teacher boffing student agian - Page 8

Radar · 07-07-2004, 01:04 PM

Unlike gender, age can be a mitigating circumstance. But for the sake of argument let's say it's a 19 year old teenanger who is an adult. Yes, they should get the same punishment (assuming the person whose car it was wants to press charges) as anyone else who steals a car. The career criminal will do more jail time because he'll get the same amount of time that the other guy got for each car he steals. Less ambiguity means more justice and equity under the law.

Judges have already shown that they can be outright dishonest and exceed thier authority as in the case of the Supreme Court which routinely makes unconstitutional rulings so I don't think they should be given much latitude at all in terms of sentencing.

They already have mandatory minimum sentencing for some crimes, but what if it weren't mandatory minimums, but just mandatory sentencing. For instance...

Steal a car = 1 year in jail with no early release.

The boy who steals a car will do 1 full year and everyone who knows about it will make sure they don't do it. The career criminal who is found to have stolen 10 cars will get 10 years; one for each car.

jaguar · 07-07-2004, 05:18 PM

statutory rape is bloody difficult because there are so many mitigating circumstances, often the younger person is the dominant one and it is totally victimless but sometimes it isn't and getting that difference right is bloody hard. Australia has a fairly good system , after 16 you can screw anyone you want and before that there is a two year leeway system, for example a 15y.o can have sex with a 17y.o. I think that strikes the right balance between giving people freedom and protecting them from exploitation, by 16 you should be capable of making your own choices. I've got a few friends who had flings or relationships of one sort or another with people in their 20s while 16 or 17 and no harm came of it.

Clodfobble · 07-07-2004, 05:31 PM

But jag, do you agree there ought to at least be a special case regarding teachers/coaches/other people in authority positions in the teenager's lives?

Joe Faux · 07-08-2004, 12:21 AM

I'm the father of a two year old and a five year old. Both boys. If either of them were placed in this situation I would want the fullest extent of the law leveraged against the adult. I would not want race, religion, or gender to intervene and reduce the punishment. Even if the child was sexually mature enough to engage in this activity, he was not legally responsible to make this decision. Too many far-reaching factors from this single event could alter their future hopes and dreams.

I'll admit that I'm more disappointed when a person abuses their authority to take advantage of someone. However I feel the penalty for this type of predator should be the same. They prey on our children and should be removed from society.

The crux of this discussion is based on the myth that men are mere beasts with raging hormones while women search for “love” and follow their heart. It doesn't matter. Even if one excuse sounds more romantic, both results are the same.

(By the way, if this were really true, shouldn't men get a lesser sentence since they are biologically helpless and predisposed to commit such crimes. After all, women are consciously making the choice to follow their heart and “make love” with a minor. Men can't help but follow the dumbstick. Ridiculous!)

We are not slaves to our heart or sexual desires and should be held culpable for our actions equally.

By having a different scale for men and women, aren't we stating that women, once overcome with the passion of love, are the weaker of the sexes and should receive extra protection from society? To justify this argument you would then need to consider that females are emotionally irresponsible and mentally incompetent. Therefore, society has extended far too many rights to them. Absolutely ridiculous!

What happened to equality in the eyes of the law? If we are to consider the sexes to be equally responsible and accountable for their sexual behavior, then we must try them using the same legal rules.

Enough isn't done to protect the children. Sex offenders of children rarely spend much time in jail. Sadly, these types of criminals repeatedly offend and releasing a convicted child molester back into society shows complete indifference to the children of the community. Just check out your local city, county, or state sexual offense web page and you'll see just how many of these people, both men and women, move in and out of the system.

Not only do we need to make the penalties equal, but severe enough that at the very least the chance for a repeat offense is small.

Catwoman · 07-08-2004, 03:23 AM

I am just trying to push boundaries. Sorry if people can't cope with this level of discussion. Lets get back to safe ground quick.

And by the way - personally, I do think men and women should receive the same punishment, if it is the same crime. I merely question whether the same crime is possible, whether it is a man and a woman, or two different men. I also question methods of punishment, and the concept of punishment itself, but this is perhaps food for a different debate.

I have stated before that the perspective I present here is not necessarily my opinion. I was interested to see how far we could take this one. Maybe this is it. Such crimes are perhaps too emotional to discuss with much clarity.

Joe Faux · 07-09-2004, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catwoman

I am just trying to push boundaries. Sorry if people can't cope with this level of discussion. Lets get back to safe ground quick.

Ouch.

I'm not emotional regarding this issue. Rather, I'm stating that this crime be calculated the same across the board regardless of genders involved.

