americans typically will only tolerate so much.
I despise people that discount opinions based on age, BUT...at 21, I don't think Primal has been rode hard and put up wet enough times to appreciate how hard life can be. I wanted to change the whole world at one time, then I wanted to just change the country. Now I'm happy to just keep my shit together.
I admire Primal's ideals and wish him all the luck in the world, changing the system, but nothing good will come of criticizing me and you.
I admire Primal's ideals and wish him all the luck in the world, changing the system, but nothing good will come of criticizing me and you.
If you recall, at 21 people like you look a lot like part of The System, Bruce. ;-)
First of all our capitalistic ideals are not second rate. Nobody has better capitalistic ideals than we do. Secondly, I haven't pushed anybody out of the way to get foriegn oil since the '73 embargo. Don't confuse the government/industry with individual Americans. Come back when you've got a wife and 6 kids, a mortgage and bills up to your ears. Then tell us how much you're worrying and what you're doing to straighten out the system. What do you live forever? Why? So you can tell other people they should be doing what you think is best for them?Isn't that what we pay them for?. No, you wake up.
If you don't like the was this country operates you've got 2 choices. Either find someplace else to live or change it...I honestly suggest the latter.
On the other hand, if you just want to tell me what to think, how to feel and how to live......well, let's just say, Homey don't play dat. ;)
where in that breif paragraph did i imply that you were spposed to think the way i do?
i really dont have the time to dignify your ignorance as it might take me all day.
let me guess, youre also republican?
and if our capitilistic ideasl arent second rate then how come our country is in such deep debt to other countries that its frightening?
Damn, P.M.
Cool..... now that you can but your own beer w/out a fake ID you can tell all the rest of us idiots how to run the country.
If I were you I'd move to one of those countries over ther somewhere that has already adapted the perfect government that you have seemed to have masterminded.
IMO, there's only one thing worse than a commy bastard.... & thats a commy bastard living in MY country and pissing and moaning 24/7. Sheesh.....
i may only be 21 but i am well versed in politics among other things. just because im not antiquated does not mean i do not care to uphold some form of political awareness.
and older people like you are part of what is wrong with this country, please leave your 1950's leave it to beaver mentality at the door, kthnx.
youre happy as long as uncle sam is patting you on the head, keeping your wallet fat, and shoving food down your 9 kids throat. the real american dream.
there is no american dream, which is why its sad that people like you bought it hook line and sinker.
meanwhile the majority of this country is destitute, without any form of healthcare because they cant afford health insurance, on the streets, starving etc.
pull your head out of your ass and look around. every principal this country was founded on was to further the rich man.
isnt capitalism great?
But he's been "mad for fucking years"! :rolleyes:
if you knew anything about good music you might know that its from the beginning of breathe by pink floyd.
edit: and im lacking a certain appendige that would qualify me as a "he"
Now you're totally wrong here. The government is doing exactly what they are being paid to do....by those who pay the most.....to benefit those that pay the most. You surely don't think that piddling few thousand dollars you kick in counts, do you?
Perhaps you mean they aren't doing the job they were elected to do.
I despise people that discount opinions based on age, BUT...at 21, I don't think Primal has been rode hard and put up wet enough times to appreciate how hard life can be. I wanted to change the whole world at one time, then I wanted to just change the country. Now I'm happy to just keep my shit together.
I admire Primal's ideals and wish him all the luck in the world, changing the system, but nothing good will come of criticizing me and you.
you get an a for being totally presumptuous. ive probably faced more trial in my 21 years than you have in your entire life time.
Mellow out, y'all. PM, I'm relatively new here, but I do know that nobody here got where they are now easily. Er, except maybe me.
I've been mad for fuckin' years, absolutely years, been over the edge for yoinks, been workin me buns off for bands...
The song, however, is Speak To Me. Up until the music starts, it's Speak To Me, THEN it becomes Breathe.
you get an a for being totally presumptuous. ive probably faced more trial in my 21 years than you have in your entire life time.
Give yourself an A for being presumptuous. And give yourself an A+ at kissing your own ass.
If you recall, at 21 people like you look a lot like part of The System, Bruce. ;-)
And they'd be right, I am part of the system. What they don't understand is if it weren't for people like me, it would be much, much worse.
People like me, who have "raged against the machine", and been slapped down so many damned times we've learned to pick out fights more carefully.
Where do you think, "Think globally, act locally", came from?
