XXXXX Them to Hell! New Katrina Video
A new videotape has just been released showing that Bush was warned about the levees and the problems involved with the superdome before Katrina ever hit. From
here
... warnings of the coming destruction — breached or overrun levees, deaths at the New Orleans Superdome and overwhelming needs for post-storm rescues — were delivered in dramatic terms to all involved.
All of it was captured on videotape.
The Associated Press obtained the confidential government video and made it public Wednesday, offering Americans their own inside glimpse into the government's fateful final Katrina preparations after months of fingerpointing and political recriminations.
"My gut tells me ... this is a bad one and a big one," then-federal disaster chief Michael Brown told the final government-wide briefing the day before Katrina struck the Gulf Coast on Aug. 29.
The video prompted Democratic leaders on Capitol Hill to reiterate their calls for a new investigation into the federal response to Katrina. House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi of California said Thursday the video "points out the need for an independent commission" to review events surrounding the hurricane.
Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid of Nevada said the video "confirms what we have suspected all along, that this Administration did anything they can to hide what really happened." He said the administration "systematically misled the American people."What?
When Harry Reid talks, I stop listening. Is this supposed to mean that the administration caused the hurricane? That they "hid" it? What should we do with this information?
They lied through their teeth, Noodle. Bush whined on and on that no one thought the levees would fail. This new video shows him being warned in no uncertain terms that this was likely to happen.
What should we do with this information?
Well, it's proof that Bush lied when he said that nobody expected the levees to fail. If you like to impeach presidents who lie, you could start there. Of course, he wasn't under oath, so it doesn't count. Right?
Edit: Marichiko beat me by a few minutes. My habit of opening all unread threads in a new tab in Firefox and then reading through them sometimes hurts my response time.
What do you all now think of Brown in light of these new revelations? He seems more on the ball then any of the idiots in the administration would have us believe. Was he a scapegoat?
More from
The LA TimesThis shows that Brown knew what was coming and told Bush. Talking about the problem is only half the battle. You're supposed to act on that knowledge. Did Brown actually do anything?
So you think they thought the levees would fail? Or that Brown, who until this point has been a favorite target of the anti-Bush crowd, is now a martyr? Or maybe that there was something they could have done in the 24 hours between Brown's warning and Katrina's landfall? I'm always willing to believe that a politician has lied, or at least that their handlers have caused them to. But I still don't know what the point of this information is, beyond "SEE?!?!? BUSH IS TEH EVILZ!!"
You think the mayor of NOLA and the LA governor would have responded if Bush had said, "You guys are hosed. We're sending our fleet of federal City Evacuation Busses to forcibly remove all your citizens from their homes, because your levees are going to fail tomorrow"? You think that a response of any kind on the federal level would have prevented the hurricane from doing the damage it did? Again, what did you want them to do with the information? Remember, it came from a "horse breeder with no experience" or whatever you were calling Brown a couple weeks ago.
snip
Edit: Marichiko beat me by a few minutes. My habit of opening all unread threads in a new tab in Firefox and then reading through them sometimes hurts my response time.
Sure Glatt, everybody knows by now that you are a chronic and habitual Marichiko post–cribber. You have a monkey on your back. We want to help you, but you have to admit you have a problem.
BTW, noodle, I don't think anyone is saying bush could have stopped the hurricane, (at least anyone who is taking their meds) I think they object to his being more full of shit than the Agean stables.
Just my take.
So you think they thought the levees would fail? Or that Brown, who until this point has been a favorite target of the anti-Bush crowd, is now a martyr? Or maybe that there was something they could have done in the 24 hours between Brown's warning and Katrina's landfall? I'm always willing to believe that a politician has lied, or at least that their handlers have caused them to. But I still don't know what the point of this information is, beyond "SEE?!?!? BUSH IS TEH EVILZ!!"
You think the mayor of NOLA and the LA governor would have responded if Bush had said, "You guys are hosed. We're sending our fleet of federal City Evacuation Busses to forcibly remove all your citizens from their homes, because your levees are going to fail tomorrow"? You think that a response of any kind on the federal level would have prevented the hurricane from doing the damage it did? Again, what did you want them to do with the information? Remember, it came from a "horse breeder with no experience" or whatever you were calling Brown a couple weeks ago.
They KNEW the levees were likely to fail. They didn't just THINK it. In regard to Brown, I didn't give an opinion, I was merely asking people's take on him now.
As far as the mayor of NOLA and the LA governor, I think they would have jumped up and down and said, "THANK YOU, Mr. President! We'll get the word out to our people right away!" The mayor of NOLA had been screaming about the levees for years. The Mayor KNEW better than any other official there what a terrible plight N.O. was in.
Yeah, it ticks me off when the President of this country tells bald faced lies to the people. I'd have respected Jr. a little if he'd been man enough to say, "Well, we had conflicting information," or "Federal response was terrible, and I am sorry. Here's how we are going to fix it."
If you can't admit to a problem, then you sure as hell aren't going to be taking any steps to solve it, now are you?
PS Yeah, Foot, I've been meaning to PM Glatt about that nasty habit of his. :lol:
Quotes and other information previously posted in The Cellar at
Tape: Bush, Chertoff Warned Before Katrina.
What should we do with this information?
Impeach George Jr and repeatedly cite this post as an example of mrnoodle who is so politically brainwashed as to deny. Two solutions. Does mrnoodle have any? I didn't think so.
I wasn’t privy to the filmed briefing for the administration or the information the feds have available.
I only have the weather channel, the media and the internet. However, I knew the Gulf coast was in deep shit several days before Katrina hit.
If I knew, why didn’t the people that lived there know? Why were they waiting for the governments, state and federal to tell them? A shitload of people did leave before Katrina hit, I know some of them. Did they sneak out like the Baltimore Colts, in the middle of the night, without telling their neighbors?
We already know politicians are scum.
We already knew Bush is a lying bastard or the stupidest schmuck on the face of the Earth. I’ll go with the former.
This story simply confirms what we already knew, but to his longtime supporters, it won’t matter.
But I still don't know what the point of this information is, beyond "SEE?!?!? BUSH IS TEH EVILZ!!"
To reaffirm that “We The People” have to get off our collective asses and hold their feet to the fire. All of them, every “public servant”, whether elected, appointed or hired. And if they don’t respond, throw them out. It’s as much our fault as it is their’s.
I wasn’t privy to the filmed briefing for the administration or the information the feds have available.
I only have the weather channel, the media and the internet. However, I knew the Gulf coast was in deep shit several days before Katrina hit.
If I knew, why didn’t the people that lived there know? Why were they waiting for the governments, state and federal to tell them? A shitload of people did leave before Katrina hit, I know some of them. Did they sneak out like the Baltimore Colts, in the middle of the night, without telling their neighbors?
We already know politicians are scum.
We already knew Bush is a lying bastard or the stupidest schmuck on the face of the Earth. I’ll go with the former.
This story simply confirms what we already knew, but to his longtime supporters, it won’t matter.
To reaffirm that “We The People” have to get off our collective asses and hold their feet to the fire. All of them, every “public servant”, whether elected, appointed or hired. And if they don’t respond, throw them out. It’s as much our fault as it is their’s.
You forget one very important thing, Bruce. Low income people who were just making it paycheck to paycheck. Katrina had the audacity to strike at the end of the month. A lot of low income people didn't have the money for a tank full of gas to get the hell out of Dodge or the price of a bus ticket. And where were they supposed to go? Where would they stay once they got there? Sure, if you had a car and the money for a tank of gas and friends somewhere willing to take you in, it was a no brainer. The people who ended up in the Superdome were the elderly, the handicapped, the sick, and the children - the people most in need of assistance and the precisely the people who did not get it.
Yes, every politician's feet should now be blackened over the flame of our national outrage. "Shudda planned," is a response lacking in understanding of the realities of life among the lower income members of our society.
The people that ended up in the Superdome are poster children, a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of people that didn't leave. People up where Buster lives just had to ride in out the best way they could but those along the coast were foolish to think they could beat that storm.
New Orleans was very, very lucky it didn't get a direct hit..... it would have been devastated by Katrina, before it flooded.
And where were they supposed to go?
Nowhere.....they were supposed to die. It's God's will. :cool:
"Shudda planned," is a response lacking in understanding of the realities of life among the lower income members of our society.
Having been a member of the lower income society, I disagree.
I planned, saved, and went without a lot of the niceties I now enjoy. Granted, I was only supporting myself on the $7800.00 ($650.00/month) I made, but I was able to buy food, pay rent, electric, water, and phone bills, and still keep enough stashed for an emergency, all without a dime of public assistance. Certainly if I had children it would have been a little different, but the people I knew that had children that were in a comparable income bracket to me got A LOT of public aid, that set those who had children on the same footing as those of us without.
Reality is that you should never live beyond your means, keep a reserve because life can be unpredictable, and don't whine about the choices you make or the priorities you set.
I don't mean to sound harsh, but I have little sympathy for those in our society that make bad choices and then expect the rest of us to fix it for them.
I've made bad choices (I doubt there's anyone on this planet that hasn't), suffered the consequences, and worked hard to set my life straight.
Oh, and as far as the problems with the levees in NOLA go, the most likely candidates to report problems with the levees may perhaps have been those who were supposed to be doing maintenance on them. On the scenes kind of people. The Army Corps of Enginneers. They did report that the levees weren't strong enough to hold back a category 3. But nothing was done because of problems at the state and local levels (ie, payoffs to the right people.) This has been a LA problem long before W was president.
$650.00/month, eh? How long ago? How old were you? Why were you working a job that paid so little? Did you have medical expenses? Did you have family that you could call on in case of an emergency? What made you mend your evil ways and become a productive member of society?
