The Killing of Animals in its many aspects

[godwulf]

A local news story has stirred up thoughts upon which I normally try not to dwell.

Four teenaged boys lured some ducks and geese into the middle of a roadway with food, and then ran them down with their car. The young 'men' were subsequently caught, and face (though of course they won't get it, more's the pity) as much as ten years in prison.

A caller to a Talk Radio program focused on this incident brought up hunters, who lure these same birds, during 'hunting season', out with bird-calls, and then blast them to death with shotguns. The host responded by asking, "Can't you see the difference between these two activities?" My first thought was, Yes, I can, but I can't imagine that the ducks and geese do.

If you encountered a 9-year-old boy in your neighborhood, shooting stray animals with a beebee gun, what would your reaction be? That maybe the kid was disturbed in some way, and that, at the very least, his parents should be talked with - maybe even the authorities involved? Why does our society treat adults, who go out and attempt to kill wild animals - especially on public land, which, at least in theory is, along with the animals themselves, supposed to belong to all of us - with such kid gloves...even license them to do it?

I'm sure that I'm going to make a few enemies when I say this, but I'll do it anyway: I believe that people who derive enjoyment from killing animals are mentally ill.

No, I'm not a vegetarian, but I'm sure that if I had to slaughter the animals I eat, then I would be. If I were to even see, first-hand, on a regular basis, how chickens and cows, etc., are killed, I'd probably not be able to eat the result.

Yes, I shut my eyes and don't think about it, and maybe that makes me, on some level, a hypocrite; what I'm saying is that I think there's something wrong or 'missing' in a person if they can watch the suffering, the pain, the fear, the death itself, and think of it all as some innocent, fun sport.

[Troubleshooter]

Not to detract from your post, but shouldn't the question be broken down into two components?

1) Killing

2) Torture

Killing is an aspect of a vestigial urge to hunt or protect I think.

Torture is a result of poor socialization and/or bad wiring.

[Kitsune]

I believe that people who derive enjoyment from killing animals are mentally ill.

I agree, but I don't think people are above animals by very much to begin with. Animals kill animals and they don't always do it to survive or for food: male cats (housecats, lions, etc) will kill litters of kittens for seemingly little or no reason, even if they are their own offspring. Various species of monkies and apes kill other creatures for reasons we don't understand. As humans, we are no different, even down to the child with the magnifying glass, a pile of ants, and a sunny day. We derive pleasure from destruction, death, and blowing stuff up -- I classify all of these things under "human nature", even if they seem very primitive.

My stance is somewhat strange on hunting, as I can see hunting and killing a prey animal, but only as long as you eat it. Kill to put a trophy on your wall and you are just being wasteful -- there is supposed to be a "balance" of sorts in life and the taking of a life. I also cannot understand the killing of a predator, as there simply has never been any point in doing such a thing unless it is for defensive purposes.

In witnessing the slaughter and preparation of animals for food, I quickly decided that, for me, it only made sense to eat things I could kill myself. Somehow I find a beautiful logic in the idea of "If you can't kill it, don't eat it." The only meat I eat these days is seafood and eggs. (You ever notice how easy it is to kill a chicken egg? Hell, that IS kinda fun!)

If you encountered a 9-year-old boy in your neighborhood, shooting stray animals with a beebee gun, what would your reaction be?

I'd think he's pretty messed in the head, but I also see the same in adults that dress in camo and head out to a field with bottles of stink and buckets of feed to attract deer then take pride that they could aim a rifle properly and squeeze a trigger.

...but The Cellar has had a couple hunting arguments, before. Godwulf, yours caught my attention because of your mention concerning the radio show that reminded me of a similar incident in FL in which a local DJ was fired in Tampa for airing the slaughter of a wild pig on the air during his morning radio show. The public was outraged at the atrocity of the killing of an innocent pig, then probably went right back to eating their sausage and egg McMuffin for breakfast. That I truly didn't understand.

