"Why does the world hate the Jews?" Article

[equazcion]

Thanks Dana, good to be here

One thing I was confused about:

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

The doctrine of the non-Jew as an ass is a fact, no one likes to be thought of that way, I sure don't.

Are you saying there's a Jewish policy of thinking of non-Jews as asses? This seems to be contradictory to everything else you said. Could you clarify what you meant there?

I'm not trying to be nitpicky, and I could be unduly assuming you meant something more general than you intended, but it really does sound much more broad-reaching than the manner in which you've described that same attitude elsewhere.

No... there is a line in some obscure text somwhere... honestly (unusual for me) I cannot remember where it is. I think it may be in one of the old transcripts of the Midrash.

If you dig deeply enough in most religions there is some kind of similar statement, something that states that "they" are less than "us".
Buddhism and Christianity are actually unusual in the respect that they do not do this, doctinally... of course, that does not stop sects from trying.

[equazcion]

I think you're right that something somewhere does say that, but I don't remember the specific context well enough to comment on it. But Christianity... I mean don't they think everyone who doesn't believe in Jesus is going to hell? That would seem to qualify as believing everyone else is "less" than them. I mean, the Midrash is mostly made up of symbolism and stories that were passed down verbally, so just because Christians never wrote down that particular thing (I believe it comes from one of the apostles) shouldn't make it any less "doctrine". At least that's my opinion.

No... it does not say that. Many Christians have interpreted the text to say that, like I said. Many are addicted to the "us-&-them" thinking, it is ego and sickness and has nothing to do with Christ's teachings.
"I am the way and the light and none may ..." does not state specifically that you have to be a Christian to go to heaven... there are many ways to interpret that statement.
I, and many Christians, look at it as his "path" is the Way, not just the Christian dogma.
Not all Christians believe in a God that needs to have his ass kissed.

[equazcion]

I guess I can't really compare the two since I don't have either specific text to look at. I don't even know where your quote comes from. Maybe I'll come back and argue some more once I check.

Argue? Were we arguing?... huh... I did not know.

[equazcion]

I said something and you said "No." In the strictest technical sense, that's an argument.

What I was referring to was really the beliefs of Christians, which I generally thought included a much more concrete sense of self-superiority.

Even if it's true there's nothing written down for Christians and there is for Jews, I really feel that Christians carry more of that than any other religion. I mean otherwise why would they be so interested in converting people? Aren't they trying to "save" everyone else? Jews don't try to convert anyone, in fact it's a policy that we have to make it difficult for people to convert into the religion.

Basically I just don't think the fact that it's written down means anything. It's what people actually believe and practice that makes the difference. Anyone who doesn't believe in Jesus can probably tell you they get the distinct feeling that Christianity has determined they're going to end up in hell. I certainly have that feeling.

So you had said you don't like to be thought of "that way." Well, you're not. That kind of thinking, even if it's written somewhere (and I'm still not sure that it is, at least not in a manner that's closed to interpretation), isn't part of any practical Jewish teachings that go on today, at least in general; I'm sure you can find some extremist group that does use it practically, but I've never even heard of anything like that.

That is like saying that because most suicide bombers are Muslim it is part of their dogma. Simply does not make it a true statement.
Because a lot of Christians have taken the evangelical ideal wrong does not make it part of Christianity.
You may have that feeling... is it based in fact, that is what makes it true or not.

[equazcion]

I'm not sure if it's based on fact. But I did present some evidence that it's reasonable for people to make the assumption. Isn't it true that even non-evangelical priests are interested in converting people, that they feel they're doing something God wants, and when they do it they feel the person has been saved? I admittedly get this mostly from cultural references, TV and movies (quite a few individuals too), but that message does seem to be overwhelming. I don't think I've ever seen a priest portrayed as not holding those kinds of beliefs, and I'm not talking about contexts that aim to put Christianity down. I'm talking about everything, even realistic media, that's just all I've ever seen.

I hope someone has some information that might shed some light on whether or not this is true. Maybe there's a priest out there?