Please give your budget and circumstances at the time.
If you were in college, it SO does NOT count.
If you had a SINGLE family member to turn to, it SO does NOT count.
If you were under 25 and living with a gang of your friends, it SO does NOT count.
If you tell me that within the past 5 years, you were working a job, came from a low income family, had little or no education, did not have a single benefactor or anyone you could turn to, yet still pulled yourself up by your bootstraps, please tell all.
Here's a sample budget for someone living today in my low priced community:
studio apartment rent $350.00
utilities $ 50.00
food $160.00
bus pass $ 50.00
laundry $ 30.00
personal care $ 15.00
cleaning supplies $ 15.00
clothing $ 10.00
____________________________________
Total $680.00
That's not a dime for anything else left over. That's the meanest most frugal, rock bottom budget possible. Please explain to me how and where you accomplished this on $30 LESS in terms of today's dollar.
So the victims of Katrina deserved their fate, eh? You deserve to be one of THEM if that's how you think.
I used to live on $200.00/month. BFD.
$650.00/month, eh? How long ago? How old were you? Why were you working a job that paid so little? Did you have medical expenses? Did you have family that you could call on in case of an emergency? What made you mend your evil ways and become a productive member of society?
I used to live on $200.00/month. BFD.
The year was 2002. So only 4 years ago. I was 33. Actually I made most of that in 4 months out of the year doing taxes January through April, so it really averaged 650/month over the whole year. The rest of the year I worked temp jobs for something to do. No medical expenses. I have fairly good health. No family. No parents to fall back on. Wasn't in college, or living with friends. I shouldn't be mistaken as a productive member of society, as my lifestyle was my choice.
This year I made about 3x what I made then, mostly to support my disabled husband. We still don't live extravagantly. I was always able to make MORE I guess, because I had a decent education and I went to college (no degree, though.) I just chose not to.
Oh I've discovered that you can live on $0 per month, too. At that time I was living in a shelter and receiving food stamp benefits. Not a lifestyle that I would recommend. Didn't I mention that I've made bad choices too?
In the world contest of who's had it worse, I'd be disqualified before the first round. I've had too many breaks and too much luck in my life, and I'm hardly complaining, just offering a comparison.
Mari, if you (or someone you know) is getting an actual studio apartment for $350/month, you're living in paradise.
Most of the folks I know on public assistance (the ones without section 8 eligibility) are paying around $500/month for a single room, shared bathroom, no stove, no refrigerator.
When I first met Keryx, I was meking approx. $65K. I left that job and moved in with her. We have had ups and downs, but we remain together. now she works for a public utility and does very well. There was a time that I was sick with with no hope and homeless I made bad decisions to. Going into the service instead of collage was first. The nature of my condition is such that it comes and goes. We have a relationship that people dream about.
Let us get back on topic. Most of the people "stuck" in NOLA chose to stay, for whatever reason. It was thier choice. When I see footage of CG helo crews doing Katrina rescues alot of people do not want to leave thier homes. CG(Aux) members that were there have told me that they had to call on active duty Coastguardsmen to get people to leave. I am not saying that all people had the means to leave, but it seems to me that a vast majority stayed for thier own reasons.
To see me and a little of what I am about goto
www.frappr.com/fargonThe year was 2002. So only 4 years ago. I was 33. Actually I made most of that in 4 months out of the year doing taxes January through April, so it really averaged 650/month over the whole year. The rest of the year I worked temp jobs for something to do. No medical expenses. I have fairly good health. No family. No parents to fall back on. Wasn't in college, or living with friends. I shouldn't be mistaken as a productive member of society, as my lifestyle was my choice.
The rest of the year I worked temp jobs for something to do. No medical expenses
I rest my case. You lived on more than $650.00/month.
And, yes, Wolf, in my area its possible to find a little studio apartment for $350.00. I have a small, two bedroom cottage for $550.00.
Actually I made [COLOR=Sienna]most of that[/COLOR] in 4 months out of the year doing taxes January through April, so it really [COLOR=Sienna]averaged 650/month over the whole year[/COLOR]. The rest of the year I worked temp jobs for something to do.
I rest my case. You lived on more than $650.00/month.
What are you resting your case on? :eyebrow:
What are you resting your case on? :eyebrow:
Well, from what I understand, if she made $7,800/yr from H&R Block PLUS additional income from temp jobs - this would have made her monthly income
more than the $650.00/month she claims. If she really only made $650.00/month from H&R Block PLUS her temp jobs, I'd be damned interested to know what her monthly budget was and how she managed to save money in addition. Even Wolf commented that my $350/month for a studio apartment sounded like paradise. So, where's this lady's paradise?
To elucidate further: Take home of $650.00/month would mean that she was earning under $6.00/hr at age 33. Well, stuff happens and I can feature an honest, hard working person earning some small sum per hour for whatever reason. But this lady claims she attended college and was STILL earning less than $6.00/hour at age 33 with no children and presumably anywhere from 10 to 15 years in the workforce. OK, it happens. But then she goes on to claim that she even SAVED money on that wage and turns her nose up at Katrina victims who need assistance.
THERE'S where I begin to dig in my heels. I want to know just what this woman paid for rent, food, utilities, and where she was living and what her circumstances were. I want to know what she would have done had she been stricken by a major illness or disability. I want to know how she felt about life in "paradise" on a budget such as what I outline which is REAL world and includes not so much as a dime left over for a cup of coffee somewhere, never mind your own phone or God forbid, cable TV or an Internet connection. How the hell did she pass her time and did she ever wish she had the money for a pair of nylons or some make-up to look pretty and go somewhere? Did she ever wish that she could put a dime in the collection plate at her church?
She did very, very well for herself on $650.00/month and I'd love to know how she did it so I could share her wisdom with the disabled of Colorado who must make do with $580.00/month. I'll spare them her scorn, however. :eyebrow:
This flappin thread has lasted for about 20 post and now is about peoples income. What I'd like to know! WTF are any of you going to do about things?
Do you stay on your elected offical's asses about things? How do you know when they slip a big fucking into a bill? I'm not smart enough to know how. In fact most who vote on a bill, later claim if they had only know that was included would have voted against. BULLSHIT. I live around 100 miles north of the coast. The gov. hasn't given me a fucking thing. We had winds of around 100mph. Run! Hell this is the area where the coonasses come to hide from a storm. Anyway not one nail has been driven to fix my house except by me. FEMA passed the buck to insurance co. and SBA. Still waiting on a loan from them, because insurance isn't paying enough to fix. But still no contractor to do the work. I'm on the list.
I'm better off than a hell of a lot of people. And have got more help and offers of help from this board and others.
Most of this should have been post in buster's bs thread I know.
VOTE WISELY, but sometimes there's no one to vote for. yuk
Busterb, no lady like comment from me. You have no idea how many e-mails and letters I've sent, how many tears I've shed, how many sorry ass excuses I've heard, including one's like keryx's. Why don't you go ask her. She seems to have all the answers.
Back on the topic at hand. It is probably a safe assumption that a lot of the people that stayed with Katrina bearing down on them were just like me with Francis, Jeanne and Wilma here in South Florida ... I am staying with my house to protect what I have rather than take to a road and hopefully get somewhere that doesn't get hit. (the picture is a little different down here as we have to flee up Florida for 400 miles just to get to Georgia). Having gone through those storms in my house I now feel a bit foolish for sitting here when Francis was off the coast with 155 mph winds as my house probably wouldn't be here now if it hadn't weakened. But people prefer to stay and hope the worst will pass by to the west, east, north or south.
Also, look around where you live and think of the worse case scenario and think about what it would take to guard against it. No government can possibly come close ... did Bush and crew know that the levees could be breached? absolutely. Do they also know that NYC will get hit by a catastrophic flood as a result of a direct hurricane hit? absolutely. So do they spend 100 billion of the taxpayer's dollars today to guard against it? Tough call .... what about a tsunami on the west coast? going to happen someday? probably. So do we spend billions or trillions today to guard against it?
Back on the topic at hand. ...
Do they also know that NYC will get hit by a catastrophic flood as a result of a direct hurricane hit? absolutely. So do they spend 100 billion of the taxpayer's dollars today to guard against it? Tough call .... what about a tsunami on the west coast? going to happen someday? probably. So do we spend billions or trillions today to guard against it?
No one need spend $billions IF our leaders are not mental midgets. Look at what Clinton did after a previous disaster equivalent to Katrina. FEMA moved towns rather than rebuild them in the wrong place. Then when flooding arrived only two years later, so many were not flooded again.
One lesson still not learned are levees in St Louis that are too close to the river.
Humans who create unnecessary death is called the Ninth Ward in New Orleans. Rebuilding homes there makes zero sense. Making it even worse is the Mr GO. What about Bay St Louis or Pass (forgot the exact name). Why build any residences within one half or one full mile of that coast? Because ego is more important than intelligence. Those seafront establishments should be open parks, recreation centers, business, and other facilities that people need not flee to during inclement weather. It's called basic intelligence which too many $multi-million home owners cannot be bothered to agree with.
NYC is another potential disaster. No where near as likely as New Orleans. A hurricane must hit NYC just right. How likely? Well NJ has not had a hurricane strike in over 100 years. Somehow the hurricane has to turn left at just the right time and strike NJ in Monmouth or Ocean County. Then major floods would travel up the Raritan and Hudson Rivers with catastrophic damage. Knowing this, we build today assuming a 10 or 20 foot flood may someday arrive. For example, ventilation shafts for Holland and Lincoln tunnels are constructed assuming water that high.