Primal thinks I haven't got a clue when actually I've been there, done that.;)
I understand why Primal's frustration with my "ignorance", but my attempt at a humorous response stems from trying not to give advice because....
and if our capitilistic ideasl arent second rate then how come our country is in such deep debt to other countries that its frightening?
The way that it works is that other countries are in deep debt to us.
Nobody's paid us for WWII yet. Oh wait, I kind of remember hearing that maybe Finland did ...
My sig line contains a quote from a book that you have to read.
Where do you think, "Think globally, act locally", came from?
Rationalization and cognitive dissonance. :-)
It's actually quite possible to get good advice from elders. But, like every other cohort or demographic group, some of them are assholes. You have to be selective.
Nobody's paid us for WWII yet. Oh wait, I kind of remember hearing that maybe Finland did ...
Well, actually,
lend lease payments from the UK might be completed at the end of this year.:yelgreedy
BTW, at no point have we lent out the
trillion dollars in debt that are held in Asia.
[SIZE=2]Together, the East Asian countries have accumulated foreign currency surpluses of nearly $1 trillion, much of it held in US Treasury bonds denominated in dollars.[/SIZE]
there is no american dream, which is why its sad that people like you bought it hook line and sinker.
It may not look like it but there is an "American dream". Read some history on English life & law in the 16th and 17th centuries, then read the Articles of Confederation, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Remember that the rest of the western world was living under monarchical rule at the time. In fact what we accomplished was
extraordinary. And the fact that we're still here, bitching and moaning, means that we've succeeded in holding onto these democratic ideals. Give credit where due.
Yeah, we've lost our way...who hasn't? In fact many times. And many times we found our way back. If America is known for one thing it's its constant state of change and flux. Don't give up.
I don't doubt it one bit. I'm in the middle of this book, Nickel and Dimed and it has really opened my eyes as to why people are trapped in low wage jobs, not to mention why no one has time or energy to stand up for anything, anymore. I have no doubt the system is this way by design, either.
Excellent book...sad and depressing, but pulls us out of the trees to see the forest. And there's no question that the vortex has given industry, government and the wealthy a free pass for decades. Thank you Mr. Greenspan, et al..
I think it goes like this
The teenager understands 20% of the world, and believes s/he understands 80%.
The adult understands 30%, and believes s/he understands 60%.
The elderly adult understands 40% and believes s/he understands 40%.
Now you're totally wrong here. The government is doing exactly what they are being paid to do....by those who pay the most.....to benefit those that pay the most. You surely don't think that piddling few thousand dollars you kick in counts, do you?
Perhaps you mean they aren't doing the job they were elected to do.
The people I've voted for CAN'T do their job because they're outnumbered by an administration and Congress that WON'T let them.
I despise people that discount opinions based on age, BUT...at 21, I don't think Primal has been rode hard and put up wet enough times to appreciate how hard life can be. I wanted to change the whole world at one time, then I wanted to just change the country. Now I'm happy to just keep my shit together..
I know exactly how that goes...but at the same time, that's like saying the system accomplished its mission...to so discourage change, to turn such a deaf ear, that there's no alternative but to hunker down, nose to the grindstone, and try to survive. Also known as oppression.
At 21 maybe Primal is frightened by the current conditions. I know I was - way back when. And way back then we did something about it. We marched, took tear gas, bled, some died, but we persisted, and our world changed. Difference today? Not enough of the young are united under a common banner. They're the only ones who are free enough of the vortex to get out there and make the change happen...that's what pisses me off when youth complains. Don't like it....THEN DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT...we did...it's now their turn.
I think it goes like this
The teenager understands 20% of the world, and believes s/he understands 80%.
The adult understands 30%, and believes s/he understands 60%.
The elderly adult understands 40% and believes s/he understands 40%.
:) Well said! Which is why we "seasoned" folk shouldn't be put off by the extremism of youth. In fact, we have a responsibility to pass on the knowledge if we want our kids to have a liveable world.
And then the world changes.
Whoa, don't diss teens. I don't believe I understand more than 70%!
:) Well said! Which is why we "seasoned" folk shouldn't be put off by the extremism of youth. In fact, we have a responsibility to pass on the knowledge if we want our kids to have a liveable world.
:notworthy
70%?...so with that blissful ignorance, get the hell out there and make the system change!! If your house & car won't be re-possessed, if you aren't hogtied to a job, if you don't have debt in the thousands, if you have no kids to feed and haven't had to face your mortality, then you have the time and wherewithal to make it happen! Make it happen, Cap'n!!
