ESR's Anti-Idiotarian Manifesto

[elSicomoro]

That settles it Griff...if I run for mayor of Philadelphia this coming year and win, I want you as my Chief of Staff. Yeah, you'll have to spend some time down here in SEPA, but I'll hook you up with a nice apartment over at the Phoenix (b/c you'll have to have an address in the city). Hell, for that matter, I'll find jobs for several members of the Cellar...even if I do that, I won't have nearly as many staff members as John Street currently does.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by sycamore
...even if I do that, I won't have nearly as many staff members as John Street currently does.

But will you have more then he'll have after he gets done laying people off to make budget? After all, he says he's going to cut management first.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by MaggieL
But will you have more then he'll have after he gets done laying people off to make budget? After all, he says he's going to cut management first.

So that explains why 2500 jobs will need to be cut.

This whole deficit situation smells like a rat. Unless his union goons start threatening large numbers of people, I don't see him being re-elected next year. More in another thread...

[Chefranden]

Originally posted by Tobiasly

That's utter BS. Do you honestly believe that the media and the government are that powerful? Yes, they have a big say in what we see and hear, but they can't possibly impose some all-encompassing control over what we hear and what we don't.

You don't think there have been tapes of bin Laden's on Al-Jazeera that our government would prefer weren't shown? I thought we "weren't allowed" to hear that stuff?

And you think the media wouldn't air something like a bin Laden apology? Are you serious? They care about one thing. And it's not information control; it's ratings. Any news network would jump at the chance to air a bin Laden apology if they came across it.

You really think every single media outlet in this country is part of an overarching conspiracy to prevent the American public from hearing what they don't want us to hear?

Oh, and of <B>course</B> the media is in bed with the Bush administration. Yeah, they love each other all right.

This wouldn't be the same media that covered the war in Afghanistan and The Persian Gulf would it. You know, the Media that sat in nice safe air condition buildings and reported just what they were told to report. The media that never even protested not being allowed to go where they wanted to go and see what they wanted to see, is that the one. Oh sure I'm sure you are right. I'm sure they will tell the American people the real story behind the curtain of Oz, especially a story that might jepradize Mr. Bush's favorite war to be. Just like they told us every thing about how the government screwed up on 9/11.

[Chefranden]

Originally posted by MaggieL
...Chefranden, what makes someone evil is not their disagreeing with me. The Jihadists can sit in their homeland and disagree with me until the Sun burns out for all I care. What makes them evil is annoucing their intention to impose thier religion on my people, and kill me in the process, and then beginning to prosecute their campaign.

Self-defense doesn't always happen over a timespan of minutes, hours, days or even months. When someone has declared their intent to kill you, has the apparent means, and has already executed several successful attacks, what possible obligation could you be under to allow them to continue unless you reach them in hot pursuit?

There *is* no hot pursuit of a suicide bomber.

Well you are right there, no hot pursuit needed. That’s one criminal that takes care of himself.

Just for the moment I'm going to agree with your self-defense argument. Since this is Self-defense:

1. How does that justify (carefully of course) killing thousands of people that didn't have anything to do with the act? And once they are dead, how does that make you and your people safer, especially when the killing doesn't even lead to the capture or destruction of the master mind or any of his important people? There are some 1.3 Billion Muslims in the world with some 300 million of those considered to be radical. How many of that 300 million will need to be killed to make you safe Maggie? After all any one of the 300 million might be hiding Osama bin Laden.

2. Are we really in danger of being rubbed out by Osama and friends? Or are there things that are more likely to kill us that perhaps we should spend our money and effort on? Let's see: examining some causes of death in the decade starting in 1991: Heart disease: 7.10million; Cancer: 5.53million; Stroke: 1.68million; Chronic Lower Respiratory Disease: 1.22milion; Adverse Reactions to Prescribed Drugs: 1.06million; Accidents: .98million; Diabetes: .69million; Pneumonia, Influenza: .65million; Alzheimer’s Disease; .45million; Nephritis, nephritic syndrome, nephrosis; .36 million; Septicemia: .31million; Suicide: .29million; Homicide: .17million; AIDS: .14million; Terrorist action .003million (or 3001, My reckoning of US citizen terrorist deaths are as follows: Trade towers: 2,726; Waco: 80; Murrah Building: 167; Washington Sniper 10; Bombing of the Kenyan embassy: 12; First bombing of the trade towers: 6; for a total of 3001.).

Well I don't know Maggie, it looks like you and your people are 46 times more likely to die of AIDS then of Osama. Perhaps we should bomb Gay's and Intravenous Druggies. I'm sure the LA, SanFransico and New York, being full of good citizens, won't mind the collateral damage since they know that we are being careful. Seems like we spent $several billion killing a few thousand Afghanis and didn't get Osama. We spent $2.3 million in Africa on the AIDS thing. Are we really using our resources wisely?
Apparently you and your people are 353 times more likely to get rubbed out by prescription drugs. If Osama has you worried you must be absolutely terrified when you open your medicine cabinet. I can see why you are upset. It's enough to give a person a heart attack. Speaking of hearts, you and your people are 2366 times more likely to killed by your own hearts then by Osama. Is that ironic or what? Maybe you should try a pre-emptive strike, Maggie, before your heart has the chance of doing you in.