BTW, some who have intelligence have authorized or done these studies. Flooding is defined on Long Island maps for each type of hurricane. I believe Category 2 puts JFK airport completely underwater. This cannot happen under MBAs such as George Jr who stopped all such programs in FEMA - cost control mentality. Just another reason why good Americans should be daily calling for his impeachment.
All this does not require billions. It is part of normal planning. It means homes - the one place all go to in worst of weather - must be the safest place in town. It means building based upon intelligent zoning and people thinking like engineers - not like lawyers and MBAs.
Well, from what I understand, if she made $7,800/yr from H&R Block PLUS additional income from temp jobs - this would have made her monthly income more than the $650.00/month she claims.
That's not what it says. She said, " I made
most of that" doing taxes and "averaged 650/month over the
whole year". The rest came from temp jobs.
Your budget has holes. $50 buss pass? I've lived at lot of places that don't even have busses. $30 for laundry? $15 cleaning supplies? What are you, a clean freak? Hell, you might as well get maid service. :p
I lived in Plaquemines Parish, LA for years and lost all but my car in Betsy, 1995? (Opps 1965) Of course that parish was, is ruled by a few. Any one remember Judge Perez on tv? It's a low place with only one road out. When you get people comming from offshore the road can get clogged becaused there were only 2 bridges across the river from the westbank. I remember a few times on IS 10 where the assholes turned the 2 lanes into 5, because Betsy was fresh in their minds. Anyway from the WaPo. "Neighboring Plaquemines Parish, by contrast, issued its order Aug. 27, helping to hold the number of storm deaths there at three."
BTW What I meant about ruled. You couldn't buy rolling papers or anything like that in stores. The jail at Point-a-la hatch? was rough I heard.
When I first worked offshore the oil cos. didn't pay much attention to storms, but after they got it broke off in ther butts a few times they learned. That became a pain. Living where i'm now at. Sometimes you would be out of, say Camron,LA and get sent in. Time you got home was a call to come back.
Stay if you like. It always gave me a few days off.
That's not what it says. She said, " I made most of that" doing taxes and "averaged 650/month over the whole year". The rest came from temp jobs.
Your budget has holes. $50 buss pass? I've lived at lot of places that don't even have busses. $30 for laundry? $15 cleaning supplies? What are you, a clean freak? Hell, you might as well get maid service. :p
See, this is what gets me. You people who don't have to count pennies have no idea of the realities. Fine, how did you get around in those places with no bus passes and what did it cost you? And, NO, it does NOT count if you were a membr of the armed services, a CO rep who had the red carpet laid before him or any other such circumstance. Tell me about the time when you lived in Anytown, USA and worked 36 hours a week at the local hotdog stand and how you got there and what it cost you. Also, please describe how you got to church on Sunday, how you stopped over at your best friend's house and how you managed to make it to the Local Elderly Fascists for Amerika rally and what the costs were.
In Philly
a WEEKLY transit pass costs $18.75. Tokens and transit passes are good on buses and subways but not on commuter rail lines.
In Colorado Springs, Colorado a monthly bus pass (20 trips) WITH transfer fees to my town costs $50.00. I can give you the number of the local transit authority if you don't believe me. PM me.
Philly must have the deal of the country on laundramats. Here the laundromat charges $1.25/load /per wash and $1.00/per dry. I do 4 loads of laundry a week. I'm an uppity poor person who changes my sheets weekly and showeres every day with clean towels and a clean change of clothes. I suppose you'd be complaining about how bad I smelled if you ever happened to stand in line behind me waiting to buy your bus pass. Anyhow, my Swiss, out of control laundry standards come to $9.00/wk or $36.00/month. My estimate was for smelly non Swiss background members of the population.
OK, so I lied on cleaning supplies:
Monthly costs:
Laundry soap (on sale) 2.99 x 2 = $5.98/m
Fabric softener (on sale) 2.99
Dish soap (on sale)= .99, x 2 = $1.98
Vacumn cleaner bags (on sale) one per month = 1.99
Bleach (on sale) $1.09/gal
Pine-sol type floor mopping detergent –generic- (on sale) $2.00
Ajax type sink and bath scrubber (generic brand) =.99
Total $14.
00 mas o menos
Colorado state and city sales tax 7% = .98
Sum = $14.98
I LIED EVERYONE! My cleaning supplies costs are ONLY $14.98 NOT $15.00! Can you ever possibly forgive me? And I was really, really stupid to have picked up a road flare thinking it was an old (and therefore, harmless) stick of TNT. And I'm ever so sorry I tip toed back and put it back when everybody explained to me how stupid I was. And I apologize from the bottom of my heart for EVER thinking "flippent" was my friend and telling her about the Cellar. And I am really, really sorry I ever mentioned having to be homeless, camped on the San Miguel River. And I apologize from the bottom of my heart expecting ANYONE here to understand about mild traumatic brain injury or diffuse brain injury and I'm really, really stupid. Hitler was cool and Rommel couldn't have fought his way out of a paper bag and Katrina happened only to low lifes who deserved to die.
Now.
Are you ALL happy?
Well, why the hell NOT?????????????? :eyebrow:
Your budget has holes. $50 buss pass? I've lived at lot of places that don't even have busses. $30 for laundry? $15 cleaning supplies? What are you, a clean freak? Hell, you might as well get maid service. :p
And Mari left out a $1000 dog, plus upkeep from her calculations.
Wrong, the dog of many names was $600 and eats caviar every day. :p
And Mari left out a $1000 dog, plus upkeep from her calculations.
Now, now...don't be snippy. :lol: She wasn't posting about herself, but the people she champions.
See, this is what gets me. You people who don't have to count pennies have no idea of the realities.
Your making the assumtion that everyone that in comfortable, has always been comfortable. Not so grasshopper, everyone has had ups and downs due to "shit happens" and/or bad choices. Some, myself included, have had to squeeze the poop out of that buffalo on the nickel for a condiment.
I'm an uppity poor person who changes my sheets weekly and showeres every day with clean towels and a clean change of clothes.
Because you can.....you're fortunate to have that option, many don't.
Fine, how did you get around in those places with no bus passes and what did it cost you?
Walk, hitch a ride, bicycle, don't go......cheap.
I LIED EVERYONE! My cleaning supplies costs are ONLY $14.98 NOT $15.00! Can you ever possibly forgive me? And I was really, really stupid to have picked up a road flare thinking it was an old (and therefore, harmless) stick of TNT. And I'm ever so sorry I tip toed back and put it back when everybody explained to me how stupid I was. And I apologize from the bottom of my heart for EVER thinking "flippent" was my friend and telling her about the Cellar. And I am really, really sorry I ever mentioned having to be homeless, camped on the San Miguel River. And I apologize from the bottom of my heart expecting ANYONE here to understand about mild traumatic brain injury or diffuse brain injury and I'm really, really stupid. Hitler was cool and Rommel couldn't have fought his way out of a paper bag and Katrina happened only to low lifes who deserved to die.
Now.
Are you ALL happy?
Well, why the hell NOT??????????????
(raising hand) No......because you're making it personal. You take any rebuttal to what you post, as a personal attack. Just because I don't agree with what you post doen't mean I think you're an idiot. I may, but if I don't say so, don't assume that I do, OK? :p
Now, now...don't be snippy. :lol: She wasn't posting about herself, but the people she champions.
Your making the assumtion that everyone that in comfortable, has always been comfortable. Not so grasshopper, everyone has had ups and downs due to "shit happens" and/or bad choices. Some, myself included, have had to squeeze the poop out of that buffalo on the nickel for a condiment.
Because you can.....you're fortunate to have that option, many don't.
Walk, hitch a ride, bicycle, don't go......cheap.
(raising hand) No......because you're making it personal. You take any rebuttal to what you post, as a personal attack. Just because I don't agree with what you post doen't mean I think you're an idiot. I may, but if I don't say so, don't assume that I do, OK? :p
Sorry, Bruce. I have the flu which has NOT put me in a sunny mood. Point taken.
No one need spend $billions IF our leaders are not mental midgets. Look at what Clinton did after a previous disaster equivalent to Katrina. FEMA moved towns rather than rebuild them in the wrong place. Then when flooding arrived only two years later, so many were not flooded again.
It does cost billions unfortunately....millions don't go far these days (sad thought).
And your point is right on target, why build most of NO back to begin with?? Lets see, live below sea level ... in an area that can get hurricanes ... behind corp of engineers designed and built levees??? are you nuts??? Down our way we can see what the COE has done to the everglades and know that they are clueless :eek:
They lied through their teeth, Noodle. Bush whined on and on that no one thought the levees would fail. This new video shows him being warned in no uncertain terms that this was likely to happen.
I think the reflex Bush-haters are making a lot of hay here by ignoring the difference between "overrun" and "breached".
"Overrun" to me suggests waves washing over the top of a levy due to storm surge (with the water able to drain away), contrasted with a levy being *breached*, a total mechanical failure with the levy no longer holding back the waters it contained before the storm, obviously a much more severe problem.
As the newsletter editor of the Phil-Mont Mobile Radio Club, I've had occasion this week to review the club archives regarding their emergency operations in the Delaware Valley during the flooding associated with Hurricane Diane in August of 1955. That storm is of particular interest to me because I remeber it quite well: I was three years old and living in New Hope PA at the time...so it left quite an impression to be persisting fifty years later.
With that for comparison, I'll keep my own counsel as to who I think is "whining" today.
I remember that storm very well, too, Maggie. It torn up New England pretty well.
When the 30 ft wide, 2 foot deep Scantic River became a half mile wide and took out the only bridge to get off our mountain, it took the Army three weeks to come and put up a Bailey bridge.