Anyway my point isn't to say anything negative about Christianity -- I'm only balancing the 'doctrine' you pointed out about Judaism. Jews may have it written down, but it is far from doctrine, and I'm pretty sure Christians have done more with their verbal version anyway.

[Flint]

I believe in defining people by what they practice, not by what they preach. I define Christians as practicing the mainstream interpretation of the Bible. I interpret it differently, and I don't call myself Christian. I could if I wanted to, but I wouldn't want to be confused with those other people, whom I don't agree with on several key points. So, for me it's all about clarity. Let the people who state that they are Christians be the ones who define what Christianity means. If that lumps a few good apples in with the rest, well I have an easy solution for that: they could cancel their membership to the club, if they don't like the direction it's going. I don't know what Christianity could possibly refer to, in the real world, if not Christians and what Christians actually do.

It's like saying "I'm a librarian but I don't actually work at the library, I sell ice cream at an amusement park. I know usually librarian means a certain thing, but I want you to forget that for now and pretend it means ice cream salesman. Those other librarians aren't really librarians. They're actually telephone repairmen who call themselves librarians, whereas I'm an ice cream salesman who is actually a real librarian." Can you see how confusing it gets when words aren't allowed to actually mean anything?

[DanaC]

Let the people who state that they are Christians be the ones who define what Christianity means. If that lumps a few good apples in with the rest, well I have an easy solution for that: they could cancel their membership to the club, if they don't like the direction it's going.

The difficulty with the people who state that they are Christians, being the ones who define the meaning of Christianity, is that generally speaking those interpretations range along a spectrum so vast that they eventually become diametrically opposed to one another. The history of that definition is one of argument; orthodoxy, heterodoxy, they were just interpretations of the sacred texts, yet each could throw the charge of heresy at the other and the fight for dominance of those ideas was bitter. Sometimes the result was people dying and sometimes it was schism. Since the idea of personal salvation and a personal, individual relationship with the godhead, took off in a big way, those differences of interpretation may lead to much smaller consequences, but there are many more of those different interpretations around.

Oh....and I never really understood the idea that someone can just leave a religion that doesn't quite fulfil their needs/expectations. I don't believe there's a God, I do think if I did believe in God, I'd be rather inclined to find whichever interpretation seemed to actually tell me what God wants of me and then follow it. I'd need to feel pretty sure I was being sold the wrong path to actually change it.

[Flint]

With all these disagreements, it sounds like the word doesn't actually mean anything tangible.
If I thought I was calling myself a nonsense-word, I would drop the word, and keep my beliefs.

[equazcion]

Originally Posted by DanaC

...if I did believe in God, I'd be rather inclined to find whichever interpretation seemed to actually tell me what God wants of me and then follow it. I'd need to feel pretty sure I was being sold the wrong path to actually change it.

As I said before my feeling is that Christianity as defined by Christians contains the premise that everyone else is just mistaken in whatever God they believe in. "Conversion" to them isn't just switching menu choices to something that looks more attractive; it's leaving behind your mistaken beliefs in favor of the correct ones, as many have been convinced is the case.

[equazcion]

Originally Posted by Flint

With all these disagreements, it sounds like the word doesn't actually mean anything tangible.
If I thought I was calling myself a nonsense-word, I would drop the word, and keep my beliefs.

That's a good solution, in theory, but I think it's too extreme for most people to actually put into practical use. "*gasp* You're saying you're not Christian anymore? Are you sure that's safe?" Dropping the word could in-and-of-itself be viewed as sacreligious. PS, that's not just the case with Christianity. Any religious person would be uncomfortable separating themselves from the general mass that way. It's like excluding yourself from a club, you don't get to belong anymore, you have to turn in your membership card and everything. Not a positive feeling.

[Sheldonrs]

As a jew who grew up in a town with very few jews, I had to hear everyday from other students in my school that I was personally responsible for the death of Christ.
With that and everything that I have seen since, I can say that, for myself, the world is made up of only two main types of people..People who aren't jerks and everyone else.