[russotto]

I'd go get a shotgun or maybe a .30-06. Then I'd tell the kid, "No, no son, you're doing it all wrong. I say, you can't shoot strays with that little piss-ant gun. Here, let me show you how it's done. BLAM! BLAM! Now you try!"

[Brigliadore]

Originally posted by godwulf
If you encountered a 9-year-old boy in your neighborhood, shooting stray animals with a beebee gun, what would your reaction be?

If I encountered something like this I would give the kid a stern talking to. Maybe even scare the shit out of him if I could. Its not just because he is shooting an animal, its because studies have shown that children that abuse animals grow up to be adults that abuse people. If I come across someone who is shooting stray cats with a REAL gun, well while I may not approve of it I am a little more ok with it because god willing the animal will die right away. But shooting an animal with a BB gun more then likely wont kill the animal, its just going to leave large welts all over the animals body and thats just not cool.

I, like Kitsune think that hunting is ok as long as you eat the animal you killed, and as long as you attempt to kill the animal with the first shot so it doesn't lay there in pain.

One time several years ago we were driving through this little podunk town in Utah and we stopped for gas. There in the gas station was a mountain lion stuffed and mounted on the wall behind the register. While I wasn't real happy with it, I wasn't angry that someone had killed a mountain lion till I looked below the animal and discovered about 10 photos of the "hunt". This man had taken about 12 dogs with him and the photos showed the dogs chasing the lion, cornering the lion, taking turns attacking the lion, etc. Several of the photos showed a clear shot this man could have taken to put the lion down, but instead he wanted to take photos of his dogs mauling this poor animal to death. Thats not sportsmanship, thats cruelty and thats where it crosses the line for me.

For me it all comes down to this; Its generally OK to kill an animal so long at it is put down swiftly and as painlessly as possible.

But thats just me.

[godwulf]

Kitsune wrote:

I classify all of these things under "human nature", even if they seem very primitive.

No doubt that we do share certain urges and behaviors with other species - the ones that you mentioned, along with the recently discovered tendency of some male dolphins toward bullying and rape, to add another example - but I don't believe that we can simply, therefore, dismiss the behavior as 'natural' and not judge it from a distinctly human perspective.

Kitsune also wrote:

I'd think he's pretty messed in the head, but I also see the same in adults that dress in camo and head out to a field with bottles of stink and buckets of feed to attract deer then take pride that they could aim a rifle properly and squeeze a trigger.

My point exactly - I don't see a difference, either. And to add to the confusion, anyone who is anti-hunting is accused, by some, of being anti-Second Amendment. Hey, I don't read anything about hunting in the Second Amendment. It's a tradition, not a Constitutional right.

Brigliadore wrote:

...hunting is ok as long as you eat the animal you killed, and as long as you attempt to kill the animal with the first shot so it doesn't lay there in pain.

"Ok' with you, with many others, maybe even with me, if I were hungry enough and there was no other food available...my question, I guess, is "Don't the animal's feelings count for anything?"

[Pi]

Talking about animals to kill to eat... During a survival exercise, my buddy and me had to steal some fish and a chicken to get something to eat for the platoon. Killing a fish is quite easy: Just put it on a stone and hit with another one on his head or slap it hard against a tree... But killing a chick, man, that was heavy... My buddy couldn't do it so I had to take it with the legs and turn it around to lose sensations and feeling, take a sharp knife (we only had a small Army-knife, wish i had my grandpa's axe how he did it), and cut the head of... It was quite horrible. But we got something for the group and forget about the chicken shitting around and its eyes when i cut its throat...

[jaguar]

Anyone that hunts for 'sport' is a fuckwit with a problem in my book.
Frankly I think it'd be less tortorous for the poor animal to run it over with a car than fill it full of buckshot and drop to the ground from 40 feet. What comes around goes around? You want to watch an animal attacked by your dogs? How about we dump you in a concrete pit with a couple of pit bulls for a few minutes , asshole.

If you're eating it it's a little different. There are a lot of people I'd rather shoot than most animals. Probably why I give money to WWF over CCF.

[Brigliadore]

Originally posted by godwulf
"Ok' with you, with many others, maybe even with me, if I were hungry enough and there was no other food available...my question, I guess, is "Don't the animal's feelings count for anything?"

Now I am not saying animals don't have feeling because I believe they do but, What Feelings? A hunter goes out he stalks the deer for an hour. The deer does not know he is there, or else it would be long gone by then. He gets close enough, he aims, he shoots, he kills the deer. God willing he aimed well and the deer died almost instantly. Where does the deers feelings come into this? Did the deer want to die? I don't know I'm not a deer, but maybe he did, maybe he was depressed because he couldn't get a female deer and food was scarce that year. Maybe he was a happy deer who just wanted to live his little deer life and not be killed. Or maybe (and I am not saying this is true as I don't know) the deer is too dumb to have any idea how good or bad his life is. Maybe all he does is go on instinct i.e; eat, sleep, run from danger, mate, go to the bathroom.
Rereading the above comments it occurs to me that it comes off a little sarcastic, that is not my intent. I am simply trying to understand from your point of view where the animals feelings come into this.
I was raised on a farm, so my point of view on this type of thing comes from how I was raised. Cows were raised to be eaten, chickens to be eaten or to lay eggs, etc. Every animal had a purpose growing up and I was taught to respect what that animal was intended to be used for. Because of that upbringing I don't have a problem with a hunter going out and killing a deer and then taking it home and eating it. I was taught to treat the animals in my care kindly and fairly until it was time for them to fulfill the purpose then were meant to. So because my point of view is skewed by how I was raised I have to ask you to elaborate on what feelings the animals might have in that situation.

EDIT:Stupid spell checker wasn't smart enough to know what I meant rather then what I typed

[Brigliadore]

Originally posted by Brigliadore
Because of that upbringing I don't have a problem with a hunter going out and killing a deer and then taking it home and eating it.

I want to add that just because I don't have a problem with someone going out and hunting an animal doesn't mean I personally like it. I believe everyone has a right to pursue things that make them happy. I my self would never go out and shoot a wild animal for sport, but I am not going to tell someone else they cant.

[OnyxCougar]

It all comes down to whether you believe humans are merely animals, or caretakers of the earth, with a responsiblity to care for and respect all life.

[godwulf]

Brigliadore wrote:

Or maybe (and I am not saying this is true as I don't know) the deer is too dumb to have any idea how good or bad his life is. Maybe all he does is go on instinct i.e; eat, sleep, run from danger, mate, go to the bathroom.

This, and much else that you wrote, could just as accurately describe the way much of humanity goes about its day.

I think of Philosophy, as a discipline, as an activity that has to transcend (in its evaluation of, for example, right and wrong) things like the statutory law and politics. Currently, people in most societies have many rights, including the right - unless they're unfortunate enough to happen to live in a war zone or occupied territory - not to be shot and killed for somebody else's amusement, and animals do NOT have that right in many situations. Even a companion animal or pet, in many cases, is viewed by the courts as mere property, whose needless death can be remedied with a small cash payment and a slap on the wrist. I'm trying to understand what is right, as opposed to what is simply true from a legal standpoint.

Brigliadore also wrote:

I have to ask you to elaborate on what feelings the animals might have in that situation.

Most of what I have to work with, when it comes to evaluating how animals seem to feel, is what I experience every day with my own cats. They show affection for us, and for one another, they get scared, they display what is unquestionably a sense of humor at times, and they seem very concerned with staying safe and alive. I don't believe that there's any rational basis for thinking that the human urge to keep breathing and enjoy life is based on our ability to think and reason, and with every other species it's just dumb instinct.

[Kitsune]

Originally posted by godwulf
"Ok' with you, with many others, maybe even with me, if I were hungry enough and there was no other food available...my question, I guess, is "Don't the animal's feelings count for anything?"

No, I'm not a vegetarian, but I'm sure that if I had to slaughter the animals I eat, then I would be. If I were to even see, first-hand, on a regular basis, how chickens and cows, etc., are killed, I'd probably not be able to eat the result.

You mentioned you are not a vegetarian, Godwulf and you seem very concerned with the feelings of a wild animal killed when hunted, but you don't seem to be concerned with the lives animals lead that are specifically raised for slaughter. It is much more pleasant, I would think, to live a life in the fields and be put to death by an arrow or bullet than to live an entire life in the torturous conditions of a pen, be overfed, and then be killed by the infamous bolt-to-the-skull.

If you're content eating them, then you shouldn't be too concerned with animals being hunted, because I'm quite certain that aside from hunting with a pack of dogs that the life of a farm animal tends to be much worse than the death of a wild one by rifle.

...and then I read your original post. Maybe you are much more concerned with the mentality involved in the enjoyment of death than the actual death of the animal itself? I know that people who enjoy it seriously need to have their head looked at. The "noble" "sport" of foxhunting, for example, enrages me to the point of wanting to seriously hurt people for multiple reasons (and not just the obvious): It is, quite simply, the enjoyment of an extremely brutal, bloody, painful death that is wrapped up in the flag of tradition. And you're right -- any child doing such things would be put under heavy observation, treatment and consuling. Any adult doing such a thing is held in admiration for many. How fucked up is that?

Thanks, Godwulf, now I'm all pissed off, again.

[Brigliadore]

Originally posted by godwulf
Most of what I have to work with, when it comes to evaluating how animals seem to feel, is what I experience every day with my own cats.

Having been raised around all sorts of animals all my life I have no question that animals feel love, happiness, pain, etc. Even chickens which I think are relatively low on the intelligence scale have demonstrated loyalty and affection, but thats not the point. I dont think I was asking my question correctly. You asked me "Don't the animal's feelings count for anything?" . I want to know, if the animal is just walking along minding his own business and then Bam is shot and dies instantly, where do his feelings on the matter come into play? This is going to sound heartless but the animal is dead, I don't think he has feelings on the subject at that point.

Like I said, I personally don't think that wild animals should be hunted, but I am not going to tell someone they are wrong if they want to. Thats not my place or my right. Yes I am a hypocrite because I find it distasteful to hunt wild animals but have no problem with domestically raised meat. But I do think there is a big difference. I have seen many slaughter houses, stock yards, dairy's, poultry facilities, etc, some are bad, but the majority are not and having seen where the animals I eat live and where they die I still choose to eat meat. But thats just me.

[godwulf]

Kitsune wrote:

...you seem very concerned with the feelings of a wild animal killed when hunted, but you don't seem to be concerned with the lives animals lead that are specifically raised for slaughter

You have a valid point...except that I AM concerned about the horrific conditions in factory farms and 'processing plants' of various kinds; but those institutions are always going to exist - all that can be done is to work toward strengthening and enforcing the laws that are designed to lessen the stress and pain experienced by the animals. Meat-eating is too deeply entrenched in our culture to ever go away, short of the extinction of all of the animals that we, as a species, can figure out how to choke down.

Hunting, on the other hand, is just a legally and (for the most part) socially acceptable (though rapidly shrinking, in terms of those who regularly participate) means for a borderline sociopathic mind to get its jollys in killing a living thing.

Kitsune also wrote:

Maybe you are much more concerned with the mentality involved in the enjoyment of death than the actual death of the animal itself?

You're undoubtedly right. I would not go so far as to accuse someone who worked in a factory farm, or a farmer slaughtering animals to feed his family, of being sick in the head; I have no such qualms when it comes to 'sport hunters'.