I thought that was pretty damn good considering we were just less than 100 people in no danger, we even had power, just couldn't go to work.
Meanwhile the cities and towns along the Conneticut River were really fucked up and hundreds of bridges, all over the map, were gone.
I liked Ike. :D
It does cost billions unfortunately....millions don't go far these days (sad thought).
It only costs $billions when problems are not addressed up front. Meanwhile, I hope I have not given the impression that NYC has seriously addressed or solved their same problem. Indeed, NYC is on a top ten list of potential hurricane disaster spots. I cited the ventilation shafts for Holland and Lincoln tunnels because they are not high enough for (I think) a 10 foot surge. Since NJ has not had a hurricane in 100 years, then NJ coastline is ripe for major destruction. Again, construction that makes absolutely no sense.
Riding the Avalon causeway (20 miles south of Atlantic City) one fall when a NEer was pushing high tide higher. Those homes were cut off by flooded roads. I rode down a dry road and minutes later found myself in many inches of water. And this was not even a major storm. How can new homes be built here? Government insurance is one reason. No concept what a hurricane is really about - another reason that is too widespread along the NJ shoreline. So, for same reasons that New Orleans 9th ward is being rebuilt by George Jr, we also have $billion problems elsewhere.
Studies were done. But did we have leaders, or MBAs and lawyers where decisions need be made. One good thing about Clinton once he fixed his administration; he got problems solved. A responsible person could never say that about George Jr which is why people who talk nicely about the mental midget are driven by political agendas rather than advancing America. Only a mental midget or political corrupt officials would advocate rebuilding the 9th ward and some other dangerous parts of New Orleans.
In Upper Darby (Delaware County, Pennsylvania, adjacent to Philadelphia), there was
major damage in a flood from a rainstorm a few years back. This flood was part of the
Delaware River Basin. Part of this was due to the freak nature of the rainstorm which dumped 4-5 inches of rain in an hour. However, another component, if I remember correctly, had to do with the fact that the watershed in that area had been completely mismanaged. This caused the State to force the township to comply with the
Watershed Act to fix the issue.
Watershed management and flood planning are very difficult for non-engineers to understand, which is why politicians never seem to have the will to address them until something goes wrong.
Again, construction that makes absolutely no sense.
I agree that building NO back (below sea level) makes no sense ... and building on barrier islands as well makes no sense ... but ...
By this standard, you should remove all structures along the entire coastline of Florida (and Alabama, MS, LA, TX, GA, SC, NC, etc, etc). These areas are all in harms way and it is only a matter of time before catastrophe strikes.
BTW, history channel showed the Katrina event as a modern marvels episode last night ... they were saying it is going to cost 30+ billion just to rebuild the levees around NO ... and it would take a lot more to make it cat 5 sustainable.
Bashing Bush for this is just plain monday-morning quarterbacking
Bashing Bush for this is just plain monday-morning quarterbacking
It was Bush and the Republicans who cut funding for maintaining this country's infra-structure in favor of going over and destroying the infra-structure of Iraq and giving Halliburten a pie in the sky contract to rebuild a foreign country while ours goes to hell.
If you own ANYTHING you need to maintain it. That's common sense, not Monday morning quarterbacking.
When I was in college I needed to get a ride out to Kentucky to visit my Dad one spring break. I looked at the university ride finder's board and there was a kid going to Virginia who needed someone to share driving and gas. He had a nice little red sports car that he had loaded the trunk down with cases of Coors. Typical frat rat. Well, I figured I could endure him for the 16 hours it would take to get to Lexington.
When it came my turn to drive, I noticed that the red oil check light kept flashing on. I pointed this out to him, and he said, "Ah, it always does that. Don't pay it any mind." I thought he should at least check the oil level when we stopped for gas, but he was more concerned about re-arranging his precious stash of Coors which he apparently intended to sell for some vast profit to ignorant hillbilly's in VA who didn't know about beer. Whatever.
Well, sure enough, the engine seized up completely around St. Louis, MO. You can only drive a car for so far with no oil in the engine and that little red car didn't have a drop of oil in it. My dad wired me the money for a plane ticket on into Lexington and the last I saw of the frat rat, he was sadly drinking his Coors and watching the tow truck driver haul his car off for either a new engine or a trip to the junkyard.
Somehow, I can imagine W. pulling the same trick in his younger days. :eyebrow:
New Orleans flooded because of 40 years or more of mismanagement of monies intended for disaster planning and levee improvement.
Bush is not causing milk to sour, nor is he responsible for the birth of the one-eyed kitten.
New Orleans flooded because of 40 years or more of mismanagement of monies intended for disaster planning and levee improvement.
Bush is not causing milk to sour, nor is he responsible for the birth of the one-eyed kitten.
I knew I liked you Wolf! Bingo ... it is easy to blame the person in charge at the moment for a long history of mistakes ... I find Bush at fault for a lot of things these days (like what I think is a mismanaged conflict in Iraq, regardless of whether we should be there or not) but I do not hold him responsible for not rebuilding the city of NO or forceably evacuating the 20-30k people who were either too dumb or too poor to evacuate. Now he is culpable and so it the government at large (including that numbnut governor) for not having a better response AFTER the storm.
New Orleans flooded because of 40 years or more of mismanagement of monies intended for disaster planning and levee improvement.
Well the levees did what they were intended to do. Levees were not constructed nor intended for this storm. Despite comments from a mental midget president, everyone expected the levees to be breached - and they were. The mental midget was told that repeatedly.
Why does George Jr declare rebuilding where no rebuilding should occur? That is classic mismanagement. 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. That is a mental midget president who would rebuild homes below sea level AND exposed to severe hurricane disaster. The mental midget president only demonstrates why we end up spending $billion later to fix problems that never should have existed.
So where did the mental midget go as a predicted New Orleans disaster happened? He did a campaign fund raiser in CA. Now that is total mismanagement. The levees were not mismanaged. But the president is a classic example of mismanagement. A CA fund raiser that weekend! I believe it was to Orange County. Never for one minute say good things about the mental midget president and then call yourself a patriotic American. A president is so anti-Amerian as to even lie about the levees. So naive as to instead go to CA on a fund raiser when Brownie was desperately calling for assistance from everyone. His pleas to George Jr are even on video tape.
That is where mismanagement was. So badly mismanged that George Jr tried to lie - decalare the levees would do what they were not constructed to do. The levees did as intended. To find mismanagement now ongoing, 85% of problems are directly traceable to this president. He would even rebuild the Ninth Ward because his own popularity is more important than America.
When leadership was most needed, George Jr went on a campaign fund raiser to CA. Show me how that is responsible management. When Brownie was begging for top management to cut through red tape - ie let the Bataan participate in the rescue - where was George Jr? New Orleans is but another trophy in George Jr's trophy case.
Bush is not causing milk to sour, nor is he responsible for the birth of the one-eyed kitten.
Can you prove that? :lol:
It was Bush and the Republicans who cut funding for maintaining this country's infra-structure...If you own ANYTHING you need to maintain it. That's common sense...Somehow, I can imagine W. pulling the same trick in his younger days.
The young are frequently foolish...one needn't look far to see *that* principle in action. Perhaps even so foolish as to think "what you can imagine happening" is relevant. But I missed the part where "maintaining this country's infrastructure" became a *Federal* mandate.
The young are frequently foolish...one needn't look far to see *that* principle in action. Perhaps even so foolish as to think "what you can imagine happening" is relevant. But I missed the part where "maintaining this country's infrastructure" became a *Federal* mandate.
You're right. Let's go blow up the interstates. Stupid Federal government! :rolleyes:
Last time I checked, even the interstates are maintained by the state governments. Perhaps there's some fed money involved, but the work is done by the states.
Or maybe that's me...PennDot fixes INTERSTATE 83, 80, 78, (all the time as a matter of fact it seems).....
Despite comments from a mental midget president, everyone expected the levees to be breached - and they were. The mental midget was told that repeatedly.
It turns out he was told repeatedly that they might be
topped. The original story, page 4:
"I don't think any model can tell you with any confidence right now whether the levees will be topped or not but that is obviously a very, very grave concern," Mayfield told the briefing.
This was clarified by the AP:
Clarification: Katrina-Video story
ASSOCIATED PRESS
WASHINGTON (AP) _ In a March 1 story, The Associated Press reported that federal disaster officials warned President Bush and his homeland security chief before Hurricane Katrina struck that the storm could breach levees in New Orleans, citing confidential video footage of an Aug. 28 briefing among U.S. officials.
The Army Corps of Engineers considers a breach a hole developing in a levee rather than an overrun. The story should have made clear that Bush was warned about floodwaters overrunning the levees, rather than the levees breaking.
The day before the storm hit, Bush was told there were grave concerns that the levees could be overrun. It wasn't until the next morning, as the storm was hitting, that Michael Brown, then head of the Federal Emergency Management Agency, said Bush had inquired about reports of breaches. Bush did not participate in that briefing.
Now, one might argue Bush doesn't have the mental capacity to comprehend the difference between topping and breaching. But we do, right? In one of them, a little water goes over the levee and the event is over. In the other, there's a catastrophic failure and the city is flooded. Agreed?
If we don't understand yet, let
this blogger explain:
Personally, I expected topping of the levees, I expected water to run up I-10 into New Orleans East, I expected some of the inner city canal levees to be topped and some of the St. Bernard and Jefferson parish levees to be overtopped by the storm surge. I expected flooding, you always expect flooding in New Orleans during a hurricane, but then I expected the pumps to take over and pump the water out of the city. That was the defense plan for New Orleans. That's always been the plan. If water comes into the perimeter protected by levees, collect it in the canals and pump it out. A levee failure, like that experienced during Katrina, can't be "anticipated" because it's a catastrophic total failure of the levee. If you "anticipate" the breach of the levee, why even rely on the levee system at all, a breached levee might as well be no levee at all. For centuries New Orleans has relied on the levees to protect it, and for centuries, a levee breach was not "anticipated".
