Orlando

[sexobon]

I'm waiting for someone to try to tie George Zimmerman into this.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Uygur has a good understanding of the problem, unfortunately he, like everyone else, has no solution.

[Undertoad]

But make no mistake, let's be absolutely clear about one thing:

When tragedy hits, Americans stand divided.

it's a WaPo editorial headline... but I for one agree

[gvidas]

No solution, but here's a step towards one: let's study the problem.

One side says the best way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun. Another side says the fewer guns there are around, the less guns get used in crimes of opportunity.

We're stuck in a monotonous argument because neither side can reference an authority that the other side acknowledges.

Let's allow federal money to go to researchers looking at gun violence. Let's start keeping track, on a national level, of gun-related deaths. Let's look at all the possible causes, and all the possible solutions, and fucking do something.

If it turns out that the best way to reduce gun deaths is to require everyone to carry a gun all the time, then, fine. I'm down with that. But convince me with something other than stories that pick at my own fear and insecurity.

Step #1, right? Admit you have a problem?

[xoxoxoBruce]

People argue over cause/solution, but I think Cenk Uygur(post #17) nailed it with cultural problem. Of course that’s sort of an umbrella over the reasons being argued, but also includes the arguing itself.
Later I read on Cracked(biased but thought worthy), about Reagan.

It all started when he was just the lowly governor of California. In 1967, he signed the Lanterman-Petris-Short Act into law, which made forced institutionalization or medication of people who might be suffering from mental illness significantly more difficult. This followed years of the state moving patients in state-run mental health facilities to group care facilities and boarding houses and such. Or if you'd prefer the elevator pitch version: They kicked the mentally ill out of hospitals and made it harder for them to get back in, should the need ever arise in the future.
~snip~
The statistics regarding mentally ill people in the criminal justice system followed suit, increasing by 50 percent within a year.

~snip~

When Reagan took over as president, that was literally one of the first things he did. Jimmy Carter signed the Mental Health Systems Act in 1980 with the intention of fixing our rapidly failing mental health system. Ronald Reagan repealed it in 1981, opting to give the money to states as block grants that could be spent on whatever the hell they want.

~snip~

One of the first mass shootings I remember hearing about took place in San Ysidro, California in 1984, when a man named James Huberty walked into a McDonald's and opened fire, killing 21 people and injuring 19 more. It was the worst mass shooting committed by a lone perpetrator in the nation's history at the time. Tragically, in the weeks after the massacre, it was revealed that Huberty had called a mental health facility just a day prior and attempted to have himself committed. A receptionist took a message and promised he'd get a call back. That call never came.

Beyond an opportunity to bash Reagan, which I admit gives me pleasure, it bolsters my own opinion…
Every mass shooter is nuts or they wouldn’t be one. I order to prompt their inner shooter to act, they convince it they have a cause justifying action. Also, they must use a cause currently in vogue, like Islam or LGBT, to persuade the world they are heroes and not just nuts.

That said, the only solution I see is everyone participate in rational discussion of solutions. I give that odds of slim to none.

[John Sellers]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

People argue over cause/solution, but I think Cenk Uygur(post #17) nailed it with cultural problem.

Yep, I'd rather watch Cenk, Ana, and the rest of the Turks than the mainstream news.

Did anyone happen to see Cenk's interview with Bernie Sanders?

[xoxoxoBruce]

No, didn't see it. But remember watching only Turks gives you only one perspective.

[Gravdigr]

Let's start keeping track, on a national level, of gun-related deaths.

[Gravdigr]

Here's one, it two seconds of Googling. Less, actually.

[gvidas]

Originally Posted by Gravdigr

Here's one, it two seconds of Googling. Less, actually.

Point taken, grav, but it's kind of piecemeal and based mostly on media reports.

From their methodologies page:

To that end we utilize automated queries, manual research through over 1,500 media sources, aggregates, police blotters, police media outlets and other sources daily.

I think the data collection could be more efficient, less roundabout. But it's really about the research. We put a couple dudes on the moon. We built a civilization where you can download porn to a personal device just about anywhere, any time, that you want. Even in the woods. But this is fundamentally unsolvable? The best problem-solving resources that we can bring to bear is a mashup of talking heads on TV and pseduoanonymous online comments?

[tw]

Give an adult who is a child a big gun. What will he do? Act just like a child. We know from his wife that this 'child' was even having temper tantrums. Some call it metal illness. Maybe. But he did exactly what any adult who is a child may do.

Because he was so successful, stock price of gun manufacturers increased 8% and 6%. Stock market knows adults who are children (and they are in large numbers) must duplicate what the other bully did.

We know everyone needs a military assault weapon that only has one purpose - to attack and kill as many as fast as possible. It does not even have a defensive purpose. It cannot be used even in hunting. It cannot even be used on many (if not most) ranges because bullets are too big, too fast, and too powerful. But an adult who is a child knows a bigger gun and bigger penis means he is man. Adult who is a child.

Same people are in such great numbers as to also be inspired by the hate promoted by Trump. Number of adults who are still children is quite large. They cannot be trusted to drive a car without a license and training. But should have every right at any time to have assault weapons and howitzers - even without any training. Otherwise those children might have another temper tantrum.

[Clodfobble]

Here's the thing. Much like Trump opponents, the arguments against are orthogonal to the arguments for.

The opposite side of "Guns kill people" is NOT "No, they don't." Instead, it's "Yes, but the minute we give them up the government will become a dictatorship." Now, you can say that argument is stupid (and it is,) but the way to convince the big Second Amendment folks is not to keep pointing out how senselessly dangerous guns are. That's a necessary evil in their minds. The trick is to convince them that their little AR-15 is NOT the deciding factor in whether Hitler, Jr. takes over America.

[xoxoxoBruce]

The trick is to convince them that their little AR-15 is NOT the deciding factor in whether Hitler, Jr. takes over America.

Mine is, because it's a rare 7.62 x 39, not some puny .223 round like the Army guys. I know because I've got a lot of Army guys, Mom's always telling me to pick up and put in the box, before Pop steps on one with his bare feet. I'll save 'Merica from that Nazi nogoodnik.

I must be a child because tw and Robocop are the only adults in the whole country.

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I must be a child because tw and Robocop are the only adults in the whole country.

Clearly you are not a child. Look at the size of your penis. Amazing what .223 and and 7.62 mm rounds can do to upgrade a child into a man. Since only a man can put quarter inch holes in other people.

Clearly you are safer because your penis and holes are bigger. Size matters.

Real men have brains - and use them.

[Gravdigr]

Ok, which would better?

To have a big penis with a little hole, or a small penis with a really big hole?

How'd we get to penis holes again?