Gun does NOT equal cowboy!

[be-bop]

So when I asked the question about the American way of life and the attitude to guns two things appear to come to the fore. Self protection against crime against the person and putting food on the table.
I can handle the protection bit,but the hunting hmmm.
Most people in the UK have no experience with guns much less using them for self defence.A farmer in the UK has just got out of jail got a 5 year stretch for shooting 2 guys who broke into his house.killed one and injured the other did not get parole because he would not admit to doing wrong and said would do it again if the same thing happened.Thats the attitude to guns by the authorities here.Crazy or what?

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally posted by warch
I'm an American for gun control.

"Studies" that claim to prove that increased gun ownership, conceal and carry laws cause a reduction in crime are flawed big time. Correlation does not prove causation. If there is a reduction in the yearly crime rate in Sarasota, FL the year after conceal and carry legistation is enacted, does that prove that the reduction is indeed caused by the presence of legal guns as deterants or is there a chance that other factors contributed to this decline? changing demographics, shifting laws, drug treatment programs, weather? Come on.
Does the poverty ridden inner city of Chicago have a higher incidence of crime than Sarasota Florida? yes.Would the crime, death and injury rate in Chicago's southside decrease when everyone is allowed to be armed? Well obviously not, because essentially everyone is armed allowed or otherwise. So the next step is to have everyone armed more. Radar's nukes perhaps. The cops need more firepower. I'm not convinced that gun proliferation serves as a crime deterent. I think true crime prevention addresses the motivating contexts of criminal behavior- economics, education, health, community.

OK, you don't believe concealed Carry laws made the crime rate go down. Fine, but the point is THEY DIDN"T MAKE IT GO UP, so what's the problem?

People who suffer moments of unstablity, or consider suicide, or are immature, stupid and curious, or are murderous, when there are guns available, will use this effective tool on themselves and others. My concern is that a concealed handgun law will not make communities safer, but rather make more handguns more available to all imperfect audiences.

Apples and oranges. The guns are already in the community, in the homes and businesses. I don't think many people are buying guns because concealed carry becomes an option. They are carrying guns they already own. Although I will admit some people have told me they are buying a different gun that's more conducive to concealment. Personally I don't carry most of the time, but there are times and places where I prefer to exercise that option.

[warch]

OK, you don't believe concealed Carry laws made the crime rate go down. Fine, but the point is THEY DIDN"T MAKE IT GO UP, so what's the problem?

I do believe that increased gun availabilty and proliferation, namely handguns and automatic weapons,will serve to increase incidents of gun violence, both criminal and accidental.

Bet youre gonna ask me to prove it and I'll hafta do a big old google search to do my best... but it seems kind of logical to me.

[xoxoxoBruce]

And that has to do with concealed carry, how?

[warch]

Conceal and carry laws increase gun sales, thus increase the number of guns in a community. Particularly new guns, youve mentioned, that conceal better, as well as accessories like purses with secretive compartments.

[xoxoxoBruce]

They may increase the total slightly but not the number of owners. CC laws are not prompting people who would not normally own a gun to buy them. They are giving the people who own them another option in usage. Then of course since the thugs don't know who those people are, those that carry are helping to protect everyone by default.
Having a gun around may make you nervous but if you wake up to the sound of an electric chainsaw, it's too late.

[JeepNGeorge]

Originally posted by warch


I do believe that increased gun availabilty and proliferation, namely handguns and automatic weapons,will serve to increase incidents of gun violence, both criminal and accidental.

How many times has a legally owned automatic weapon been used to commit a crime???? And by automatic I mean full auto, not semi.

[zippyt]

from the UK , Nuff said ,

[Uryoces]

Check out Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. I thought I was not gonig to like it, but I ended up agreeing with him in his final conclusion about irresponsible media. He showed that there are as many gun owners in Canada as the US [aside: I do not know about conceal carry laws in Canada], but far fewer crimes.

Blacks are portrayed in the media as thugs, the police are portrayed as out to arrest and prosecute any black they can find, white people are mass murderers, terrorista are around every corner. A single murder takes center stage, and is short stroked for 15 minutes of the 30 minute local news.

Michael Moore also paints the US as warmongering and bloodthirsty; that's debatable. That's debated every day here in nearly every thread.

It's the only things that Moore could find different between the US and Canada. I'm not going to live in fear and waste my life; I turned off the news and the networks long ago, and I'm much happier. Don't believe all the gun hysteria you read. They do not, and never have had any mystical powers. My guns are tools just like my dremel and my saw; absolutely nothing else.

[warch]

Based on FBI data, nearly 1.7 million guns have been reported stolen in the past ten years, and only 40% of those were recovered. The missing guns, over 80% of which are taken from homes or cars most likely fuel the black market for criminals. NEA, AGS and the National Rifle Association advocate for safe storage.

Conceal and carry also adds risk by allowing and encouraging easier access for both the owner, and those around him/her. If the owner suffers a moment of rage, there is immediate and convienent access. Also daily carried guns, stored in bags, holsters, and cars are less secure and increase the risk of loss or theft- whether by criminal or baby... Like your keys, your wallet, your cellphone, your car.

I'm not for banning all guns. I'm for rational control of gun proliferation, better enforcement of gun sale laws and background checks. I'm for letting law enforcement decide, case by case, who can get a permit for concealed handguns.

I'm for supporting law enforcement in the prosecution of gun crimes and most of all, for real, effective crime prevention- early intervention, education, health services. You can pay for it now, or you can pay much more for it later.

