Is there free will in heaven?

[Beestie]

Originally posted by lumberjim

i will not accept that a truly good person who does not happen to accept jesus h christ as his savior will fry for eternity. that's ludicrous. can you honestly say you DO believe that? really???

I've always found my Christianity works better if I just apply it to myself. Even as a Christian, I bristle when other Christians attempt to determine my level of faith to size me up for conversion as the door-to-door faith peddlers do.

Sorry to interrupt your debate but that is a bit of an odd point about my fellow Christians that I keep wanting to sand down. Sometimes I think that prostletizers are more concerned with just getting a conversion than in truly instilling the person with Christian values - love your brother, etc. Some Christians act as though there's a cosmic scorecard or as though a conversion is like a closing sale and there's an eternal knife set waiting if you close enough.

I'll say this in conclusion as religious debates are not really my cup of tea. After reading this thread, it is as clear as mountain air how the history of the world is only slightly more than the history of unfilfilled religious ambitions. For me, religious ambitions should be aimed inward and not outward.

For Christians, I wonder sometimes if the focus on converting others is but a distraction from or a procrastination of the substantially more challenging task of making one's self more Christ-like.

[mrnoodle]

You're right Beestie. I hope I"m not coming across as one of the people you describe, because it's the farthest thing from my mind. As far as I know, I've never been responsible for the 'conversion' of anyone. But in the context of a religious discussion, I won't shy away from blabbing my beliefs ad nauseum.edited to note: only 3 souls left before I get the toaster oven!!!

[Beestie]

Originally posted by mrnoodle

I hope I"m not coming across as one of the people you describe...

... only 3 souls left before I get the toaster oven!!!

You don't impress me as that so I hope I didn't inadvertently imply that you did.

My point, really, is that I can't "argue" my faith with someone since its really no different of a choice than paper or plastic only less tangible. Although the importance of the choice is to me very significant, the basis for the choice is largely non-existent.

Toaster Oven! Dude, you must be saving oceans of souls! I'll be lucky to get one of those things that, when you drop it in water, turns into a dinosaur only you can't tell which one or that its even a dinosaur at all.

[Slartibartfast]

Originally posted by Undertoad
Ghandi was however lacking the right *kind* of faith and therefore, according to your belief system, is currently roasting.

from a 1990 encyclical by John Paul II [Redemptoris Missio]

>>>

The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church. Since salvation is offered to all, it moust be concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have the opportunity to come to know or accept the Gospel revelation or to enter the Church... For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church, but enlightens them in a way which is accomodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation.

>>>

Call it the loophole salvation method. John Paul is saying God reserves the right to save anyone, Catholic or otherwise.

Now I've argued this point with a Catholic who seemed to know lots more Catholic teachings than me, and she pointed out this was not an infallible teaching, and that certain earlier teachings that are infallible spell almost certain damnation for all non-Catholics.

Call me an optimist for siding with my quote, and honestly if I found out that the official teaching was otherwise, it would put more distance between me and the Catholic church.

[lumberjim]

slarti,

forgive my blasphemous tone, but, the current pope writes in a loophole to make catholicism more pallateable, and it holds water with god? isn't that quote in direct opposition to the one mrnoodle posted?

Call it the loophole salvation method. John Paul is saying God reserves the right to save anyone, Catholic or otherwise.

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

you can't rewrite the rules. not even if you happen to be the pope. or do catholics believe that john paul II gets commumicaes from the almighty? what, he got an evangelical memo clarifiying the rule? Did God's Lawyers write that in as a disclaimer...ie...

we reserve the right to make exceptions. not all souls will qualify. contact your local salvation dealer for details. Not available in all areas, restrictions apply. tax and tags additional.

[Slartibartfast]

Originally posted by Beestie
[i]
Toaster Oven! Dude, you must be saving oceans of souls! I'll be lucky to get one of those things that, when you drop it in water, turns into a dinosaur only you can't tell which one or that its even a dinosaur at all.