[edited for spelling by, be]

[Undertoad]

1. How might the world be safer because there was a strong, resolute response to 9/11? Considering that 9/11 was, in itself, made possible by the lame response to the previous terrorist attacks? Who knows what sort of petro-bucks would be flowing into bin Laden's group right now, if we'd just shrugged and said eh.

2. Why not be honest and calculate your numbers based on economic damage, not simply those immediately killed.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by Chefranden
Well I don't know Maggie, it looks like you and your people are 46 times more likely to die of AIDS then of Osama. Perhaps we should bomb Gay's and Intravenous Druggies.

Nice move--baiting and a smear job all at once. Whoever it is that you might think "my people" are, "Gays and IV drug users" is certainly wide of the mark. (Lesbians are not at higher HIV risk than the general population. Bisexual women are perhaps higher-risk than lesbians to the extent of their unprotected sex with men....which probably still leaves them at lower risk than straight women. All irrelevant to the present discussion.)

The people I want stopped *aren't done yet*; by their own claim this is only the beginning. Your pseudoactuarial anaysis is also irrelevant to their ultimate goals. After all, when the Nazis first started out they hadn't actually exterminated many Jews yet either, mostly for lack of opportunity. After a few years of appeasement they managed to create some dandy opportunities, though.

Nor are the Jihadists fairly compared to natural causes of death; there will always be natual causes of death; until we learn to be immortal the aggregate death rate will always be 100%.

I happen to think that dying because you let religious fanatics take over is an especially stupid and ignominious way to go. If that's actually to your liking because (even though you've tried to veil this message a little) "Jihadists aren't so bad because they only want to put queers to death", you should perhaps consider migrating to someplace like Nigeria, where lately they've been demonstrating who else is on their list. You might learn something; not all the lessons about the Jihadists are contained in their fatwas.

[Griff]

Originally posted by MaggieL

I happen to think that dying because you let religious fanatics take over is an especially stupid and ignominious way to go.

Lets not forget that even in the good old USA, this is possible. Unfortunately, our nuts are in the forefront of the movement to take the war to their nuts. Our nuts or heretics (yikes strong language) from the Catholic/Lutheran/Episcopalian perspective believe they can bring on the second coming by fighting for Israel and converting the Jews. Sounds sorta familiar doesn't it. The Left Behind series is second only to the Bible in sales to American "Christians."

This weekend marks the end of the Catholic year with the Feast of Christ the King, its a time of reflection for us. The battle between good and evil takes place first and foremost in the human heart where the choice between love and hate is made daily not in some apocolyptic fantasy. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that we need to be careful not to empower our nuts who believe church and American state are one and while they have yet to cross the line their nuts have, the potential may be there.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by Griff
Our nuts or heretics (yikes strong language) from the Catholic/Lutheran/Episcopalian perspective believe they can bring on the second coming by fighting for Israel and converting the Jews. .

There certainly are lunatic fundie Christian sects that claim to beleive such things, but I wouldn't describe them as particularly Catholic, Lutheran or Episcopalian...if anything that sounds more like lapsed Baptist spin-off.

That aside, I'd rate their "taking over" as about as "possible" as the re-ascendance of the "Heaven's Gate" crowd. To judge their incidence among the populatrion, count the bumper-stickers you see on the freeway displaying the word "rapture"

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that we need to be careful not to empower our nuts who believe church and American state are one...

And that is *exactly* what the Manifesto (remeber the Manifesto?) is talking about when it decries <i>a Christian-chauvinist political agenda that echoes the religious absolutism of our enemies</i>.

The local "Idiotarians of the Left" have been stridently vocal in this thread; there don't seem to be any "Idiotarians of the Right" here.

[Griff]

Whoops, I didn't make myself understood. What I was saying was that Orthodox or mainstream Christianity does not subscribe to this kind of thinking.

Manifesto? Oh that manifesto, maybe its time to read it.

[Griff]

Originally posted by sycamore
That settles it Griff...if I run for mayor of Philadelphia this coming year and win, I want you as my Chief of Staff. Yeah, you'll have to spend some time down here in SEPA, but I'll hook you up with a nice apartment over at the Phoenix (b/c you'll have to have an address in the city). Hell, for that matter, I'll find jobs for several members of the Cellar...even if I do that, I won't have nearly as many staff members as John Street currently does.

No offense, but you do understand that living in SEPA probably have me sucking the barrel of my 12 ga in less than 6 mos.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by Griff
Whoops, I didn't make myself understood. What I was saying was that Orthodox or mainstream Christianity does not subscribe to this kind of thinking.

Ah...OK...I get it. Parsed your conjunction a bit differently from how you intended it.

[Griff]

Just a touch of conjunctionitist.

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by Chefranden
You know, the Media that sat in nice safe air condition buildings and reported just what they were told to report.

Were told by whom? Who exactly is it that tells the media what they can and can't report?

[Nic Name]

Karl Rove

http://www.dangfunny.com/News/strategery.html