Now I'm happy to just keep my shit together
amen brother
:notworthy
Watch out Bruce...your cynicism will wake up my cynicism and I'm not sure we wanna go there.....:D
I think it goes like this
The teenager understands 20% of the world, and believes s/he understands 80%.
The adult understands 30%, and believes s/he understands 60%.
The elderly adult understands 40% and believes s/he understands 40%.
Which gives rise to
Any man who is not a socialist at age 20 has no heart.
Any man who is still a socialist at age 40 has no head.
and
When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much the old man had learned in seven years.
and
Hire a teenager! (while he still knows everything).
Well, you can possibly survive on low-wage jobs as long as you or your family
doesn't get sick.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2]In 2001, 1.458 million American families filed for bankruptcy. To investigate medical contributors to bankruptcy, we surveyed 1,771 personal bankruptcy filers in five federal courts and subsequently completed in-depth interviews with 931 of them. About half cited medical causes, which indicates that 1.9–2.2 million Americans (filers plus dependents) experienced medical bankruptcy. Among those whose illnesses led to bankruptcy, out-of-pocket costs averaged $11,854 since the start of illness; 75.7 percent had insurance at the onset of illness. Medical debtors were 42 percent more likely than other debtors to experience lapses in coverage. Even middle-class insured families often fall prey to financial catastrophe when sick.[/SIZE][/FONT]
So as part of the mandatory credit counseling which people have to go through as part of the new bankruptcy law, I guess the advice given boils down to "don't get sick".
"Even middle-class insured families often fall prey to financial catastrophe when sick."
The sickening part of it is that in order to get any help from the state in dealing with a catastrophic illness the family first has to use up all savings, all assets, liquidate holdings, and sell their home. Which means, to an older retired self-sufficient couple, everything they worked for has to go and because they're older, they won't have the time or opportunity to build it all up again. So in order to live, you must give up your life and all you worked for.
And all so stockholders and leaders of the insurance industry and their lobbyists can pocket their returns.
Anybody seen "Bullworth"?
70%?...so with that blissful ignorance, get the hell out there and make the system change!! If your house & car won't be re-possessed, if you aren't hogtied to a job, if you don't have debt in the thousands, if you have no kids to feed and haven't had to face your mortality, then you have the time and wherewithal to make it happen! Make it happen, Cap'n!!
...Er, I was kidding.
I have a firm enough grasp of the world to know what I'm talking about, else I don't talk about it. I will always fully admit when I don't have the expeirence to know something. I can usually hold my own with people older than me... at least, I think I can.
I DO know that I know more about the world around me than most people my age. Not because I'm arrogant; I
am arrogant sometimes, but I know when I'm being so. I know that I know more because I
WANT to know more. I can't say the same about the majority of fifteen-year-olds.
Again, mellow out.
if you knew anything about good music you might know that its from the beginning of breathe by pink floyd.
Uh-huh. Your point?
edit: and im lacking a certain appendige that would qualify me as a "he"
Ah, sorry. Bad assumption on my part and a lack of profile field. Thanks for clearing that up.
At 21 maybe Primal is frightened by the current conditions.
you hit the proverbial nail on the proverbial head right there.
what frightens me even moreso is that the majority of people my age just dont care.
im scared to think about what our future will be like for americans.
most of my generation is undereducated, highschool dropouts (me included, i decided to take a hard road) unaware of anything that is going on in this country or with foriegn relations etc.
which gives the system the perfect oppurtunity to rape us.
i will say this, i come from one of those lower class families that cant even afford health insurance. its infuriating.
my mom has a drug problem and cant even get into a government funded rehab because her income is "too high"
so they might as well say youre poor, not poor enough, i guess youre fucked.
and my fear is that things like that will only get worse as time goes by.
think about the progression of corruption from the 1950's until now. it was a swift sociological downfall, more crime rates, more drugs, etc.
i constantly fear that we're hurling ourselves towards destruction. and our governemnt is so concerned over keeping drugs off the street that they miss so many rapists and cerial killers and pedofiles its not even funny. we are not focused on the real issues and that my friend is scary.
and thats only one little sliver out of a big pie of things that are not right and that are more than likely detrimental to this country's future.
our elders are not preparing our youth to run this country in the future.
and i'd love to do something about it but im at a total loss. no one else i know even cares enough. :(
and to any one ive offended i'll come out and say this.
i express my opinions with force because i like the forceful results i get from other people.
anything you believe in should always be carried out with a sense of passion.
and im not one of those little girls who will let everything you say go into one ear and out of the other.
i do take into account that youre older and have been alive longer than me. and it would be a flat out lie to say im not still angst ridden and confused.
but conversations like this help me make sense of it all.
ive always firmly believed that you can never have an educated opinion on anything unless you look at it from every different angle that you possibly can, hence i thrive on debates like this.
i really didnt mean to come up in here acting like a snotty know it all which is pretty much the aire i gave off.
im just a passionate person when it comes to what i believe in.
my apologies.