Existing social paradigms do hold the genders in different respect. This is often reflected in the sentencing. People find it hard to accept a woman is capable of being the aggressor and offer her built-in excuses such as "love" or "passion". If the tables were turned and a man stated that he “loved” his victim, the public would have called for a hanging. Yet, when the accused is a woman, society assumes that some altruistic reason transcended the age difference. Her gender alone will automatically and wrongfully mitigate the severity of the crime. (By the way I wonder what the child's parents think.)

The teacher involved in this crime willfully and knowingly acted against the law to satisfy her sexual desires. Period. This cannot be tolerated by the legal system and she should be measured by the same legal tools as any other individual that commits this crime.

The only boundary to explore would be the dissolution of the archaic belief that women should be coddled and protected from themselves. Maintaining the belief that women are incapable such acts is outdated to say the very least. Grown women deserve the credit of being treated like adults.

jaguar · 07-08-2004, 03:25 AM

Quote:

I am just trying to push boundaries. Sorry if people can't cope with this level of discussion. Lets get back to safe ground quick.

For the record, I'm glad someone is.

jaguar · 07-08-2004, 12:40 PM

Savage Love knows what he's talking about.

Radar · 07-08-2004, 01:04 PM

Well said Joe.

Quote:

And by the way - personally, I do think men and women should receive the same punishment, if it is the same crime. I merely question whether the same crime is possible, whether it is a man and a woman, or two different men. I also question methods of punishment, and the concept of punishment itself, but this is perhaps food for a different debate.

It IS the same crime. It's the same crime regardless of their gender. It is EXACTLY the same crime and gender doesn't change that. If a man with a gun shoots an unknown old lady just walking down the street without cause, is it a different crime when a woman shoots an unknown old lady just walking down the street without cause? NO!!! It's the same crime. If a woman has sex with a 14 year old it is EXACTLY THE SAME CRIME as when a man has sex with a 14 year old.

I'm not making an emotional argument. Emotion has nothing to do with it. This is a logical and rational argument based on indisputable facts.

No matter how you try to package it differently, or what kind of a pretty bow you put on the box, it's still got the same thing in it. No amount of dodging, or squirming, or rationalizing will change it. If you put a baseball on top of your car, it's still a baseball. If you put it in your shoe, it's still a baseball. If the person throwing it is an old woman, or a young man, it's still a baseball. If the baseball is shot out of a cannon it's still a baseball.

Without question, and without a doubt the crime is the same and the punishment should be also.

lumberjim · 07-08-2004, 01:07 PM

what if you put the baseball into orbit? then it's a sattelite
in your ass? a suppository
in your lover's ass? a buttplug
in your bra? a falsie

Undertoad · 07-08-2004, 01:12 PM

Same crime if the victim is touched by a hand, versus harshly sodomized?

Same crime if the predator/victim are both men? Both women?

I think sometimes the differences matter.

xoxoxoBruce · 07-09-2004, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Same crime if the victim is touched by a hand, versus harshly sodomized?

Same crime if the predator/victim are both men? Both women?

I think sometimes the differences matter.

That's where sentencing comes into play. The judge takes(should?) that into consideration, but no matter what kind of soap opera comes with it, it's still the same crime. :p

wolf · 07-13-2004, 01:16 PM

In case you'd been wondering what Mary Kay LeTorneau's been up to ...

It seems as though the no contact order remains in place, and the kid is quite focused on violating it.

Beestie · 07-13-2004, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf

It seems as though the no contact order remains in place, and the kid is quite focused on violating it.

The kid is 21 now. How can the court forbid them to see each other?

wolf · 07-13-2004, 01:27 PM

Courts frequently forbid adults to have contact .

PFAs require no contact, as do many probation/parole orders, as is the case here.

07-07-2004, 01:04 PM	#1
Radar Constitutional Scholar Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Ocala, FL Posts: 4,006	Unlike gender, age can be a mitigating circumstance. But for the sake of argument let's say it's a 19 year old teenanger who is an adult. Yes, they should get the same punishment (assuming the person whose car it was wants to press charges) as anyone else who steals a car. The career criminal will do more jail time because he'll get the same amount of time that the other guy got for each car he steals. Less ambiguity means more justice and equity under the law. Judges have already shown that they can be outright dishonest and exceed thier authority as in the case of the Supreme Court which routinely makes unconstitutional rulings so I don't think they should be given much latitude at all in terms of sentencing. They already have mandatory minimum sentencing for some crimes, but what if it weren't mandatory minimums, but just mandatory sentencing. For instance... Steal a car = 1 year in jail with no early release. The boy who steals a car will do 1 full year and everyone who knows about it will make sure they don't do it. The career criminal who is found to have stolen 10 cars will get 10 years; one for each car. __________________ "I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin

07-07-2004, 05:18 PM	#2
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	statutory rape is bloody difficult because there are so many mitigating circumstances, often the younger person is the dominant one and it is totally victimless but sometimes it isn't and getting that difference right is bloody hard. Australia has a fairly good system , after 16 you can screw anyone you want and before that there is a two year leeway system, for example a 15y.o can have sex with a 17y.o. I think that strikes the right balance between giving people freedom and protecting them from exploitation, by 16 you should be capable of making your own choices. I've got a few friends who had flings or relationships of one sort or another with people in their 20s while 16 or 17 and no harm came of it. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

07-08-2004, 12:21 AM	#4
Joe Faux Pithy Euphemist Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 19	I'm the father of a two year old and a five year old. Both boys. If either of them were placed in this situation I would want the fullest extent of the law leveraged against the adult. I would not want race, religion, or gender to intervene and reduce the punishment. Even if the child was sexually mature enough to engage in this activity, he was not legally responsible to make this decision. Too many far-reaching factors from this single event could alter their future hopes and dreams. I'll admit that I'm more disappointed when a person abuses their authority to take advantage of someone. However I feel the penalty for this type of predator should be the same. They prey on our children and should be removed from society. The crux of this discussion is based on the myth that men are mere beasts with raging hormones while women search for “love” and follow their heart. It doesn't matter. Even if one excuse sounds more romantic, both results are the same. (By the way, if this were really true, shouldn't men get a lesser sentence since they are biologically helpless and predisposed to commit such crimes. After all, women are consciously making the choice to follow their heart and “make love” with a minor. Men can't help but follow the dumbstick. Ridiculous!) We are not slaves to our heart or sexual desires and should be held culpable for our actions equally. By having a different scale for men and women, aren't we stating that women, once overcome with the passion of love, are the weaker of the sexes and should receive extra protection from society? To justify this argument you would then need to consider that females are emotionally irresponsible and mentally incompetent. Therefore, society has extended far too many rights to them. Absolutely ridiculous! What happened to equality in the eyes of the law? If we are to consider the sexes to be equally responsible and accountable for their sexual behavior, then we must try them using the same legal rules. Enough isn't done to protect the children. Sex offenders of children rarely spend much time in jail. Sadly, these types of criminals repeatedly offend and releasing a convicted child molester back into society shows complete indifference to the children of the community. Just check out your local city, county, or state sexual offense web page and you'll see just how many of these people, both men and women, move in and out of the system. Not only do we need to make the penalties equal, but severe enough that at the very least the chance for a repeat offense is small. __________________ - Joe Faux Last edited by Joe Faux; 07-08-2004 at 02:32 AM.

07-08-2004, 03:23 AM	#5
Catwoman stalking a Tom Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: on the edge of the english channel Posts: 1,000	I am just trying to push boundaries. Sorry if people can't cope with this level of discussion. Lets get back to safe ground quick. And by the way - personally, I do think men and women should receive the same punishment, if it is the same crime. I merely question whether the same crime is possible, whether it is a man and a woman, or two different men. I also question methods of punishment, and the concept of punishment itself, but this is perhaps food for a different debate. I have stated before that the perspective I present here is not necessarily my opinion. I was interested to see how far we could take this one. Maybe this is it. Such crimes are perhaps too emotional to discuss with much clarity. __________________ I've decided I'm not going to have a signature anymore.

07-08-2004, 12:40 PM	#8
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	Savage Love knows what he's talking about. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

07-07-2004, 05:31 PM	#3
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	But jag, do you agree there ought to at least be a special case regarding teachers/coaches/other people in authority positions in the teenager's lives?

07-08-2004, 01:07 PM	#10
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	what if you put the baseball into orbit? then it's a sattelite in your ass? a suppository in your lover's ass? a buttplug in your bra? a falsie __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

07-08-2004, 01:12 PM	#11
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Same crime if the victim is touched by a hand, versus harshly sodomized? Same crime if the predator/victim are both men? Both women? I think sometimes the differences matter.

07-13-2004, 01:16 PM	#13
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	In case you'd been wondering what Mary Kay LeTorneau's been up to ... It seems as though the no contact order remains in place, and the kid is quite focused on violating it. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

07-13-2004, 01:27 PM	#15
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Courts frequently forbid adults to have contact . PFAs require no contact, as do many probation/parole orders, as is the case here. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

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