Female Muslim medics 'disobey hygiene rules' - Page 5

BigV · 02-21-2008, 11:13 AM

I respectfully disagree, Flint.

All solutions involve telling people stuff. And it (abstinence) is more than a theoretical solution, it is a real, partial, solution. Just as talking to people is part of the solution. There isn't one transmission vector, and there isn't one "magic bullet" solution. All progress in the area of reducing the spread of AIDS has involved simply telling people, as a start.

We agree that being abstinent is difficult. But a conversation where abstinence is part of the discussion can easily be done. Such a conversation can easily lead to more understanding where similarly effective methods (condom use) that are much more likely to be implemented can be introduced. You don't even have to start the conversation with "Be Abstinent!" But ignoring it is being willfully blind.

Flint · 02-21-2008, 11:26 AM

What you are talking about is a common-sense approach that covers all the basics. That's not what you get when you approach the subject from a religion-crazed mindset. The same mindset that tells you "I am not going to wash my hands before I do sugery because God doesn't want me to."

Preaching abstinence to the exclusion of condom education is one example of stupid religion-based ideas that come from this hemisphere, from white people! To demonstrate that it's not just those "crazy Muslims" injecting their religious attrocities on our society. We do it to ourselves, too.

Happy Monkey · 02-21-2008, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

And how many individual patients does one doctor with germ-ridden sleeves see in a day?

A few, if by "see" you mean "perform surgery on". Connecting that to an increased chance of infection, even the most generous interpretation doesn't come close to "infect a whole hospital".

Happy Monkey · 02-21-2008, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigV

We agree that being abstinent is difficult. But a conversation where abstinence is part of the discussion can easily be done. Such a conversation can easily lead to more understanding where similarly effective methods (condom use) that are much more likely to be implemented can be introduced. You don't even have to start the conversation with "Be Abstinent!" But ignoring it is being willfully blind.

Flint used some imprecise shorthand in his initial mention, but the common dichotomy when it comes to sex education is "abstinence only" vs comprehensive, including abstinence. Abstinence only education is what the religious folks Flint was referring to are pushing, and while the effectiveness of the abstinence message are one thing, the effectiveness on disease avoidance among the inevitable kids who do have sex is worthless.

BigV · 02-21-2008, 01:19 PM

Flint called their "shorthand" nonsense. Then he repeated it. I called him on the repetition. The only defense against ignorance of this type is education. Repeating the nonsense gives it more momentum, and Flint was doing precisely what he was complaining about. Flint, for all his flaws, is no ignorant hypocrite, and I urged him to avoid talking like one.

As for abstinence's worthless effectiveness among kids who do have sex... that makes it *exactly as effective as* any other proven remedy that is not employed. It's not the "fault" of abstinence that makes it worthless in the situation you describe. It is the fault of the people not using the remedy.

Flint · 02-21-2008, 01:26 PM

flaws?!

BigV · 02-21-2008, 01:48 PM

Inciting envy in us mortals by your godly perfection.

That, and you're a drummer.

Flint · 02-21-2008, 02:25 PM

Now, let’s rewind…

:::reedle-deedle-eedle-eedle-oop!:::

As a footnote to the point: the constraints that religion can put on the scope of a person’s thought process, leading to ridiculous behavior such as Islamic surgeons not wanting to wash their hands properly, for exclusively religious reasons; I want to point out that Islam does not hold exclusive rights to religiously-inspired stupid behavior. For example, right here in America, we have people preaching “abstinence-only” plans as a comprehensive response to the AIDS pandemic. Which is equally stupid, and refutes the idea that one religion leads to more stupid behavior than another.

Now, how many times do I have to mention religion before Bruce shows up and gives me the business?

Aliantha · 02-21-2008, 03:44 PM

For christs sake V, it's pretty clear what Flint was saying. What's your problem?

Flint · 02-21-2008, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

What's your problem?

Maybe he has AIDS. Funny story: Sarah Silverman, on her show, is filling out the paperwork at the place where they test you for AIDS.

Nurse: Under sexual partners...you put two numbers?
Sarah: Oh, that one is for "the front"
Nurse: :::speechless::: But, they're the same number...
Sarah: Yeah, I'm kinda "OCD" like that.

Aliantha · 02-21-2008, 04:16 PM

Now you're just being a shit stirrer again Flint.

Flint · 02-21-2008, 04:20 PM

What, I can't tell funny stories?

BigV · 02-21-2008, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigV

For instance....

Are you saying that abstinence is an ineffective way of stopping the spread of AIDS?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigV

Abstinence is an almost certain way of preventing the spread of the AIDS virus, and you know it.

Being abstinent is, apparently, supremely difficult. But it does substantially reduce the transmission of the virus. Naturally, sharing virus laden bodily fluids in other ways does still represent a transmission vector, like needle sharing for example.

Don't be as deliberately ignorant and hysterical as those other morons, religious or otherwise, in spreading misinformation. You're too sharp for that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigV

I respectfully disagree, Flint.