Levee "topping" however is a completely different story, and NO ONE has ever talked about not anticipating the levees being topped. In fact, almost everyone talked about them being topped.
Last time I checked, even the interstates are maintained by the state governments. Perhaps there's some fed money involved, but the work is done by the states.
Or maybe that's me...PennDot fixes INTERSTATE 83, 80, 78, (all the time as a matter of fact it seems).....
Total Cost of the Interstate System ($Billions) in some recent years
as reported to congress (the Fed's share is the number in bold print)
1958 37.622
33.952
1961 41.000
37.000
1965 46.800
42.000
1968 56.500
50.640
1970 69.870
62.500
1972 76.300
68.260
1975 89.200
79.520
1977 104.300
93.240
1979 112.900
100.800
1981 133.932
119.685
1981 Rev 119.000
106.200
1983 123.300
109.900
1985 120.500
107.200
1987 121.000
107.600
1989 124.900
111.000
1991 128.900
114.300
The Revised 1981 Estimate reflects Interstate System completion as redefined by the 1981 Highway Act.
You're right. Let's go blow up the interstates. Stupid Federal government! :rolleyes:
I thought you might mention that. Go look up where the
National Defense Highway System came from, and why. Note that it's not an excuse to fob off all infrastructure responsibilities onto the Feds. Far from it. Thank goodness.
I thought you might mention that. Go look up where the National Defense Highway System came from, and why. Note that it's not an excuse to fob off all infrastructure responsibilities onto the Feds. Far from it. Thank goodness.
Roosevelt, Truman and Ike pushed for it as part of the nation defense. The Feds still pay the lion's share of it to the present day. :rtfm: Levee's aren't as much a part of the national defense as Interstates?
Now, one might argue Bush doesn't have the mental capacity to comprehend the difference between topping and breaching. But we do, right? In one of them, a little water goes over the levee and the event is over. In the other, there's a catastrophic failure and the city is flooded. Agreed?
No. Topping is not like the water that slops over the edge of a swimming pool, splash, splash, mop it up.
National Geographic and Smithsonian plus a show on Discovery or PBS (forget which), years ago, explained how a storm larger than cat 3 could raise the level of the lake 4 to six feet higher than the levees. In that scenario there aren't enough pumps in the country to keep New Orleans from flooding. Especially when you consider; A- most of the pumps don't have their own power supply and B- the pump crews were evacuated before the shit hit the fan.
Breach or not, in a big storm they're screwed and FEMA should have known it. :eyebrow:
Last time I checked, even the interstates are maintained by the state governments. Perhaps there's some fed money involved, but the work is done by the states.
Or maybe that's me...PennDot fixes INTERSTATE 83, 80, 78, (all the time as a matter of fact it seems).....
The Feds have no highway department so they hire the states to do the actual work and pay them with the Federal Highway Trust Fund which is funded by fuel taxes they collect.
Federal Motor Fuel Excise Tax is 18.4 cents on gasoline, 13.6 cents on LPG, 24.4 cents on diesel fuel, 18.4 cents on gasohol, 19.4 cents on aviation gas, and 4.4 cents on jet fuel.
Levee's aren't as much a part of the national defense as Interstates?
Erm...no.
As far as I can see, levees only "defend" the land they're protecting from the water that the land would be under if it weren't for the levees. Such land doesn't need "defending" unless you've decided to live there...in whch case I'm highly disinterested in sharing the cost of your folly, whether it's there, on the Jersey Shore, or on the Outer Banks. If there's some other national defense implication to the levees in NO you'll have to point it out more clearly.
Ike supported the highways because he had experience trying to move troops and material overland during WWI.
After Hurricane Dianne, the Corps of Engineers came though and rebuilt the bridge from New Hope to Lambertville. I was never satisified as to the explanation of why that was their job, but I was glad they did it...the ice cream shop was on the Jersey side.
Breach or not, in a big storm they're screwed and FEMA should have known it.
Everybody knew it. It is why Mayor Nagin got on the radio Saturday night with a personal appeal for everyone to leave New Orleans. A famous and retired judge in NO was not going to leave until he heard that Saturday night appeal. Katrina struck Monday morning which is why that Judge safely got out of town.
Max Mayfield of the National Hurricane Center was so concerned that he did something he never did. Not once ever in something like 20 years. Max personally called every major leader. He did this to make sure everyone knew that Katrina was the big one. Did he call the president? Never said. But the president and everyone in that video conference were told this was the worst case disaster of Hurricane Pam and all previous simulations. Hurricane Pam was the disaster that everyone knew to be the worst possible disaster. (Notice it was known to be so bad that I used the word 'the' multiple times.) So bad that Max Mayfield did something he never does. Personally call warnings to everyone. Katrina was that much a disaster. Only reason that top management could not know - by definition - that person would have to be anti-America.
From those video tapes, Brown also knew this AND was literally begging -all but got on his knees - begged everyone to even violate rules to get him assistance. IOW he knew from Hurricane Pam that he was in trouble and was telling that to a mental midget president.
George Jr - as any mental midget would do - sat there, listened, never asked a single question, and never gave any direction. Even the Three Stoogers would have been better leaders. But then the mental midget president is also an MBA. No way around the reality of that fact either.
Contrast this with a leader who - by definition - was patriotic. During the upper Mississippi floods that were easily of same scale, Clinton asked incisive questions AND provided direction. Clinton did what anyone with minimal intelligence would do. Therefore those Upper Mississippi floods were only another interesting news story. What the mental midget president did was condemn some people to death. George Jr literally meets the definition of anti-American as well as someone with an MBA background. In fact, using the definition of patriotic American, even bin Laden is a better patriotic American than George Jr. At least bin Laden grasps reality. No wonder George Jr did not try to get bin Laden. It required him to make a decision - to ask incisive questions - which George Jr never once did even the entire day of 11 September 2001.
Is above an insult? Insults do not come supported by five years of examples and blunt facts. In every disaster, George Jr did nothing while people were dying. Not just in New Orleans. During 911 and the Indian Ocean Tsunami are previous examples. Never forget where the USS Lincoln task group sat for five days doing nothing as George Jr fiddled. Never forget where the USS Bataan sat for five days as George Jr fiddled. Facts that Rush Limbaugh liars hope good American don’t learn.
Does George Jr know who Nero was? No, it was more important to go to CA on a campaign fund raiser. There is no way for a single decent American to deny these facts. None whatsoever. George Jr has only done again what everyone should expect from a mental midget - with a history of letting people die - and then casting blame elsewhere.
Anyone who disputes this better have hard ass facts - and video tape. Fans of George Jr - hearafter called fools - cannot dispute this without lying - without posting classic Rush Limbaugh half truths and propaganda. IOW fans of George Jr would have to be as anti-American as the mental midget to deny this post.
After Hurricane Dianne, the Corps of Engineers came though and rebuilt the bridge from New Hope to Lambertville. I was never satisified as to the explanation of why that was their job, but I was glad they did it...the ice cream shop was on the Jersey side.
But the better biker bars were on the New Hope side. We didn't need NJ's ice cream. Don't worry. Drink happy.
But the better biker bars were on the New Hope side.
Not in 1955.
Everybody knew it...mental midget president...mental midget ...Three Stoogers...mental midget president...Clinton...by definition patriotic did what anyone with minimal intelligence would do...What the mental midget president did was condemn some people to death....literally meets the definition of anti-American...bin Laden is a better...bin Laden grasps reality. ...George Jr did not try to get bin Laden....George Jr did nothing while people were dying....Does George Jr know who Nero was?...There is no way for a single decent American to deny these facts...mental midget - with a history of letting people die...Anyone who disputes this better have hard ass facts...Fans of George Jr - hearafter called fools - cannot dispute this without lying...half truths and propaganda...fans of George Jr would have to be as anti-American as the mental midget to deny this post.
No wonder nobody listens to the left anymore.
After Hurricane Dianne, the Corps of Engineers came though and rebuilt the bridge from New Hope to Lambertville. I was never satisified as to the explanation of why that was their job, but I was glad they did it...the ice cream shop was on the Jersey side.
No wonder nobody listens to the right, anymore. :right:
By the way, I want my tax dollars back for
your ice cream.
By the way, I want my tax dollars back for your ice cream.
If you can prove what you paid in Federal taxes in 1955, I'll gladly refund to you my estimate of the fraction of that sum that allowed my parents to take me over the 202 bridge to Lambertville for ice cream after the hurricane.
The ice cream itself was paid for with private funds.
That said, being able to move military materiale into New Jersey over US 202 was probably the defense-oriented rationale. Being that the bridge crossed a state line didn't hurt either...commerce clause, y'know.
No wonder nobody listens to the right, anymore.
When a screed is that shrill, it doen't much matter what the spin is.
If you can prove what you paid in Federal taxes in 1955, I'll gladly refund to you my estimate of the fraction of that sum that allowed my parents to take me over the 202 bridge to Lambertville for ice cream after the hurricane.
I figure you owe my Mom 3.5 cents plus interest. I'll let you off the hook on my Dad since he is now deceased.
I figure you owe my Mom 3.5 cents plus interest. I'll let you off the hook on my Dad since he is now deceased.
I said *my* estimate, and offered interest (or inflation adjustment). I take it you paid no Federal taxes personally in 1955, so the offer is void.
