WikiLeaks

[Big Sarge]

So Bradley is going to be Chelsea? We have to pay for his hormones??

[DanaC]

Don't see why not.

Bradley was already seeking counselling for problems related to gender identity before all this stuff happened. Seems, from reports I've read, that he was (and she is) suffering, psychologically, by remaining a gender that she does not feel.

I don't see why hormones in that instance are any more outrageous than psych meds for someone with a purely psychiatric condition whilst in prison.

She is going to be in there for a long time. The State and military will have its pound of flesh for what she did. There is no reason to add further suffering on top of the incarceration and privations of prison life.

[glatt]

It will be interesting to see what happens. The Army has never done that before, and I don't see them doing any favors for her. But gays are now allowed in the military, and there has to be a first time for everything. Maybe somebody else will be the first, and then after that ice is broken, Manning will get hormones in a few years. She's got nothing but time.

[footfootfoot]

Chelsea Womanning

[DanaC]

Hehehehe.

Clever bastard.

[Big Sarge]

Oh well. If you can't afford gender reassignment in the civilian world, you can always join the military and become a traitor.

In the meanwhile, the rest of the veterans whom served honorably have to suffer long delays in getting their treatment and meds. Next time I run out of medicine, I can comfort myself knowing the BOP will ensure the traitor gets his hormones on time.

[Lamplighter]

Why should we consider gender change and hormone treatment any
different than cancer and the appropriate meds for any other person.

Sarge, remember the timeline...
Manning was serving under DADT.
Although Obama talked about it in 2008 and 2009, he did not actually
sign off on the first stage of the repeal of DADT until 12/22/10
... months after Manning had already been arrested.

It is non sequitur to connect gender change and the actions that lead to Manning's arrest.
And certainly, Manning's treatment in BOP is not going to have one
iota of effect on the treatment of any other military personnel.

In fact, it might be argued that Manning's gender change and hormone replacement
may well benefit others already in military who need similar services.

[Big Sarge]

I have no problems with the transgendered and I try to be as understanding and supportive as I can. My problem with Manning is he betrayed his country. The government doesn't have the money to take of the veteran's who served honorably. If Manning doesn't receive his meds, it is considered discrimination plus cruel and unusual punishment. Meanwhile, the other veterans are told to stand at the end of the line. No one will be on TV denouncing cruel and unusual punishment for them.

My issue with Manning is he betrayed his country and shouldn't be rewarded

[DanaC]

Couple of points: Manning is being punished through incarceration in a tough prison environment for many years. Giving somebody the treatment and healthcare they need, whilst they are in your charge is not a reward.

Your government does have the money to take care of veterans who have served their country honorably. The reason there are lines and lines of veterans having to wait months and years for their treatment to be covered is because of administrative and systemic problems, not a lack of cash. Be angry that the cash they have is being wasted on an inefficient and badly administrated system.

It is not one or the other. Bradley Manning's treatment in prison has no bearing on whether or when a veteran in distress is covered for VA treatment.

Lastly, lots of people have been on TV denouncing the unacceptable delays in veteran care. I live in the UK and even I know about the warehouse sized rooms full of unprocessed paper applications, and the ongoing saga of trying to get two different computerised systems to interact.

Again, it is not one or the other. People can support the moral obligation for the state and army to take care of those serving prison sentences and also support the moral obligation for state and army to take care of the veterans who serve and served in the military.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by Big Sarge

... My issue with Manning is he betrayed his country and shouldn't be rewarded

Naw, they're just doing that 'cause they think Snowden will come back if there's a WikiWife waiting for him in prison. It's a gov'ment strategy.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by Big Sarge

My issue with Manning is he betrayed his country and shouldn't be rewarded

My issue with the country is that it betrayed Manning, and will just continue to hurt the country by operating poorly.

I've known very many M-to-F TSs: best friends with one, good friends with two others, and had many many acquaintances. The virtual community has always been a place for them to feel comfortable, and for some, to live as women on a trial basis. Choose an appropriately sexed handle and you're good to go.

