We lost.

Been there, done that, including the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, Lancet study.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

dov, we have previously and thoroughly debunked the 100k figure. I know that won't mean anything to you.

Impossible for you to have done so, come to a decisive conclusion on either side of the coin. It matters greatly to me. I have not a clue as to why you would say, I know that won't mean anything to you.

Gen. Tommy Franks, the top officer in the U.S. Central Command for the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, summed up the American military's attitude when he told reporters during the Afghan campaign, "We don't do body counts.
Iraqis Murdered"

I must have taken part in over 3000 wasted posts on the topic. I hold that at least 100k Iraqi citizen were murdered by the Americans. There is nothing you can do, say, or cut and paste, which will alter my position. I will not attempt to prove my belief.

What upsets me the most is when even one murdered Iraqi child becomes a number, a stat.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by wolf

I'm guessing Born Again Christian.

Doh! Of course.

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by dov

I hold that at least 100k Iraqi citizen were murdered by the Americans. There is nothing you can do, say, or cut and paste, which will alter my position. I will not attempt to prove my belief.

Say what you will, you've got to admire someone who refuses to change his position NO MATTER WHAT sort of information he's given to the contrary. That's what my mom calls 'stick-to-it-tiveness'.

[Happy Monkey]

Unfortunately, every day the position becomes more right.

[Trilby]

I'm not arguing with his position. I'm saying you've got to consider new info when it comes in.

[Happy Monkey]

Right, I was just pointing out that with this particular position, the longer he holds out, the more right he becomes.

On an impersonal level, 10k, 100k Iraqi civilian casualties, forgetting mommies seeing their babies shredded or babies watching their mommies shredded by a fragmentation hand grenades, no matter what the number, we can all agree innocent people (not numbers, not stats) were murdered, (collateral damage). It is an illegal invasion, the Commander in Chief is ultimately responsible for war crimes and crimes against humanity, and in the final analysis, will face a jury.

(I won’t mention Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, or transporting prisoners to torture friendly countries at this time)

10k or 100k, same crime, same horror.

The M67 grenade is used by the US armed forces. It replaces the M61 grenade used during Vietnam and the older MK2 "pineapple" grenade used since WWII.The M67 can be thrown about 40 m by the average soldier. It has a 3 to 5 second fuze that ignites explosives packed inside a round body. Shrapnel is provided by the grenade casing, and produces a casualty radius of 15 m, with a fatality radius of 5 m. The arming mechanism is typical of modern grenades: to arm the device, pull the pin; to ignite the fuze, release the spoon.

Originally Posted by Brianna

I'm not arguing with his position. I'm saying you've got to consider new info when it comes in.

Media and numbers doesn’t matter, they are part of the propaganda, desensitizing us into forgetting there are actual human beings dieing, but stats, which every forum I have attended, focus on impersonal stats, pure ego, 100k dead, oh ya? I will prove 20k dead, pats self on the back.

The first casualty when war comes is Truth. U.S. Senator Hiram Johnson, 1917

In wartime, truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies. Winston Churchill

We live in a dirty and dangerous world. There are some things the general public does not need to know about and shouldn't. I believe democracy flourishes when the government can take legitimate steps to keep its secrets and when the press can decide whether to print what it knows. Katharine Graham, Washington Post owner

All propaganda must be so popular and on such an intellectual level, that even the most stupid of those towards whom it is directed will understand it.... Through clever and constant application of propaganda, people can be made to see paradise as hell, and also the other way around, to consider the most wretched sort of life as paradise. Adolf Hitler

Wartime media propaganda

Originally Posted by Brianna

*sigh* He's older, he's Jewish, he's depressed and, if that weren't enough, he's arrogant.

You are pretty insightful, fuck the iggy, I never iggy anybody whoe can see through at least 66 layers of my persona. Square that and you will be close to knowing me.

[Trilby]

All politics aside, dov, I fear you are not sleeping because you are ruminating on horrible things that you cannot control and it is making you feel depressed. Or, you are depressed because you're not sleeping due to ruminating...look: The point is, have you seen someone about this?

Dov, you are making yourself soul sick over something that you can do nothing about. While you may have a low opinion of the US, imagine what it is to be an American who has a conscience and a sense of justice and cares deeply about her country. At least your hands are relatively clean. Ours are not. I look around me and realize that every other person voted for W. to continue another 4 years of this barbarian war. Many of my fellow Americans STILL think the war in Iraq is justified. You haven't met UG, yet. I'm sure he'll be along shortly and you will NOT be delighted to make his acquaintance. A year or so ago I read a paper written by one of your countrymen who is a Colonel in the Canadian Army and was writing from his position as a delegate to a conference on the international laws of war. This Canadian Colonel made a brilliant argument that the current US administration and the top ranking members of our armed forces would be found guilty if the US was ever forced to go before an international tribunal such as the one at Nuremberg which condemned so many of the German high command to death or life long imprisonment after WWII.