Going deer hunting with your uncle, Having your secured gun in your home for protection, or enjoying the sport of target shooting with your girlfriend is different than making it legal for citizens of a community to socially interact while armed with hidden deadly handguns.

Why are guns banned from courthouses? Why are guns banned from stadiums? Why is that venue's risk considered more important than the public's Target parking lot? (no pun intended) If concealed weapons pose no greater risk, why are there metal detectors popping up everywhere?

from the Centers for Disease Control:
The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined.

American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die from a firearm accident than children in 25 other industrialized countries combined.


oh, sorry. found the above stats collected at the National Education Association website.

[russotto]

[quote]Originally posted by warch
Based on FBI data, nearly 1.7 million guns have been reported stolen in the past ten years, and only 40% of those were recovered. The missing guns, over 80% of which are taken from homes or cars most likely fuel the black market for criminals. NEA, AGS and the National Rifle Association advocate for safe storage.

I wonder if that includes the Suburban full of machine guns BATF lost a few years ago.

Guns are stolen, therefore people shouldn't be allowed to have them. Yeah. That makes sense.

How about "guns are stolen from cars and homes, therefore people should be encouraged to carry them at all times"?

Conceal and carry also adds risk by allowing and encouraging easier access for both the owner, and those around him/her. If the owner suffers a moment of rage, there is immediate and convienent access.

If the only reason we don't kill those around us is that we don't have immediate access to a gun, we should all be in mental hospitals, not walking (and driving) around free.

I'm for letting law enforcement decide, case by case, who can get a permit for concealed handguns.


Why should the cops decide whether or not a person can carry a gun? They are supposed to be public servants, not masters. They certainly think they are "above" non-cops, which is reason enough to deny them that power.


...is different than making it legal for citizens of a community to socially interact while armed with hidden deadly handguns.


Somehow I think "hidden" is a strawman here. Or are you for legal "open carry"?

[Undertoad]

deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined

This is called statistical cherry picking and would get an F in a good statistics class.

Both sides indulge in this kind of thing...

[warch]

Guns are stolen, therefore people shouldn't be allowed to have them. Yeah. That makes sense.

No that's not what I said. Guns are stolen,and guns are "found" by people other than the owner often with deadly results and therefore secure gun possession should be a major concern as the NRA states. Conceal and carry, I feel, is less secure gun possession. You obviously disagree and so it is.

If the only reason we don't kill those around us is that we don't have immediate access to a gun, we should all be in mental hospitals, not walking(and driving) around free.

Well I'll agree with that. But I'd add that not all people are as calm, centered, and benevolent at all times as you. And is there any level of force or weaponry you would deny or regulate to your fellow citizenry?

Why should the cops decide whether or not a person can carry a gun? They are supposed to be public servants, not masters.

Well, I was talking specifically about concealed handguns. Cops are sposed to uphold the laws we democratically hammer out. And at this point I feel they may be in the best position to conduct full criminal background checks as well as monitor stolen guns, illegal sales, etc.

Somehow I think "hidden" is a strawman here. Or are you for legal "open carry"?

Nah, you can take out both hidden and deadly from that statement if you wanna. But you raise an interesting point. Why isnt the law to just carry? Why the conceal? There must be some advantage or reasoning, beyond aesthetics. If the arguement is a simple one of protection and crime prevention , why not just pack it the outside?

[JeepNGeorge]

Originally posted by warch
[i]
I'm not for banning all guns. I'm for rational control of gun proliferation, better enforcement of gun sale laws and background checks. I'm for letting law enforcement decide, case by case, who can get a permit for concealed handguns.

I think more gun education would be better.

I shot trap and skeet during high school for the local 4-H teams. So while other kids where learning about guns from the now governor of California, I was out getting hands on experience. You can't piece together the clay pigeons as nicely as the liquid terminator can reattach an arm.

No matter how hard we try the US can simply not legislate morality. Be it smoking, speeding, or gun control. No matter how many laws we pass we will not create a perfect society. What we can do is educate people. We can show them the truthful consequences of their actions.

Life is not a Mountain Dew commercial.

Maybe the media and hollywood are partially to blame for showing how cool Clint Eastwood is while he smokes a cigar and blazes his sixguns.

Maybe more people should listen to Folsum Prison Blues and listen to the regret johnny sang about knowing that unlike the train whistle he can never be free again cause he shot that man in reno just to watch him die, instead of (c)rap songs about busting a cap in somebody's azz cause they dissed you.

Maybe we need to put the 10 commandments back in school.

Maybe we need to do a lot of things, but I don't think stricter gun control laws is one of them.

[russotto]

Me, calm, centered, and benevolent? Not likely. But I've never tried to kill anyone. Not even maim them a little. To deny me (or anyone else) the right to carry a weapon on the grounds that if I have it, I might kill someone with it, is to assume I'm incapable of controlling or unwilling to control any murderous impulses I might have.

Cops are supposed to enforce the law, as you point out. Letting them decide who gets to carry a weapon and who does not goes beyond enforcing the law into becoming a law unto themselves.

PA law did (and may still) allow open carry. The problem is that cops and judges conspired to interpret that law so that if any part of the gun was hidden (e.g. by a holster), that counted as concealed carry.

There are a couple of sound crime-prevention arguments behind concealed carry versus open carry. One is deterrence -- open carry protects only the carrier. Concealed carry provides a degree of protection for anyone who might be carrying. The other is retention. I know of absolutely no instance where a person carrying concealed has had his or her weapon taken by a criminal. There are many cases where a person carrying openly (including cops) has had his or her weapon taken.

However, the main problem with open carry is what you might expect -- it makes anti-gun people nervous.