3.5 cents is a massive overestimate, by the way...take the ratio of the cost of bridge repair to the federal budget for 1955 (59 billion), then multiply by the taxes paid. Then multiply by the fraction of our ice-cream-based usage aganst the total usage of the bridge from the time of the repair to the present (51 years).
Not bad for a 100 year old bridge.
Thanks for setting our priorities straight.
No wonder nobody listens to the left anymore.
More quotes from someone that MaggieL considers a lefty extremist:
It is called "the Bush Doctrine." It is a prescription for permanent war for permanent peace, though wars are the death of republics. "No nation," warned Madison, can "preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare." ...
In 2003, the United States invaded a country that did not threaten us, did not attack us, and did not want war with us, to disarm it of weapons we have since discovered it did not have. His war cabinet assured President Bush that weapons of mass destruction would be found, that U.S. forces would be welcome with garlands of flowers, that democracy would flourish in Iraq and spread across the Middle East, that our triumph would convince Israelis and Palestinians to sit down and make peace.
None of this has happened. Those of us who were called unpatriotic for opposing an invasion of Iraq and who warned we would inherit our own Lebanon of 25 million Iraqis were proven right. Now ourt nation is tied down and our army is being daily bled in a war to create a democracy in a country where it has never before existed.
With the guerrilla war, U.S. prestige has plummeted. The hatred of President Bush is pandemic from Marrakech to Mosul. Volunteers to fight the Americans have been trickling into Iraq from Syria, Saudi Arabia, and Iran. In spring 2004, revelations of the sadistic abuse of Iraqi prisoners at Abu Ghriad prison sent U.S. prestige sinking to its lowest levels every in the Arab world. We may have ignited the war of civilizations it was in our vital interest to avoid. Never has America been more resented and reviled in an Islamic world of a billion people. ...
The Bush threat of war upon nations that had not attacked us was unprecedented. Truman never threatened war to stop Stalin from building atomic bombs after Russia tested one in 1949. LBJ did not threaten war on China when it exploded a nuclear weapon in 1964. While it had been U.S. policy to prevent the spread of nuclear weapons, Russia, Britain, France, China, Israel, India, and Pakistan had all acquired nuclear weapons without serious retribution from the United States.
Yet Bush had put Iran, Iraq, and North Korea on notice. Should any of the three seek to enter the circle of nations possessing nuclear weapons - some of which date back to World War I - they risked a preemptive strike and war to disarm them and effect "regime change" in their countries. Though the president may not have known it when he issued his ultimata, North Korea, and Iran already had secret nuclear programs underway.
Still, President Bush had no authority to issue those threats. The Constitution does not empower the president to launch preventive wars. To attain Churchillian heights, Bush's speechwriters had taken him over the top. But, as events would demonstrate, Bush fully intended to go where his rhetoric was leading him. ...
5) We attacked, invaded, and occupied a prostrate Arab nation that did not attack us, and did not want war with us, and could not resist us, on the pretext that Iraq had played a role in the 9/11 horrors and was building weapons of mass destruction to attack us. These were lies to cover up our greed to control the oil wealth of Iraq, destroy a defiant Arab nation, and erect an American empire in the Middle East.
...
By attacking and occupying an Arab nation that had no role in 9/11, no plans to attack us, and no weapons of mass destruction, we played into bin Laden's hand. We have given Muslims from Morocco to Malaysia a unifying cause and recruiting slogan: "Drive the Americans out of Iraq!"
According to MaggieL, above is also lefty rhetoric. She knows because she has been properly indoctrinated into right wing conservatism. Or has she? Maybe she is so wacko extreme right that even right wing conservatives are pinko lefties? The above quotes are from Pat Buchanan - a famous right wing conservative. To MaggieL, Pat Buchanan is a leftist because MaggieL is that wacko right wing extreme. To MaggieL, centrists are also lefty pinko extremists. It happens when political agendas replace intelligent thought.
One can be conservative and smart. Buchanan did not let wacko extremist rhetoric promote lies about WMDs and threats of a toothless Saddam. Remember MaggieL - you were first to post insults without any supporting facts. Poltical dogma is not a replacement for intelligent thought. You could have posted facts in defense of your opinions. But that is not what fringe extremists do.
Intelligent conservatives label George Jr and so many in his administration as incompetent. Apparently it takes longer for logical thought to get out to extremist fringe. Your opinions are even 'right wing extremist' to Pat Buchanan.
Insult - one posts accusations not based in reality and not even justified by facts. MaggieL, that is the difference between what you posted and what a responsible poster does. You would be better advised to provide supporting facts with your posts. Above is an example of how intelligent conservatives reason.
...take the ratio of the cost of bridge repair to the federal budget for 1955 (59 billion), then multiply by the taxes paid.
$59 billion in 1955 is $440 billion today. Extremists and lying politician do this - post a half fact.
That $34 billion in 1958 is $160 billion in 1991 (instead of only $114 billion that was spent) and is $233 billion in today's money. Marichiko has demonstrated how the US spends less on American infrastructure - but will spend $400 billion to liberate people who did not want to be liberated. Once we provide all numbers, then one must ask why George Jr is running record deficits - and yet spending less on schools, highways, etc.
Meanwhile there is no way around the fact that a president was told how disastrous Katrina would be - and did nothing. Geroge Jr did not even ask one simple question. Not one question. Responsible leaders - with intelligence - ask many questions. Challenge their subordinates to do better. George Jr did what an MBA would do.
Then George Jr outrightly lied by declaring, "Nobody expected the levees to be breached." and "Brownie, you're doing a heckuva job." This is someone that MaggieL would consider responsible? Only fringe extremists could suggest that.
Posted capital expenditure numbers accurately demonstrate that the US government now spends less on federal infrastructure. $80+ billion for a space station that does no science? Hundreds of $billions for an 'ill advised' man to Mars mission - for the greater glory of George Jr. No problem. $400 billion to liberate people who don't want to be liberated? No problem.
A few $billion to save one of the most successful science tools in the history of mankind? No money left. Spending $billions on an anti-missile defense system that does not work and that destroys another world treaty? No problem - plenty of cash for that political agenda.
The word commonly used on both left and right is incompetent – except where fringe extremist rhetoric replaces facts, the numbers, and reality.
More quotes from someone that MaggieL considers a lefty extremist
I can tell the difference between that level of discourse and chanting "mental midget". Can you?
I don't consider myself a conservative, but rather a small-l libertarian, verging on objectivist. I didn't say anything about "insults" or "fringe" or "extreme". I did mention a "shrill screed", because that's exactly what I saw. I've seen it before...directed at Nixon. I'm not at all a fan of Nixon now nor then, but I recognize the same drumbeat now in the Bush-hating crowd that drove the Nixon-hating crowd then--a crowd I was very much part of at the time.
The problem with that approach to politics is that it confuses "criticism" with "critical thought". It's very comforting to hang out with a crowd of like-thinking Bush haters and swap chimp jokes, or foam at the mouth about the conspiracy theory du jour. In addition to the warm sense of cameraderie it confers upon the participants with the addition frisson of beleving they're not only righteous, but intellectually superior to those poor red-necked red-staters outside the cult.
But the real tragedy of it all is that that style of thought seems to relieve the participants of any need to offer anything viable as an alternative. "I hate Bush, just like alll my friends. Isn't that enough? Hey, do you TiVo the Daily Show?".
In 2000 I voted for Gore. Not enthusiastically. In 2001 I became glad that that was the minority opinion, because the post-cold war pax didn't last anywere near as long as we'd hoped, and the idea of Gore at the helm in such times was almost as chilling as Clinton, or (Goddess help us) Carter.
The truly frustrating thing for me about Bush and his buddies is that there's nobody in the opposition I can like better...and that a pretty low bar to pass.
$59 billion in 1955 is $440 billion today. Extremists and lying politician do this - post a half fact.
Frink says 370 billion...but I said in the sentence before that one I wasn't offering an inflation adjustment. You wouldn't want to post half a fact now, would you?
Thanks for setting our priorities straight.
Ah...but *you're* the one who wanted me to pay for my fifty-years-ago ice cream.
*My* priority is not making the Feds the solution to evey problem, and then whining when you discover they aren't. "The Feds" is *us*. We pay for it all. When we demand miracles, or indemnity from every misfortune or bad decsion, *we* pay the bill. Of course, the alternative theory is that the Federal government is properly a tool for removing money from people who have it and giving it to people you like, under the guise of "the common good".
Not sure I get your point with the poster-children pic. And I'm *really* not sure it's neither staged nor photoshopped. ("Frank! Frank! You need to misspell one of the words; it doesn't look like real graffiti at all! Just leave the 'e' off of 'please'...we gotta shoot this, blog it and get outta here.")
I'm sure it "represents a higher truth" though.
I'm wondering, if your ass is about to drown. Do you grab a can of spray paint or does one just float by? Perhaps it's part of must have storm survival gear. Opps forgot the flags.:smack:
Ah...but *you're* the one who wanted me to pay for my fifty-years-ago ice cream.
Sure, why not? Going by your philosophy, the Feds took money from my hard working folks in Colorado and gave it to people you liked, so you could have a bridge over to the ice cream shop. What common good was that? Put your money where your mouth is if you can get the ice cream cone away from your face.
*My* priority is not making the Feds the solution to evey problem, and then whining when you discover they aren't. "The Feds" is *us*. We pay for it all. When we demand miracles, or indemnity from every misfortune or bad decsion, *we* pay the bill. Of course, the alternative theory is that the Federal government is properly a tool for removing money from people who have it and giving it to people you like, under the guise of "the common good".