Primal, no apologies necessary. The only problem I see is you were yelling at the choir. Stick around and I think you'll find most of the people in the Cellar are aware of the problems with our system and society.
It's a good place to bounce ideas or vent, just don't assume we're the enemy.
You'll fit in fine.:thumb:
PM.....
Please Do voice your opinions with force. That has always been my (as well as many others here) practice. I have and will feel strongly enough about my values , especially when it comes to these US, that I was and am willing to fight and die for them.
Do yourself a favor and don't be offended when someone else voices theirs. I never look down to 'younger folks' as I remember being your age. You are the future of our country.
Ever consider the Marine Corps? You could really put your views in action there. Of course you'd have to move out of Mom's house.
Welcome to the Cellar. I think we'll get along just fine.
thanks for being so understanding guys. i think im going to like it here. :)
thanks for being so understanding guys. i think im going to like it here. :)
Primal -- CapnHowdy and Bruce said it all. And I'm a passionate among apathetics too....which is why I joined the Cellar. Being able to hang out with opinionated, outspoken, intelligent, sometimes obnoxious, funny, folks...it's kinda like home ;)
So, one newbie to another, stick around, we'll have some fun, maybe even find some answers!! :jig:
i must say the atmosphere around here is much different from other boards im on.
people are clever, but extremely childish on other boards.
i like the fact that there's older people around here. perhaps i can learn a thing or two. ;)
I know I have.
You oughtta check out the politics and current events forums. They're fun, and sure to raise your blood pressure.
What it means to be an American
It means you will learn to hate our youth footb... er soccer programs which crush individual initiative in favor of a boring team game which won't get us anywhere in the cup.
sometimes obnoxious
Wait a minute, only
sometimes obnoxious? I mean, here I am, putting in my best effort day after day, and all I rate is
sometimes obnoxious?
I mean, what's next,
mostly harmless?:DPartially passionate. :p
Frequently fickle, often obstreperous.
i must say the atmosphere around here is much different from other boards im on.
people are clever, but extremely childish on other boards.
i like the fact that there's older people around here. perhaps i can learn a thing or two. ;)
I so know what you mean. ;) Welcome!
Frequently fickle, often obstreperous.
Partially passionate. :p
:lol:
Quote:
Originally Posted by richlevy
Frequently fickle, often obstreperous.
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce
Partially passionate.
Who's good at "Higgledypiggledy verse?" These have the right rhythm.
(Higgledy Piggledy
Anna Karenina
Went off her feed and just couldn't relax
So Higgledy Piggledy
Anna Karenina
Went to the station, and lay on the tracks.)
Anna Karenina,
Partially passionate...
"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
Teddy Roosevelt (usually misattributed as part of a presidential speech in 1907, actually quoted from a 1919 letter)
Being an american... even with the above arguments, it means being one of the luckiest people on earth. This is not sappy patriotism, trust me. The difference between America's life-style and that of most of the world is incredible- even our lower classes are not that bad off. Being an American means... being a little more adventurous, more willing to take risks, and taking for granted a prosperity that other peoples would be willing to kill for. It means rarely being satisfied with our lot in life, and never being satisfied with our government. Both are good. And it means tolerance of others, enforced if necessary. The last is more important, I think, than most people ever realize. Being an American should mean not letting our prosperity lure us into complacency regarding the most important things- namely, our rights, our freedoms, the separation of church and state, and the balance in our government. But, nope.
I agree with all you said... but with one added thing, responsibility. Most have forgotten that.
Freedom also means the freedom to be exposed to other's freedom. Speech we don't like, the freedom to change the channel, to NOT listen to certain music or got to a restaurant if they let people smoke on their private property... that we have decided that we are only free if all think like us makes me very sad.
America is dying.
Everyone's gonna be free
But they hafta agree to be free
They hafta agree to be less free than me
'Cause I rule the world, you see...