You guys get prizes? I get a one dollar coupon to Mcdonalds for each soul. That's just evil I tell you, I should complain to management.

[Slartibartfast]

Originally posted by lumberjim
slarti,

forgive my blasphemous tone, but, the current pope writes in a loophole to make catholicism more pallateable, and it holds water with god? isn't that quote in direct opposition to the one mrnoodle posted?
[/size]

Blasphemous? I've heard worse. Carry on.

Someone's going to have to please point out that quote, I can't find it and skimming the six pages of this thread once is far as I can get without my head imploding.

But look, you've got several groups of people to look at:

-those born before Jesus, are they all damned because they could never hear about an event in the future?

-Those that have never heard of Jesus because they are in isolated geographic places.

-unbaptized babies.

-and finally, those that have heard the Good News (TM) but heard it improperly, poorly, or wrongly so they never did get a chance to accept Jesus the 'right way'.

Is it wrong to argue that since God's salvation is universal there must be a valid way for it to be available to EVERYONE somehow?

[lumberjim]

Someone's going to have to please point out that quote,

i put the two right there. your summary of the quote you posted, and mrnoodle's scripture quote.

the two quotes are at odds.

Is it wrong to argue that since God's salvation is universal there must be a valid way for it to be available to EVERYONE somehow?

no.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally posted by Slartibartfast
But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have the opportunity to come to know or accept the Gospel revelation or to enter the Church...

Not only had Gandhi had the opportunity to know about Christianity, he devoted his life to kicking the Christians out of his country! Not because they were Christians, but still.

[Slartibartfast]

Originally posted by Happy Monkey
Not only had Gandhi had the opportunity to know about Christianity, he devoted his life to kicking the Christians out of his country! Not because they were Christians, but still.

Do you mean Gandhi's efforts to free India from the English government? If that is the way you mean, then you are right.

But from what I understand, Gandhi was very tolerant of other religions, and he specifically acted to promote the tolerance between Hindu and Moslem and Christian people in India.

For all I know Gandhi may be frying in hell, but the fact is that I don't know, the issue is between Gandhi and God. The Pope's quote is saying you can't out of hand assume anyone is condemned to hell.

To reconcile my quote with mrnoodles, that salvation is still exclusively through Jesus. The acceptance of him (and the Church) can happen at the moment of death through some unique form of grace granted by God.

It is like those people who live a terrible life but have a deathbed conversion. In a way it looks like a cop-out to say that God would accept such a thing, but give the Big Guy some credit, I bet he can tell a real conversion with full repentance from a fake one.

[smoothmoniker]

Originally posted by lumberjim

you can't rewrite the rules. not even if you happen to be the pope. or do catholics believe that john paul II gets commumicaes from the almighty?

that, in point of fact, is exactly what they believe. That the pope is the living mouthpiece of god, able to make infallible edicts concerning matters of faith and practice.

Including the ability to correct and ammend previous "infallible edicts" concerning matters of faith and practice.
-sm

[Elspode]

Is it wrong for me to consider all of this to be just about too damn funny?

[wolf]

No. I like watching christians argue doctrine too.

It's okay.

Sometimes I help them.

(When I was in college I used to help members of Campus Crusade for Christ experience their first spiritual crisis. It was their own silly fault for knocking on my door ...)

[Slartibartfast]

Originally posted by smoothmoniker


that, in point of fact, is exactly what they believe. That the pope is the living mouthpiece of god, able to make infallible edicts concerning matters of faith and practice.

Including the ability to correct and ammend previous "infallible edicts" concerning matters of faith and practice.
-sm

Actually though if it is infallible, it is infallible forever. You can clarify and interpret all you like, but even the current Pope can't delete previous delcarations.

[smoothmoniker]

well, thus the logical contradiction. and thus a strong reason why I'm not catholic.

Also, I'm anit-funny-hat. so there's that.

-sm