Thank you for saying that I looked happy in the picture in my profile. I WAS happy. I had just spent a week camped in the wilds of southwestern Colorado and hadn't listened to the news on TV or even so much as glanced at a newspaper. I spent my days traveling the back roads with my cat - yes, my cat - and reading the poetry of Mary Oliver and Gary Snyder, and marveling at encounters with great horned owls and night hawks and my very first wild lynx and listening to the coyotes' song at night.

I am acquainted with one of Colorado's state representatives and he told me that after the last legislative session he was so soul sick that he had to retreat to the mountains alone for a month because he was so weary of his fellow members of the legislature and humanity in general.

Maybe you need to do the equivalent. The sorrows of this world are great and our spirits are fragile. Take care of yours.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by Brianna

*sigh* He's older, he's Jewish, he's depressed and, if that weren't enough, he's arrogant.

Just the kind I go for!
In a perfect world, we would've hooked up, but, now, *SIGH*, we never will.

The odor I get off of this guy is 'crank.' Like tw, he is ruled by his resentments, and his resentments border on hysteria, as his "about me, and I hate Bush" post shows.

I don't think anybody has any business hating on somebody who breaks two totalitarian regimes while in office. That's the action of colossally stupid people. Or of people who just can't cope with human liberty -- but now I'm repeating myself.

Originally Posted by Brianna

All politics aside, dov, I fear you are not sleeping because you are ruminating on horrible things that you cannot control and it is making you feel depressed. Or, you are depressed because you're not sleeping due to ruminating...look: The point is, have you seen someone about this?

Thank you for your concern, Brianna. I do some social work, (one of my degrees is psychology), and I know the symptoms of depression, including sleeplessness, lack of libido, etc. I am not depressed, thank god. I have always been an insomniac, always. I power nap, an hour here, three hours there. My life style that I have created for myself enables me to do so. I am very rarely tired. (Possibly reading your mind, no, I am not manic)

I have a wonderful network of friends, teachers, and mentors.

My first cousin is my Doctor, he knows my situation, re sleep, of course, and knows it is not an issue and that I am healthy physically and emotionally.

I will put this as gently as I can, as I mentioned I appreciate your concern, but do not brain pick me anymore please, on a non-intellectual level.

I never ruminate. lol I face my demons head on.

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

I don't think anybody has any business hating on somebody who breaks two totalitarian regimes while in office.

Afghanistan had its largest poppy crop in its history, supplying the world with eighty six percent of its opium. The War Lords are crying all the way to the bank.

Seems you are a fan of Anarchy re both Afghanistan and Iraq. Anybody can break anything, (who breaks two totalitarian regimes.) Fixing it take brains and there definitely is a lack there of. He has not a clue how to fix it. He cannot stay, he cannot leave, and worst of all, he cannot even steal their oil. Four billion dollars a week, out of your pockets, for the troops to do absolutely nothing, other than being killed.

At least now I know your standards, if you have any at all is the question. You do the clone thingy pretty well, but then again all clones do the clone thingy pretty well.

Answer me two things, Urbane Guerrilla, please, where are the WMDs, not the WP and Napalm the American troops are using, and do you remember that guy OBL?

Originally Posted by marichiko

A year or so ago I read a paper written by one of your countrymen who is a Colonel in the Canadian Army and was writing from his position as a delegate to a conference on the international laws of war. This Canadian Colonel made a brilliant argument that the current US administration and the top ranking members of our armed forces would be found guilty if the US was ever forced to go before an international tribunal such as the one at Nuremberg which condemned so many of the German high command to death or life long imprisonment after WWII.

In addition, The Hague where Slobodan Milosevic and others accused of war crimes are being tried.
The Hague

Technically, if bush crossed the border, into Canada, I can make a citizens arrest and Canada can try him for war crimes and crimes against humanity. Technically, I said, not practically, but I would love cuffing bush. hahahaha

(Also tease him with a touch of flogging, but I am sure condi is better at it)

Originally Posted by marichiko

The sorrows of this world are great and our spirits are fragile. Take care of yours.

The sorrows of this world are my sorrows and my responsibility.
I am blessed with grace and my spirit is forever strong and unaffected thank you, marichiko.

I have my outlets.