Measles 2015

[classicman]

Bwahahahahahaha
.

[footfootfoot]

I'm gonna go with environmental pollution and the tens of thousands of untested chemicals that have become the 'background radiation' of our lives as the cause of just about all the fucked up stuff that is happening to everyone and the bees, right now. Vaccines, with or without thimerosal barely have a walk-on role in this play.

[Aliantha]

I don't see why changing the make up of an immunisation is like saying there was something wrong with the first one. There is only progress. All businesses change the make up of their product. Modify, improve etc. If people were to argue that drug companies were selling a faulty product just because they made improvements to it, then pretty much every other business on the planet should be sued too.

It's just not a valid argument, and any lawyer worth half his salt would put that one to bed pretty smartly.

eta: I say that because at this stage, there is no proven scientific link between autism and vaccination (regardless of whether it is a fact or not), so there can be no argument in a court of law about this issue. With regard to the other associated risks, consumers have been warned at every vaccination point about the risks, so that is not arguable either.

[footfootfoot]

Oooh. You go girl!

[Aliantha]

Hmmm...reading my post back, it comes across as being a lot more in your face than I had intended.

I clearly don't need to weigh in on why we should or shouldn't vaccinate. everyone here knows my point of view. I just think that if improvements can be made to vaccines so they are safer and more effective, then there shouldn't be a reason not to offer them, and the response to any opposition seems clear to me.

If there is hesitation associated with making these improvements main stream, then I would say there is a valid reason, and it's probably not associated with any conspiracy or fear of litigation.

[tw]

Originally Posted by glatt

She's been posting about this for 8+ years. That's how Griff was able to get so much out of that "soundbyte."

Relevant points must be recently posted. Yes, one could assume she said that autism may be an autoimmune disease caused by other factors. However that was not specifically stated in the current discussion in a manner that also eliminates other possible interpretations.

I see near zero relationships between autism and autoimmune diseases in previous posts. Due to no supporting numbers that define a relationship, then that subjective speculation is ignored - until perspective (ie numbers) exists to make it relevant.

So, moving on to autism. First, we know from well proven science that little to no relationship exists between MMR and autism. A point that must be repeated due to some who just refuse to admit it. Because Jenny McCarthy lied and refuses to apologize.

More likely is a relationship between autism and environments containing higher levels of farm insecticides. But even that is currently speculation. Not enough evidence (apparently) exists even for a hypothesis.

Second, a newborn child is exposed to many thousands of foreign organisms. The resulting contamination is essential to health. Whereas a parent may be overwhelmed emotionally by so many vaccines, that is near zero compared to the number of foreign infections an infant must absorb to become/remain healthy. The intestines alone contain maybe ten trillion foreign organisms - all essential for health. Not billions - trillions.

For every human body cell, another ten are foreign cells that exist due to environmental contamination. Those many times more foreign organisms are essential for health. A parent emotionally concerned by near zero 'infections' from vaccines should therefore take on a 'Howard Hughes fear' of all bacteria? And then will create a child also at tremendous risk to autoimmune diseases.

This says nothing about a relationship between autoimmune diseases and autism. But it demonstrates that infection from vaccines is trivial to near zero compare to other infections a newborn must suffer and prosper from.

We know that a newborn's contamination begins in the birth canal. Ongoing research is whether autoimmune diseases are created, in part, by Caesarian births. But again, nobody is citing a relationship between autism and Caesarian births.

Third, these vaccines have been upgraded over decades to make a near zero risk even tinier - as Aliantha discusses . Due to some upgrades, some vaccines do not remain as effective as they once did. We know from economics 101 that upgrades to anything take that many years. In the case of drugs, minor improvement typically takes a decade or longer. Innovation takes that long. Improvements (we hope) are continuing.

Jenny McCarthy certainly knows none of this. IOW everyone (except classicman) is now more intelligent than Jenny McCarthy. And this is only a layman's grasp.

[orthodoc]

8+ years of sincere belief doesn't make it right. The evidence regarding immunization is in; there is no legitimate discussion or opinion anymore. The evidence is indisputable, ever since Edward Jenner noticed that milkmaids didn't get smallpox. Immunization has saved millions upon millions of innocent lives.

As for autism spectrum disorders ... there is no evidence for an autoimmune cause, no matter how much some may wish it. I have two sons with ASD, and believe me, I have researched all possible etiologies and all possible treatments.

I delved into alternative medicine and investigated every possible route to health for my sons. I was prepared to jettison all of my allopathic teaching, but I was never willing to jettison my reason. In the end, I rejected the alternative interpretations and treatments, because they had no logical basis.

I have as much at stake as anyone, including Clod. I have two children with ASD. I feel for Clod, and I'm willing to support her as her children grow. But I don't support a rejection of immunization. That is not the hill on which to die.

Please, have your children vaccinated.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by glatt

She's been posting about this for 8+ years. That's how Griff was able to get so much out of that "soundbyte." If you joined the community here, you might understand better what people are talking about.

It's been pointed out to me that my comments might be too harsh coming from a mod. I want to be clear that I'm not speaking as a mod here. I just wanted to point out the difference between why tw didn't understand a statement, and Griff did. Griff has been paying attention to the people behind the posts, and tw appears to just be debating words on a screen.

It's all good.

[Undertoad]

Jesu le Christie, people, unless one of the mods says "If you do that again I am going to ban you," they aren't speaking as mods.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

... If you do that again I am going to ban you ...

New user title up for grabs.

[infinite monkey]

Well, who said that to glatt? Some barely disguised asshole, a keeper of all that is holy. Jebus Harold Cripes...

[glatt]

It's all OK.

[tw]

Originally Posted by glatt

It's all OK.

So is 'mods' the new lingo for mom? Or is it this board's "Mom Or Dads".

In this new electronic society, what does one do when mom or dad says to go to our room till we are told to come out? If virtual rooms no longer have walls, must we also close our door? How?

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by infinite monkey

Well, who said that to glatt? Some barely disguised asshole, a keeper of all that is holy. Jebus Harold Cripes...

Me

[infinite monkey]

Well that didn't end well.

I got defensive on glatt's behalf, as one who thinks he's about as 'above reproach' as you're going to find. glatt can certainly fight his own battles and make his own decisions, though. And this isn't even coming from a tw hater. I've always rather liked the t-dub, as I've said before. Though glatt is a moderator, he can speak as glatt and not be wearing his Glatt the Modbarian garb. At least I think so.