I thought Ayn Rand was cute when I first read her at age 16. Some of us get over it. Some of us don't. I have discovered that arguing with one of Ms. Rand's "true believers" is about as productive as arguing with one of Jim Dobson's. You got YOUR bridge and the hell with everyone else.
Not sure I get your point with the poster-children pic. And I'm *really* not sure it's neither staged nor photoshopped. ("Frank! Frank! You need to misspell one of the words; it doesn't look like real graffiti at all! Just leave the 'e' off of 'please'...we gotta shoot this, blog it and get outta here.")
I'm sure it "represents a higher truth" though.
If there had not been real suffering and unnecessary deaths in N.O., the question of the picture's validity might have a point to it. Whatever the origin of that particular shot (which I just picked off google at random), it stands for the very real nightmare lived by the people of N.O.
The writing does not appear to be that of an illiterate person. If I was faking it, I'd have enough sense to not make it look so pretty, but who knows and who cares? Want me to find some pictures of dead bodies, instead?
BusterB, they probably broke into a store and looted those items. People were actually barred from leaving NO, if you'll recall, and ended up camped on the highways.
Sure, why not? Going by your philosophy, the Feds took money from my hard working folks in Colorado and gave it to people you liked, so you could have a bridge over to the ice cream shop. What common good was that?
Ask the people who have used the bridge for free in the ensuing fifty years what good it was. Most of them were going someplace other than the ice cream shop.
Put your money where your mouth is if you can get the ice cream cone away from your face.
What's left of my money after the Feds get through with it *is* where my mouth is. And the ice cream was evidently eaten long before you were born. I had no say in how Federal funds were spent in 1955, but if you really want your Mom's share of the bridge repair back, send a self-addressed stamped envelope to me (address on request) and I'll send you a penny. Keep the change. Don't forget to pay inheritance tax on it; after all...it's not your money yet. But if you'll pay first-class postage X 2 to collect an imaginary <1 cent debt, you may have other financial management issues too.
You got YOUR bridge and the hell with everyone else.
It's not my bridge...it's everybody's bridge; "everyone else" gets to use it for free. And it wasn't built with your mom's taxes...it was only *repaired*.
The bifdge was originally constructed with private money, and operated for profit. It was then purchased by a non-profit that opposed collecting tolls (and perhps alos repairs). It was already fifty years old at the time of the repair. As I said before, today I'm not sure it made sense to have the CoE do it, but I was three years old and nobody asked me about it.
I've certainly seen a *lot* less-useful spending of Federal taxes since then.
What I find notable about the 1955 flood wasn't that the CoE repaired the bridge, but that nobody blamed Eisenhower or the Government for the flood or the resulting deaths and damage. They just
pulled together locally to help people out as best they could, and then cleaned up the mess afterward.
Whatever the origin of that particular shot (which I just picked off google at random), it stands for the very real nightmare lived by the people of N.O.
So I was right...it's that "higher truth" thing again, like Rathergate and "Farenheit 911". What matters isn't the provenance or context...only the propiganda value.
I don't question that there was much death and suffering
in the Gulf during and after Katrina. But somehow NO gets *much* more press from the "higher truth" crowd....it's that randomly Googled image posterchild star quality I suppose. What bugs me is the relentless attempts at political exploitation of that death and suffering...which is what that image stands for for me.
Why not just e-mail each other? Save UT the bandwith. BB ducks!
Ask the people who have used the bridge for free in the ensuing fifty years what good it was. Most of them were going someplace other than the ice cream shop.
My parents weren't among their number. The bridge was worthless to them.
What's left of my money after the Feds get through with it *is* where my mouth is. And the ice cream was evidently eaten long before you were born. I had no say in how Federal funds were spent in 1955, but if you really want your Mom's share of the bridge repair back, send a self-addressed stamped envelope to me (address on request) and I'll send you a penny. Keep the change. Don't forget to pay inheritance tax on it; after all...it's not your money yet. But if you'll pay first-class postage X 2 to collect an imaginary <1 cent debt, you may have other financial management issues too.
You claim to be a libertarian/adherant of Ms. Rand's. In your philosophy, that debt is NOT imaginary. My Mother is a staunch conservative-verging-on-neocon. I'll ask her if she'd like to be repaid just on the principle of the thing. If she demands her penny, I'll PM you with her address. You should have the conviction of your principles to eat the money for postage. I was born in '51, BTW.
I can see that you I could have endless fun arguing this thing with neither of us convincing the other in the slightest. I have an errand to run, I'll decide later if I want to continue this pointless squabble and reply to the remainder of your post.
Well I see no one reads my post, when there's a cat fight going on lol. And I've been accused of having tunnel vision! Hello repeat after me KATINA, storm, fema. :smack:
BusterB, if you'll note, I did respond to your first comment, and your second one got posted about the same time as I posted mine, so I didn't see it until just now. I agree! Who needs all the flying fur? And, yes, I very much realize that it wasn't just the people of N.O. who suffered. There was just as much bad stuff that went down in other areas, such as your own, and you haven't gotten much help either. :(
The "poster children" pictures were taken in New Orleans because in the surrounding areas of devastation, there was nobody to take pictures of.
They were all evacuated or swept away. :(
Who needs all the flying fur?
Well Mari thanks. But it takes more than one for the fur to fly. Hey I read most post on the cellar and cull damn few. I hate Maggiel, because she had the guts to keep flying and I dropped out. I see folks here, that there only problem is how to spend their money or where to go next.I wish them well. My only regret is I didn't make it around the world. I need Singapore to Tehran. I left Singapore in what would have coldass winter in Moscow, so didn't go that way. Wish I had.
I can tell the difference between that level of discourse and chanting "mental midget".
Apparently not because you’re political perspective is far right of Pat Buchanan. You defend THE reason for problems rather than admit to reality and the facts. And these are facts - not some shrill cry. George Jr is a mental midget. By now, MaggieL, I would have thought you knew better. The person who identified a ‘mental midget' is the same person who accurately corrected you about WMDs and the 'Pearl Harboring' of Iraq. Accurate because technical facts rather than political rationalization was used. Yes, MaggieL, you must concede that the president who also does not read his memos and PDBs, who provides corporate welfare to airlines, steel companies and big agriculture, and who even keeps drug prices excessively high with government subsidies therefore can only be a mental midget. (this from someone who was also quite critical of Democrats.)
To view Katrina video tapes and not admit George Jr is a mental midget - one can only be a fringe political extremist, or completely naive. Which is it? A "small-l libertarian, verging on objectivist" would never conclude anything less from five years of George Jr mismanagement. The "Mission Accomplishment" declaration alone is enough to suspect George Jr does not have sufficient geo-military-political knowledge. That he did not know what countries border Israel causes you to think he is smart? Objectivist and yet outright deny reality? It is called a contradiction - mutually exclusive. But it explains why Pat Buchanan is a pinko lefty.
Did you read busterb's post before attacking marichko over something irrelevant? Facts that predict, "MaggieL eventually conceded that George Jr is a complete idiot". How long before you decide to address what busterb posted?
This flappin thread has lasted for about 20 post and now is about peoples income. What I'd like to know! WTF are any of you going to do about things?
Do you stay on your elected offical's asses about things?
The answer starts by eliminating THE reason for these problems. The president is a mental midget. People died from that mismanagement. I don't see MaggieL providing any facts to prove otherwise. But somehow she just knows this could not be true. A "small-l libertarian, verging on objectivist" would never deny reality? In literally every crisis, this president could not make a decision; instead resorted to political rhetoric and incompetence. My god. Did you bother to notice every decision and every question this President asked in those video tapes? All NONE of them? Do you think his ten wasteful trips to New Orleans will fix things?
No wonder this president so fears Americans as to even wiretap without judicial approval. And now he wants to prosecute patriotic Americans who blew the whistle. But MaggieL somehow sees some intelligence inside this man. Please – fill the world with your wisdom rather than post emotional tirades about “shrill”. Yes, he is just smart enough to even lie, "Nobody expected the levees to be breached". Therefore he is a genius? Therefore busterb’s post is really a lie?
Meanwhile only a right wing fringe extremist would promote this propaganda -
I think the reflex Bush-haters are making a lot of hay here by ignoring the difference between "overrun" and "breached".
No wonder FEMA is so chock full of lawyers and MBAs. No wonder top professional disaster control experts were removed in 2000. What a genius this president was! Only an extremist would argue some difference between overrun and breached. But then again, even Pat Buchanan is a lefty.
How many more people and science need we kill to the glory of this president? My god - after a $450,000 campaign contribution, even the Davis Besse nuclear reactor with a potential Three Mile Island problem and a hole through its 6" carbon steel containment building was permitted to operate for months. Does the word ‘corruption’ have meaning among the fringe right wing? If the 'Fed is us', then why did WE keep the USS Bataan out of New Orleans as people starved? MaggieL - how many more people must die before you finally conceded this president is a mental midget. "Stupid is what stupid does". Even Forest Gump would not argue an irrelevant difference between 'overrun verses breached' - as you do to defend a mental midget. Clearly you will not help busterb by identifying a 'mental midget' reason for failure. Your denial is not due to a shortage of facts. This president has set the record for incompetance.
Facts say repeatedly that George Jr is a mental midget. Those who protect this mental midget cannot be bothered to admit why this Katrina problem lingers - will even deny what is on the video tape. If you have a problem with ‘mental midget’ – well its called denial – similar to a drug addiction. Pat Buchanan does not seem to have your ‘reality’ problem; attempting critical thought. Meanwhile I have this bad problem of identifying reality long before you are willing disavow your political biases. Others here should be reminded of how you made sweeping declarations in defense of a mental midget decision to invade iraq due to 911 attacks. Somehow you see enemies hiding everywhere. You did so using promises from that president. So how badly did he deceive you with lies three plus years ago? And still he is intelligent? Well, so was the fiendish Dr. Moriarity. Is he also presidential material? Or is he too liberal?