All solutions involve telling people stuff. And it (abstinence) is more than a theoretical solution, it is a real, partial, solution. Just as talking to people is part of the solution. There isn't one transmission vector, and there isn't one "magic bullet" solution. All progress in the area of reducing the spread of AIDS has involved simply telling people, as a start.

We agree that being abstinent is difficult. But a conversation where abstinence is part of the discussion can easily be done. Such a conversation can easily lead to more understanding where similarly effective methods (condom use) that are much more likely to be implemented can be introduced. You don't even have to start the conversation with "Be Abstinent!" But ignoring it is being willfully blind.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigV

Flint called their "shorthand" nonsense. Then he repeated it. I called him on the repetition. The only defense against ignorance of this type is education. Repeating the nonsense gives it more momentum, and Flint was doing precisely what he was complaining about. Flint, for all his flaws, is no ignorant hypocrite, and I urged him to avoid talking like one.

As for abstinence's worthless effectiveness among kids who do have sex... that makes it *exactly as effective as* any other proven remedy that is not employed. It's not the "fault" of abstinence that makes it worthless in the situation you describe. It is the fault of the people not using the remedy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aliantha

For christs sake V, it's pretty clear what Flint was saying. What's your problem?

For Christ's sake, I explained my "problem" in four different posts? Can't you read?

Aliantha · 02-21-2008, 04:43 PM

Yes I can read thankyou very much. You should know that by now without asking.

As I said, it's pretty clear what Flints point was. Why are you choosing to be so 'obtuse'?

BigV · 02-21-2008, 04:43 PM

you forgot to bold obtuse

02-21-2008, 11:13 AM	#61
BigV Goon Squad Leader Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,063	I respectfully disagree, Flint. All solutions involve telling people stuff. And it (abstinence) is more than a theoretical solution, it is a real, partial, solution. Just as talking to people is part of the solution. There isn't one transmission vector, and there isn't one "magic bullet" solution. All progress in the area of reducing the spread of AIDS has involved simply telling people, as a start. We agree that being abstinent is difficult. But a conversation where abstinence is part of the discussion can easily be done. Such a conversation can easily lead to more understanding where similarly effective methods (condom use) that are much more likely to be implemented can be introduced. You don't even have to start the conversation with "Be Abstinent!" But ignoring it is being willfully blind. __________________ Be Just and Fear Not.

02-21-2008, 11:26 AM	#62
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	What you are talking about is a common-sense approach that covers all the basics. That's not what you get when you approach the subject from a religion-crazed mindset. The same mindset that tells you "I am not going to wash my hands before I do sugery because God doesn't want me to." Preaching abstinence to the exclusion of condom education is one example of stupid religion-based ideas that come from this hemisphere, from white people! To demonstrate that it's not just those "crazy Muslims" injecting their religious attrocities on our society. We do it to ourselves, too. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

02-21-2008, 01:19 PM	#65
BigV Goon Squad Leader Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,063	Flint called their "shorthand" nonsense. Then he repeated it. I called him on the repetition. The only defense against ignorance of this type is education. Repeating the nonsense gives it more momentum, and Flint was doing precisely what he was complaining about. Flint, for all his flaws, is no ignorant hypocrite, and I urged him to avoid talking like one. As for abstinence's worthless effectiveness among kids who do have sex... that makes it exactly as effective as any other proven remedy that is not employed. It's not the "fault" of abstinence that makes it worthless in the situation you describe. It is the fault of the people not using the remedy. __________________ Be Just and Fear Not.

02-21-2008, 01:26 PM	#66
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	flaws?! __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

02-21-2008, 01:48 PM	#67
BigV Goon Squad Leader Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,063	Inciting envy in us mortals by your godly perfection. That, and you're a drummer. __________________ Be Just and Fear Not.

02-21-2008, 02:25 PM	#68
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Now, let’s rewind… :::reedle-deedle-eedle-eedle-oop!::: As a footnote to the point: the constraints that religion can put on the scope of a person’s thought process, leading to ridiculous behavior such as Islamic surgeons not wanting to wash their hands properly, for exclusively religious reasons; I want to point out that Islam does not hold exclusive rights to religiously-inspired stupid behavior. For example, right here in America, we have people preaching “abstinence-only” plans as a comprehensive response to the AIDS pandemic. Which is equally stupid, and refutes the idea that one religion leads to more stupid behavior than another. Now, how many times do I have to mention religion before Bruce shows up and gives me the business? __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

02-21-2008, 03:44 PM	#69
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	For christs sake V, it's pretty clear what Flint was saying. What's your problem? __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

02-21-2008, 04:16 PM	#71
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Now you're just being a shit stirrer again Flint. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

02-21-2008, 04:20 PM	#72
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	What, I can't tell funny stories? __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

02-21-2008, 04:43 PM	#74
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	Yes I can read thankyou very much. You should know that by now without asking. As I said, it's pretty clear what Flints point was. Why are you choosing to be so 'obtuse'? __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

02-21-2008, 04:43 PM	#75
BigV Goon Squad Leader Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Seattle Posts: 27,063	you forgot to bold obtuse __________________ Be Just and Fear Not.

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