US... the day is coming, please

[queequeger]

Originally Posted by Cloud

you cannot apply logical reasoning to the unknowable

Yes you can, we do it all the time. That's what philosophy majors DO when they're not acting smarmy.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

As opposed to the things we CAN know... because historically, we've got such a good track record with all the things we thought we knew for sure, right?

I don't get it, are you saying that we shouldn't try to be sure because we've been wrong? If that IS what you're saying it's a pretty ridiculous argument. People used to think the earth was flat, blah blah blah. No one can say they know FOR SURE they're not a figment of a giant space beetle's dream... that doesn't mean they should spend their whole lives pondering the question. Do you know for sure the next time you sleep something won't kill you? No, not 100%, but are you going to try and stay awake until you ARE sure? You find the most likely solution to a question and move on until there is new information.

My main point is, that we've learned a lot of new information and it means that the most likely solution is no longer the magic man in the sky. We're figuring out how things work, and all of our logic tells us that God was a crutch used by our forbears to explain what they couldn't figure out at the time.

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Making "definite decisions" should not be the immediate goal for either science or religion (though obviously not everyone agrees with me as many faiths are more obstinate and foolishly dogmatic in the face of evidence.) It's about striving to understand. Humans ultimately don't know shit, through science or faith. We do the best we can. A person who is completely unwilling to consider seemingly unlikely possibilities for the unknown (how's that quantum mechanics thing working out?) is no better than a fundamentalist who puts an ancient book on the same pedestal.

Now we're arguing semantics. My version of a "definite decision" is one that we are sure enough about to work into our world view. Gravity, evolution, magnetism, etc. The reason we assume these things is that up until now (and using the scientific method, not uncontrolled observation) all of our evidence points to the proper formation of these theories. They COULD have been disproven, but they haven't been(As opposed to god, who can't be disproven because of the "he's testing us" argument). And it's not to say they won't be reversed or altered, but for now our best bet is moving forward with these things as a base for reasoning.

Your version of "definite decision" (or perhaps what you assumed my version was) is something we can know 100% for sure. No one above a middle school level of education would argue this exists (except maybe your very enthusiastic religiouso).

So in conclusion, while I don't know for sure that there isn't a magical man in the sky who created everything "just because," and that in order to test our resolve he has placed mountains of evidence contradicting his descriptions, I can assume well enough to bet my "eternal soul."

Also, on a loosely connected note: If you haven't seen the movie "Man From Earth," don't read anything about it, or even the back cover, rent it and watch it. The surprise is what makes it such a great movie. It's basically a look into some possible reactions of intellectuals to information that severely challenges their world views with an unlikely possibilities.