Where is your list of facts that proves intelligence in this president? Why do you forget to post such facts? Something about a shortage? Did he do anything to fix FEMA? Where are all those professional disaster managers brought in to replace George Jr political appointees? Need we wait till hell freezes over before you find some facts? When do you cite a single proposal to fix what makes the Katrina disaster fester so? Is this tenth visit by Air Force One suppose to solve such problems? Why do you have emotional problems with an accurate description: "mental midget"? A fear of reality? MaggieL has nothing but political rhetoric to prove this president is competent. Try looking for facts from Pat Buchanan or from Bill Kristol of the National Review. Oh. They are too pinko lefty. Or is it called reality - the competance of top management- ie the response to Katrina.
And yes, George Jr today called for rebuilding in the Ninth Ward.
Bush says by hurricane season the dikes will be patched and September of next year they'll be up to designed strength....... which is, I believe, CAT-3.
So why not rebuild the 9th ward? I mean, what are the chances of a Cat-4 or 5 every hitting the area? :rolleyes:
C'mon, TW. Don't beat around the Bush. You really don't like the guy, do you?
My parents weren't among their number. The bridge was worthless to them.
Sorry to hear that. Since they were presumambly voting citizens at the time (as neither you nor I were), perhaps they should have protested the expenditure at the time if they opposed it. While you're asking them if they beleive they are owed a fraction of a cent, you should ask them why they didn't...you may find the answer enlightening.
Or not.
You should have the conviction of your principles to eat the money for postage.
That's so contradictory as to be comical.
I "should have the conviction of my principles" to pay for you transport of money to you that you believe I owe you to your mom? Perhaps you have forgotten what the principles are.
The penny is here, not far (on a transcontinental scale) from the bridge itself.
Molon labe. Sorry to hear that. Since they were presumambly voting citizens at the time (as neither you nor I were), perhaps they should have protested the expenditure at the time if they opposed it. While you're asking them if they beleive they are owed a fraction of a cent, you should ask them why they didn't...you may find the answer enlightening.
Or not.
That's so contradictory as to be comical.
I "should have the conviction of my principles" to pay for you transport of money to you that you believe I owe you to your mom? Perhaps you have forgotten what the principles are.
The penny is here, not far (on a transcontinental scale) from the bridge itself. Molon labe.
Ms. Rand would have mailed back the penny she stole from a dear, little, white haired 86 year old lady in a heartbeat and spent the money on postage herself. Ms. Rand would also have been delighted to find herself with a very fiery and high spirited correspondent if she had, since my Mom is still sharp as a tack. Has this little tiff become absurd enough for you yet?
C'mon, TW. Don't beat around the Bush. You really don't like the guy, do you?
My first posts about George Jr suggested that he was a compassionate conservative. I also had doubts about Gore. Noted back then was how George Jr so often did legislation why working more often with Democrats. Then I started learning facts.
The China spy plane incident raised suspicions sharply. Others, I suspect, did not understand how George Jr (back then I attributed this to administration senior officials) all but wanted to get us into a shooting war with China. Destruction of the anti-ballistic missile treaty and militarizing space were decidedly factors that only a fool would propose. This because the anti-ballistic missile system does not work - and a long list of other reasons.
But George Jr did not stop. Statements from a Norwegian foreign minister warning that George Jr would destroy the Oslo Accords proved accurate.
Read the 911 Commission. No senior administration official - and that especially includes George Jr - did anything that day to protect Americans. MaggieL, who is still in denial, is encouraged - outrightly challenged - in her face - to state one thing that George Jr did to defend America that day.
The Indian Ocean Tsunami - five days later is when George Jr would even acknowledge that disaster. And only after other nations - our closest friends - would humiliate America for a 'no response'.
However, those who were still in denial - could not even bother to grasp reality - cannot deny Hurricane Katrina. Those video tapes prove that no one - not anything with minimal intelligence - could claim George Jr is a leader. He never even asked one question. He never once provided any direction. George Jr is incompetence extraordinaire - a mental midget.
George Jr demonstrated incompetence again during Hurricane Katrina. No one with minimal intelligence could deny these facts. No one.
But MaggieL - please tell us one thing George Jr did on 11 September to protect America? A smarter MaggieL will remain silent - because that is the answer.
MaggieL, who is still in denial, is encouraged - outrightly challenged - in her face - to state one thing that George Jr did to defend America that day.
Well, that's easy, he protected the President. What could be more important than that? ;)
Tw, post #80 does not, so far as I can tell, offer a single scintilla of proof that you could fix the Katrina devastation zone any better than the man you repeatedly insist is some kind of mental midget.
When all you do is carp, carp, carp, even the students down there chipping away at Katrina debris on spring break put you in the shade, you unspeakable, daily-demonstrated, puckered, piebald, radially symmetrical asshole. You're friendless, too, because of the preceding. You have a birth-control personality and you waste 'trons. Even Philip K. Dick, with his monomaniac fury at Richard Nixon, wrote novels between times.
You disgust me, for you have zero integrity, and many hallucinations.
You disgust me, for you have zero integrity, and many hallucinations.
Apparently the mental midget president's popularity is falling again. So he sent out his monkey to rally the troops - to again pervert reality.
Or maybe UG just went off his meds.
When all you do is carp, carp, carp, even the students down there chipping away at Katrina debris on spring break put you in the shade, you unspeakable, daily-demonstrated, puckered, piebald, radially symmetrical asshole.
So, why don't you tell us how you
really feel?:neutral:
You're friendless, too, because of the preceding.
Actually, I don't see your name appearing in the "Cellarites I'd like to meet list", and TW had 9 votes the last time I looked. This is 3 more votes than Bruce, who, for some unfathomable reason, the women seem to find quite studly.:D
Ms. Rand would have mailed back the penny she stole from a dear, little, white haired 86 year old lady in a heartbeat and spent the money on postage herself.
Somehow I don't think I'll rely on you as an authority on "WWARD?"...I don't use hostile speculations on Rand's hypothetical behavior in a as a guide for my own. And if you really insist on overlooking the inherent contradiction in "because of your belief in objectivist principles, you should be glad to pay for delivering to me the money I beleive you owe me", I can't stop you.
Tacitly assuming that Rand would believe that the penny in question had been stolen *by her* is a nice bit of question-begging...but not terribly subtle.
Has this little tiff become absurd enough for you yet?
Why, are you planning to inject more absurdity? You needn't bother; I've been ignoring it for about a week now, and intend to do so for at least another week.
Also, tw can stop trying to bait me into paying attention to his ranting again; we've reached the usual equilibrium state where I ignore him and he claims victory as a result...this happens on a regular basis. Engaging tw is always a boring and pointless enterprise; one can only tremble in awe of the energy driving his obsessions.
Or yawn.
Also, tw can stop trying to bait me into paying attention to his ranting again; we've reached the usual equilibrium state where I ignore him and he claims victory as a result...this happens on a regular basis.
MaggieL - if you make fictional claims and if you make those claims without first learning facts (IOW parrot Rush Limbaugh), then you will lie to Cellar dwellers as happened in 2002/2003. I simply posted known facts and therefore posted what we all know now to be reality. None facts such as the lessons of history. You do remember those expressions - and how accurate they proved to be.
When a kid in school was lost, he then claimed he did not do homework because he was bored. Boredom is a protection or denial technique - when one needs an excuse - the child in the man. Meanwhile this president who even condones torture then lies about it. He maybe the most anti-American president in 100 years. Now there is a discussion that would mine interesting facts. Who lies more often and worse then George Jr? Even MaggieL cannot defend such presidential behavior. So she claims boredom - a defensive measure called denial.
If above is wrong, then show us. Post facts. If you don't have facts, well, next time rephrase a post as opinions - and not as George Jr proclamations. Parroting George Jr lies will only get you trouble.
Accurate facts are why some so hate reality as to call them rants: again denial. An informed MaggieL would be posting more examples of how this mentally challenged president lied again. Again: reality and facts. And done so often that one might even become bored - a defensive measure by people so patriotic as to ignore how America is being subverted.
"Mission Accomplished"? Or what MaggieL calls a rant. To deny reality, is she 'bored' by that expression? Reality under George Jr is so anti-American as to require denial - called boredom.
USS Bataan - yawn. More denial. Or as some George Jr supporters have said: they got what they deserved in New Orleans. Another way of defending a mental midget president.
Monomaniacally chanting "mental midget, mental midget" doesn't reduce the man's IQ, you brat. It does demonstrate that you are an obsessive. You continue to disgust, and you fail to amuse -- and you just plain fail to persuade. You are found wanting, almost every time you sound your yawp over the rootops of the world.
Actually, I don't see your name appearing in the "Cellarites I'd like to meet list", and TW had 9 votes the last time I looked.
Call it a mystery, then -- but wisdomless leftists tend not to enjoy my company, for I keep them embarrassed and off-balance. I seem to remember a handle a lot like yours appearing in AoL Chat back in the days when I inhabited those chatrooms -- sounded a lot like you, and held the same absurd views. I wasn't too impressed then, either, and it doesn't look like that is going to change much. Really, dude, if you were a wise man on such things as international relations, gun control, and keeping the Republic in general, you'd sound a lot more like me.
This is 3 more votes than Bruce, who, for some unfathomable reason, the women seem to find quite studly.:D
Maybe he writes cute? I've seen that, and felt what it does.
Talking to yourself again? :right: