Businesses Facilitating 'Identity Theft'

You seem to be missing the point I made above so I will try to clarify. Since you missed it entirely, we are not correctly using the systems we got currently.

This is not about protection as a solution at this point the crap has done left the horse.

After the fraud is discovered, is what I am talking about.

The only place else to go with that is to go to DNA, and the science is NOT perfected on that.

Retinal scanners and fingerprints fail because people will just steal eyes and prints from dead people or live ones for that matter.

There is never going to be a system that is 100% fool proof.

So you have a straw argument nothing can satisfy.

First you chastise me as complaining about the problem and not offering any solutions and then you want to pick apart the solutions.

You paint me wil a broad brush like joe hick consumer.

People like you are the reason nothing ever gets fixed.

You don't know what I personally have demanded or not demanded in law, congressional hearing, congressional office or otherwise and it is arrogant to assume you do.

This thread demostrates nothing about the identity protection system desired. At least on my part.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Idtheft03

After the fraud is discovered, is what I am talking about.

The only place else to go with that is to go to DNA, and the science is NOT perfected on that.

Retinal scanners and fingerprints fail because people will just steal eyes and prints from dead people or live ones for that matter.

You are jumping to wild conclusions such as a need for retnal scanners, DNA, etc. An effective system needs not use all that complexity.

Now what is it that you want to accomplish? Protect identity or build a system of law enforcement? SS number nor driver's license does neither because they were not even intended to accomplish these things. A good system need be built first on a foundation intended for that purpose. We are using SS numbers and driver's licenses for identity because we have nothing to do the job. This topic was discussed rather extensively in an earlier discussion: A National ID Card

Nothing posted in this thread says anything beyond discussion identity protection and identity theft identification. If you feel insulted, it came from elsewhere - and not from anything posted here. Required is a system so that you can prove who you are and so that you can prove no one else is claiming to be you. Identity protection must meet both objectives.

[xoxoxoBruce]

No matter what perfect system you come up with, if it can't be used over the phone, business isn't interested. Anything that slows the sale, or gives the customer pause, is out.

What is also needed as our case illustrates is an effective means of correcting the BAD identity data as well.

There are no processes or procedures either in existance that will correct our situation.

The credit bureaus are not treating the SSN as a unique identitfier which it is. There are not multiple people given the same number by the SSA.

So the fact they would allow the same number to be reused with other names is a fundamental flaw in need of being addressed.

We can only build a better system.

And Bruce is right anything that hampers instant sales are going to be stifled by business at every turn.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Idtheft03

There are no processes or procedures either in existance that will correct our situation. ... And Bruce is right anything that hampers instant sales are going to be stifled by business at every turn.

Therefore the SS number system will not work as expected - because it is not even established to perform identity functions. What makes telephone transactions so insecure? The missing and non-existant identity and confirmation system.

I believe you have a problem with this by assuming I am talking about existing systems and equipment (ie retnal scanners). Innovation starts by learning new fundamental concepts and procedures - and not getting bogged down in the microscopic details such as electronic fingerprinting. The classic expression is seeing the forest from the trees.

For example, satellites contain an identity and verification system so that unscrupulous companies cannot subvert another's satellite. Please tell me where such systems do not work over electronic media?

In the early days of satellites, everyone was careful to protect the other. When the Russians launched a new satellite, they told us what frequencies they would be using so that we did not harm their bird - accidentally talk to their bird. We did same with Russians. The entire identity system used for control was equivalent to a SS number system -dependent on all being honest. Even in satellites, such systems are no longer acceptable. Nothing super 21st Century technology. A system so that each owner could prove to each bird who we are AND so that the bird could inform us when others attempted to subvert the system. Without the later, then no security exists. We don't even have that simplistic system in business, the nation's economy, the credit card system, nor in credit bureaus. Somehow you even have to pay something (ie money or giving you address to credit spammers) to verify your own credit - typically long after that rating has been destroyed. Any systems that do exist are best called KLUDGES.

Take the ATM as an example. When it comes to basic transactional security, the nation's banking system is just fine, happy, and will to accept identity fraud as a cost of doing business rather than getting serious about personal security. Destruction of your credit rating does not adversely affect their business credibility nor their bottom line. Just like with ATMs and Smart Cards, the American banking system has no interest or incentives for an identity and verification system. You are not demanding same; and they are not. So it will not happen.

IOW losses due to bad credit would have to increase ten-fold or more before the issue is addressed - unless the public takes interest and demands same. Not only do be have nothing to perform identity verificatons and protection - ie SS number system. We have no interest in creating same. Not enough people realize yet that they have been harmed which is why credit bureaus should be required to provide you a credit report for free and when demanded. Again, will not happen.

Remember, ATMs existed in the western world for 10 years before any appeared in America. Companies who make smart card chips have sold billions - and still smart cards don't exist in America. With fear of technology rampant in the banking/financial industry (industry hyped networking in the early 1990s as a major innovation), and with people not even clamoring for identity protection, then no effective protection system is even being proposed.

Your SS number system - an upgrade from the existing system - will not work. For example, to prove who you are, you must provide a SS number. Now criminals have complete access to YOUR identity number because you must expose that number to prove who you are. This is the same problem that even makes credit card fraud so easy. Such systems will not work for the same reasons they do not work today. The foundation on which identity is proven is not based in security. Without a foundation that includes fundamental security (including the verification function), then identity theft remains profitable and unimpeded.

If a SS number is good enough for identity protection, then so is a credit card number. Furthermore, both are based upon and easily subverted by a compromised birth certificate system. A failed system that was never intended to provide identity verification and that provides no means to detect attempted identity theft.

We have no working identity system. The SS number system will never provide active identity protection - detect when others attempt identity theft. Without meeting both critieria, then no identity system exists. Nothing currently in existance is built on a secure foundation. Every existing identity method (SS numbers, credit card numbers, driver's licenses) is built for other purposes which is why identity theft will remain easy. None of those systems meet nor can be made to meet the two criteria - to prove you are who you claim AND to detect when another claims to be you. Two criteria. How, pray tell, can a SS number system even begin to meet those two criteria?

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

No matter what perfect system you come up with, if it can't be used over the phone, business isn't interested. Anything that slows the sale, or gives the customer pause, is out.

Well, speaking from experience, (being one of the people that signs people up for services over the phone), people don't WANT to wait. Every customer I talk to wants to sign up over the phone. To facilitate that, they are more than willing to give us the following information:

Name
Address where they want service (this has to be accurate or they dont get cable where they live)
SSN
DOB
DL #
Employer name

That's it. We run a quick check through Equifax, which does not count as an inquiry. It checks against fraud alerts in their database for that SSN. IF it comes through clean, we then cross-check the ssn/name/address in our previous customer database. If we have no record of them, we set up an installation.

If it comes up with fraud alert in Equifax, we have them come into the office with 2 forms of ID and their original ss card, and make them pay a $50 deposit before we install.

99% of customers (that is not a scientific figure, just an estimate based on my experience doing this for over a year now) want us to set them up for an install, and do it RIGHT NOW. "Can you install it today??" "No, we're going to need you to come down to the office and bring some ID and your social security card with you." "You gotta be kidding me! I want cable today!" "Well, I'm sorry, but there seems to be a fraud alert on your social security number, and you should contact Equifax immediately to find out what the problem is." "Whatever. I'm going to satellite."

There has only been 2 times I've ever had a customer refuse to give me his social security number over the phone, and voluntarily come in with his ID.

Bottom line is, when customers want goods and services RIGHT NOW, the business that doesn't provide it is the loser.

The problem starts with our fast food, rush, instant gratification society.

[wolf]

Because I got an offer from an online vendor for free stuff if I signed up for their branded card, I got one.

Like most cards, you have to call an activation number so that you can use the card.

I had the damnedest thing happen.

I got a LIVE human, instead of the typical recording that would tell me to listen to several special offers while my card was being validated.

The human demanded that I provide my SS#.

I said "no."

"What do you mean, no?"

"I mean no. I don't give it out."

"If you don't give me your ss# I can't activate your card."

"okay then, don't activate it."

I called back at 3am. Automated system.

I didn't even have to listen to a credit protection scheme offer.

Just "Thanks for calling, your card is now activated."

[xoxoxoBruce]

No matter what perfect system you come up with, if it can't be used over the phone, business isn't interested. Anything that slows the sale, or gives the customer pause, is out.

Bottom line is, when customers want goods and services RIGHT NOW, the business that doesn't provide it is the loser.

Thank you for proving my point.

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

If it comes up with fraud alert in Equifax, we have them come into the office with 2 forms of ID and their original ss card, and make them pay a $50 deposit before we install.

Why does a person with a fraud alert have to pay a $50 deposit that another person doesn't have to pay?

Just curious. It seems to be penalizing victims of identity theft just for being vicitms.

It would seem to me if the person was willing to come down and personally guarantee they were the "real deal" an extra deposit would not be necessary.

[xoxoxoBruce]

The $50 covers their actual cost of making the installation so they're not out if a problem arises. They don't want to take the time or resourses to find out the whole story because they've got other people to screw,....er,...serve.

Well Bruce that is AWFUL victimizing the victim...........just plain awful!

[Cyber Wolf]

Originally Posted by Idtheft03

It seems to be penalizing victims of identity theft just for being vicitms.

Life's just not fair, is it?

Well No it is not...........