As a group, I find them to be highly interesting people before and after the transition. During, however, they are not exactly the most even-keeled folk. They will be highly emotional and sometimes irrational. And while one should have compassion for people facing a... ridiculously complicated and personal matter, challenging their deepest personal psychological condition...

They should not have security clearances that allow them access to all of the country's most important secret communications.

Much as the Army shouldn't send a soldier with a broken arm to carry a rifle into harm's way, the Army never should have put Bradley Manning in that position. They knew he was a troubled person. They apparently didn't care.

Manning testified that he spent hour after hour in the Wikileaks IRC channel, debating various Wikileaks issues. Really? Did the Army know that, and what it entailed? They should have said "I'm sorry Private (!) Manning, you will have some sort of desk duty but your Intel access is closed."

The US Army did this. Or rather, did nothing. It's like leaving Bill Buckner in to play first base even though he's injured. You don't blame Buckner when he can't field a simple ground ball. You blame the manager for not bringing in a defensive replacement. (Fuck you, John McNamara)

[Lamplighter]

They should not have security clearances that allow them access to all of the country's most important secret communications.

... unless you have some source other than your own limited experience,
I have seen nothing in the lay press to connect "they/them",
or specifically Manning to any decision to pass information to Wikileaks.

Likewise, to try to connect the military to "They apparently didn't care" is just plain silly.

[Undertoad]

I'm sure I don't understand your objection.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

... They will be highly emotional and sometimes irrational. And while one should have compassion for people facing a... ridiculously complicated and personal matter, challenging their deepest personal psychological condition...

~They should not have security clearances that allow them access to all of the country's most important secret communications.~ ...

Exactly. "They" can be any category of service member experiencing that level of stress: those going through a messy divorce, devastating illness of an immediate family member, crisis of conscience, crisis of faith, PTSD, ... etc. Gender transitioning service members should be no exception. No one has a right to a security clearance. It's a privilege (like a driver's license) granted at the discretion of the classifying authority, upgraded or downgraded as appropriate, and access can be immediately suspended by local commanders any time they feel the need arises. One of the ways in which the need arises is when a service member gets so wound up in their unfolding personal dilemma(s) that they develop an indifference to their job.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

... the Army never should have put Bradley Manning in that position. They knew he was a troubled person. They apparently didn't care. ...

Au contraire Souscrapaud, the Army was forced to accept that aspect of Manning without reservation by the governing body politic. The Army knows that the young adults it seeks come with a variety of issues including various identity crises. Opening the door to a wider variety of them, without additional screening, opened a can of worms for local commanders. It seems that Manning's local commander decided to share the wealth.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

... The US Army did this. Or rather, did nothing. ...

The Army shared its bequeathed can of worms with its Commander in Chief. I hope he enjoyed them.

[Lamplighter]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I'm sure I don't understand your objection.

My objection is to attempts made directly, by inference, or dim-witted humor,
to submit a causal relationship between gender-ID and Manning's actions.

As far as I know now, only three potential reasons for Manning's actions
were discussed in Steve Fishman's 2011 NY Magazine (11 pages)... here.

No one has (yet) said or implied that $ had anything to do with his motivations.
By the FIshman chronologically, the GLBT-bullying by his army room mates
was a serious issue that started in the U.S. early in Manning's enlistment
... long before DADT was repealed. [pg 1]

It was later (2009) in Iraq, as I read it, and completely independent of his gender-ID issues,
Manning became aware of secret and illegal actions in the war, leading to him take such videos
to his superior officer, but then being rebuked. [pg 4]

It was even later that Manning got in touch with Wikileaks, and described his motivations as honorable:

Manning thought of himself as honorable, even heroic
—“I guess I’m too idealistic,” he said. “i want people to see the truth
… regardless of who they are … because without information,
you cannot make informed decisions as a public.”

Lastly, Manning was arrested just 4 days after a colleague informed the FBI.
So unless the argument is that his military superiors already recognized that
Manning was sending documents to Wikileaks, it does not fly to say
"they apparently didn't care".