Spelling is ruining the English language

[Kingswood]

Originally Posted by Beestie

And the idea of spelling reform will just make it worse. First of all, what rules do you propose to use to decide how to respell a word? I suspect you are taking for granted the idea that there will not be any controversy in deciding on a uniform and all-encompassing set of rules to apply and that the application of these rules will not create a new set of inefficiencies for the descendants of English to struggle with. And what do you propose we do with the body of written work that exists in what will become "the olde spelling?" A respelling effort will just create more separation between today's English and yesterday's English.

Ironic since it is exactly that separation which is at the root of the problem you are proposing to solve.

I do not support large changes to spelling. I am well aware that large changes to spelling would not be acceptable to the general public. This is amply shown by the indignation shown by some posters above, some of whom would rather make personal attacks than refute my more difficult points.

I do not have a particular set of rules in mind because that is something that is a work in progress.

You are incorrect when you believe I feel there won't be any controversy about the best way to decide on the changes. There are many views as to the best approach to spelling reform. These views go all the way from introducing small changes (which I advocate) to extremes such as introducing new alphabets. And some people just like to create new ways of writing English with the same spirit of fun that kids have when making up secret codes.

Your fears about being unable to read older literature are an important concern, but these fears are unfounded. With a modest reform, the familiar shapes of words won't change that much, and the changes would be relatively few. I expect that students would be taught to read the old spellings alongside the new. This is a plausible approach because it takes less time to learn a word with an irregular spelling well enough to read it than it takes to reproduce its spelling faithfully.

Seriously, for fuck's sake, just read a fucking book on the origins of English, STFU, and learn Spanish if it bothers you that badly.

Really, READ A FUCKING BOOK cures 99% of the world's ills. The rest of them are cured by GO THE FUCK OUTSIDE AND TAKE A FUCKING WALK.

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Maybe that's why he's a prince instead of king.

Nah, that's all to do with his Mum still breathing...

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by Kingswood

Here's an interesting puzzle - how many words of this kind can we find? My list has 23 such words, derived from these five root words: ceiling, conceit (including conceive etc), deceit (including deceive etc), perceive, receipt (including receive etc).

Ancient.

Sufficient.

There are several more that I'll remember later.

[Trilby]

Originally Posted by Tiki

Really, READ A FUCKING BOOK cures 99% of the world's ills. The rest of them are cured by GO THE FUCK OUTSIDE AND TAKE A FUCKING WALK.

Ah. Someone is pissed. I hope it gets better, TikiSwiti.

Here:

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Beestie

It bothers me that there is no second-person plural pronoun.

Down here in the South, we have corrected this problem. Y'all should get with the program, already.

[DanaC]

We just use 'youse' amongst my lot.

[dar512]

Originally Posted by Kingswood

Thanks for the book recommendation. I will try to find a copy. How much coverage does the book give to the late Middle English period, especially the Great Vowel Shift and the Chancery Standard?

It's written for the layperson, so probably not a lot. It's been years since I read it in its entirety. Hence the "probably".

Originally Posted by Brianna

Ah. Someone is pissed. I hope it gets better, TikiSwiti.

Here:

Actually, yesterday was great. Thanks though!

[Happy Monkey]

Ghoti

[dar512]

Originally Posted by Kingswood

Thanks for the book recommendation. I will try to find a copy. How much coverage does the book give to the late Middle English period, especially the Great Vowel Shift and the Chancery Standard?

Ok, I just checked. Middle English as a whole gets about 45 pages. It does cover the great vowel shift which gets four pages. I don't see "Chancery Standard" in the index. But as I said this is book for general consumption, so it may just not be mentioned by name.

[Kingswood]

Originally Posted by Beestie

Ancient.
Sufficient.

There are several more that I'll remember later.

The "I before E except after C" rule is only intended to cover those words where the vowel sound is the same as in BEE. The number of words with this vowel sound are not much more than the five I listed plus derivatives, 23 in all.

The sequence -cie- occurs in about twice as many words. I'll save you time, as I have a word list that I can check quickly. Again, I will list root words only.

ancient, concierge, conscience, deficient, efficient, fancier, financier, glacier, hacienda, intricacies, omniscient, sufficient, prescient, proficient, science, scientist, society, species.

That list includes a variety of vowel sounds. Also in that list are several words where a weak vowel has been assimilated by the preceding consonant and changed the pronunciation of the consonant (ancient, efficient etc).

[Kingswood]

Originally Posted by dar512

Middle English as a whole gets about 45 pages. It does cover the great vowel shift which gets four pages. I don't see "Chancery Standard" in the index. But as I said this is book for general consumption, so it may just not be mentioned by name.

The Chancery Standard was a language reform that was introduced during the reign of King Henry V in the early 15th century to provide a standardized language for use across all of England by the bureaucracy (called the chancery). When it was introduced, English had several dialect forms and it was sometimes difficult for someone who spoke one dialect to read something written in another. The Chancery Standard was mainly based on the London and East Midland dialects but sometimes used other dialect forms.

One of the most noticeable features of the Chancery Standard that still persists today are the third person pronouns they, them and their. Before the Chancery Standard, the usual form of these pronouns in London English was he, hem and hir. As these could be confused with singular pronouns, the dialect forms from the North of England (where the dialect was heavily influence by Norse immigrants) were selected for the Chancery Standard to clarify written communication.

[Kingswood]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Ghoti

Or in Klingon: ghotI'